Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Grogba.6204 said:

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:I'm a relatively new player, and don't have much interest in raiding (been there, done that in other titles).

BUT, I would like to point out that Dungeons have a "story" mode that is noticeably easier along with "exploration" mode that offers more challenge and additional loot rewards. Not sure if that was already suggested in the 50+ pages, but as the model already exists in game, why couldn't Raids have a "story" mode enabled?

Because dungeons were designed with these story paths in mind, these paths are completely different from the explorable paths and thus do not apply for raids.

So I'm acknowledging my unfamiliarity with raid content in GW2 here, but if I understand your post correctly, there is no 'story' to the raid content?

[Voltekka.2375]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Grogba.6204 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I'm a relatively new player, and don't have much interest in raiding (been there, done that in other titles).

BUT, I would like to point out that Dungeons have a "story" mode that is noticeably easier along with "exploration" mode that offers more challenge and additional loot rewards. Not sure if that was already suggested in the 50+ pages, but as the model already exists in game, why couldn't Raids have a "story" mode enabled?

Because dungeons were designed with these story paths in mind, these paths are completely different from the explorable paths and thus do not apply for raids.

So I'm acknowledging my unfamiliarity with raid content in GW2 here, but if I understand your post correctly, there is no 'story' to the raid content?

Of course there is story in raid content, there is also a whole other topic regarding thathttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/17613/stories-locked-behind-raids-merged/p1

[maddoctor.2738]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Grogba.6204 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I'm a relatively new player, and don't have much interest in raiding (been there, done that in other titles).

BUT, I would like to point out that Dungeons have a "story" mode that is noticeably easier along with "exploration" mode that offers more challenge and additional loot rewards. Not sure if that was already suggested in the 50+ pages, but as the model already exists in game, why couldn't Raids have a "story" mode enabled?

Because dungeons were designed with these story paths in mind, these paths are completely different from the explorable paths and thus do not apply for raids.

So I'm acknowledging my unfamiliarity with raid content in GW2 here, but if I understand your post correctly, there is no 'story' to the raid content?

There is a story but there is no -story- mode. Remember that story and explorable mode of dungeons is two different pieces of content, different story, different enemies, different rewards. Raids do not have anything similar.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Grogba.6204 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I'm a relatively new player, and don't have much interest in raiding (been there, done that in other titles).

BUT, I would like to point out that Dungeons have a "story" mode that is noticeably easier along with "exploration" mode that offers more challenge and additional loot rewards. Not sure if that was already suggested in the 50+ pages, but as the model already exists in game, why couldn't Raids have a "story" mode enabled?

Because dungeons were designed with these story paths in mind, these paths are completely different from the explorable paths and thus do not apply for raids.

So I'm acknowledging my unfamiliarity with raid content in GW2 here, but if I understand your post correctly, there is no 'story' to the raid content?

Dungeons have a big part of their story in the story mode, which is strongly interwoven with the personal story. Their explorable modes also contain bits of story, which takes place after the story mode story. However, as Grogba already said, explos are totally different from story mode. They have more or less similar locations, but that's it. A possible raid infantile mode is a totally different story, since that one would be a poor copy of the normal mode. Dungeon paths are no copies.

[Grogba.6204]

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:So I'm acknowledging my unfamiliarity with raid content in GW2 here, but if I understand your post correctly, there is no 'story' to the raid content?

To be more precise: Dungeons entered the game at release back in 2012 and were most likely in development until then and even afterwards, too, considering all the bugs that have and to this day still plague the content. All dungeons were developed with one introduction path (to tie in the reforming of Destiny's Edge) aka "story" path and a number of explorable paths. Now the explorable paths happen after the story path chronologically. The only thing the explorable paths and the story path share are the scenery and story aspect.

Now, Raids were introduced in November 2015 with one difficulty tier in mind. (Arenanet has been rather clear that they consider Raids the ultimate challenge!). As such, there is but one version of every Raidwing, the one currently implemented into the game.Therefore - as multiple people already stated in this thread - it is not simply pulling a lever to create an easy/story/hard mode of raids (and the current difficulty is essentially the story mode as the boss encounters are a tie in to the story). Bosses would have to be redesigned, encounters changed, a way to initiate the mode has to be created, all of this has to be tested, bugs need to be fixed. And as anything in development, this may take multiple iterations, too.

