Rune/relic new system poll

[otto.5684]

I wonder what people think of the new runes/relic system. While I think the concept is good, the removal of most 6th rune effect is atrocious.

[Dadnir.5038]

It just feel like they did it wrong.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

It's too early for me to give give a definitive opinion. Most relics are honestly underwhelming with a few interesting exception but even these exception looks kinda...meh. I expect Anet to add a lot more relic with hopefully better effect. 

 

 

[Mell.4873]

They have only half implemented it, we will get a relic for all core and elite specialisations. 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

The relic system is just way better then the rune system please don’t make us go back. I don’t understand how people can articulate defending a system in which you ignored 99.9% of it because the effect you want to play didn’t have the stats you needed.

Folks need to learn to differentiate between critiquing the relic effects (which is what most people have an issue with), and the system it’s embedded in.

Edited August 24, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Hard to say for now, we have like 10-15 viable relics and a lot of niche/gimmicky builds down. Kinda poor for "new expansion feature".
Hope they'll add new ones very soon.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

The relic system is just way better then the rune system please don’t make us go back. I don’t understand how people can articulate defending a system in which you ignored 99.9% of it because the effect you want to play didn’t have the stats you needed.

Folks need to learn to differentiate between critiquing the relic effects (which is what most people have an issue with), and the system it’s embedded in.

If they had implemented all previous sixth Rune effects (except Trapper, that thing can rot in the Domain of Anguish), than one could make arguments about the new system being comparable to before. But as it is right now, it simply is missing too much to be considerable equal to (or better than) before.

And given that the system change literally took away people's play styles, complaining about that is a valid thing to do.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If they had implemented all previous sixth Rune effects (except Trapper, that thing can rot in the Domain of Anguish), than one could make arguments about the new system being comparable to before. But as it is right now, it simply is missing too much to be considerable equal to (or better than) before.

And given that the system change literally took away people's play styles, complaining about that is a valid thing to do.

This.

All the previous unique 6th rune effects should have become relics.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

24 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If they had implemented all previous sixth Rune effects (except Trapper, that thing can rot in the Domain of Anguish), than one could make arguments about the new system being comparable to before. But as it is right now, it simply is missing too much to be considerable equal to (or better than) before.

And given that the system change literally took away people's play styles, complaining about that is a valid thing to do.

Such is the nature of removals. Believe me, i don't like getting 40 out of the 100 relics we were supposed to receive either, but they DID say they will roll out the rest over the year. There's really no reason to complain about this particular thing because it's not even a thing...

What people should be talking about are the relic effects, and critiquing their mechanics so that they are better. Instead we have pointless complaining and pitch forking to get back an old and terrible system all because they didn't get their entire product this very instant right now, even though they said that you wouldn't get it instantly about a month back.

Btw, if you think people went off this hard over runes nobody ever used, imagine what would happen when you actually remove something as centrally connected to every build like quickness and alacrity.

Edited August 24, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Fueki.4753]

39 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Such is the nature of removals. Believe me, i don't like getting 40 out of the 100 relics we were supposed to receive either, but they DID say they will roll out the rest over the year. There's really no reason to complain about this particular thing because it's not even a thing...

If they have plans to release the other effects as relics later, they should have waited with releasing the system, especially with the legendary Relic only coming out later.

That way, releasing the whole package (System, all Runes turned into Relics, legendary Relics) later would have resulting in far less negative feedback.

But instead, they released it in a state that almost feels like it was meant to intentionally harvest negative feedback.

45 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

What people should be talking about are the relic effects, and critiquing their mechanics so that they are better. Instead we have pointless complaining and pitch forking to get back an old and terrible system all because they didn't get their entire product this very instant right now, even though they said that you wouldn't get it instantly about a month back.

You can't split the issue of missing effects from the system change. They are intrinsically linked, they are one and the same issue. The system change literally is the reason many playstyles have been broken down or even completely destroyed.

It's a valid action for people to complain about the literal reason that negatively impacted their experience in the game.

48 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Btw, if you think people went off this hard over runes nobody ever used, imagine what would happen when you actually remove something as centrally connected to every build like quickness and alacrity.

All the pet-summoning Rune effects, which were used by many, MANY people in open world, are gone.

The Rune of Strength effect is gone. The Rune of the Wurm effect is gone. The Rune of Fireworks effect is gone.

Unless I missed it, even the Rune of the Scholar effect is gone, which was one of the most-used runes for META-chasers.

This isn't only about random "runes nobody ever used". Many of the commonly used runes' sixth effects are gone.

Again, Arenanet intentionally left these beloved effects out and knew they'd harvest negative fedback.

Getting them back later and having to suffer their absence now is bad for the game and many players.

I would not even be surprised, if this left people feel sour enough to actually stop logging in.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

14 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

You can't split the issue of missing effects from the system change. They are intrinsically linked, they are one and the same issue.

