How it started, how it's going, two years later, Wvw is still in shambles.

[XenesisII.1540]

I want to point out a couple things.

First.

Arenanet Studio Update July 2nd 2021

Quote

Alliances When?

This year.

Quote

Our communication regarding this feature over the last few years missed the mark. In the past, development priorities shifted away from WvW, and unfortunately both World Restructuring and our players suffered as a result. Our new leadership team views WvW as a cornerstone mode of Guild Wars 2, and it will be a focus of ours going forward.

Play the Weaponmaster training beta June 29th 2023

Quote

We’ll be back in the next week or so with details about the next WvW World Restructuring beta, which will feature the ability for guilds to team up in Alliances for WvW. 

It's now been two months from that blog and not one word about the next beta, it's not even in the new studio update. Guild Wars 2 Soto launches Fall update preview

We've now also had two WvW Lead Devs quietly leave Anet before this project could be completed, first McKenna and now Floyd.

----------------------------------------------------

Next we've been getting reward updates this year.

Studio update World Restructuring and the future of World vs World Sept 10th 2021

Quote

After World Restructuring, we’ll be looking to make WvW more rewarding, with a focus on active play. There’s two major parts to this. First, we’ll be looking at improving individual rewards for participation and performance. This will be a mix of adding new rewards and improving older systems. As an example, we’d like to address how support players are under rewarded. Skirmish tracks also take longer to progress than we’d like, especially for new players.

So this first part is pretty much finished from all the changes this year. From new wvw weeklies, new infusion, new objective scaling rewards, now new daily/weekly system with wizard's vault, sped up skirmish and reward tracks, increased participation for healers, new vendor for odd currencies. Apparently they couldn't wait until after World restructuring was done, to tell you how well that's going...

Quote

Second, we want to give players and guilds reasons to care about winning their current match up and reward them for exceptional performance during a season. Longer-term, we’d also like to introduce systems that would allow guilds to flex and compare their WvW prowess.

So this is what we have to look forward to, whenever they get around to it, before or after world restructuring is actually done. Is this really going to matter much in a mode where the bigger meta zerg wins 9/10 times? Tons of guilds have already left for good the past 10 years. Now a couple guilds will get their names up on a board for a month and then get bored and leave? would this just be more fluff or actual fair competitive comparisons to flex... yes no point going in depth on a ghost system right now, but it's stuff like that just doesn't seem worthwhile at the age of the game.

Quote

Once both population balance and rewards are addressed, our theory is that WvW gameplay may see a significant shift. Players tend to naturally optimize their gameplay towards “the goal”, and with that comes new strategy and meta. At that point, we intend to look very hard at core WvW systems (upgrades, scoring, siege, etc) and balance them to ensure that the WvW experience is still reflecting our vision. No system is safe from iteration!

Does anyone honestly believe there's going to be a significant shift? and by shift I mean giving two kittens about winning again. The only optimization towards "the goal" I've seen is groups optimizing their "farming" of enemy pugs, which boils down to run the fattest meta group you can create. I doubt population balance will provide much of a shift either at this age of the game, there needs to be a shift in the foundation of wvw systems itself. Motivations to win needs to be changed at the match level not just the guild or personal levels, "team" to many players no longer means Server or World, it's "my Guild", which is disastrous for a rvr "team" game mode which as the purpose of trying to win for the entire side, otherwise there's no real point to "scoring".  Watching a guild proc oj's at the gvg spot on home map clogging up 30-50 map spots, while the rest of the map gets changed to two other colors for the next 30mins isn't actually working as a "team".

Maybe changes will come with the last part of that statement to provide a significant change, but I'm really not confident in anet fixing the actual problems and instead focused on throwing more glitter at the guilds that tend to reform or flicker out due to boredom in the gameplay they themselves helped "improve" the past year.

Quote

Everything described above is aimed at addressing foundational issues affecting the WvW experience. Our priorities beyond this point are highly flexible and will undoubtedly be influenced by the community and the needs of the game mode. Expect more communications, just like this one, down the road.

