Ranged/Melee Imbalance is a Fundamental Problem.

[AliamRationem.5172]

47 minutes ago, Panda.1967 said:

this actually isn't quite accurate... there are 2 possibilities when it comes to encounters like that regarding ranged DPS uptime... 1 where ranged DPS stays out of range of the mechanics and gets 100% uptime but suffers a significant loss in DPS due to reduced boon uptimes... and the other where ranged DPS moves with the melee death ball and only gets a marginal 1-2% DPS uptime increase over melee due to losing LoS, incorrect facing, and several strong ranged abilities being interrupted by movement.

On paper "the ranged advantage" is 100% uptime... in practice it's only 100% uptime if they sacrifice on boons.

I play primarily ranged builds, and I have to spend almost as much time as melee moving and unable to attack bosses due to mechanics... anytime I stop to attack I have to immediately move again in almost every boss encounter. And if I'm not staying with the melee DPS my DPS suffers due to lack of boons.

Fair.  10% time spent out of melee does not equate to 10% full DPS uptime.  It's still purely an advantage to have range.  In any event, I think we're in a pretty good spot as far as that goes currently.  So all I'm saying is that it should be appropriately factored in when balancing.  I'd have more confidence if it didn't seem like every time they make big changes they seem to develop temporary amnesia and we end up with overpowered ranged DPS as happened with both the current expansion and the previous one.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 9/18/2023 at 11:05 AM, Linnael.1069 said:

This is a good idea but too ambitious for ANET. 
 

IMO the balance should be focused on actually interesting content where you actually have to move and do things. Clearly there can’t be an even playing field for both the content that matters and the content that is just standing still in a stack with no thought. 
 

Ask yourself why you don’t see everyone in open world playing scourge? It is highest DPS, most comfortable, most easy by a long shot. It’s because that content doesn’t care at all about balance lol. People talking about the “blob”: let’s be real you would not notice or care if melee was a solid 20-30 percent better DPS than the ranged weapons you use for tagging. 

We should keep balance discussions focused on the situations where it is actually relevant. If you keep the mindless stacking DPS equivalent between melee and range, you are just saying you prefer to balance that at the sacrifice of balance for actually interesting gameplay.

 

Thank you. You are one of the few persons here with a good brain.

The people arguing over this topic will always be arguing over it because their mentality of the game shapes and fuels their own problems.

People complained just recently about inequality in dps across all the specs when they weren’t equal…now that DPS is basically equal (at 40k) people complain about why they are equal. It’s a never ending argument and people can see it coming from a mile away if they just gave a little bit of their effort into looking deeper into it then just “me do number to boss” mentality

People offering ridiculous solutions like giving supports unlimited range…The same hardcore crowd that says they want difficulty also wants the game to be trivialized like this…how many walking contradictions will it take for folks to see that they fuel thier own problems like an ouroborus.

Anyway rant over, sorry. I basically am saying I agree with this statement here and interesting gameplay should always be priority and this goes for pretty much the whole game; it’s ruleset and mechanics whether they are encounters or skills. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Thank you. You are one of the few persons here with a good brain.

The people arguing over this topic will always be arguing over it because their mentality of the game shapes and fuels their own problems.

People complained just recently about inequality in dps across all the specs when they weren’t equal…now that DPS is basically equal (at 40k) people complain about why they are equal. It’s a never ending argument and people can see it coming from a mile away if they just gave a little bit of their effort into looking deeper into it then just “me do number to boss” mentality

People offering ridiculous solutions like giving supports unlimited range…The same hardcore crowd that says they want difficulty also wants the game to be trivialized like this…how many walking contradictions will it take for folks to see that they fuel thier own problems like an ouroborus.

Anyway rant over, sorry. I basically am saying I agree with this statement here and interesting gameplay should always be priority and this goes for pretty much the whole game; it’s ruleset and mechanics whether they are encounters or skills. 

You're playing the wrong game.  This one decided to remove interesting mechanics and replace them with nothing.  Spamming close range area effects for boons/heals isn't any more or less interesting than spamming wider range area effects.  It just wouldn't matter much either way because we're still stacking for lack of a tank to keep the boss in position.