And considering that ressources are finite, something would need to be pushed back. Either PvP, WvW, Open World, the Story, Current Events or a new Raidwing (The release schedule for them is already insanely slow!). To provide my own opinion: I do not think that an easy mode is necessary. If it has no replayability it turns into dead content, if it's rewards are too good it starts cannibalizing other kinds of content.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Ferelwing.8463 said:I honestly understand that feeling, on the other hand if you're already having to change your build because you play WvW and PVE it makes better sense to just go for the WvW armor vs PVE.... I understand the majority of PVE players do it for the skins not for the ability to change builds on the fly and while I get that it does sort of annoy me... Considering that PVE builds are either Condi or Power depending on which is strong on whatever class there is.... They don't really change much, I read every patch note and check the current up to date builds for PVE after each patch, and the only thing that ever changes is whether or not Power or Condi is strong.

That completely depends on the class and what you do with it. Not only there's sometimes more than one power/condi build (different runes), but there are support builds as well (sometimes even with more than one variant within the role, like with normal/minstrel chrono). And it does keep constantly changing.And that's just if all you do is follow meta. If you want to experiment a bit on your own, legendaries become priceless.

I can understand the PVE point but I do sort of wonder why Legendary really matters in PVE... Now that you can change Ascended to whatever you need currently.

In open world it doesn't, but otherwise it can be as useful as for wvw.

[Ferelwing.8463]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ferelwing.8463 said:I honestly understand that feeling, on the other hand if you're already having to change your build because you play WvW and PVE it makes better sense to just go for the WvW armor vs PVE.... I understand the majority of PVE players do it for the skins not for the ability to change builds on the fly and while I get that it does sort of annoy me... Considering that PVE builds are either Condi or Power depending on which is strong on whatever class there is.... They don't really change much, I read every patch note and check the current up to date builds for PVE after each patch, and the only thing that ever changes is whether or not Power or Condi is strong.

That completely depends on the class and what you do with it. Not only there's sometimes more than one power/condi build (different runes), but there are support builds as well (sometimes even with more than one variant within the role, like with normal/minstrel chrono). And it does keep constantly changing.And that's just if all you do is follow meta. If you want to experiment a bit on your own, legendaries become priceless.

I can understand the PVE point but I do sort of wonder why Legendary really matters in PVE... Now that you can change Ascended to whatever you need currently.

In open world it doesn't, but otherwise it can be as useful as for wvw.

Oh yeah, you've got a point when it comes to Chrono, I think they're the only group that really changes much... Though I guess a case could be made for Druids too now that I think about it. I've only finished 1 legendary and I'm mostly just working on the WvW legendary armor but to be fair I play WvW more often than I play PVE these days. The problem though is that PUG's get really upset if you don't follow the meta and with the frequency of DPS meters.... It makes experimenting harder.

[Ohoni.6057]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Grogba.6204 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I'm a relatively new player, and don't have much interest in raiding (been there, done that in other titles).

BUT, I would like to point out that Dungeons have a "story" mode that is noticeably easier along with "exploration" mode that offers more challenge and additional loot rewards. Not sure if that was already suggested in the 50+ pages, but as the model already exists in game, why couldn't Raids have a "story" mode enabled?

Because dungeons were designed with these story paths in mind, these paths are completely different from the explorable paths and thus do not apply for raids.

So I'm acknowledging my unfamiliarity with raid content in GW2 here, but if I understand your post correctly, there is no 'story' to the raid content?

Dungeons have a big part of their story in the story mode, which is strongly interwoven with the personal story. Their explorable modes also contain bits of story, which takes place after the story mode story. However, as Grogba already said, explos are totally different from story mode. They have more or less similar locations, but that's it. A possible raid infantile mode is a totally different story, since that one would be a poor copy of the normal mode. Dungeon paths are no copies.

This isn't true. The story mode content of dungeons is largely irrelevant to the personal story until the very last chapter, and even then, only a minor connection. On the flipside, the raid story constantly interweaves with the LWs3 storyline, and leads into PoF's story campaign, and then picks up where PoF's story leaves off. It has at least as much connection to the ongoing plot of the game as the Dungeon stories did.

I mean, in favor of easy raids or against them, whatever, but the argument that "the raids story doesn't matter" is just nonsense.

