Ranged/Melee Imbalance is a Fundamental Problem.

[prototypedragon.1406]

At this point in anet's so called budget melees only hope would probably be 1,000 range teleport shadow step utilities ,that or they would just throw more boons at it and everything would be fine👍🤫

[Tammuz.7361]

On 9/17/2023 at 5:22 PM, Linnael.1069 said:

Anet, why are you balancing 1200+ range options to have the same DPS as melee options?

It's painfully obvious that there will ALWAYS be an issue with scourge/virt/etc. when they can just do constant DPS from anywhere, while melee has to stop and run around for mechanics. Can we please remind ANET that range is a big advantage which should come with a trade-off? They seem to have forgotten that.

try playing virtuoso in actual content at 1200 range and getting anywhere near the golem numbers.

You dont get boons from the rest of the party at 1200 range, meaning your going to do either do a fraction of the DPS, or your going to have to play mele to get boons to get anywhere near the golem numbers.  Also c.virt doesnt have much (any) utility outside of ranged damage and cant self buff (even might stacks).  DPS is literally the ONLY thing the class has.

Scourge is 900 range, not 1200.  Though with its insane best-in-game AOE and easy rotation ... okay yeah, scourge needs a bit of a nerf.

I just hope they dont nuke harbinger into oblivion with a straight pistol nerf later today.  Harbinger having a much more complex rotation, resource management, and has to be played in mele range for shroud 3+4 to achieve its DPS numbers which are already a solid 6k under scourge vs the golem.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Tammuz.7361

[peperoncino.2516]

5 hours ago, Tammuz.7361 said:

try playing virtuoso in actual content at 1200 range and getting anywhere near the golem numbers.

ah, a timeless question to you then - "is ability to attack from huge range has an advantage over melee?". for now, i can only and definitely see it as an advantage, for there are no penalties to using ranged weapon in melee, all the while 80% of content is balanced in a way that you cannot always continue to stay in melee range.

Edited September 26, 2023 by peperoncino.2516

[Astralporing.1957]

On 9/25/2023 at 10:57 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

That was ANerf's vision while Jon Peters was still on the balance team. Somehow the idea that melee should deal more damage than ranged was thrown out of the window with his departure.

Perhaps because that vision ended with the only range weapon being used in anything more demanding than OW being ele staff (and that one was only because the other weapons were even worse, and because ele didn't really have any melee weapon at all). It took a long time (years in some cases) to make all those ranged weapons to be worth something and not just be a meme.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Perhaps because that vision ended with the only range weapon being used in anything more demanding than OW being ele staff (and that one was only because the other weapons were even worse, and because ele didn't really have any melee weapon at all). It took a long time (years in some cases) to make all those ranged weapons to be worth something and not just be a meme.

What are you even talking about.

Staff ele was good, you could oneshot with it, but d/d was king.

Ranged shatter was a thing, with staff and gs.

Necro always used staff.

Ranger lb was always absurd.

Engi rifle with static discharge was a thing.

Ranged was always used. Nowadays some of the ranged weapons deal way more damage than they should, ranger lb being the biggest offender.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

52 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

What are you even talking about.

Staff ele was good, you could oneshot with it, but d/d was king.

Ranged shatter was a thing, with staff and gs.

Necro always used staff.

Ranger lb was always absurd.

Engi rifle with static discharge was a thing.

Ranged was always used. Nowadays some of the ranged weapons deal way more damage than they should, ranger lb being the biggest offender.

 

You speak of PvP. I speak of PvE. Completely different things.

[rotten.9753]

On 9/26/2023 at 12:15 PM, Tammuz.7361 said:

try playing virtuoso in actual content at 1200 range and getting anywhere near the golem numbers.

You dont get boons from the rest of the party at 1200 range, meaning your going to do either do a fraction of the DPS, or your going to have to play mele to get boons to get anywhere near the golem numbers.  Also c.virt doesnt have much (any) utility outside of ranged damage and cant self buff (even might stacks).  DPS is literally the ONLY thing the class has.

Scourge is 900 range, not 1200.  Though with its insane best-in-game AOE and easy rotation ... okay yeah, scourge needs a bit of a nerf.

I just hope they dont nuke harbinger into oblivion with a straight pistol nerf later today.  Harbinger having a much more complex rotation, resource management, and has to be played in mele range for shroud 3+4 to achieve its DPS numbers which are already a solid 6k under scourge vs the golem.

You can get above 0 DPS while melee specs have 0 DPS when mechanics happen, especially in new strikes. I would say that's advantageous to deal damage during mechanics.