[Stx.4857]

Take every weapon and normalize the dps.  Start off with a budget of 125% dps.  Then start taxing based on every benefit the weapon has:

 

900 range - 5%
1200 range - 8%
Built in AoE - 5%
Self boons - 5%
Group boons - 8%
CC - 5%
Non-damage conditions - 5%
Mobility - 5% 

 

Etc etc 

 

The issue is, some ranged weapons just have zero downside, and some melee weapons just have no advantages at all.  I think from a strictly PvE perspective, you don’t want ranged weapons to just straight up deal less damage, because that would deter players from using them.  But you can give ranged weapons less other good things, or give melee weapons more other good things to make them both worth bringing to a fight.  

[Arewn.2368]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:25 AM, Stx.4857 said:

If you straight up make ranged weapons deal less damage than melee, then no one will ever use them.  
 

My suggestion would be to try and balance all weapons to have equal dps.  Give melee weapons additional advantages for the cost of being in melee.  That could be in the form of defense, group utility, mobility, boons, built in cleave or heavier AoE, whatever.   

I've had some nice moments with spell breaker where I can just stand in the bad to greed some extra damage, which nicely exemplifies this idea.

But there's still some problems with it. I still do zero damage in situations where I can't reach the boss. And reduced damage when the boss moves around a lot.  

And on the flip side, the build can probably be considered unfairly tanky in a lot of situation. Is it a good thing for the game if they make all melee builds so tough that they can ignore mechanics? 

A mixed approach is probably needed, and they are definitely not doing that right now.

Imo one strong factor should be that range comes at the cost of mobility. Melee skills should rarely be animation locked, while ranged skills should be more often.

A lot of Ele builds get terribly screwed on this front. They are very squishy, forced into melee, and have a bunch of skills with animation locks.

Then on the flip side you have builds like Virt, with 1200 range, decent defense, and almost no animation locks.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Arewn.2368

[Passerbye.6291]

I'll preface this by saying, I'm a ranged player, and almost always a caster in games I play, so much so that I see better from afar. On one hand, I hate the boonball strat we have had for years in this game where, barring any mechanics forcing splits or range, you just merge into this abomination of flesh stacked on top of one another and blast the boss. On the other, it does feel unfair to do the same damage as a strictly melee build when stacked, and have them drop to 0 damage while you still get to do damage at varying efficiencies depending on your build as well as the circumstance, whether you have boons or the boss has condis etc. The fact that the ranged classes we currently have tend to be on the tanky side doesn't help this problem either, as you'd usually see melee characters be sturdier to allow for more mistakes while you give the guys at range tools to avoid damage in the first place.

Currently we have a game where you literally walk up to a boss and then draw your bow, which feels awful when you want to enjoy a ranged playstyle. We even have skills that encourage melee playstyle by itself on ranged builds, like mesmer gs2 requiring an ally or another enemy to bounce in the first place or dagger 2 not shotgunning if you are away from your target or that one virtuoso trait that gives you extra damage when within medium range, making it clearly suboptimal to be away from the target in the first place. While these serve to close the advantage range has over purely melee builds, it still won't solve the problem as less of something is always going to be a bigger number than 0.

That being said, I'd love to be rid of the meta of stacking up on top of one another to maximize damage in this game. But this should be done in a way that isn't unfair to melee builds. If a class has only melee weapons that are viable, then that build should have something extra to make it more useful when it can do its thing to make it a reasonable pick over ranged, meanwhile range should overperform it where it can make use of its advantage. I don't think this should be strictly in damage, or rather, it shouldn't be a big gap in damage, as this would just push us to use melee everywhere and try to get around mechanics that prevent melee stacking by using specific supports instead of using the range advantage in the first place. I feel like it should be some form of auxiliary benefit, it could be making melee tankier, heavier on CC, maybe boon extension similar to what rangers/heralds have to make them more desirable in content where your dps uptime won't suffer.

