Power Creep, The game is too easy [Merged]

[gousgou.5438]

On 9/24/2023 at 3:43 AM, hellsqueen.3045 said:

Dragon Stand Boss wouldn't last more than 10 minutes even if you got everyone to stop wearing their armor, because people now have mounts and know how to do the Bomb Dropping Phase.

We all know 3rd bite cc to give people time to drop the bombs and with mounts, that is made even easier, and even more so now if you think that mounts can use updrafts, you now only have to dismount to throw it.

They could just disallow mounts at that encounter. It was designed to be completed using ley lines and gliding anyway.

Mount related power creep solved right there.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

22 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

This game is "play the expac if you want things that don't insta die" but we get 1/10th the content real MMO's get.

"I paid 125€ in 11 years for this game and I get less content than in games that cost that much in a year!"

[Sansar.1302]

On 9/11/2023 at 5:55 PM, ugrakarma.9416 said:

The game shouldn't be balanced around these "golems testers" is very biased.

Their "uber DPS" runs over overcomplicated rotation's.

I dont think the game should be balanced around pve at all , let the pve meta be whatever ppl find best and do all the balance around wvw and spvp

[SuavePuppy.2809]

I agree that it's gotten out of hand, but I would just like to point out that at the same time this thread is on the front page, there's another where OP states "If I spent the 1-2 hrs in a meta event I expect the end of event chain has no fail condition". 

For every person that wants a challenge, there's another that wants to autopilot. It's really impossible to please everyone.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

20 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Benchmarks use a specific setup to try and imitate conditions present in more organized squads, details on "how to set up" here:
https://snowcrows.com/guides/getting-started/special-forces-area

So I followed the link and followed the instructions. And with ALL the boons it said and all the conditions and a plate of tasty....uh......Beef Rendang (I'm not sure what that is and I'm not brave enough to try it) my dps went up to about 8.5k. Which is better, but still a far cry from the numbers I was hearing everyone else talking about.

[Sobx.1758]

4 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

So I followed the link and followed the instructions. And with ALL the boons it said and all the conditions and a plate of tasty....uh......Beef Rendang (I'm not sure what that is and I'm not brave enough to try it) my dps went up to about 8.5k. Which is better, but still a far cry from the numbers I was hearing everyone else talking about.

What build/gear attributes are you using?

[ShadowKatt.6740]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

What build/gear attributes are you using?

I am a basic kitten FULLY celestial mesmer with a full set of ascended armor, superior Traveler runes, and the Bifrost as my weapon of choice.

To be absolutely fair, I'm not competetive. I don't like pvp, I don't even really like wvw, and I never wanted to be #1 in anything. I never wanted to be the top 1% when it came to damage output, but I also never wanted to be the bottom 1% either. It's a bit like playing any tournament shooter. You might not be the VIP on the team, but the last thing you want is to have a negative K:D. And that's what I feel like right now. I just never knew it til I actually tested my DPS.

NOW TO BE FAIR to myself, that's not to say I'm a bad player. I'm a survivalist. I can fight 20:1 in PvE and come out on top without much of a hassle. I'm a frequent healer and rezzer during events and metas. And I'm not a burden to anyone; I am almost never downed. I just thought my contributions were.....more.

[Ashen.2907]

8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Most players are completely unaware of how big the effectiveness gaps are.

This.

The multiplicative nature of the interaction between so many variables can generate gaps in performance that are exponential. I would guess that most people think that dropping a 10% damage bonus means doing 10% less damage....which would be fine if the survivability you take in its place means not being downed (losing all of your DPS and that of anyone who takes the time to help you rezz). 

Overall, I think that min/maxing should allow for greater performance than those who dont fully engage with this aspect of the game....but I also think that the difference should be smaller. I would be OK with my maxed build/rotation/etc doing 20-25% more damage than an average build/play rather than 1000-1500% more.

[Panda.1967]

8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Now, that is another issue: the visibility of problems. Most players are completely unaware of how big the effectiveness gaps are. They may think they sacrificed a small amount of dps for some increase in survivability without realizing they (for example) dropped their dps by 3/4 to gain a very minor, 5% survivability increase. Or that the set of traits they thought will give them a better dps actually does not work as good as they assumed.