Uhh what? They aren't intrinsically linked... The individual Relic's mechanics, and the system their embedded in (a separation of the effect from the stat) are two distinguishable things, and that distinction exists because there are important differences between the Relic system, and just the Rune system...Such as the ability to mix and match stats with unique effects.

Here's an example bro...Say I didn't like the Relic system...and the choices were to either go back to the previous system, or to just wait to get the remaining relics :

The previous system only has 99 choices you could make. Where as the Relic system (currently) has 99x40 choices you can make. If I said "Lets go back" rather than saying "ya I'll wait" then not only are you shorting yourself of 3800 choices, your shorting yourself of 9700 possible choices in the future.

This lapse of judgment is the deciding factor between getting 99 choices vs 9700 choices. You were saying playstyles were important right? that's 9600 possible playstyles your going to be screwing the game over, pitch-forking a return to the old system.

Like I said, the topic should be about relic critique plane and simple. All other arguments or justification for the old system are moot for this reason.

Edited August 24, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Vidit.7108]

PvE player here with only that perspective., I think the change to runes was somewhat successful in that there is rune choices that fit into the gaps of power builds better than before. The condition side of things looks to have actually maybe narrowed. But we're still looking at fewer than 12 or so runes being important, though once the gear optimizer is back up we could see more than that.

On relics, the system has failed to really deliver on build diversity, before in the old system condis didn't really have much choice on the bonus effect so in that respect this could only have been an improvement and an improvement it was (scourge is nuts right now). But it looks like one or two (no more than 4) relics are best in slot there.  Scholar has been replaced by thief pretty simply on all power builds and ironically it's a little harder to upkeep the relic of the thief on a thief than on other classes. Optimistically between power and condi there is about 6 or so relics that are really good; there is maybe then also 10 other relics that are kind of potentially non-selfish group help options that could be interesting, but that's really hard to determine in a PUG situation and I'm not planning on carrying around 10 relics in my inventory.  For healers there would have been some interesting choices there because some healer's have their weaknesses covered by a relic, however a lot of them also needed the healing bonus since they're overall healing is also weaker. Heal Herald seems like the biggest winner there. 

They're not 1-1 converting 6th rune bonuses to relics for the most part, so I'm not really willing to make the prediction that this situation will change much with future updates. Their track record of "we'll do x later" is spotty at best so I wouldn't be surprised to have fewer than 100 relics by the end of next year. It's not like if this is the meta for the next 6 years that it's in a bad spot though it's just not that big an improvement. There is worse things that could have happened than being stuck with thief relic (and maybe that one spoiler relic) for power damage. I didn't expect to like the rune/relic change and have ended up being indifferent to it. 
 

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Here's an example bro...Say I didn't like the Relic system...and the choices were to either go back to the previous system, or to just wait to get the remaining relics

They way I see it, Arenanet had the following choices:

1) Wait until the system is complete with all the effects in place, so that everyone can transition to a system that retains how they want to play.

2) Release it prematurely and risk degrading (or for some even ruining) a lot of players enjoyment in playing the game.

Choice 1 would likely not have evoked much (if any) negative feedback, because it doesn't get in the way of how people like to play the game, while also allowing for better customization.

Choice 2 on the other hand was guaranteed to evoke large amounts of negative feedback, because it was guaranteed to worsen (or completely) ruining the game for many players. And there is no way Arenanet didn't know it would happen.

They literally had to choose between letting players play as happy as before or worsen their experience(even if only temporary).

It is not a matter how many Relics there are released. If there's no Relic a player enjoys to use and the Rune effect he/she liked using, his/her experience is worse.

And all that could have been prevented by waiting to release the system until it has been completed. Other parts of this "mini" expansion already are delayed until later episodes. This system should have been one of them.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[trunks.5249]

i like it however i do not like that one they nerfed  them and two that they deleted a lot of them. i want my rock dog back

[SleepyBat.9034]

I like the new system but a lot of the new relics are quite underwhelming.

[DeanBB.4268]

I like the theory of the new system, but am underwhelmed and disappointed with the relic offerings so far.

[Leo G.4501]

6 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

It's too early for me to give give a definitive opinion. Most relics are honestly underwhelming with a few interesting exception but even these exception looks kinda...meh. I expect Anet to add a lot more relic with hopefully better effect. 

 

 

I'm in this ballpark. Wait and see as things are fixed to better represent their goals with the system (I doubt they are going to revert).

To me, some relics seem way better than others. With rune sets, you can kinda get away with that by altering the stats and effects of the other rune bonuses. How does 5sec of Resistance after using an elite skill (30sec icd) compare to straight up 66% movement speed while you have swiftness?

[Leo G.4501]

1 hour ago, trunks.5249 said:

i like it however i do not like that one they nerfed  them and two that they deleted a lot of them. i want my rock dog back

Watch they add a "familiar" slot or something in the next season of the expansion so everyone can have a rock dog or a parrot pop in to give you some might.

[DeanBB.4268]

Another negative point is the number of relics with  limitations, such as skill types only available to limited professions, ie Shout or Cantrip. That prohibits 4 or 5 professions from using that relic.