All that being said, I don't think this will happen, as we have inherent imbalances between classes as well as  their weapon options in the first place. For instance, herald and vindicator are both considered meta right now for what they do, vindi being a massive high burst power dps with amazing cleave as well as great sustained damage and herald being by far the best quickdps in the game with a massive 600 radius on all its boons as well as the capability of providing a much wider range of boons with high uptime compared to the other options for the same role. Now, both these builds are strictly melee, and yet remain meta over a lot of other power dps/boon dps options. This is due to a combination of things, namely their ease of use, utility, burst/sustained damage. So, I don't think we'll be able to get a blanket change that will solve the issue between melee and range any time soon as it would be a massive undertaking and even if we ended up with say, ranged weapons doing less damage and melee doing more damage, this would further solidify the position revenant currently golds, which in turn woulr require yet another look into the classes, after all, why should any pure power dps class have less burst or aoe cleave than vindi, or why would anyone ever play a class that gives boons in 240-360 radius instead of herald if they have nothing to show for it.

I do see that there is a problem, I just don't see it getting resolved any time soon, not without a long period of difficulty and balance issues, not that we aren't used to those.

[Voyant.1327]

On 12/5/2023 at 7:09 AM, Passerbye.6291 said:

 That being said, I'd love to be rid of the meta of stacking up on top of one another to maximize damage in this game. .

It makes endgame content insanely boring and undesirable to play, the game has the best mobility/mechanics feel out of any MMO... Yet the stacking mentality makes it pointless.

And if you're successful in creating a way to not play this way you tend to get nothing but grief from the player base used to doing it this way. I've tried to introduce people to non-stack alternatives and its like I kicked their puppy. 

Boons in general are this games problem though, they're simply the strongest aspect in the game. The least they could do is just increase the range so to provide more playstyles vs. show up, stand here, facetank boss. 

This is the only MMO I've played where the raiding is less fun then OW content. Give me a good meta event over basically fighting glorified training dummies. 

[Burnfall.9573]

Too Powerful, or All-Powerful?

"In the paper design balance pass, every element should have been given a role to fill.  Sometimes an element breaks the balance by breaking its designated role.  A “glass cannon” that can hold his own in a melee fight.  A long-distance weapon that is just as effective at point-blank range.  The solution in this case is not to weaken the element, but to restrict it so that its strength cannot be applied in as many situations.

Often it takes ingenuity to limit a weapon without weakening it, but it isn’t as difficult as it might seem initially.  A global weakness will affect the player in every situation, so a heavy-handed global weakness will be a constant irritation.  But a specific limitation will only be felt when an element is being used outside its role, which a player can learn to avoid, eliminating the annoyance entirely.  Nobody complains that their fancy sports car doesn’t work underwater, they just stay on the bridge."

[arazoth.7290]

In that case I want realistic long range weapons if it has close range disadvantage ===> standing in base and shooting people far away in the game. Since real life weapons can shoot that far too.

 

ps. ranged weapons are fine

[Mell.4873]

Most true ranged rotation either leave you somewhat stationary or place immovable AoE so it think it's a fair trade off. 

Longbow Barrage being a good example of this. 

Maybe you could finds a few 900 range weapons that have the best of both worlds. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Zenith.7301]

You people keep getting this wrong. The problem isn't that range do the same dps as melee weapons. The problem is that the combat revolves around stacking for boon share and heals.

 

There are no mechanics exclusive to range vs. Melee weapon loadouts like in WoW and FFXIV. Mostly because you are constricted around boonshare paradigm of stacking for boons and heals.

If characters with equipped ranged weapon loadouts had specific mechanics to handle and lower uptime like melee, it would be balanced.

Instead, what you people lobby for is a return to the greatsword meta with thw odd staff ele of old hugging the boss's face. To hell with that.

Fix the actual combat and encounter design.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Zenith.7301

[starlinvf.1358]

 

On 12/26/2023 at 9:26 AM, Zenith.7301 said:

You people keep getting this wrong. The problem isn't that range do the same dps as melee weapons. The problem is that the combat revolves around stacking for boon share and heals.