[Sweetbread.3678]

Ideally we'd have a situation where ranged and melee weapon archetypes both have a specific spectrum of niches that required swapping between them as the battlefield evolved (the way weapon swapping was originally sold) instead of as just part of a dps rotation. Something like melee for gap closers, higher aoe break damage, and big cleave dps on slower, accessible targets; and ranged for defensive mobility, area control, and lower but more consistent damage on mobile/inaccessible, single targets; and then the dps and power budget for each of those weapons being determined by it's consistency (ease of use), defensive utility, offensive utility, mobility, area denial, break damage, ramp up time, etc.. In reality, the entire power budget philosophy for this game in general is severely out of whack, and there's a couple of things that I see preventing it from being properly addressed until fixed: boon application ranges and variety in encounter design / combat scenarios.

First, they definitely need to just bite the bullet and finally increase boon application range for instanced pve content; the whole boonball thing has always been awkward, inorganic and dumb, and severely holds back encounter and class design. It's hard to incorporate a proper range tax (in my definition: universally lower, but more consistent damage that drops off the closer the target is; think Spatial Surge with much more severe scaling) when everyone is required to be point blank the majority of the fight. The ranged damage penalty should be built into the archetype, not because anyone actually playing more than 5 feet from the boss is just denied boon access; if there's going to be a real damage tax then ranged should actually have the freedom to, you know, actually be at range.

Secondly, the encounter design and combat scenarios need to be more dynamic and promote swapping and having a well-rounded kit, where going pure melee dps or pure ranged dps would effectively be shooting yourself in the foot, because enemy archetypes and tactics are varied enough to counter it. Combat should promote swapping as the situation arises: go ranged if something is inaccessible (seriously how does this game have no flying units?), empowered against melee, or mobile/evasive but squishy; go melee if something is less mobile, open for attack, needs cleaving, or has strong anti-range abilities. As the enemy dynamically swaps tactics so too should the player/group. There should definitely be a ranged tax, but there should also be an equal amount of use cases for it to exist.

Melee and ranged should have always been two halves of a player's kit, not an either or situation.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Sweetbread.3678

[Manpag.6421]

^ I agree boon application is the real issue, and should be bigger across the board to allow players the freedom to move about without detrimenting themself or others.

Assuming that isn’t going to change, though, I’d actually be interested to see what would happen if all ranged weapons were actually buffed at range to be more powerful than melee, but had a substantial damage falloff when used in melee. If ranged weapons actually had better damage potential, but only when used at range, it might cause a shake up of this strategy.

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 9/28/2023 at 12:03 AM, Sweetbread.3678 said:

Ideally we'd have a situation where ranged and melee weapon archetypes both have a specific spectrum of niches that required swapping between them as the battlefield evolved (the way weapon swapping was originally sold) instead of as just part of a dps rotation. Something like melee for gap closers, higher aoe break damage, and big cleave dps on slower, accessible targets; and ranged for defensive mobility, area control, and lower but more consistent damage on mobile/inaccessible, single targets; and then the dps and power budget for each of those weapons being determined by it's consistency (ease of use), defensive utility, offensive utility, mobility, area denial, break damage, ramp up time, etc.. In reality, the entire power budget philosophy for this game in general is severely out of whack, and there's a couple of things that I see preventing it from being properly addressed until fixed: boon application ranges and variety in encounter design / combat scenarios.

First, they definitely need to just bite the bullet and finally increase boon application range for instanced pve content; the whole boonball thing has always been awkward, inorganic and dumb, and severely holds back encounter and class design. It's hard to incorporate a proper range tax (in my definition: universally lower, but more consistent damage that drops off the closer the target is; think Spatial Surge with much more severe scaling) when everyone is required to be point blank the majority of the fight. The ranged damage penalty should be built into the archetype, not because anyone actually playing more than 5 feet from the boss is just denied boon access; if there's going to be a real damage tax then ranged should actually have the freedom to, you know, actually be at range.

Secondly, the encounter design and combat scenarios need to be more dynamic and promote swapping and having a well-rounded kit, where going pure melee dps or pure ranged dps would effectively be shooting yourself in the foot, because enemy archetypes and tactics are varied enough to counter it. Combat should promote swapping as the situation arises: go ranged if something is inaccessible (seriously how does this game have no flying units?), empowered against melee, or mobile/evasive but squishy; go melee if something is less mobile, open for attack, needs cleaving, or has strong anti-range abilities. As the enemy dynamically swaps tactics so too should the player/group. There should definitely be a ranged tax, but there should also be an equal amount of use cases for it to exist.