[Sephylon.4938]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Grogba.6204 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I'm a relatively new player, and don't have much interest in raiding (been there, done that in other titles).

BUT, I would like to point out that Dungeons have a "story" mode that is noticeably easier along with "exploration" mode that offers more challenge and additional loot rewards. Not sure if that was already suggested in the 50+ pages, but as the model already exists in game, why couldn't Raids have a "story" mode enabled?

Because dungeons were designed with these story paths in mind, these paths are completely different from the explorable paths and thus do not apply for raids.

So I'm acknowledging my unfamiliarity with raid content in GW2 here, but if I understand your post correctly, there is no 'story' to the raid content?

Dungeons have a big part of their story in the story mode, which is strongly interwoven with the personal story. Their explorable modes also contain bits of story, which takes place after the story mode story. However, as Grogba already said, explos are totally different from story mode. They have more or less similar locations, but that's it. A possible raid infantile mode is a totally different story, since that one would be a poor copy of the normal mode. Dungeon paths are no copies.

This isn't true. The story mode content of dungeons is largely irrelevant to the personal story until the very last chapter, and even then, only a minor connection. On the flipside, the raid story constantly interweaves with the LWs3 storyline, and leads into PoF's story campaign, and then picks up where PoF's story leaves off. It has at least as much connection to the ongoing plot of the game as the Dungeon stories did.

I mean, in favor of easy raids or against them, whatever, but the argument that "the raids story doesn't matter" is just nonsense.

sure you don't mean lws3? And even then dungeons have shown more than raids currently do.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Grogba.6204 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I'm a relatively new player, and don't have much interest in raiding (been there, done that in other titles).

BUT, I would like to point out that Dungeons have a "story" mode that is noticeably easier along with "exploration" mode that offers more challenge and additional loot rewards. Not sure if that was already suggested in the 50+ pages, but as the model already exists in game, why couldn't Raids have a "story" mode enabled?

Because dungeons were designed with these story paths in mind, these paths are completely different from the explorable paths and thus do not apply for raids.

So I'm acknowledging my unfamiliarity with raid content in GW2 here, but if I understand your post correctly, there is no 'story' to the raid content?

Dungeons have a big part of their story in the story mode, which is strongly interwoven with the personal story. Their explorable modes also contain bits of story, which takes place after the story mode story. However, as Grogba already said, explos are totally different from story mode. They have more or less similar locations, but that's it. A possible raid infantile mode is a totally different story, since that one would be a poor copy of the normal mode. Dungeon paths are no copies.

This isn't true. The story mode content of dungeons is largely irrelevant to the personal story until the very last chapter, and even then, only a minor connection. On the flipside, the raid story constantly interweaves with the LWs3 storyline, and leads into PoF's story campaign, and then picks up where PoF's story leaves off. It has at least as much connection to the ongoing plot of the game as the Dungeon stories did.

I mean, in favor of easy raids or against them, whatever, but the argument that "the raids story doesn't matter" is just nonsense.

sure you don't mean lws3? And even then dungeons have shown more than raids currently do.

I said LWs3. But here's my point, the dungeon story campaigns mostly tell self-contained stories. What throughline they do have is that the Destinty's Edge characters keep bumping into each other and getting closer to reconciling. This is not at all important to the personal story until the last chapter, and even then you can just roll with it even if you'd never played the dungeons (I don't believe I completed most of the dungeons before my first completion of Zhaitan). So "they dungeon story is vital to the personal story and that's why it's important but the raid story isn't" is nonsense. As for the raid story itself, wings 1-3 bridge the story gap between HoT campaign and LWs3.1, and sets up several points that become relevant over the course of season 3. Wing 4 relates to the s3 finale, and to GW1's story. Wing 5 spins out of the events of the PoF campaign, and again is a major part of the story of Tyria.

Again, if you don't care about the story elements presented in the raids, that's fine, but you can't for a second tell anyone else that "the story is not important." That's up to them.

