End game pve is incredibly gatekept and lacks player population

[garkos.2973]

Endgame is gated, imagine you re new. 

You will see lfgs,  but they all need 20k ufe for fractal cms.

 

I m lucky to have kp for raids, but fractal cm can only be done with a guild that is interested in them.

I almost never see fractal cm training runs in contrary to raid lfg.

Almost no new player will ever experience them

 

[Aurora.9347]

I will vouch for a few bits of this thread by extending STABILITY is gate keeping everything, due to the amount of stability some classes provides it completely excludes the ones that barely have any, now by no means i am saying to nerf the classes that have that much stab nor am i saying i have a solution but the problem is there, where stability seems to be the main factor decision to choose a support nowadays, i tried joiuning as a heal alac scourge in several strikes group but few groups let me do it because no stability, and yes i agree stability makes everything in sanely easier and faster due to not losing time dodging or with other annoying animations, but it also feels like its breaking end game in a way... like people complaint about the powercreep of dps, what about boons, whgere stability is literally that 1 boon factor that decides the best supports.. i seen groups kicking specific support for lacking stability, but anyway just a reminder that this is a big problem dont have a solution but at this point if u removed stability i couldnt care less, when people make a big deal of something and misuse it i see no reason to give them such a thing... but this is jus me...

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, garkos.2973 said:

Endgame is gated, imagine you re new. 

You will see lfgs,  but they all need 20k ufe for fractal cms.

 

I m lucky to have kp for raids, but fractal cm can only be done with a guild that is interested in them.

I almost never see fractal cm training runs in contrary to raid lfg.

Almost no new player will ever experience them

 

In regards to CMs, that is true. Raids have more of an open support structure with training discords and communities.

The pros and cons of fractals is the more open nature with less of an organized community behind them (even more so since raid and fractal builds have become mostly the same) at the expense of mass support structures.

At the same time, with their smaller size, many guilds run fractals with CMs and are open to train new players. That's also the most reliable way to get into fractal CMs, or run personal trainings until one is good enough (and accumulated enough KP, 3-5k UFE is usually the bottom, aka 25-40 days of 3 CM clears) to join other players LFGs.

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, garkos.2973 said:

Endgame is gated, imagine you re new. 

You will see lfgs,  but they all need 20k ufe for fractal cms.

 

I m lucky to have kp for raids, but fractal cm can only be done with a guild that is interested in them.

I almost never see fractal cm training runs in contrary to raid lfg.

Almost no new player will ever experience them

 

Yeah I think this whole thread only holds true for fractals. 

[Biziut.3594]

15 hours ago, garkos.2973 said:

Endgame is gated, imagine you re new. 

You will see lfgs,  but they all need 20k ufe for fractal cms.

 

I m lucky to have kp for raids, but fractal cm can only be done with a guild that is interested in them.

I almost never see fractal cm training runs in contrary to raid lfg.

Almost no new player will ever experience them

 

 

10 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Yeah I think this whole thread only holds true for fractals. 

Fractals are no raids where sometimes you need to place markers or need a special roles or have a commander tag. You only need four other ppls so everyone is perfectly able to organize such training themselves without special preperation. Most ppls that ask for kp's, already did their fair share of training runs, if they were able to get there, you are also able to do that without someone carry your hand. Be it with pugs or with guild. Hell 100cm at this moment is doable solo as some you tuber showed, I personally managed to duo it with my friend. So once again I am stating that the only gatekeeping is within yourself, not in LFG.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Biziut.3594

[mikko.4013]

20 hours ago, garkos.2973 said:

Endgame is gated, imagine you re new. 

You will see lfgs,  but they all need 20k ufe for fractal cms.

I m lucky to have kp for raids, but fractal cm can only be done with a guild that is interested in them.

I almost never see fractal cm training runs in contrary to raid lfg.

Almost no new player will ever experience them

 

You are talking about UFE, so I suppose your server is EU based.

I don't know what time you checked fractal LFG, but during prime time (around 19:00 20:00 CEST), no-UFE/low-UFE LFG are not rare.
I started CMs with PUGs, and 0kUFE. UFE stacks fast, and you can then upgrade your LFG requirements.

This is how I see UFE's scale :
- 0kUFE - 10kUFE are training runs
- 10kUFE - 20kUFE should be "decent runs"
- 20kUFE - 30kUFE should be "experienced runs"
- over 30kUFE are experienced+ runs, with much less healing or no healer, and advanced speed strat

My advice : learn how to play a support class, and make your OWN LFG. If you are needed, make the rules YOURS.
I play quick Celestial / Seraph / Viper FB in fractals.