This highlights the real root of the problem... It's not actually a power creep issue so much as a balance issue. A relatively small selection of traits and skill combinations are significantly more effective in all content than others. It's also not very obvious which combinations are that overpowered either... sometimes you don't see the true power of a trait until you add in another seemingly weak trait from another spec line or use it with the right weapon or utility skill... because of this a large number of possible builds are considered "garbage builds" because they can't even hope to compete with the overpowered brokenness of theses selective combinations...  the average player is NOT going to be aware of these combinations, and even just having a moderate understanding of the systems isn't going to tell you they exist... 

Worse yet, some people think that there should be "good and bad choices" with traits... NO... there absolutely should NOT EVER be definitive "good and bad choices" in traits should be equally good or bad within their respective trait groups... It should never be a choice between a good, a bad, and a mediocre grandmaster trait in any spec in general... it's fine for there to be "good or bad traits for my build" but it is not fine for there to be "good or bad traits in general"... if a trait is bad in general, then it needs to be buffed... if a trait is so good that it is an "always take" or the other traits in its line are "definitively bad by comparison" then they need to make adjustments by either nerfing the overperforming trait and/or buffing the underperforming ones. In some cases, bad traits just need to be completely reworked entirely... if the triggering conditions for a trait are extremely situational, then it needs a rework. We shouldn't have any traits that are only useful in 1% of content. All traits should be useful in all content, there is no reasonable excuse for how things are now.

[Adry.7512]

The game ahs horizontal progression, its supposed to be this way for all the new players.

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I am a basic kitten FULLY celestial mesmer with a full set of ascended armor, superior Traveler runes, and the Bifrost as my weapon of choice.

To be absolutely fair, I'm not competetive. I don't like pvp, I don't even really like wvw, and I never wanted to be #1 in anything. I never wanted to be the top 1% when it came to damage output, but I also never wanted to be the bottom 1% either. It's a bit like playing any tournament shooter. You might not be the VIP on the team, but the last thing you want is to have a negative K:D. And that's what I feel like right now. I just never knew it til I actually tested my DPS.

Ok, so you have a bunch of defensive attributes in both gear stats and runes and you're trying to compare yourself to full dps builds. If you were anywhere near those full dps builds, that wouldn't make much sense to me. 😉 
And that doesn't even touch what traits and skills you picked.

2 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

NOW TO BE FAIR to myself, that's not to say I'm a bad player. I'm a survivalist. I can fight 20:1 in PvE and come out on top without much of a hassle. I'm a frequent healer and rezzer during events and metas. And I'm not a burden to anyone; I am almost never downed. I just thought my contributions were.....more.

Exactly! You basically agreed to trade dmg for other utilities and much higher survivability. The difference between this and relatively organized group play is that people dealing damage can simply offload their survavibility to dedicated supports.
And the "I thought" part is also fair, which is why the training golem -or other dps meters- is a useful tool to judge the impact of the changes we make to our builds.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Panda.1967]

2 hours ago, Adry.7512 said:

The game ahs horizontal progression, its supposed to be this way for all the new players.

You seem a bit confused... powercreep is how things are supposed to work with VERTICAL progression... Horizontal progression means at level cap all options are sidegrade... unfortunately, that isn't how things have worked out in GW2, despite the design philosophy for all expansions having been to add only horizontal progression... some stat sets are undeniably upgrades over others... Celestial was supposed to be the baseline average that all stat sets are built from... reducing some stats to increase others... unfortunately... the actual benefit of each stat is not even remotely equivalent to the point that the even stat spread of celestial armor actually ended up being one of the top tier stat sets rather than the well rounded average for all build types stat set.. defensive stats provide far too little benefit to the point that any time a statset trades out a defensive stat for either an offensive or a utility stat it is ALWAYS an upgrade... they could add an amount of toughness or vitality to every single stat set in the game and it would have next to no impact on the games balance. But add Concentration, Power, Precision, or Ferocity and you're looking at large boosts in multiple built types... 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Panda.1967

[Einsof.1457]

Unfortunately, after 10 years I've decided to uninstall. There is just no challenge anymore. Power creep is insane, all pve endgame is faceroll. Open world is like a afk mobile game. Soto was final nail in the coffin. Also profession and elite identity and fantasy has been obliterated now that all elites can use all weps. It isn't fun and there's no feeling of overcoming challenges anymore. Heart of Thorns  was the peak of guild wars 2. Which is funny because heart of Thorns wasn't balanced at all but it was by far the most satisfying gw2 ever was. This game just isn't for me anymore, sadly. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Einsof.1457

[Panda.1967]

5 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Also profession and elite identity and fantasy has been obliterated now that all elites can use all weps.