That lasted until the expansion, same with the wxp bonus events. 😐

At least we have a mysterious wvw system update to look forward to in the fall I guess. Guild Wars 2 Soto launches and Fall update preview Aug 22nd 2023

People ask me why I'm salty, it's because of all  of the above, not to mention the balance issue, watching "my game style" get nerfed to the ground affecting boon strips.

Arenanet Studio update-the future of Guild Wars 2 Mar 22nd 2022

Quote

Speaking of balance, profession balance has a huge impact on the WvW experience, whether you tend to play as a roamer, a havoc player, or if you choose to run with 49 (or more) of your closest friends. This brings us to our next area of focus.

Apparently this past year they forgot about balancing for the roamer, havoc play, and just focused on the a commander and their 49 closest friends.

So two years later, we got like 8 world restructuring betas that couldn't solve the queue problem, upgraded dopamine reward hits, combat tuned solely to boon balls, a mysterious system update, and a vanishing alliance beta.  🤷‍♂️

[Dawdler.8521]

They gave you free shambles and still you complain.

[Nikola.3841]

Be like me, embrace the game as it is.

After 20y I realized there will be no new DAOC, or even

WHO...not even by Mark Jacobs

[Dadnir.5038]

11 years of GW2 taught me that no change can be a lot better than a change. The odds are high that "alliances" aren't going to make the gamemode better.

[Thomas.2564]

Alliance's wont change jack. And if u think it will, ur setting self up for major disapointmant. 'Expect the best, but accept the worse'. Since it's core elemental of wvw that's the issue. 

[RisingDawn.5796]

It doesn't help when their WvW Lead Devs/Directors leave after a few years, or months.

Alliances won't make it, like how active it used to be 7-10 years ago on the more populated servers. Even then it still had it's issues back then, but I don't think the game mode is any better with the current Linking system, as a bandaid for population 'balance' either.

Edited August 30, 2023 by CrimsonOneThree.5682

[Every day pon.5386]

ANet essentially sabotaged commanding WvW PUGs now that Profession capability is unreadable with Squad Weapons & Relic paywalls

 

I'm 💯 convinced that ANet has malicious team development problems, beyond overwhelmingly depreciating previously balanced WvW aspects given that the expansion looted player equipment & the previously captured deplorable Discord exchange

[Pulsefire Jayce.4753]

Not to bring up an old thread, but:

Alliances When?!  Communication Ever?!!?

[devastoscz.9851]

Post this on reddit. Or twitter? Or a billboard somewhere. Maybe the devs will give us an answer if they're more publicly called out. This WvW subforum might as well not exist, not like we're getting any sort of replies (to anything, not just this) and the general community isn't even aware (or care) about all this. I respect the effort @XenesisII.1540, I really do. I've replied and contributed to many threads like this but at this point it's feels like its a waste of time. We're doing them a favor by posting here, where they can just ignore us.

[XenesisII.1540]

2 minutes ago, devastoscz.9851 said:

Post this on reddit. Or twitter? Or a billboard somewhere. Maybe the devs will give us an answer if they're more publicly called out. This WvW subforum might as well not exist, not like we're getting any sort of replies (to anything, not just this) and the general community isn't even aware (or care) about all this. I respect the effort @XenesisII.1540, I really do. I've replied and contributed to many threads like this but at this point it's feels like its a waste of time. We're doing them a favor by posting here, where they can just ignore us.

Oh I know it's pointless, so is posting in other places in regards to wvw. Sometimes they do read the wvw forums, as much as we say they don't, there's some changes that have made it in when they were mentioned here, like some of the reward stuff. This is just some 1% poking and prodding to see if we somehow get a response/follow up, which I fully don't expect to get. Maybe we'll get a blog on the mystery system later, maybe they'll announce the wr beta again there, or maybe they'll just ignore the wr announcement and move on like nothing happened, as usual.

Also this is just a little reminder to people, don't get hyped by anet, this was never a "cornerstone", that was just hype to drum up interest in time for an expansion.