Melee and ranged should have always been two halves of a player's kit, not an either or situation.

There are a lot of problems with this.  First, extending boon range doesn't change the lack of threat mechanics or the lack of targeted healing and the UI to support it.  While it would make it easier to maintain boon uptime during split phases, players would still need to stack for healing and positioning against non-stationary bosses.

Designing encounters to require both range and melee from every player is also problematic.  First, not all classes have the ability to weapon swap.  Ele and engi players would be essentially forced into ranged builds.  Second, not all classes have viable power and condi weapons available to support both ranged and melee in the same build.  This would again feel forced as most would essentially have their weapon options predetermined by their chosen damage type and the necessity of having both a ranged and melee weapon set.

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 9/26/2023 at 4:15 AM, Tammuz.7361 said:

try playing virtuoso in actual content at 1200 range and getting anywhere near the golem numbers.

You dont get boons from the rest of the party at 1200 range, meaning your going to do either do a fraction of the DPS, or your going to have to play mele to get boons to get anywhere near the golem numbers.  Also c.virt doesnt have much (any) utility outside of ranged damage and cant self buff (even might stacks).  DPS is literally the ONLY thing the class has.

Scourge is 900 range, not 1200.  Though with its insane best-in-game AOE and easy rotation ... okay yeah, scourge needs a bit of a nerf.

I just hope they dont nuke harbinger into oblivion with a straight pistol nerf later today.  Harbinger having a much more complex rotation, resource management, and has to be played in mele range for shroud 3+4 to achieve its DPS numbers which are already a solid 6k under scourge vs the golem.

Try playing melee at 1200 range.  Why would you play melee at range, you ask?  Pay attention now because this is where the ranged advantage comes into play:  Because you're forced to by mechanics.  Any time this occurs, melee DPS = 0 while ranged DPS is able to continue.  Even if boons drop off, if you're forced to dodge or otherwise deal with mechanics, you're still able to continue attacking from range while melee are not.  It isn't about staying at range 100% of the fight, but about that percentage of time where everyone is forced out of melee.  DPS uptime is where the range advantage comes into play.  And as range is purely an advantage with no drawbacks, if you make range equal in DPS to melee it will always come out ahead in any fight that isn't a stationary golem.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

3 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

if you make range equal in DPS to melee it will always come out ahead in any fight that isn't a stationary golem.

Unless you give melee attacks additional utility/sustain so they can provide extra benefits that ranged attacks don't have while providing DPS. There are more ways to build balance than simple DPS numbers. 

Punishing melee skills for phase changes and boss mechanics is just as bad game design as having people with rifles stack in a melee ball just to get boons. 

[Shadow Chaser.1948]

On 9/28/2023 at 2:03 AM, Sweetbread.3678 said:

Ideally we'd have a situation where ranged and melee weapon archetypes both have a specific spectrum of niches that required swapping between them as the battlefield evolved (the way weapon swapping was originally sold) instead of as just part of a dps rotation. Something like melee for gap closers, higher aoe break damage, and big cleave dps on slower, accessible targets; and ranged for defensive mobility, area control, and lower but more consistent damage on mobile/inaccessible, single targets; and then the dps and power budget for each of those weapons being determined by it's consistency (ease of use), defensive utility, offensive utility, mobility, area denial, break damage, ramp up time, etc.. In reality, the entire power budget philosophy for this game in general is severely out of whack, and there's a couple of things that I see preventing it from being properly addressed until fixed: boon application ranges and variety in encounter design / combat scenarios.

First, they definitely need to just bite the bullet and finally increase boon application range for instanced pve content; the whole boonball thing has always been awkward, inorganic and dumb, and severely holds back encounter and class design. It's hard to incorporate a proper range tax (in my definition: universally lower, but more consistent damage that drops off the closer the target is; think Spatial Surge with much more severe scaling) when everyone is required to be point blank the majority of the fight. The ranged damage penalty should be built into the archetype, not because anyone actually playing more than 5 feet from the boss is just denied boon access; if there's going to be a real damage tax then ranged should actually have the freedom to, you know, actually be at range.

Secondly, the encounter design and combat scenarios need to be more dynamic and promote swapping and having a well-rounded kit, where going pure melee dps or pure ranged dps would effectively be shooting yourself in the foot, because enemy archetypes and tactics are varied enough to counter it. Combat should promote swapping as the situation arises: go ranged if something is inaccessible (seriously how does this game have no flying units?), empowered against melee, or mobile/evasive but squishy; go melee if something is less mobile, open for attack, needs cleaving, or has strong anti-range abilities. As the enemy dynamically swaps tactics so too should the player/group. There should definitely be a ranged tax, but there should also be an equal amount of use cases for it to exist.