Edited July 30, 2023 by mikko.4013

[rotten.9753]

16 hours ago, garkos.2973 said:

You will see lfgs,  but they all need 20k ufe for fractal cms.

You mostly see those kinds of reqs because teams like that take much more time to fully form.

[Nimris.3781]

4 hours ago, mikko.4013 said:

You are talking about UFE, so I suppose your server is EU based.

I don't know what time you checked fractal LFG, but during prime time (around 19:00 20:00 CEST), no UFE/low UFE LFG are not rare.
I started CMs with PUGs, and 0kUFE. UFE stacks fast, and you can then upgrade your LFG requirements.

This is how I see UFE's scale :
- 0kUFE - 10kUFE are training runs
- 10kUFE - 20kUFE should be "decent runs"
- 20kUFE - 30kUFE should be "experienced runs"
- over 30kUFE are experienced+ runs, with much less healing or no healer, and advanced speed strat

My advice : learn how to play a support class, and make your OWN LFG. If you are needed, make the rules YOURS.
I play quick Celestial / Seraph / Viper FB in fractals.

your numbers seem inflated to me by a lot. 10k training runs? most groups are 5-10k and are definitely not training runs. 1 month of training is enough ( so about 3-4k ufe)

groups i consider "likely to wipe here and there" - aka semi training group, would be anything under 3k.  5k+ is already decent groups that rarely wipe (once or twice at most, sometimes none),  10k are experienced runs doing all skips etc. but running hfb and finally 15-20k are almost always no heal run also doing all skips.    fun fact is that groups above 20k often ends up toxic and not as experienced as you would think.

but aside from numbers i agree. i see quite often low kp groups, even as low as 1k on lfg and being alac/hfb will help a lot in getting into group.

 

4 hours ago, Biziut.3594 said:

 

Fractals are no raids where sometimes you need to place markers or need a special roles or have a commander tag. You only need four other ppls so everyone is perfectly able to organize such training themselves without special preperation. Most ppls that ask for kp's, already did their fair share of training runs, if they were able to get there, you are also able to do that without someone carry your hand. Be it with pugs or with guild. Hell 100cm at this moment is doable solo as some you tuber showed, I personally managed to duo it with my friend. So once again I am stating that the only gatekeeping is within yourself, not in LFG.

just to expand on this, fractals are no raids for 2 more reasons:

• everyone has to do their share of dps/cc and execute mechanics. this means you cant bring along 1 unexperienced person as he is likely to wipe you with doom etc. in case of most raids "burden" of encounter is not equal. you can easily leave 2-3 dps (sometimes even 50% of group) doing nothing beside dpsing (or even being dead...), still see the encounter and succeed slowly learning it. Also fractals get unproportionally harder the lower dps is (best example Ai and Arkk) as with low dps you have more and more of mechanics that could sometimes kill even experienced player but are skipped due to dps
• another minor reason is that experienced people often do fraks everyday and most of them dont feel like looking at AI for more than 10min a day, let alone 1 hour. raids are once a week, you can do full clear after reset and than chill training at the end of week regardless of success

as a result training group for fraks can spend 1h on Sunqua and still not complete it. personaly i dont do training groups for fraks on lfg because 

1. lack of voice ( much harder to guide players if you cant tell whats going on/correct mistakes on live) fraks are dynamic, writing takes time and you risk dying
2. high probability of no success for a big time investment (20 min for Skor + Art, than 1h horror on Arkk...)
3. i am already doing cm+t4 everyday so spending another hour or 2 in fraks on wiping over and over feels too much

but with that said, if anyone in guild asks for cms training i am willing to help and organize training.

i just dont actively look for new people so i can teach them. 😆

Edited July 30, 2023 by Nimris.3781

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

12 hours ago, mikko.4013 said:

- 0kUFE - 10kUFE are training runs

I think we found the creator of the "W1 Training HFB tank 10kp" groups.

Edited July 30, 2023 by IAmNotMatthew.1058

[mikko.4013]

20 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

your numbers seem inflated to me by a lot. 10k training runs? most groups are 5-10k and are definitely not training runs. 1 month of training is enough ( so about 3-4k ufe)

groups i consider "likely to wipe here and there" - aka semi training group, would be anything under 3k.  5k+ is already decent groups that rarely wipe (once or twice at most, sometimes none),  10k are experienced runs doing all skips etc. but running hfb and finally 15-20k are almost always no heal run also doing all skips.    fun fact is that groups above 20k often ends up toxic and not as experienced as you would think.

but aside from numbers i agree. i see quite often low kp groups, even as low as 1k on lfg and being alac/hfb will help a lot in getting into group.