[Zepoolpe.9217]

You are forgetting the timing:

• 4 years to start working on it
• 4 years to beta the world restructuring system
• 4 years to beta the actual alliance system
• 4 years to implement it

...

...

Yeah i know, I'm overly optimistic, but hey, it's a cornerstone of the game after all!

Edited September 1, 2023 by Zepoolpe.9217

[LetoII.3782]

On 8/31/2023 at 10:25 AM, Pulsefire Jayce.4753 said:

Not to bring up an old thread, but:

Alliances When?!  Communication Ever?!!?

To definitely bring up an even older thread:

All is vain

[Leger.3724]

On 8/30/2023 at 12:50 AM, Every day pon.5386 said:

ANet essentially sabotaged commanding WvW PUGs now that Profession capability is unreadable with Squad Weapons & Relic paywalls

 

I'm 💯 convinced that ANet has malicious team development problems, beyond overwhelmingly depreciating previously balanced WvW aspects given that the expansion looted player equipment & the previously captured deplorable Discord exchange

You need to read these forums.

"I'm so disappointed there's not another specialization" and blah blah blah. They started with a complex enough combat system and have only added to it over the years because players have demanded more and more. And so here we are with a bottom of the barrel combat system for pvp. The system isn't even good for pve.

It's not malicious. The devs read the pve feedback "why isn't there this or that" and they put it through... to hell with combat and game health.

Of  course a few pubstars who can't rate in any competitive game and play catalyst, thief, core ranger, willbender think everything is fine. But there's a reason the player health in pvp is a disaster and even pve isn't in that healthy of a state. They took action combat and MMO skillbar length and smashed it together with a ton of grief mechanics and a complete lack of balance and voila.

I want to end on a positive note so the open world cooperative pve is the best I've ever seen by far. There is a lot to like about Guild Wars 2. But the combat design from the ground up combined with all the expansion of it to cater to pve has been an unmitigated disaster as far as I'm concerned. One of the biggest reasons the game didn't catch on. 

[Junkpile.7439]

We need new game mode. Players won't never take this pointless 24/7 kitten seriously. One 4 hours match in week where player would even try to play game right way would be better than this 24/7 kitten show.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Junkpile.7439

[RisingDawn.5796]

....

Edited September 28, 2023 by CrimsonOneThree.5682

[Riba.3271]

Heart of Thorns expansion was released 23rd October 2015.  So almost 8 years ago.

This is exact date that began downfall of WvW with tactivators, faster upgrades, dolyak escort buffs, objective auras, shield generators and desert map. Basically all competitiveness. logic and balance was thrown out of window for something that seems fun for 1 night. They never returned to the fair balance between siege, objectives, attackers and defenders. Of course they added carebear terrible linking system after that intead of just outright deleting worlds.

Now I am not too surpised they're wasting their energy on doing lot of work to replace servers system, when they did the same with desert map, instead of focusing on real issues that can be fixed with 100 times less work.

[Aeolus.3615]

War, war never changes.

[Chaos God.1639]

what did you expect? you expected the devs to read everybody's mind and create a perfect game for everybody? thats just UNREALISTIC. some players here even expect a perfect balance... like it's a some type of chess game.

[Kal Durak.2830]

On 8/29/2023 at 7:44 AM, XenesisII.1540 said:

I want to point out a couple things.

First.

Arenanet Studio Update July 2nd 2021

Play the Weaponmaster training beta June 29th 2023

It's now been two months from that blog and not one word about the next beta, it's not even in the new studio update. Guild Wars 2 Soto launches Fall update preview

We've now also had two WvW Lead Devs quietly leave Anet before this project could be completed, first McKenna and now Floyd.

----------------------------------------------------

Next we've been getting reward updates this year.