You do realize that elite spec weapons have ALWAYS been the smallest factor in elite spec identities right? Some elite spec weapons have even been considered as worst choice for their own elite spec since their introductions. For example, Mirage Axe... Axe was rarely used by Mirage Mesmers, Staff has been the best choice weapon for them forever... however, now Axe is able to find a home in Chronomancer & Virtuoso builds in ways that it never could with Mirage. Unlocking elite spec weapons from their specs didn't "obliterate elite spec identity and fantasy" it helped to improve it.

[Kozumi.5816]

13 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

"I paid 125€ in 11 years for this game and I get less content than in games that cost that much in a year!"

Ok? I'm not the one making business decisions, Anet is.

Giving them more money also won't cause them to create better content. They can't even fix bugs in their game in a timely manner. It's pathetic.

[Kozumi.5816]

14 hours ago, xellink.7568 said:

It didn't do 15k either. And chrono could give both alac and quickness. 100% is an exaggeration. 

Chrono gave both boons,. then did ~5k dps.

Now supports do 32-37k.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Ok? I'm not the one making business decisions, Anet is.

Giving them more money also won't cause them to create better content. They can't even fix bugs in their game in a timely manner. It's pathetic.

Being the cheapest MMO gets you the cheapest playerbase.

[xellink.7568]

4 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Chrono gave both boons,. then did ~5k dps.

Now supports do 32-37k.

Sorry I don't get your point. because you quoted my statement in response to the 100%+ comment, which implies that DPS has doubled. I am merely pointing out that the statement isn't factual with regards to peak dps and now you are deviating from that intention/topic. I do not wish that my statement be quoted for other purposes, because it does not have other intention other than the above, neither does it state my support nor disapproval of the high DPS, and it should not be used in such a manner.

Besides that, I also referenced a 39k video back in the day. Sure its selective, so are builds. There is better knowledge sharing now and builds perform better. Apart from the outliers due to Relic of Akeem, many of the overperforming builds are nerfed in the latest patch. I think 40k peak is probably what Anet is looking at and we didn't go 100%+ more than the original peaks and total DPS. 

On top of golem benchmarks, this data is substantiated by wingman data, where DPS peaks since user level reached a substantial amount. You can check the vale guardian benchmarks for the last 6 years since feb 2018 when wingman started to have a substantial amount of users. Prior data is incomplete due to underusage and a 11111 hammer guardian auto attack build benched at 27k and this build has never been changed. DPS peaked at 28k to 35k on actual fights for the last 6 years without much changes. The recent nerfs demonstrate Anet's intention to keep actual dps peaks closer to 28k rather than 35k. 

 

Now to your topic on boons. Chrono gave quickness and alac to 10 players. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by xellink.7568

[Luthan.5236]

It is also needed though - can help new players to catch up faster on certain stuff .... + the new content probably was designed with that new power balance in mind. And we don't want to need forever to kill the latest mobs just because the older stuff is too easy.

The game is more than just the damage and killing mobs - I'd rather do that faster so I have more time for stuff like JPs, achievements and the exploring. Was never really hard anyways. (Maybe HoT at the release without the later power creep after it? Did not play it at release. But I played the HoT maps with the elite spec that got released with HoT - not using any stuff that got released later. Though I read they also made adjustments to the map/balancing itself there with it being harder at the original release.)

Bosses and stuff - in instanced content (at least the stuff I have played now - only the "easier" stuff) ... seemed to be mainly mechanics though. Letting them hit harder (so you can't just out-tank it with higher tanky stats) would be the way to go to make it "harder" - I guess? Damage mainly means faster vs slower. (Comes in handy when some trash mobs are killed faster ... they then have less time to do damage to you.)

[Passerbye.6291]

18 minutes ago, Luthan.5236 said:

It is also needed though - can help new players to catch up faster on certain stuff .... + the new content probably was designed with that new power balance in mind. And we don't want to need forever to kill the latest mobs just because the older stuff is too easy.