 

There are no mechanics exclusive to range vs. Melee weapon loadouts like in WoW and FFXIV. Mostly because you are constricted around boonshare paradigm of stacking for boons and heals.

If characters with equipped ranged weapon loadouts had specific mechanics to handle and lower uptime like melee, it would be balanced.

Instead, what you people lobby for is a return to the greatsword meta with thw odd staff ele of old hugging the boss's face. To hell with that.

Fix the actual combat and encounter design.

 

Its a circular problem.  We Melee Ball because boon share is limited AOE.  Boon is limited AOE because targeting is too clunky, and they are explicitly trying to get away from stand and cast combat.  But Ranged DPS is weaker, because its inherently lower risk.  Melee is stronger because its higher Risk.  But the ONLY reason to take the higher risk is because of the greater DPS.  But you know where this problem is totally different?  PvP.   

The PvE encounter design is a victim of player base's general inability to play the game.  All the enemies are lumps that straight line, soak damage, and are mostly melee.  Any time the AI has shown any ounce of awareness, the player base lost its mind over it.  This dates back to GW1, and the 55 Monk farms.  

What PvE needs is to mimic more of PvP combat dynamics.  But last time they tried this, the player base revolted.  This was the entire idea behind the Mordrem.  Enemies with specific counter tactics, and relatively low thresholds to shut down on an individual basis. Ultimately the only reason this fell apart, is because Core had poor availability to the desired CCs, and the mobs were not scaled with that in mind.   Especs over compensated with very high CC availability, and too much damage, causing most mobs to not be dangerous enough with bigger health pools. 

Until this happens across the board with every mob's move set being redesigned, and the AI being more responsive to attacks, the core of all problems with the game's combat ends up being "Damage is the be all end all solution to all problems".   Lower density of enemies, but each being a major threat in the own right.   CCs need to matter more, and the cool down timers retuned  on two new assumptions.....  A. that CCs are either frequently needed, or heavier impact, to gear toward types of targets; and B. when upscaling for events, expand the mechanics of the Defiance bar for Inclusive and Exclusive CC vulnerability.  The Defiance bar could theoretically solve this problem if employed across the board ( even to trash mobs), by focusing on selective vulnerability and expanding the side effects of the vulnerability.

TLDR; we have to make fights less DPS centeric at every level of combat, and rework the enemy ecosystem to accomplish what the Mordrem failed to.    The more PvE resembles PvP type fights, the greater the clarity in play and counter play.  And yeah, I am suggesting we roll back and try to undo all the things that made PvP more like PvE in a bad way.  

[Zenith.7301]

Randomly dodging and dashing around isn't what makes for good PvE encounters. If anything, it just punishes melee even more than ranged loadouts. You can see it in EoD and SotO open world design. The PoF skating mobs dashing all over. These heavily penalize melee constrained by 6-10 sec cd movement skills.

It's even worse for mesmers, who rely on the clones running over to mobs.

Random dodging and leaps like the HoT frogs just penalize build>spend classes and specs and reward steady damage specs.

Just look at all the EoD strikes, but especially the 1st and second. All the dashing about of the bosses on top of aoe circle spread mechanics penalizes melee, which is why engineer/specter/virtuoso were so strong.

More PvP like behavior does not work in PvE, because it often applies randomly without much logic, and emphasizes having a spec with high uptime and consistent damage delivery instead of bursts which can be entirely whiffed by a dash or random dodge. The boon spam ala PvP style that needed to be corrupted subsequently incentivized bringing scourges or mesmers, restricting DPS build variety.

What PvE needs is role based mechanics based on weapon loadout (so you force a spread of ranged and melee weapon loadouts), expanding the range of boon application to 1200, and making healing more efficient on isolated targets instead of needing to ball up because healers heal in cd bound bursts of healing instead of consistently with spammable spells.

The lack of consistent tank mechanics is also a problem for encounter design. Bringing back the relevance of toughness checks just creating increased aggro and giving more low cd access to the taunt condition for tank specs giving a large enmity boost on CC immune mobs will fix that.

Edited January 2 by Zenith.7301