Studio update World Restructuring and the future of World vs World Sept 10th 2021

So this first part is pretty much finished from all the changes this year. From new wvw weeklies, new infusion, new objective scaling rewards, now new daily/weekly system with wizard's vault, sped up skirmish and reward tracks, increased participation for healers, new vendor for odd currencies. Apparently they couldn't wait until after World restructuring was done, to tell you how well that's going...

So this is what we have to look forward to, whenever they get around to it, before or after world restructuring is actually done. Is this really going to matter much in a mode where the bigger meta zerg wins 9/10 times? Tons of guilds have already left for good the past 10 years. Now a couple guilds will get their names up on a board for a month and then get bored and leave? would this just be more fluff or actual fair competitive comparisons to flex... yes no point going in depth on a ghost system right now, but it's stuff like that just doesn't seem worthwhile at the age of the game.

Does anyone honestly believe there's going to be a significant shift? and by shift I mean giving two kittens about winning again. The only optimization towards "the goal" I've seen is groups optimizing their "farming" of enemy pugs, which boils down to run the fattest meta group you can create. I doubt population balance will provide much of a shift either at this age of the game, there needs to be a shift in the foundation of wvw systems itself. Motivations to win needs to be changed at the match level not just the guild or personal levels, "team" to many players no longer means Server or World, it's "my Guild", which is disastrous for a rvr "team" game mode which as the purpose of trying to win for the entire side, otherwise there's no real point to "scoring".  Watching a guild proc oj's at the gvg spot on home map clogging up 30-50 map spots, while the rest of the map gets changed to two other colors for the next 30mins isn't actually working as a "team".

Maybe changes will come with the last part of that statement to provide a significant change, but I'm really not confident in anet fixing the actual problems and instead focused on throwing more glitter at the guilds that tend to reform or flicker out due to boredom in the gameplay they themselves helped "improve" the past year.

That lasted until the expansion, same with the wxp bonus events. 😐

At least we have a mysterious wvw system update to look forward to in the fall I guess. Guild Wars 2 Soto launches and Fall update preview Aug 22nd 2023

People ask me why I'm salty, it's because of all  of the above, not to mention the balance issue, watching "my game style" get nerfed to the ground affecting boon strips.

Arenanet Studio update-the future of Guild Wars 2 Mar 22nd 2022

Apparently this past year they forgot about balancing for the roamer, havoc play, and just focused on the a commander and their 49 closest friends.

So two years later, we got like 8 world restructuring betas that couldn't solve the queue problem, upgraded dopamine reward hits, combat tuned solely to boon balls, a mysterious system update, and a vanishing alliance beta.  🤷‍♂️

So true and great post, thank you

 

We need to get the big name streamers to point this out.  

Edited September 6, 2023 by Areoh.7495

[adammantium.8031]

Alliances feel like a victim of merciless prioritization for years on end.

Obviously, nobody has been working on this for 4 years, or however long it has been. Any attention has been in fits and starts.

WvW doesn't have as large a playerbase as PVE. If you're looking to grow your game and generate revenue, you build more features which engage those players, such as raids, dungeons, expansions, skins.

I don't doubt alliances was picked up with the best of intentions, as can be seen from Floyd's enthusiasm upon joining the team and the brief upturn in communication and movement. Maybe someone thought there was an opportunity to grow the game in WvW at that time.

But with the imminent launch of a new expansion, these guys were pulled off the project and/or moved on and were not replaced. WvW was simply deprioritized. It's a painful message to deliver to your playerbase, and a can that must feel very easy to kick down the road. It's pretty kitten cowardly to not be up front about it though, when project management fails so badly so often.

Alliances feel as likely to happen as updates to GW1 at present. Just a charitable bit of work done by some committed devs after hours.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

8 hours ago, adammantium.8031 said:

Alliances feel like a victim of merciless prioritization for years on end.

That's exactly it.  

As a software dev myself, allainces scream "that's great you put all this work into this project, but here's 10 others that are way more important as of yesterday".

They got Floyd, then had him do some smaller cherry-picked improvements to get easy wins--and to be honest most of them were great, aside from defender nerf which is just annoying/bugged.  The bigger alliance systems got offloaded to 'whenever' land because of the queue bug and probably some other issues we don't know about.