The problem with this mindset is that you are actively selecting to have powercreep, then introduce new content in line with said powercreep to have fights last roughly the same amount of time. In doing so, you are making every single piece of content that was introduced prior to said new content easier, faster, and eventually braindead, because there is a certain point where the damage numbers we have available to us allow us to break encounters, phase bosses before they are able to go through their mechanics. The simplest example to this is gorseval, keep in mind that this is a really low dps check so this has been how it is done for a very long time, maybe from the beginning, but, it should serve as a fair point still. When was the last time you joined a wing 1 run and people broke the wind wall and glided up to avoid the gorseval nuke instead of bursting it to 66%, 33% and finally 0% before the boss gets the nuke off? Even training groups very rarely do the actual mechanics in this fight. Similarly, with how strong healing is for instance, almost everyone ignores boneskinner mechanics, to this day, I never bothered to learn the mechanics properly for that fight, to me, it is just, avoid the cone, strafe left or right out of cluster of ground effects in sync with your group, remain stacked, if you feel like not being too much of a burden on your healer, dodge/block the jumps and bring a projectile hate dome. Similarly, you can bypass entire phases of fractal 99/99 cm if you have sufficient damage for instance. 

Meanwhile, all the problems related to old content becoming irrelevant over time, requiring frequent updates to their balance (btw old content is a lot more than any given new content in the game) can easily be avoided if you avoided powercreep and balanced classes around a healthy target dps number, support/heal capability determined by the balance team.
Instead, a lot of people advocate for powercreep, not even paying heed to what others warn them about. Seriously, in what world is it easier to constantly tune 10 years' worth of content whenever you drop an expansion, which they intend to do every year now, than to just not powercreep the game to give some momentary dopamine boost to people?

Edited September 27, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[Solanaar.3714]

20 minutes ago, Luthan.5236 said:

Bosses and stuff - in instanced content (at least the stuff I have played now - only the "easier" stuff) ... seemed to be mainly mechanics though. Letting them hit harder (so you can't just out-tank it with higher tanky stats) would be the way to go to make it "harder" - I guess? Damage mainly means faster vs slower. (Comes in handy when some trash mobs are killed faster ... they then have less time to do damage to you.)

You got that right: bosses are mechanics. But your solution is incorrect. Hard hitting bosses are irrelevant when your DPS is so high you skip mechanics. The only thing that would do is make mistakes more punishing.

It's like with any game where the difficulty slider just increases enemy health and damage. That's not more difficult. That's bad Game Design. It's a tedium and boring. No new challenges. Provided before high damage or health didn't trivialize challenges.

The solution is actually reducing the DPS and survivability, to make sure you can't face tank or skip mechanics.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Solanaar.3714

[Luthan.5236]

With that they would have to balance new content to ... require the same amount of dps than the previous content.
Problem: They actually want certain stuff (the increased dps) to also be amongst the selling points of the new expansions.

If the new stuff was just "different build options with the same dps" less people might buy it (I would have preferred it!  would also have meant less feeling forced to always play the best e-specs ... core also interesting as alternative) because of that. (And it seems the other content is not just enough and there are people that mainly buy because of that.)

For the bosses they could also increase health or have them trigger certain mechanics faster/earlier. (Might be punishing though ... for people that do not have the latest expansion.) I feel like ... a T3 rift does is not completed tooo fast or the mobs there killed too fast. (Might also be an upscaling issue there though - with other players in the group being too weak not making up for the upscale enough.) Just tuning down the pure dps without making other tweaks will lead to other problems. (Certain stuff feeling too slow to be completed then.)

So I don't think it is that simple.

Also: Open world should be the main focus. I doubt anyone cares about some raid boss (content barely anyone of the playerbase plays). That stuff can be balanced as well - but always with having in mind that it should never make open world stuff feel even grindier.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Luthan.5236

[Passerbye.6291]

1 hour ago, Luthan.5236 said:

Also: Open world should be the main focus. I doubt anyone cares about some raid boss (content barely anyone of the playerbase plays). That stuff can be balanced as well - but always with having in mind that it should never make open world stuff feel even grindier.