[Sephylon.4938]

well what story in wing 5 is vital to pof story then? And all I said was that dungeon story tell/show more of a story than raids, I never said it wan't important.edit:to clarify, I'm asking what you mean by "Wing 5 spins out of the events of the PoF campaign, and again is a major part of the story of Tyria." as far as I can tell, wing 5 is the story of what happened to Grenth's domain after he left, and I'm having trouble finding the connections between that and the events of pof.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Sephylon.4938" said:well what story in wing 5 is vital to pof story then? And all I said was that dungeon story tell/show more of a story than raids, I never said it wan't important.edit:to clarify, I'm asking what you mean by "Wing 5 spins out of the events of the PoF campaign, and again is a major part of the story of Tyria." as far as I can tell, wing 5 is the story of what happened to Grenth's domain after he left, and I'm having trouble finding the connections between that and the events of pof.

It spins out of the story mission "The Departing," which set up the environment for Wing 5. It then goes on to further explore the consequences of the situation with the human gods raised by that chapter and "Facing the Truth." It's a major part of Tyria's lore, and again, that' may not matter to you, but you don't have the right to claim that it shouldn't matter to any other player.

[yann.1946]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Grogba.6204 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I'm a relatively new player, and don't have much interest in raiding (been there, done that in other titles).

BUT, I would like to point out that Dungeons have a "story" mode that is noticeably easier along with "exploration" mode that offers more challenge and additional loot rewards. Not sure if that was already suggested in the 50+ pages, but as the model already exists in game, why couldn't Raids have a "story" mode enabled?

Because dungeons were designed with these story paths in mind, these paths are completely different from the explorable paths and thus do not apply for raids.

So I'm acknowledging my unfamiliarity with raid content in GW2 here, but if I understand your post correctly, there is no 'story' to the raid content?

Dungeons have a big part of their story in the story mode, which is strongly interwoven with the personal story. Their explorable modes also contain bits of story, which takes place after the story mode story. However, as Grogba already said, explos are totally different from story mode. They have more or less similar locations, but that's it. A possible raid infantile mode is a totally different story, since that one would be a poor copy of the normal mode. Dungeon paths are no copies.

This isn't true. The story mode content of dungeons is largely irrelevant to the personal story until the very last chapter, and even then, only a minor connection. On the flipside, the raid story constantly interweaves with the LWs3 storyline, and leads into PoF's story campaign, and then picks up where PoF's story leaves off. It has at least as much connection to the ongoing plot of the game as the Dungeon stories did.

I mean, in favor of easy raids or against them, whatever, but the argument that "the raids story doesn't matter" is just nonsense.

sure you don't mean lws3? And even then dungeons have shown more than raids currently do.

I said LWs3. But here's my point, the dungeon story campaigns mostly tell self-contained stories. What throughline they do have is that the Destinty's Edge characters keep bumping into each other and getting closer to reconciling. This is not at all important to the personal story until the last chapter, and even then you can just roll with it even if you'd never played the dungeons (I don't believe I completed most of the dungeons before my first completion of Zhaitan). So "they dungeon story is vital to the personal story and that's why it's important but the raid story isn't" is nonsense. As for the raid story itself, wings 1-3 bridge the story gap between HoT campaign and LWs3.1, and sets up several points that become relevant over the course of season 3. Wing 4 relates to the s3 finale, and to GW1's story. Wing 5 spins out of the events of the PoF campaign, and again is a major part of the story of Tyria.

Again, if

you

don't care about the story elements presented in the raids, that's fine, but you can't for a second tell anyone else that "the story is not important." That's up to them.

We'll tot be completely fair all the story from the first 3 wings gets explained in bloodstone fen.The 4th wing is not relevant for the main story in the sense that bot having it doesn't change the story at all.The same thing can be said over the 5th wing.

Will the dungeon story is relevant in the last mission. And their is no explanation given elsewhere else why they get back together.

This would make the dungeon story more important then the raid story in regard tot the continuity of the main story.

[Tyson.5160]

@Grogba.6204 said:

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:So I'm acknowledging my unfamiliarity with raid content in GW2 here, but if I understand your post correctly, there is no 'story' to the raid content?

To be more precise: Dungeons entered the game at release back in 2012 and were most likely in development until then and even afterwards, too, considering all the bugs that have and to this day

still

plague the content. All dungeons were developed with one introduction path (to tie in the reforming of Destiny's Edge) aka "story" path and a number of explorable paths. Now the explorable paths happen after the story path chronologically. The only thing the explorable paths and the story path share are the scenery and story aspect.

