Rune/relic new system poll

[Drag You Down.2615]

On 8/24/2023 at 4:17 PM, Leo G.4501 said:

That's probably going to depend on the cooldown of the elite skill in question.  IIRC, some specs have limited access to elites that are sub 20sec and others are super long and not really beneficial.  It's always going to come down to the icd as that obviously will determine the frequency of use.

Yes, Elite skill CD is the main problem here. Some of them has shorter CD, like Firebrand mantra, Engineer Mortar kit (0 CD), and most Revenant elite skills. They can proc relic immediately when it is off cd. But the other skills, like Warrior's banner, Engi's turret, Ranger's spirit, Thief's guild (this skill should be deleted XD), ele's greatsword and tornado, Mesmer's time zone and Necro's Lich. Those skills have CD longer than 120s.

There are 30 elite skills that have CD 60+ secs. 30 out of 54 56 (Revenant has 8 elite skills, the others have 6.) So this ICD is really nothing. It is still very unbalanced.  Because for most ppl, this effect can only be triggered once every 60 secs at least.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Drag You Down.2615

[Keefe.3821]

It's kitten that I need to purchase recipes of relics when I already own the recipes from the original rune. 

 

Anet is great at pissing of their base.

 

This is as stupid as the time when they made all the borderlands in WVW desert. 

[DeanBB.4268]

I thought there was something about once a relic is unlocked, you can just visit a vendor to get more?

[Riba.3271]

Relics are cool. There are some busted ones (Speed relic in WvW), but main thing is that we moved away from cool effects like Warrior relic effect being held back by the fact that the Warrior rune had useless vitality as main stat.

I am having so much fun experiencing new viable ways to play the game. Change is good.

Lets just hope they keep us on our toes by nerfing some obvious outperformers (Speed in WvW) and buffing some obviously unplayable relics, while adding new interesting effects into the game. Exciting times.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

3 hours ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

Yes, Elite skill CD is the main problem here. Some of them has shorter CD, like Firebrand mantra, Engineer Mortar kit (0 CD), and most Revenant elite skills. They can proc relic immediately when it is off cd. But the other skills, like Warrior's banner, Engi's turret, Ranger's spirit, Thief's guild (this skill should be deleted XD), ele's greatsword and tornado, Mesmer's time zone and Necro's Lich. Those skills have CD longer than 120s.

There are 30 elite skills that have CD 60+ secs. 30 out of 54. So this ICD is really nothing. It is still very unbalanced.  Because for most ppl, this effect can only be triggered more than 60 secs per time.

 

That is most likely why most relic that proc on elite skill have a quite underwhelming effect.

[otto.5684]

14 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Uhh what? They aren't intrinsically linked... The individual Relic's mechanics, and the system their embedded in (a separation of the effect from the stat) are two distinguishable things, and that distinction exists because there are important differences between the Relic system, and just the Rune system...Such as the ability to mix and match stats with unique effects.

Here's an example bro...Say I didn't like the Relic system...and the choices were to either go back to the previous system, or to just wait to get the remaining relics :

The previous system only has 99 choices you could make. Where as the Relic system (currently) has 99x40 choices you can make. If I said "Lets go back" rather than saying "ya I'll wait" then not only are you shorting yourself of 3800 choices, your shorting yourself of 9700 possible choices in the future.

This lapse of judgment is the deciding factor between getting 99 choices vs 9700 choices. You were saying playstyles were important right? that's 9600 possible playstyles your going to be screwing the game over, pitch-forking a return to the old system.

Like I said, the topic should be about relic critique plane and simple. All other arguments or justification for the old system are moot for this reason.

I find this a bit funny. See, logically the new system should provide much more options. But it doesn’t. Do you know why?

1) The stats provided by the old runes typically went with the direction of 6th stat. Condi related 6th stat, condi stats.

2) The 6th effect is typically as important, and sometimes the key effect.

3) The new stats are mostly a variation of garbage. On top of that, many of the stats are tied to execution that makes it unusable on many classes/builds.

No, the topic shouldn’t be about relic critique. It is a part of what being criticised. This is about removing a good function system, that existed for years, and implementing a half baked piece of junk, that haven’t reach alpha stage, forget being ready for release. 

This is one of the dumbest decisions I have seen in an MMO game. And whoever green-lit this at Anet should be removed from any decision making position.

Edited August 25, 2023 by otto.5684

[otto.5684]

7 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

That's probably going to depend on the cooldown of the elite skill in question.  IIRC, some specs have limited access to elites that are sub 20sec and others are super long and not really beneficial.  It's always going to come down to the icd as that obviously will determine the frequency of use.

Many classes have long CD elite, which makes these relics unusable. 

[Drag You Down.2615]

25 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

Many classes have long CD elite, which makes these relics unusable. 

Revenant is probably the only happy class with those relics XD

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

3 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

I find this a bit funny. See, logically the new system should provide much more options. But it doesn’t. Do you know why?

1) The stats provided by the old runes typically went with the direction of 6th stat. Condi related 6th stat, condi stats.

No...a large majority of runes never even had a 6th stat. That was one of the major issues with the original runes.

