Increase long range AoE pull cooldowns

[ArchonWing.9480]

8 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Have you seen some of the things people ask for to be removed or made easier in this game from PvE players in some of the other subforums here?  It tends to border on the absurd.  Players will always ask for stuff to be made easier.

PvE balance discussions are weird; usually they get upset over some other class doing 3% more damage on a golem, even though most of them will never reach golem dps and nobody fails content because of dps due  of power creep.

Well, that may not be true. Yesterday, some kittens made me do Twilight Arbor and that has some really weird design that forces you to use your brain to do mechanics beyond mindlessly hitting the boss. . Unacceptable, and nerf pls.

Edited October 9, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Chaba.5410]

7 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

PvE balance discussions are weird

Not even that.  They want ley-lines in Skywatch moved because apparently avoiding them is too difficult.  Or the guy who thought Ro Venombite is bugged because she has a heal mechanic and the guy runs a mish-mash of gear and does basically no damage.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[ArchonWing.9480]

Just now, Chaba.5410 said:

guy runs a mish-mash of gear and does basically no damage.

Man, that's just like Gw2 in general. No wonder why Anet keeps pushing that Cele.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

49 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I'm just shocked you can even land that skill at all. Btw what happens if you get reflected and aim it at someone above you?

This has happened a few times in which case i get pulled right next to the wall.

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 minutes ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

This has happened a few times in which case i get pulled right next to the wall.

Ah ok, sometimes there's weird stuff that happens. Like I get pulled in the air so high I can glide. 😑

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Man, that's just like Gw2 in general. No wonder why Anet keeps pushing that Cele.

Good point!  It makes sense now.

[prototypedragon.1406]

https://youtu.be/u0KPi0XkME8?si=sWl4eUcc5nGShRTr 1:00 yep pulls are quite interesting.

[ArchonWing.9480]

17 minutes ago, prototypedragon.1406 said:

https://youtu.be/u0KPi0XkME8?si=sWl4eUcc5nGShRTr 1:00 yep pulls are quite interesting.

lol well played.

Yea that's what I was asking about earlier though I haven't seen that lately. I recall it was also at hills too.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

• block
• reflect
• invulnerability
• stability
• dodge
• hide behind that bush

there, no need to thank me...

[ShadowCatz.8437]

16 hours ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

[...]

If you want to read it, you need to highlight the text.

@Chaba.5410Use <control + A> which will mark all text in your web browser. That will make text that is in the same colour as background easier to see if you are using Theme>Dark as background for reading on this forum.

[Justine.6351]

Had an enemy zerg boonball in our garrison the other night and we had no tag. Tried for 20 minutes trying to pull people out of position but only managed to pull the tag on top of my head and his zerg ran me over. Pulls are useless if your zerg has aegis/stability and allies who care.

People who want pulls nerfed are short sighted and only care if THEY get pulled. All cc is a means of making a target vulnerable to attack. If you are near the edge of a cliff while fighting, you might want to rethink your situation. If there is a sea of red below the wall you are standing on and marks start plopping all over it, you might want to rethink your situation. People who pull in defensive outnumbered scenarios are the real heroes in hard fights because they are giving the useless people targets that are actually killable.

[Chaba.5410]

18 hours ago, ShadowCatz.8437 said:

@Chaba.5410Use <control + A> which will mark all text in your web browser. That will make text that is in the same colour as background easier to see if you are using Theme>Dark as background for reading on this forum.

Yea, lol, thanks for the tip, guys.  My post intent was to show Xen what kind of eye burn his post looked like when not pasting as plain text.

[schokelmei.8271]

Am I the only that thinks after all these years that a defensive structure should give an advantage to the defender and not the attacker? Why is it working the other way around and walls are still a deathtrap for defenders?

[IndigoSundown.5419]

On 10/18/2023 at 5:14 AM, gebrechen.5643 said:

Am I the only that thinks after all these years that a defensive structure should give an advantage to the defender and not the attacker? Why is it working the other way around and walls are still a deathtrap for defenders?