Melee and ranged should have always been two halves of a player's kit, not an either or situation.

This is very good idea but it actually requires proper planning in game design. I'd love to see this type of strategy applied in game rather than stack on top of each other and swing your weapons with eye close and go through rotation numbers.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Shadow Chaser.1948

[Burnfall.9573]

On 9/17/2023 at 5:22 PM, Linnael.1069 said:

Anet, why are you balancing 1200+ range options to have the same DPS as melee options?

It's painfully obvious that there will ALWAYS be an issue with scourge/virt/etc. when they can just do constant DPS from anywhere, while melee has to stop and run around for mechanics. Can we please remind ANET that range is a big advantage which should come with a trade-off? They seem to have forgotten that.

Bad Design + Imbalance + Immunity + Invulnerability + Range + Melee = Fundamental Problem?

Bad Design Thief Profession - Deadeye, "LOL"

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[anbujackson.9564]

On 10/2/2023 at 6:12 PM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Unless you give melee attacks additional utility/sustain so they can provide extra benefits that ranged attacks don't have while providing DPS. There are more ways to build balance than simple DPS numbers. 

Punishing melee skills for phase changes and boss mechanics is just as bad game design as having people with rifles stack in a melee ball just to get boons. 

What benefits would that be? There are none besides boons. Class buffs got removed. 

Reflects? Can be done from range. Cc? Can be done from range too. Heal and boon application dont matter because you have supports for that. And ye, some dps can provide a bit from range too.

Cant think of anything else that might be relevant in PvE as dps.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

Blocks and combos are big ones. Bringing back retaliation for melee only would be nice. Also, Anet has a justified philosophy of lowering the damage of skills that can also provide utility. That gap could be lesser for melee weapons, allowing them to keep up more DPS when utility is needed versus ranged options. It's been a while since I was in game design, but these are just some quick and dirty ideas off the top of head. These concepts have worked in other games pretty well. A deeper dive into it would yield better options.

[Panda.1967]

The only way to make this work properly is to have ranged weapons do equal damage to melee weapons within melee range and then have their damage scale down as they move out of melee range based on how much DPS a melee build would lose from the average encounter mechanics that require them to move that far from the target. This means if no mechanics require melee to move beyond a certain distance from the enemy, then that distance is the maximum distance that ranged weapons damage decreases at, any distance beyond maintains that same damage. To do it any other way is just punishing ranged builds simply for being ranged. Any additional loss of DPS melee may experience because they moved too far is an individual skill issue and should never be used to determine balance.

[Barraind.7324]

  

On 9/21/2023 at 3:53 PM, Linnael.1069 said:

It's not like that in raids or hardest strikes

Your DPS on 'the hardest strikes' stand well into the bosses hitbox almost the entire fight, and times when they arent doing this they're running with their back turned / while the boss is invulnerable + dodge rolling / portaling in, with one single exception (that you can skip entirely with good dps unless you're doing GitV title runs).   Your dps in raids stands in roughly the same relative place, the only significant exception being Twin Largos, and thats mostly only an issue on CM, where you just cant play certain power melee classes (Bladesworn is fantastic because it lines up incredibly well, reaper has to interrupt every single shroud unless you delay all of them until right after a dash/strip, and at that point, dont play reaper) because their rotations are horrifically mistimed with the mechanics of dodges + platform clears assuming competent dps numbers. 

The only other place this has any relevance is Dhuum bombs, and the difference in damage there is something like 1 ability use, assuming you dont have a gap closer. 

 

We do not currently live in a world where dps does non-random mechanics (not counting q1 kite or q2 pylons either, because you're forced into incredibly specific builds), save, potentially, one dhuum green, and we dont live in a world where they're standing anywhere close to range unless they did a bad (or are doing q1 kite or q2 pylons). 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Barraind.7324

[Netrizhul.3429]

On 9/18/2023 at 12:06 AM, LadyKitty.6120 said:

Problem with nerfing ranged weapons to clearly perform lower than melee weapons is that nobody would use them in most of the instanced content.

YES BECAUSE GOD kitten HEALS AND BOONS RANGE. Give boons 900 range or atleast 600 range and sit back and see how many ranged players you will see in instanced content. Main problem is that whole god kitten game designed to force you to be in same spot as squad.