3 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

2) The 6th effect is typically as important, and sometimes the key effect.

Yes it is important...and now you can use ANY of them that you want, with any of the 99 stats sets you can choose from without bringing along 400 stats you can't take advantage of.

3 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

3) The new stats are mostly a variation of garbage. On top of that, many of the stats are tied to execution that makes it unusable on many classes/builds.

Not many of the runes stats even changed from the old system to the new system...what they did do was give everyone in the new system a 6th tier stat bonus (which is great) Whether some of those 6th stat bonuses are good or not, or whether they mesh with the other stats on the rune, can be debated which i'm all for, though I don't have any strong opinions about the runes stats as there's so many to choose from, that your bound to find a stat set that aligns with whatever your goals are...and there's now room in the future to simply add more rune stat combinations along with easier changes to them now that the effect is decoupled from the stat. But the 6th tier stat bonus has nothing to do with the system itself...that's just a critique on it's effects (their effects being stats in this case) and that they need to do some work to improve them.

3 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

No, the topic shouldn’t be about relic critique. It is a part of what being criticised. This is about removing a good function system, that existed for years, and implementing a half baked piece of junk, that haven’t reach alpha stage, forget being ready for release. 

No. Previous rune system was bad, and it was always a half baked piece of junk and people merely coped with it's existence. Like I said in the second bullet point, as a system the runes unique effects, were locked to stats, and this was the major weak point of the old rune system...which is now fixed in this relic system...you can go and use ANY effect you want, with the stat set that your build ACTUALLY USES...which is a clear improvement. 

As for the Relic effects, which SHOULD be the actual focus of discussion, about a quarter of them are well-designed, the remaining 75% of them are unimaginative and mediocre...mostly because they have been "over-balanced" or heavily balanced in fear being overpowered...which results in people getting lackluster and homogenous effects...btw this was also true of the old rune system too...most of the runes effects were lackluster and mediocre...and about half of the runes effects from the old system were just copy pasted over to Relics. There's literally no reason to go back to what would otherwise be basically the same unique effects, but with stats you can't utilize.

Additionally, people are hung up on getting only 40 relics at launch instead of 100...that's completely reasonable and I agree that that was not a smart idea on Anet's part (Though people were told about this in advance, and they said they'd roll out the rest over time, so it's not like you weren't aware of these facts.)

In conclusion: The relic system is good...the lackluster relic effects need improving...therefor that is what should be discussed, are a critique of it's effects, not a reversion to the old rune god-awful rune system.

Edited August 25, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Sansar.1302]

The relic system is good.

None of the 6th bonus they have introdused is good for my builds, then i see over to necro, guardian and eles and how good some of the relics are for them.

Makes me feeling bullied.

[Noc Rubu.5804]

23 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

They have only half implemented it, we will get a relic for all core and elite specialisations. 

Why take away what I already had... then not give it back.  That is a nerf. 

[Comus.7365]

i think it will be better in the long run.

[Kuma.1503]

Good system. Underwhelming effects. 

Some relics are good. Many are unimpactful/boring. Too many proc on heal/elite with long ICDs. Feels very unexciting and uninspired. 

[Kirill.6798]

7 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

No, the topic shouldn’t be about relic critique. It is a part of what being criticised. This is about removing a good function system, that existed for years, and implementing a half baked piece of junk, that haven’t reach alpha stage, forget being ready for release. 

This is one of the dumbest decisions I have seen in an MMO game. And whoever green-lit this at Anet should be removed from any decision making position.

It is the greatest sentence that I read last few days! Absolutely agree.

[Urud.4925]

I think they once again missed their (good) intention to provide more flexibility, doing the opposite. My condi mech lost 10% of condi duration, and I can't find any good replacement among the current relics (I don't inflict weakness nor vulnerability). Most of the relics are still very specific for a profession, and they are few at launch. The power relics also limit the rotation, for example the 1% damage per hit for 6 seconds (up to 5%) is basically the old 5% strike damage, but now you must use 5 autoattacks to stack the bonus before a big hit. The 10% damage if you use a skill with a long cooldown also means that you must use skills like gs5 on a guardian before gs2: it works, sure, but it forces the rotation in a more strict way than a flat 4% more strike damage or 5% if your HP is higher than 90%. It's another micromanagement that adds on top of the other things.

We will have more choices in the future, for sure, but so far for me it's a straight nerf (which is not bad per se, but it's not equal for all the specs).

[China.5268]

If they bring back all the old runes 6° effect it will be GREAT, but removing most and adding new/reworked ones well... i didnt like..

Many builds are dead like torm, confusion, bleeding etc.. honestly i didnt like.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 8/24/2023 at 1:25 PM, Mell.4873 said:

They have only half implemented it, we will get a relic for all core and elite specialisations. 

If they'll be as bad as the ones we've got so far, then it won't change anything. It would have been better to have a smaller number of actually useful relics than what we have now. The same with runesets - they had a chance to do an overhaul, removing or revamping the less usefulones. Instead they left all the bad ones, effectively nerfed some with potential to maybe become alternate top picks by giving them weird 6th rune stat bonuses (like vitality on dps-focused runeset), and killed some fun effects that hurt noone (all the runesets with pet summons).