I've always thought that walls should be an advantage for the defenders as they were in RL.  The only advantage GW2 walls offer is to (maybe) buy enough time for allies to respond.  While RL walls can protect defenders, that protection is not perfect.  What RL walls don't do is protect attackers, whereas GW2 walls do.

The attackers' advantages come from the way ground targeting works.  This has always seemed to me like an accident due to the nature of ground targeting.  Maybe ANet has done nothing to address the issue because they don't want to completely work ground targeting.  Maybe they haven't got a clue how to fix it.  Or, maybe, they have no motivation to fix it because they believe that organized or even semi-organized attacking groups should be able to brush off defenders, easily take structures and farm bags, whereas the role of pugs trying to defend is as the carriers of those bags.

[XenesisII.1540]

These aren't suppose to be "RL" walls. Walls are there to delay attackers from getting to the capture area, they are not there to give absolute immunity to everything standing on them, otherwise they would have made the walls 20ft tall so nothing can be touched up there and free fire your acs. Walls are high enough so both defenders and attackers can still interact with each other, you just have to actually pay attention on walls. You vs 20 people below you is obviously not going to end well for you if you're standing on the lip of the wall free lobbing aoes down below without defenses tools at your disposal.

This is a game, learn the rules of game and play around it, or continue to get yoinked like a durian fruit off a tree.

Two people who still don't know why they get killed on walls -->

Edited October 19, 2023 by XenesisII.1540

[ArchonWing.9480]

Defending being a disadvantage is absurd. If that were true...

1.) You would need less attackers than defenders, which is false. This isn't Risk. You generally need more attackers.

2.) Nobody would run into a keep away from an enemy if that were true either. You would fight them on open ground lmao. Which you won't

IRL, hiding in a castle WAS a disadvantage because the siege would starve the people inside out and generally was solved through negotiations.  If there was no negotiation and the siege happened, they usually executed everyone inside.  Usually you could only break a siege through an outside army helping or you take advantage of the entrances/exits to retreat freely as needed. (you know, like in this game!). Or you don't let them set up a siege by fighting them outside and using fortifications to advance/retreat rest. That is the intended method

You can't starve to death in this game. And games typically have to favor offense because time is limited and it would be boring watching a months long staring contest. Some argue this happens already.

It is hard to argue defending is a disadvantage when

1.) Gliding exists

2.) Keep buffs exist

3.) Quick access to supply in keep to build siege

4.) Free portal usage exists

5.) Tactivators exist.

6.) Most keeps also give you the respawn advantage.

And yes, most of these can be used in conjunction with these walls.

If you can;t use any of these effectively, then I guess. However, what are you doing? Are you at least recapping the nearest camp and stalling (not even killing) people running to the enemy group? Seriously, what?

 

So why would you be in front of your enemies in a wall? Humans as a species was designed to fling objects from afar. Our primate precursors flung their poop, ancient humans threw spears. Then we made catapults and trebuchets to fling heavier objects (though sometimes it could be poop). And then basically rockets and stuff follow the same principle.

Build trebs, shield gens, and even catapults. Don't build ACs though. If had any complaint, it'd be about those.

And in game. Let's say you had perma stab and 99% reduced damage. You downed one person in the enemy zerg. What does that accomplish beyond getting them to press F? Your plan is fundamentally wrong even in the best case scenario.

And finally the game's PPT system revolves around not holding structures forever, but holding onto structures for as many ticks as possible. You are not defending structures to prevent enemies from pillaging your peasants, but rather to delay enemies and reduce their point count overall.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure many so called "defenders" don't really defend but rather just use keeps and towers as crutches because they can't survive outside.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[XenesisII.1540]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Our primate precursors flung their poop

🤣

[Justine.6351]

3 hours ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

I've always thought that walls should be an advantage for the defenders as they were in RL.  The only advantage GW2 walls offer is to (maybe) buy enough time for allies to respond.  While RL walls can protect defenders, that protection is not perfect.  What RL walls don't do is protect attackers, whereas GW2 walls do.