[Puck.3697]

On 9/17/2023 at 10:22 PM, Linnael.1069 said:

Anet, why are you balancing 1200+ range options to have the same DPS as melee options?

It's painfully obvious that there will ALWAYS be an issue with scourge/virt/etc. when they can just do constant DPS from anywhere, while melee has to stop and run around for mechanics. Can we please remind ANET that range is a big advantage which should come with a trade-off? They seem to have forgotten that

Brcause regardless of using melee or ranged weapons your stacked in melee. So regardless to what ur going to sit in melee. So why shouldn't they be equally balanced. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, Puck.3697 said:

Brcause regardless of using melee or ranged weapons your stacked in melee. So regardless to what ur going to sit in melee. So why shouldn't they be equally balanced. 

You could just read every thread on this subject to find the answer, but something tells me you're already aware that the "range advantage" comes into play during the times where either the boss is not stationary or mechanics require players to move out of melee range.  To put that in perspective, let's say that both the boss and the players are stationary and at melee range for 90% of the encounter.  In that scenario, the range advantage is 10% DPS uptime.  10% of the fight where range can attack while melee cannot.  Does it make more sense for you now?

[Puck.3697]

4 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

You could just read every thread on this subject to find the answer, but something tells me you're already aware that the "range advantage" comes into play during the times where either the boss is not stationary or mechanics require players to move out of melee range.  To put that in perspective, let's say that both the boss and the players are stationary and at melee range for 90% of the encounter.  In that scenario, the range advantage is 10% DPS uptime.  10% of the fight where range can attack while melee cannot.  Does it make more sense for you now?

And reversing the situation completely murders use of ranged weapons in that content. So rly how does it make things any better? 

And on wingman most of the top dpsers are melee. Lol, so something don't rly add up here. Virt sure is a ranged dps and tops some of them. 

But warriors seem to be top of the meter more regularly 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Puck.3697

[AliamRationem.5172]

Just now, Puck.3697 said:

And reversing the situation completely murders use of ranged weapons in that content. So rly how does it make things any better? 

That would at least create some parity between the two, making one or the other better depending upon the encounter.  As it stands, range is strictly an advantage with no downside.  Does that seem fair to you?

The ideal scenario would have been to design the game as a normal trinity game from the start.  That way we would have had tanks to control enemy positioning, with encounters designed with specific challenges for both ranged and melee classes, and support capable of targeting individuals players spread across the field as needed.  But instead we got stack-in-a-pile, which nobody likes.  And the borked solution: just force players to move sometimes and create a range/melee disparity.

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

That would at least create some parity between the two, making one or the other better depending upon the encounter.  As it stands, range is strictly an advantage with no downside.  Does that seem fair to you?

The ideal scenario would have been to design the game as a normal trinity game from the start.  That way we would have had tanks to control enemy positioning, with encounters designed with specific challenges for both ranged and melee classes, and support capable of targeting individuals players spread across the field as needed.  But instead we got stack-in-a-pile, which nobody likes.  And the borked solution: just force players to move sometimes and create a range/melee disparity.

But even right now. According to wingman warriors using a melee build are topping the list. 

So while right now we have both melee and ranged representation in every fight. You will cull it to melee only. 

Some classes best builds are ranged. Other classes best builds are melee. 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Puck.3697

[Panda.1967]

6 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

You could just read every thread on this subject to find the answer, but something tells me you're already aware that the "range advantage" comes into play during the times where either the boss is not stationary or mechanics require players to move out of melee range.  To put that in perspective, let's say that both the boss and the players are stationary and at melee range for 90% of the encounter.  In that scenario, the range advantage is 10% DPS uptime.  10% of the fight where range can attack while melee cannot.  Does it make more sense for you now?

this actually isn't quite accurate... there are 2 possibilities when it comes to encounters like that regarding ranged DPS uptime... 1 where ranged DPS stays out of range of the mechanics and gets 100% uptime but suffers a significant loss in DPS due to reduced boon uptimes... and the other where ranged DPS moves with the melee death ball and only gets a marginal 1-2% DPS uptime increase over melee due to losing LoS, incorrect facing, and several strong ranged abilities being interrupted by movement.

On paper "the ranged advantage" is 100% uptime... in practice it's only 100% uptime if they sacrifice on boons.

I play primarily ranged builds, and I have to spend almost as much time as melee moving and unable to attack bosses due to mechanics... anytime I stop to attack I have to immediately move again in almost every boss encounter. And if I'm not staying with the melee DPS my DPS suffers due to lack of boons.