It's not about the system being half-implemented. It's about the implementation we already have being bad.

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If they'll be as bad as the ones we've got so far, then it won't change anything. It would have been better to have a smaller number of actually useful relics than what we have now. The same with runesets - they had a chance to do an overhaul, removing or revamping the less usefulones. Instead they left all the bad ones, effectively nerfed some with potential to maybe become alternate top picks by giving them weird 6th rune stat bonuses (like vitality on dps-focused runeset), and killed some fun effects that hurt noone (all the runesets with pet summons).

It's not about the system being half-implemented. It's about the implementation we already have being bad.

Again we just have to the wait, this expansions theme is that we have massive content updates. 

Only a few runes with unique effects didn't get brought across. I don't think anyone cares that Scholar runes was not transfered, anything truly unique we will have to just wait sadly. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Gaiawolf.8261]

While I agree we need many more relics, and they *really* need to bring back some lost functions from scrapped rune bonuses (many of them in fact), I don't understand the abject hate for most of the new relics. Only some of the DPS ones are subpar. Some are actually improvements, while some are a bit of a nerf that require a bit more involvement but ultimately provide the same benefit (like Relic of Thief obviously replacing the Scholar effect). A few of of the support relics actually look more useful. The tooltips for the conditional relics are so stupidly vague I'm not even sure what to make of them. Are they good? Are they bad? Come on, give us adequate tooltips before going live with something, Anet. I agree that tying affects to elite skills is a basic, dumb move. The CDs for elites are far too inconsistent for such a mechanic, unless the rune effect is so powerful to warrant a 60s+ CD maybe.

And no, we shouldn't need to wait for more effects or fixes to a half-baked system. They should have waited until they can provide a good, deep, rich relic selection before going live with this and killing so many fun builds. I'm excited for what could become of it, but there is no need to roll it out slowly. Get it in a good spot first, and then release it.

Bottom line: While they need a lot more relic affects than provided, and 1) they're obviously going for more interaction (using skills to get your +5% strike damage rather than a static bonus) and 2) some iconic rune effect need to be added back (like Trapper and summons), the rune effects are not nearly as bad as posters are complaining about. Support relics, and a few of the utility ones are pretty good! Overall the system is just not quite ready and needs more work before going in the game, but it has promise. I like the intent. Just finish it before releasing it, please.

 

[Darklord Roy.2514]

On 8/24/2023 at 6:36 AM, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

The relic system is just way better then the rune system please don’t make us go back. I don’t understand how people can articulate defending a system in which you ignored 99.9% of it because the effect you want to play didn’t have the stats you needed.

Folks need to learn to differentiate between critiquing the relic effects (which is what most people have an issue with), and the system it’s embedded in.

There are ups and downs to this. I'm also of the opinion that the concept of splitting up rune stats and the 6th bonus into relics is an *overall* good idea for creating more player choices.

However... (biiiiiiiig emphasis on however)

I think it's perfectly fine to critique the system when, at least at the time of release, it has completely removed the vast majority of 6th rune bonuses from the game. The entire purpose of splitting these effects in the first place was to promote build diversity, and while they have done that to a degree, they have also REMOVED a great deal of diversity on launch in the process.

Bottom line, it's a severely unfinished system that should have been released when it was finalized, not just for the sake of being an expansion feature. On top of not releasing over half of the different rune 6th effects, most relics have incomplete tooltips (not showing durations or number of stacks for boons/conditions) and a lot of them feel very underwhelming to use compared to the old 6th rune bonuses.

I have no doubts that it eventually WILL be a good system, but I can't in good conscience say that the current iteration makes any sense even if the overarching gameplay design decision makes sense. It's poorly implemented.

[otto.5684]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Again we just have to the wait, this expansions theme is that we have massive content updates. 

Only a few runes with unique effects didn't get brought across. I don't think anyone cares that Scholar runes was not transfered, anything truly unique we will have to just wait sadly. 

Why should we wait? If the system wasn’t ready it shouldn’t have been implemented until it is.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Only a few runes with unique effects didn't get brought across.

You meant to say, only a few rune effects did get brought across, right?

[Mell.4873]

53 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

Why should we wait? If the system wasn’t ready it shouldn’t have been implemented until it is.

Its there new direction, no more living world or 4th map tacked on to the end of any expansion like with EoD. 

They want to content drop us every year with a new expansion + updates for them every quarter. 

[Mell.4873]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You meant to say, only a few rune effects did get brought across, right?

Well I dont think anything got a direct transfer. From memory the Rune of Leadership and Warrior are the same as the relic but that is about it. Most got something completely new like the Rune of the Thief. 

[ScottBroChill.3254]

the system is fine, the effects leave a lot to be desired. Too many niche effects that are only available to a few classes. I'm having a difficult time picking which ones to unlock because none of them look good. Also, whats the deal with leaving info out of their effects like the time and stacks of conditions, or healing and damage? Because the condition relics sound good on paper until you realize it gives only like one condition. Who wants or needs that.

So I like that they separated the special effects and runes, but they are just pointless. They don't change game play in the slightest.