Well, as I said, it is how I see it.

My personal experience is that under 10kUFE, people still miss lots of mechanics while doing subpar to average DPS. While you may not consider these people as a training party, I consider their skills in the training area (no offense meant, I know some people under 10kUFE can do pretty good, but they are not the majority).
About 15-20kUFE parties, I used to join their LFG 6 months ago. I have been doing daily CMs +T4 for a long time, 6 days a week, and no-healer capable parties were seldom (spoiler alert, I am the "healer", so I know exactly when my party is suffering, and when I will have to switch to a more defensive build).
Fun fact, I now PUG 30kUFE parties, and their average players are better than 20kUFE parties... but I usually can find 1 disappointing player per run.

To each his own.

As you understood, my point is that their are different skill levels, different expectations. To each player his own threshold, be it 3kUFE, 5kUFE, 10kUFE, 30kUFE, etc... as long as you are pro-active about forming your own LFG, you will have no problems starting CM fractals parties, even with zero/low kUFE.

12 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I think we found the creator of the "W1 Training HFB tank 10kp" groups.

Well, I was not talking about raids. As you do know, raid kps are not fractal UFEs. And I never asked for kp or UFE in MY training LFGs.
As I explained, I wrote "training" as "training level skilled". I was not clear enough, and I am sorry that you misunderstood my words.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

6 hours ago, mikko.4013 said:

Well, I was not talking about raids. As you do know, raid kps are not fractal UFEs. And I never asked for kp or UFE in MY training LFGs.
As I explained, I wrote "training" as "training level skilled". I was not clear enough, and I am sorry that you misunderstood my words.

I think you don't know the amount of UFE the game gives for Fractal CMs. Even 1000 UFE requires atleast 5 clears on ALL 4 CMs and you're here trying to tell us that anyone with less than 70 consecutive days of Fractal CM clears is considered "training level skilled". I guess when you make a Raid LFG you expect 200+KP as well for decent runs.

[Juan.6124]

On 7/29/2023 at 7:11 PM, garkos.2973 said:

Endgame is gated, imagine you re new. 

You will see lfgs,  but they all need 20k ufe for fractal cms.

 

I m lucky to have kp for raids, but fractal cm can only be done with a guild that is interested in them.

I almost never see fractal cm training runs in contrary to raid lfg.

Almost no new player will ever experience them

 

Make your own group for fractals. 

[iminxi.8514]

On 7/29/2023 at 4:16 AM, Nephalem.8921 said:

Isnt wvw just a 10min afk check reminder while you do other stuff on another screen?

like pve is a rehearsal of the same thing to get a token out of it?

 

[mikko.4013]

On 7/31/2023 at 7:11 PM, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I think you don't know the amount of UFE the game gives for Fractal CMs. Even 1000 UFE requires atleast 5 clears on ALL 4 CMs and you're here trying to tell us that anyone with less than 70 consecutive days of Fractal CM clears is considered "training level skilled". I guess when you make a Raid LFG you expect 200+KP as well for decent runs.

I think you have a different way to assess players skill level. 5 clears on all 4 CMs are clearly not sufficient to be called "experienced" to my standards. As I already said, and I have the feeling I am repeating myself, AS I SEE IT / IN MY OPINION / TO MY STANDARDS, these parties are rarely better than training level skilled.

I still do my dailies CM +T4, mostly with 30kUFE PUG parties. Sometimes I PUG 20kUFE, sometimes 10kUFE, and I can see the difference. If you can't see it, all good for you. If you are serious about fractals, you will realize that most people have very incomplete knowledge of mechanics, skips, and perform in a very average way.

Just agree that you have different standards. To each his own (remember ?).

And again, please don't try to guess anything about how I do raids... because I don't do raids. When you don't have any good arguments, don't try ad hominem arguments against me, it makes you look weak.

Edited August 2, 2023 by mikko.4013

[Kozumi.5816]

On 7/29/2023 at 1:33 PM, Athena.1735 said:

I will vouch for a few bits of this thread by extending STABILITY is gate keeping everything, due to the amount of stability some classes provides it completely excludes the ones that barely have any, now by no means i am saying to nerf the classes that have that much stab nor am i saying i have a solution but the problem is there, where stability seems to be the main factor decision to choose a support nowadays, i tried joiuning as a heal alac scourge in several strikes group but few groups let me do it because no stability, and yes i agree stability makes everything in sanely easier and faster due to not losing time dodging or with other annoying animations, but it also feels like its breaking end game in a way... like people complaint about the powercreep of dps, what about boons, whgere stability is literally that 1 boon factor that decides the best supports.. i seen groups kicking specific support for lacking stability, but anyway just a reminder that this is a big problem dont have a solution but at this point if u removed stability i couldnt care less, when people make a big deal of something and misuse it i see no reason to give them such a thing... but this is jus me...