Now, Raids were introduced in November 2015 with one difficulty tier in mind. (Arenanet has been rather clear that they consider Raids the ultimate challenge!). As such, there is but one version of every Raidwing, the one currently implemented into the game.Therefore - as multiple people already stated in this thread - it is not simply pulling a lever to create an easy/story/hard mode of raids (and the current difficulty is essentially the story mode as the boss encounters are a tie in to the story). Bosses would have to be redesigned, encounters changed, a way to initiate the mode has to be created, all of this has to be tested, bugs need to be fixed.

And as anything in development, this may take multiple iterations, too.

And considering that ressources are finite,

something

would need to be pushed back. Either PvP, WvW, Open World, the Story, Current Events or a new Raidwing (The release schedule for them is already insanely slow!). To provide my own opinion: I do

not

think that an easy mode is necessary. If it has no replayability it turns into dead content, if it's rewards are too good it starts cannibalizing other kinds of content.

I do liked the suggestion of making the boss easier by opening it up to 20 people. This would limit the amount of dev time needed and a slight adjustment to awards maybe similar to world boss drops. Heck you could even throw in a few achievements in there as well. This would in theory allow people to see the story and kinda see the mechanics.

[BillC.4521]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Grogba.6204 said:

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:So I'm acknowledging my unfamiliarity with raid content in GW2 here, but if I understand your post correctly, there is no 'story' to the raid content?

To be more precise: Dungeons entered the game at release back in 2012 and were most likely in development until then and even afterwards, too, considering all the bugs that have and to this day

still

plague the content. All dungeons were developed with one introduction path (to tie in the reforming of Destiny's Edge) aka "story" path and a number of explorable paths. Now the explorable paths happen after the story path chronologically. The only thing the explorable paths and the story path share are the scenery and story aspect.

Now, Raids were introduced in November 2015 with one difficulty tier in mind. (Arenanet has been rather clear that they consider Raids the ultimate challenge!). As such, there is but one version of every Raidwing, the one currently implemented into the game.Therefore - as multiple people already stated in this thread - it is not simply pulling a lever to create an easy/story/hard mode of raids (and the current difficulty is essentially the story mode as the boss encounters are a tie in to the story). Bosses would have to be redesigned, encounters changed, a way to initiate the mode has to be created, all of this has to be tested, bugs need to be fixed.

And as anything in development, this may take multiple iterations, too.

And considering that ressources are finite,

something

would need to be pushed back. Either PvP, WvW, Open World, the Story, Current Events or a new Raidwing (The release schedule for them is already insanely slow!). To provide my own opinion: I do

not

think that an easy mode is necessary. If it has no replayability it turns into dead content, if it's rewards are too good it starts cannibalizing other kinds of content.

I do liked the suggestion of making the boss easier by opening it up to 20 people. This would limit the amount of dev time needed and a slight adjustment to awards maybe similar to world boss drops. Heck you could even throw in a few achievements in there as well. This would in theory allow people to see the story and kinda see the mechanics.

I dont think it will last tho, just imagine strategy used on normal mode, used on easy mode.And another problem is with this current elite spec meta and build will probably make easy mode into super easier mode if you can get 1 healer to help you sustain the nerfed dmg

[Tyson.5160]

@BillC.4521 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Grogba.6204 said:

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:So I'm acknowledging my unfamiliarity with raid content in GW2 here, but if I understand your post correctly, there is no 'story' to the raid content?

To be more precise: Dungeons entered the game at release back in 2012 and were most likely in development until then and even afterwards, too, considering all the bugs that have and to this day

still

plague the content. All dungeons were developed with one introduction path (to tie in the reforming of Destiny's Edge) aka "story" path and a number of explorable paths. Now the explorable paths happen after the story path chronologically. The only thing the explorable paths and the story path share are the scenery and story aspect.

Now, Raids were introduced in November 2015 with one difficulty tier in mind. (Arenanet has been rather clear that they consider Raids the ultimate challenge!). As such, there is but one version of every Raidwing, the one currently implemented into the game.Therefore - as multiple people already stated in this thread - it is not simply pulling a lever to create an easy/story/hard mode of raids (and the current difficulty is essentially the story mode as the boss encounters are a tie in to the story). Bosses would have to be redesigned, encounters changed, a way to initiate the mode has to be created, all of this has to be tested, bugs need to be fixed.

And as anything in development, this may take multiple iterations, too.