The attackers' advantages come from the way ground targeting works.  This has always seemed to me like an accident due to the nature of ground targeting.  Maybe ANet has done nothing to address the issue because they don't want to completely work ground targeting.  Maybe they haven't got a clue how to fix it.  Or, maybe, they have no motivation to fix it because they believe that organized or even semi-organized attacking groups should be able to brush off defenders, easily take structures and farm bags, whereas the role of pugs trying to defend is as the carriers of those bags.

So anet needs to add a ladder trick to the vendor?

[TheGrimm.5624]

It's reset so there is also time for a bit of fun on reset. Hope everyone's bags are full tonight and may we have less queue bugs after tis weeks change.

22 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Defending being a disadvantage is absurd. If that were true...

1.) You would need less attackers than defenders, which is false. This isn't Risk. You generally need more attackers.

2.) Nobody would run into a keep away from an enemy if that were true either. You would fight them on open ground lmao. Which you won't

IRL, hiding in a castle WAS a disadvantage because the siege would starve the people inside out and generally was solved through negotiations.  If there was no negotiation and the siege happened, they usually executed everyone inside.  Usually you could only break a siege through an outside army helping or you take advantage of the entrances/exits to retreat freely as needed. (you know, like in this game!). Or you don't let them set up a siege by fighting them outside and using fortifications to advance/retreat rest. That is the intended method

You can't starve to death in this game. And games typically have to favor offense because time is limited and it would be boring watching a months long staring contest. Some argue this happens already.

It is hard to argue defending is a disadvantage when

1.) Gliding exists

2.) Keep buffs exist

3.) Quick access to supply in keep to build siege

4.) Free portal usage exists

5.) Tactivators exist.

6.) Most keeps also give you the respawn advantage.

And yes, most of these can be used in conjunction with these walls.

If you can;t use any of these effectively, then I guess. However, what are you doing? Are you at least recapping the nearest camp and stalling (not even killing) people running to the enemy group? Seriously, what?

 

So why would you be in front of your enemies in a wall? Humans as a species was designed to fling objects from afar. Our primate precursors flung their poop, ancient humans threw spears. Then we made catapults and trebuchets to fling heavier objects (though sometimes it could be poop). And then basically rockets and stuff follow the same principle.

Build trebs, shield gens, and even catapults. Don't build ACs though. If had any complaint, it'd be about those.

And in game. Let's say you had perma stab and 99% reduced damage. You downed one person in the enemy zerg. What does that accomplish beyond getting them to press F? Your plan is fundamentally wrong even in the best case scenario.

And finally the game's PPT system revolves around not holding structures forever, but holding onto structures for as many ticks as possible. You are not defending structures to prevent enemies from pillaging your peasants, but rather to delay enemies and reduce their point count overall.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure many so called "defenders" don't really defend but rather just use keeps and towers as crutches because they can't survive outside.

 

 

21 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

🤣

So I also don't like to be pulled from walls but I fear the game would look more like this if CC couldn't pull people from walls.

The amount of times that people will not deploy siege but stop and look at a wall and wait for something to just knock it down. I think they have been yelled at by tags too many times that when there is none they picture there is some phantom one speaking in drill instructor voice asking them what in the kitten are you doing with that siege blueprint in your hand! 🙂 

Edited October 20, 2023 by TheGrimm.5624
Hit enter too fast

[XenesisII.1540]

4 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

So I also don't like to be pulled from walls but I fear the game would look more like this if CC couldn't pull people from walls.

 

"I blow my nose at you"

"I fart in your general direction"

"Your mother was a hamster"

I wonder how many would prefer defending with shouting insults instead of sieging at walls.

[ArchonWing.9480]

7 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

I blow my nose at you"

"I fart in your general direction"

"Your mother was a hamster"

I wonder how many would prefer defending with shouting insults instead of sieging at walls.