Stability and super speed needed to be deleted 3 expacs ago.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

11 hours ago, mikko.4013 said:

I think you have a different way to assess players skill level. 5 clears on all 4 CMs are clearly not sufficient to be called "experienced" to my standards. As I already said, and I have the feeling I am repeating myself, AS I SEE IT / IN MY OPINION / TO MY STANDARDS, these parties are rarely better than training level skilled.

I still do my dailies CM +T4, mostly with 30kUFE PUG parties. Sometimes I PUG 20kUFE, sometimes 10kUFE, and I can see the difference. If you can't see it, all good for you. If you are serious about fractals, you will realize that most people have very incomplete knowledge of mechanics, skips, and perform in a very average way.

Just agree that you have different standards. To each his own (remember ?).

 5 clears are perfectly enough to be experienced, a training level person is someone who needs to be guided through content. Someone who has done something atleast 5 times can hold their own, that literally means it is not training level. The only CM where you can say that a single clear is not enough for the player to learn enough is Shattered, keep in mind, Fractal CMs are only a new layer of mechanics, not an entirely new encounter. 

11 hours ago, mikko.4013 said:

And again, please don't try to guess anything about how I do raids... because I don't do raids. When you don't have any good arguments, don't try ad hominem arguments against me, it makes you look weak.

And this is coming from the person saying anything below 10k UFE is training level and 10-20k is decent. 

[Krzysztof.5973]

11 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

 5 clears are perfectly enough to be experienced, a training level person is someone who needs to be guided through content. Someone who has done something atleast 5 times can hold their own, that literally means it is not training level. The only CM where you can say that a single clear is not enough for the player to learn enough is Shattered, keep in mind, Fractal CMs are only a new layer of mechanics, not an entirely new encounter. 

And this is coming from the person saying anything below 10k UFE is training level and 10-20k is decent. 

Well he is the one with 70k UFE and you with 520. Groups on 10k level vs. 50k groups are worlds apart. But calling 10k groups "training" is just silly. 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 hour ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Well he is the one with 70k UFE and you with 520. Groups on 10k level vs. 50k groups are worlds apart. But calling 10k groups "training" is just silly. 

And with that 520 I'm perfectly capable of explaining how each of the CMs(-Silent Surf, haven't played since) need to be done and even leading it. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

11 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Well he is the one with 70k UFE and you with 520. Groups on 10k level vs. 50k groups are worlds apart. But calling 10k groups "training" is just silly. 

i think this is exadurating quite a bit.

 

there's a ceiling to everything in this game and alot of players who think they're very good at the game simply aren't. for example i see alot of fractal god and dancing with demons players who do really good damage but have a poor grasp on fractal mechanics, and play very selfishly, so are overall a burden to the fractal group. likewise is see players with 10k+ufe who don't seem to understand how the challenge mote works and i have to explain it to them with like 1k.

 

for example, to this day i still have to explain to very experienced groups that ai's tornado reflects projectiles.

 

players in this thread are doing something called generalising, which is acting like all people are equal and can be judged by something like an arbitrary number, even though in reality those numbers can be gained by alot of dishonest methods. let's be clear, you can get carried hard in this game, even by a single player, outside of pvp, and as a result any experienced player has known since the game introduced achievement points that all arbitrary numbers are mostly useless.

 

with the current damage numbers its possible for even a single player to carry the old cms almost solo (someone even soloed cm100).

 

its very similar to the real world in this regard, for example how many assume that a person with several degrees and a high-paying job actually knows what they're doing even though in reality they have no clue and someone else does everything for them. let me ask a question; how many diamond legend players in wvw do you think could actually kill you 60%+ of the time in 1v1, and weren't just zerglings who karma trained?

 

but it takes years of playing 40+hours a week to get that rank, they must be insanely skilled! i mean, that's how it works, right?

 

there's also another issue: veteran players are tired and turn to playstyles and mannerisms that they really shouldn't out of exhaustion. sometimes its even a net negative to take them onto the group even though they can be nearly perfect when at their best, because as their best gets better over the years their worst also gets worse due to unavoidable burnout. this is the main reason i'd take someone with 520 over 70k.