It's not they aren't working on it, it's just the fact that competitive makes them no money and is absolutely not a priority.  We may have fun because for the most part the combat system is great (balance aside), but new features just may never get worked on unless something huge happens and they can divert time away from PvE.  

[XenesisII.1540]

21 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

It's not they aren't working on it, it's just the fact that competitive makes them no money and is absolutely not a priority.

I don't know why people make this statement. Spvp and Wvw players buy the same expansions, gems store items, account upgrades, as everyone else. Actually spend more on server transfers as pve don't need to. No one actually had to pay for living story updates, the thing that sucks up most of their content development time, other than the suckers who came late to the game.

Sure I can understand making something specific for wvw like the desert map used more resources they were willing to use, and that was given for free since they have all accounts playing in the same maps and cannot make a separation of population like they can for expansion and living story zones, there isn't a choice there, but I don't think it excuses them to have 99.9% of the team working on pve and barely touch wvw or spvp. Floyd comes in and manages to make some headway on WR, manages to make some reward changes, at least it was something and not completely dead period like it was after warclaw. I don't see why they couldn't keep a small team on it to get some things out of the way. 🤷‍♂️

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

I don't know why people make this statement. Spvp and Wvw players buy the same expansions, gems store items, account upgrades, as everyone else. Actually spend more on server transfers as pve don't need to. No one actually had to pay for living story updates, the thing that sucks up most of their content development time, other than the suckers who came late to the game.

sPVP only players spend practically nothing on the game, and pride themselves on low inventory space and not having 'pve skins' and other things.  Don't have to take my word for it, just show up in ranked with legendary effects on and watch the comments roll in.

WvW only players may buy slightly more gemstore things because WvW is closer to PvE, but we can see there's like 1 Warclaw skin to 10 other mount skins.  They may also buy a few equip/build templates if more hardcore--but really not much else.  I base this on my guild where the group I run with are mostly WvW only players (to the point of where JPs in WvW even are too much).  

PvE only players spend a TON on cosmetics, mount skins, character slots, BL keys, etc. etc.   A subset even wants player housing which is purely cosmetic with zero functional gain but a LOT of money for anet.

As someone who has played a lot of all three, sPVP is essentially a meaningless place to go to get some dailies or just something different, WvW I only play because of my guild, and PvE is the rest of the time.  If didn't have a guild, then I'd probably just solo roam a bit in WvW (where most casuals absolutely will not and just avoid the mode) and go back to PvE whenever new content drops.  

There's no contest here in terms of what generates revenue.  Competitive modes have never carried revenue generation unless the entire game is based around it like Fortnite / Valorant / League / etc.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[XenesisII.1540]

42 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

There's no contest here in terms of what generates revenue.  Competitive modes have never carried revenue generation unless the entire game is based around it like Fortnite / Valorant / League / etc.

Never said it did and never expect it to for a mmo built around pve, doesn't mean it should be 99.9% pve development, wvw was an endgame feature from day one and I would even say draws more people than raids which was added 3 years later to attract that crowd of players from other games.

While they spaz out with catch phrases of how it's a cornerstone but then treat it like the outhouse. If you don't invest in an area of the game, don't expect it's players to invest back into the game. 🤷‍♂️

[ArchonWing.9480]

Spending gems is not a factor of game mode. Many people buy gems just to support the game. But even so, WvW players spend significant amount of gems on world transfers, and are also prone to buy the new expansions to get an advantage with new specs or whatnot.  WvW players also can have some high inventory demands that pve players don't like siege and tools-- it's arguably the most expensive game mode. For most of its existence, WvW generated much less gold and what does it cost to play most pve? Waypoints. That's about it.

Also even if you don't spend actual money on gems, the gems don't just appear out of thin air-- someone had to purchase those gems with money first.

And so I think I probably have contributed quite a bit to the game economy.

https://i.imgur.com/YzrwJeW.png

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480