And considering that ressources are finite,

something

would need to be pushed back. Either PvP, WvW, Open World, the Story, Current Events or a new Raidwing (The release schedule for them is already insanely slow!). To provide my own opinion: I do

not

think that an easy mode is necessary. If it has no replayability it turns into dead content, if it's rewards are too good it starts cannibalizing other kinds of content.

I do liked the suggestion of making the boss easier by opening it up to 20 people. This would limit the amount of dev time needed and a slight adjustment to awards maybe similar to world boss drops. Heck you could even throw in a few achievements in there as well. This would in theory allow people to see the story and kinda see the mechanics.

I dont think it will last tho, just imagine strategy used on normal mode, used on easy mode.And another problem is with this current elite spec meta and build will probably make easy mode into super easier mode if you can get 1 healer to help you sustain the nerfed dmg

I mean if they wanted people to do it you could add liquid gold rewards like dungeons, however if the dev time is slim, the effort isn’t really wasted.

[Tyson.5160]

I mean what you could do as well as have the squad open to 20, but really only utilize a few spots like 12 or 13, then you could use it for training purposes as your not changing the mob or mechanics.

[Astralporing.1957]

@BillC.4521 said:I dont think it will last tho, just imagine strategy used on normal mode, used on easy mode.Well, the idea is that anyone that could do normal mode would have no incentive to do easy mode. Granted, it would be easier and they'd earn the same rewards, but they'd earn those rewards at a slower rate, with no way to offset that apart from playing normal mode as well.So, if the group could already do normal mode, then yes, they could cheese easy mode for laugh, but beyond that there'd be no point to it and nothing really would have been lost by allowing them to do that. On the other hand, if the group was not able to do normal mode yet, then you really couldn't expect them to pull off normal mode strategies well enough anyway.

Experienced T4 (OR T4+CM) fractal runners can easily cheese t1, for example, but it's not really a problem at all.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"yann.1946" said:We'll tot be completely fair all the story from the first 3 wings gets explained in bloodstone fen.

This is a game. "Having the story be explained" by some NPC should never be viewed at a substitute for actually taking part in it! That's why players are still up in arms about Season 1 being unavailable for replay. Again, if the Bloodstone Fen content is "good enough for you," that's fine, but that doesn't mean that it should be "good enough" for anyone else.

The 4th wing is not relevant for the main story in the sense that bot having it doesn't change the story at all.

But it's backstory that informs that story, and is also relevant to GW1. Yes, you could skip all of HoT's story, and it "wouldn't impact the story of PoF at all," but missing out on these portions of the story means missing out on a portion of how it got there.

Will the dungeon story is relevant in the last mission. And their is no explanation given elsewhere else why they get back together.

And according to your philosophy, there would not need to be any explanation as to how they got back together, "We got back together" would be plenty, apparently.

[Sephylon.4938]

This is a game. "Having the story be explained" by some NPC should never be viewed at a substitute for actually taking part in it! That's why players are still up in arms about Season 1 being unavailable for replay. Again, if the Bloodstone Fen content is "good enough for you," that's fine, but that doesn't mean that it should be "good enough" for anyone else.

But that's exactly how the story are told in raids, through random pieces of paper scattered around that we have to scavenge for to read.

[Tyson.5160]

@"Sephylon.4938" said:

This is a game. "Having the story be explained" by some NPC should never be viewed at a substitute for actually taking part in it! That's why players are still up in arms about Season 1 being unavailable for replay. Again, if the Bloodstone Fen content is "good enough for you," that's fine, but that doesn't mean that it should be "good enough" for anyone else.

But that's exactly how the story are told in raids, through random pieces of paper scattered around that we have to scavenge for to read.

Well it’s a combination of interactable objects and dialogue from Glenna and the player characters as well, with the occasional dialogue from the boss and npcs, much like living story, but to a lesser degree.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@yann.1946 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:I said LWs3. But here's my point, the dungeon story campaigns mostly tell self-contained stories. What throughline they do have is that the Destinty's Edge characters keep bumping into each other and getting closer to reconciling. This is not at all important to the personal story until the last chapter, and even then you can just roll with it even if you'd never played the dungeons (I don't believe I completed most of the dungeons before my first completion of Zhaitan). So "they dungeon story is vital to the personal story and that's why it's important but the raid story isn't" is nonsense. As for the raid story itself, wings 1-3 bridge the story gap between HoT campaign and LWs3.1, and sets up several points that become relevant over the course of season 3. Wing 4 relates to the s3 finale, and to GW1's story. Wing 5 spins out of the events of the PoF campaign, and again is a major part of the story of Tyria.