Edited August 4, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Baseleader.4128]

There are always outliers, so yeah kp is far from a perfect system. But at the end of the day, experience does count for something and on average, high kp groups are simply better than low kp ones. If you join a 30k UFE group, you almost always one shot all CM bosses. Occasionally you might not and a low kp group might, that happens.

But if you really had to put your faith in a player, there is no way you're picking a guy with 520 UFE over a guy with 70k.

I often hear people say kp is meaningless, but it's not. It's flawed though. If you had to bet a million dollars on a group 1-shotting every fractal CM boss, there isnt a person in the world who bets on the 500 UFE group over the 70k one.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

3 hours ago, Baseleader.4128 said:

There are always outliers, so yeah kp is far from a perfect system. But at the end of the day, experience does count for something and on average, high kp groups are simply better than low kp ones. If you join a 30k UFE group, you almost always one shot all CM bosses. Occasionally you might not and a low kp group might, that happens.

But if you really had to put your faith in a player, there is no way you're picking a guy with 520 UFE over a guy with 70k.

I often hear people say kp is meaningless, but it's not. It's flawed though. If you had to bet a million dollars on a group 1-shotting every fractal CM boss, there isnt a person in the world who bets on the 500 UFE group over the 70k one.

the problem is once you wipe, how is the player with tons of killproof going to behave?

 

its become to the point that in recent listings for example on cm100 progression i'll see "don't join if you're easily tilted", "no ragequitting", "have patience for the encounter' and so on, because of burned out players not knowing how to stay at their best and not show their worst.

 

in my most recent challenge mote run, someone dropped this gem: "when did pve in this game become pvp?".

[mikko.4013]

On 8/3/2023 at 11:27 AM, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

 5 clears are perfectly enough to be experienced, a training level person is someone who needs to be guided through content. Someone who has done something atleast 5 times can hold their own, that literally means it is not training level. The only CM where you can say that a single clear is not enough for the player to learn enough is Shattered, keep in mind, Fractal CMs are only a new layer of mechanics, not an entirely new encounter.

As I said, and I am repeating myself again, "5 clears are peferctly enough to be experienced" is your point of view, and I don't share it. It seems that "experienced", "training-skilled" have different meanings for you and me, and I'm fine with that. To each his own, right ?

On 8/3/2023 at 11:27 AM, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

And this is coming from the person saying anything below 10k UFE is training level and 10-20k is decent. 

Yup, this is my point, and you are free to disagree about it. Feeling better now ? 🤣

By the way, I can't see how my personal skill-thresholds for fractals have anything to do with raids (which I don't do, again). Try better arguments, or maybe out of any decent arguments ?

On 8/4/2023 at 12:13 AM, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

And with that 520 I'm perfectly capable of explaining how each of the CMs(-Silent Surf, haven't played since) need to be done and even leading it. 

Yup, that's what I thought... you have close to zero experience in CMs, no offense meant, just facts.

Edited August 6, 2023 by mikko.4013

[mikko.4013]

20 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

But calling 10k groups "training" is just silly. 

For this, I will aknowledge that my words went overboard. But you get the idea about my "personal classification".

9 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

there's a ceiling to everything in this game and alot of players who think they're very good at the game simply aren't. for example i see alot of fractal god and dancing with demons players who do really good damage but have a poor grasp on fractal mechanics, and play very selfishly, so are overall a burden to the fractal group. likewise is see players with

I do agree with your post, globally.

KPs / UFEs /LIs or whatever, are an imperfect way to get an estimation of someone's skills.

Of course, you can have high KPs people which have low knowledge, low skills, and the opposite with low KPs people which have high knowledge, high skills.

But statistically, you will have more chance to get skilled people in high KPs LFG than in low KPs LFG. And that's the reason why people use KPs.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

24 minutes ago, mikko.4013 said:

Yup, that's what I thought... you have close to zero experience in CMs, no offense meant, just facts.

Figured the guy with the "if you haven't been doing CMs nonstop you're not decent"  mindset would say that. No offense, just facts.

[TexZero.7910]

Eh. Personally i don't think endgame is gatekept so much as people new to it set themselves up with some unrealistic expectations of joining any group they want without realizing those groups are allowed to set whatever standards they want to ensure their runs at the level they expect.
There's plenty of places with zero requirements and training that help you get started raiding and get the so called "KP's" so long as you're willing to put in the minimal amount of time asked of you.