[Gendalfs.7521]

Im waiting for some cool person to test out all relics and make video faq about them. Description of relics are very vague. No area, no duration.

[Dadnir.5038]

6 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Folks need to learn to differentiate between critiquing the relic effects (which is what most people have an issue with), and the system it’s embedded in.

No, it doesn't have anything to do with the relic effects which can be anything, the issue is that the idea behind the change that was done is sound but the execution is extremly lacking.

• There are still to many runesets amongst which 80% will likely never see any use in any content.
• The passive 25% movement speed that actually deserved to be given as an effect to a relic have somehow be kept on the few lackluster runesets that had it.
• General boons and condition duration still havent been replaced by concentration and expertise on those runesets (8 years that they should have done that already!)
• Individual specific CC duration, boons duration and condition duration should have been handled by relics not by runesets.

On relics, specifically:

• Half of them have effect that are way to niche, with few profession being able to trigger those effects.
• Amongst the remaining ones, some basically do the same thing which is redundancy (for example, aristocracy and scourge basically do the same thing but aristocracy is just the better option for 95% of the builds)
• Other are needlessly circumvulated (Example: "Activate a signet to gain a signet that will be consumed for an effect upon using a signet". The relic is already worth it's own meme with that).
• Lastly, some bring back mechanisms that would be better left taking the dust (Example: leaving consumable bundle on the floor. The mechanism failed on revenant, it failed on scourge, I don't even thing it's not failing on engineer... It's bound to fail on relics! Come on, it feel like the devs don't learn from their mistakes and that's what feel the worst as a player, that's part of what make me frown upon a rework that would be very good on paper.)

It's not just that relics effects are worth criticing (and they sure are), it's that, as a whole, the rework is disappointing on to many levels. It's a wasted opportunity to make thing "better" (not "stronger"). It just feel like they've done it wrong!

[Drag You Down.2615]

I think the idea is really good, so I voted like. BUT! I totally agree with the points ppl mentioned before.

To me, there are several things that makes the release of relic system not as effective as the devs may expect.

1. The effects of relics. I mean, 52 should be a decent number, but how come most of them are useless. There effects are either very weak, or hard to trigger, or too similar to another. This means that relics cannot cover 100% of ppl's combat needs, probably not even 75%.

2. The effects of runes. Runes become very dull now. I mean most of them have very similar effects, like many runes have EXACTLY the same stats for the first 5 runes, with a slight change of the last rune. It is not very different if you have the last rune as a toughness or vitality bonus, because most dps will still choose power and condi, healers will still choose healing and concen. Now they are way too similar.

3. Some odd situations. For example, HAM with Med Kit. It cannot trigger any relics with healing skill or boon applications. Because med kit is not a healing skill and your mech's boon application will not count towards your own boon application. This makes HAM very weird because you have no relic to use. 

Another odd situation is that, there are way too many relics triggered by elite skills. Some of them do scale with CD, some of them don't. This makes the build combinations very limited, and balance will be hard. For example, Relic of the Zephyrite, will have 4 pulses when using the elite with 0 CD, yes, I am talking about Mortar Kit. And you have 7 pulses when using the elite with 90 secs CD. I don't really understand your scaling here. The relics like Relic of the Ice, which don't have scaling, are just more problematic with this balance issue. This problem was not a problem because there are very few runes trigged by elite skills, but now you have 12, 12 out of 52, 23.1% of the relics need elite skills. ARE YOU SERIOUS?

Again, I feel like Anet designers don't like testing their ideas, this is very dangerous in professional field. You are lucky that this is a game design, if it is industrial product design... This will not end well.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Drag You Down.2615

[Drag You Down.2615]

Some types of effects works really well, I should mention. Not the relics themselves, but this TYPE.

Like:

Relic of the Warrior,

Relic of Speed,

Relic of Mercy,

Relic of Dwayna,

Relic of Antitoxin (This one may be controversial but the concept is good enough.)

Relic of the Thief

Relic of Fractal

Relic of Akeem

Relic of Lyhr

Relic of Mabon

Those types have wider use for most professions, and that is what you should focus on. Easy to proc, easy to use.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Drag You Down.2615

[coro.3176]

Players don't like "on-elite-skill" effects. I don't know if the devs have data on this, but anecdotally, I never saw anyone use these runes before the update, so I'm not sure why they thought it was a good idea to make a huge swathe of the relic table devoted to them.

[Leo G.4501]

9 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

Players don't like "on-elite-skill" effects. I don't know if the devs have data on this, but anecdotally, I never saw anyone use these runes before the update, so I'm not sure why they thought it was a good idea to make a huge swathe of the relic table devoted to them.

That's probably going to depend on the cooldown of the elite skill in question.  IIRC, some specs have limited access to elites that are sub 20sec and others are super long and not really beneficial.  It's always going to come down to the icd as that obviously will determine the frequency of use.