I mean, considering this thread and other pull ones, they would accomplish more.

18 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

The amount of times that people will not deploy siege but stop and look at a wall and wait for something to just knock it down. I think they have been yelled at by tags too many times that when there is none they picture there is some phantom one speaking in drill instructor voice asking them what in the kitten are you doing with that siege blueprint in your hand!

Sometimes people do that to pick the enemy zerg's tail as they go in the tower. Or repair the wall to cut the zerg apart.

On our server, they may just be too busy pinging the objective without saying anything else of value.

[TheGrimm.5624]

10 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

"I blow my nose at you"

"I fart in your general direction"

"Your mother was a hamster"

I wonder how many would prefer defending with shouting insults instead of sieging at walls.

I think we need more emotes and more animated ones in game.

Hey Art Devs, in order to increase wall taunts please play some more Destiny 2 and steal some of their emote ideas. Might also be a good gem store items.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 minute ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I mean, considering this thread and other pull ones, they would accomplish more.

Sometimes people do that to pick the enemy zerg's tail as they go in the tower. Or repair the wall to cut the zerg apart.

On our server, they may just be too busy pinging the objective without saying anything else of value.

But but but, X.

I mean, come on X. Sometimes I am so amazed by the shear amount of information that was provided that I have to step away and get some more water while my brain comprehends all of the information and I can figure out the appropriate response. 

Sometimes we get there and that roamer is so much:

 

[TheGrimm.5624]

20 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

So anet needs to add a ladder trick to the vendor?

Actually need to come back to this. Someone had mentioned a siege tower the other day and just saying that brings to mind some interesting ideas. But more coffee and less blood and will bring that up in a separate thread.

[blp.3489]

I think the counter-intuitive aspect of walls is that an attacker can place a non-projectile AOE attack like a well on the edge of the wall and hit a defender that is some distance back from the edge and out of sight and/or behind a parapet, but a defender using the same skill can't place it on the edge and have it hit the attackers at the bottom of the wall.  So the bending of the AOE benefits the attacker and disadvantages the defender.

One could also argue that walls are damageable objects that can be attacked and that AOE attacks like wells should be instantly applied to the wall the same way that projectile or strike damage is, rather than persisting as though they had been placed on the ground.  That would certainly mitigate some of the "defender disadvantage".

On 10/19/2023 at 6:54 PM, Justine.6351 said:

So anet needs to add a ladder trick to the vendor?

It might be interesting to see the effect, maybe for a limited time event.  It would certainly rebalance the utility of zergs versus small groups.  You might get a flourishing small scale fight scene, or, doom players to interminable boredom guarding objectives against possible solo ladder attackers.  If zergs weren't much more efficient at taking objectives than small groups with ladders then zerging might be less popular.

Since RL has been brought up, no matter how irrelevant it may be in a game, no one leaves a keep or a tower empty during a war in RL.  If they did someone would certainly come along with a ladder and take it over.  If ladders took very little damage to destroy, like quickly destroyed by an NPC level of damage, it could be interesting.  Waiting around in an objective in case someone with a ladder appeared would be pretty boring though.  Maybe you could provide some PVE entertainment and thereby provide a role for PVE players who are only in wvw reluctantly.

Of course you should also add rocks and/or bombs that can be dropped onto ladders and people climbing ladders, one of the most prevalent anti-siege weapons historically.  Dropping rocks on catapults set up next to a wall could be fun.

Something should also be done about the boiling oil caldrons which have no purpose other than getting you killed if you try to use one, even if under attack by a small group.

Getting back to RL, I wonder if anyone anywhere ever built a castle wall with no small wall on top of the big wall to provide shelter for defenders.  Of course there is no such thing as a non-projectile AOE attack in RL, that's part of the basis of the non-intuitive lack of utility of the walls.  The asymmetry in AOE effect is a little unfair.