Why would you even suggest balancing the game around open world?
In open world, anything goes, you could literally drop the dps numbers to 50% of what they are now and people would still roll over open world content. You balance the game taking into consideration what each class/build is capable of achieving when executed to perfection, you then account for how feasible said perfect execution is, how likely the build is to have high dps uptime, how much auxiliary benefits it provides, be it utility, tankiness, buffs or even healing. You then tune the numbers accounting for those things.

So simply put, a class like rifle mechanist with almost perfect dps uptime and incredible ease of execution, on demand mobility and incredible CC output would have an inherently lower dps cap, but it would win out with how reliable it is. This class would then have a spot for being reliable. It likely wouldn't get picked by people capable of executing more difficult rotations, but it would serve as a safe pick for those who find it difficult to play some other builds.

Similarly, a glass cannon build restricted almost entirely to melee (therefore lower dps uptime) with little no no auxiliary benefit and difficult execution would have a higher dps ceiling. It would require perfect encounter knowledge and great execution to reach said numbers, but it would be there for people willing to take up that challenge.
The most difficult class wouldn't necessarily do the highest dps all the time as that would force a linear hierarchy among the classes, one based on difficulty, but you would make it so that super easy builds wouldn't outdo builds with complex rotations.

The opportunity cost needs to be factored in when balancing classes, simply making the easiest, most utilitarian build doing the same damage as a selfish, melee-only build would strictly push the playerbase towards playing the former one.

[Astralporing.1957]

21 hours ago, xellink.7568 said:

Now to your topic on boons. Chrono gave quickness and alac to 10 players. 

No, it didn't. You needed two chronos for that. At some point chrono support didn't even work properly without a secondary, external source of alack and quick, which is why it wasn't really a meta in Fractals even when its position in Raids was untouchable.

Edit: what i meant is that while chrono did give quick and alac to 10 players, it wasn't giving perma upkeep of those - and that it rotation (which means also its boon generation) suffered significantly if it had to depend only on its own quick and alac. For full coverage you needed two chronos.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Solanaar.3714]

On 9/27/2023 at 12:24 PM, Luthan.5236 said:

With that they would have to balance new content to ... require the same amount of dps than the previous content..

No. Gw2 works different to other popular MMOs in that it has horizontal progression instead of vertical. You DON'T get stronger with each new expansion (at least that's what should happen). Once you hit max level you can do ANY content, be it new or several years old.

On 9/27/2023 at 12:24 PM, Luthan.5236 said:

Problem: They actually want certain stuff (the increased dps) to also be amongst the selling points of the new expansions.

That is quite the assumption and I would like to hear your sources because I've never seen anything being advertised like that. I'm very sure that is not true. Weapon master training? New choices. New weapons? New choices. Easier skyscale? Lower bar of entry. The new skills for skyscale? The only thing that's even close to a new ability that could give people the ability to deal more damage but that is very very far fetched. More likely it's a consolation price for people who got skyscale already and to entice them to do the new masteries and introduce some QoL. What's left? Oh yes relics.

Relics is the thing... And maybe that's the reason you deduced they are pushing more DPS as a selling point. And if you'd look at the numbers that would be true, they are quite overtuned. But I don't think that was intended.

And using common sense it becomes quite obvious they aren't pushing higher DPS. Because that would trivialize and invalidate old content: a huge selling point of GW2. Why would they throw away raids, world bosses, fractals, and strikes, just to give people the feeling if they buy the new expansion they will be stronger? That would only attract people that delight in being stronger than others because they own content others don't and the GW2 community is the exact opposite of that. Oh and people who are afraid of missing out but GW2 already proved they are actively working against that, e.g. the wizard vault.

On 9/27/2023 at 12:24 PM, Luthan.5236 said:

If the new stuff was just "different build options with the same dps" less people might buy it (I would have preferred it!  would also have meant less feeling forced to always play the best e-specs ... core also interesting as alternative) because of that. .

I'm sad You feel that way. Yes there are meta builds, there always are. But compared to other games GW2 is pretty well balanced. There is barely any, if any at all builds that can't put out decent numbers if played correctly. So don't feel forced to play this or that just cause hardstuck or metabattle says it is top tier. Play what's fun. Mukluk just recently released LI 3 button builds that can get 25-30k DPS. So there's usually an Alternative that doesn't require an expansion. Expansions are simply new options and Playstyles.