Again, if

you

don't care about the story elements presented in the raids, that's fine, but you can't for a second tell anyone else that "the story is not important." That's up to them.

We'll tot be completely fair all the story from the first 3 wings gets explained in bloodstone fen.The 4th wing is not relevant for the main story in the sense that bot having it doesn't change the story at all.The same thing can be said over the 5th wing.

Will the dungeon story is relevant in the last mission. And their is no explanation given elsewhere else why they get back together.

This would make the dungeon story more important then the raid story in regard tot the continuity of the main story.

The dungeon story mode story is just as important as the raid story. They can both be completely ignored as well as have some role in the "movement of the world"/overarching lore. The Arah storymode is a part of it, but it has been changed to a soloable experience for a while now for exactly that reason.

The reality is, you will get ingame mail of what happens in the dungeon story mode, so you don't even have to play them in order to understand what is going on.Same with the raid, whatever is vital to the main storyline pretty much gets explained outside of the raids as well.

In a way they are pretty much equivalent lore/story wise. Any added value is subjective. One is important to gain deeper understanding between some key characters and another is to gain a deeper understanding about what events are occurring in the world. One person might find one more important than the other for sure. But I don't see how they are all that different. They both form the story.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Sephylon.4938" said:

This is a game. "Having the story be explained" by some NPC should never be viewed at a substitute for actually taking part in it! That's why players are still up in arms about Season 1 being unavailable for replay. Again, if the Bloodstone Fen content is "good enough for you," that's fine, but that doesn't mean that it should be "good enough" for anyone else.

But that's exactly how the story are told in raids, through random pieces of paper scattered around that we have to scavenge for to read.

Part of the story is told that way, part of it is told through the action itself and character interactions. Even exploring the maps for clues is gameplay, just having it explained by a single unrelated NPC is not the same thing.

Again, You do not need to appreciate the distinction here, just accept that whether you understand it or not, the distinction exists, and matters to other players.

[BillC.4521]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@BillC.4521 said:I dont think it will last tho, just imagine strategy used on normal mode, used on easy mode.Well, the idea is that anyone that could do normal mode would have no incentive to do easy mode. Granted, it would be easier and they'd earn the same rewards, but they'd earn those rewards at a slower rate, with no way to offset that apart from playing normal mode as well.So, if the group could already do normal mode, then yes, they

could

cheese easy mode for laugh, but beyond that there'd be no point to it and nothing really would have been lost by allowing them to do that. On the other hand, if the group was

not

able to do normal mode yet, then you really couldn't expect them to pull off normal mode strategies well enough anyway.

Experienced T4 (OR T4+CM) fractal runners can easily cheese t1, for example, but it's not really a problem at all.

how slow that reward tho, after finishing my 1st legend armor, my group doing raid so slow that i doubt easy mode raid in this thread gonna be slower. well i just finished my 2nd legend armor just now. if rewards/time ratio is better on easy mode then people will just move into it leaving only the elite group doing the normal mode, its slow but eventually people will get the rewards, who knows how many exp player will do it :)

[yann.1946]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"yann.1946" said:We'll tot be completely fair all the story from the first 3 wings gets explained in bloodstone fen.

This is a game.

"Having the story be explained" by some NPC should never be viewed at a substitute for actually taking part in it! That's why players are still up in arms about Season 1 being unavailable for replay. Again, if the Bloodstone Fen content is "good enough for you," that's fine, but that doesn't mean that it should be "good enough" for anyone else.

I'm saying their is strictly more story about what happend in the first 3 wings from bloodstone fen then we get in the raid themselves. This was my only point as it is the only one that can be measured objectively.

The 4th wing is not relevant for the main story in the sense that bot having it doesn't change the story at all.

But it's backstory that informs that story, and is also relevant to GW1. Yes, you could skip all of HoT's story, and it "wouldn't impact the story of PoF at all," but missing out on these portions of the story means missing out on a portion of how it got there.

Well except the introduction of the egg and the exalted ofcourse.

Will the dungeon story is relevant in the last mission. And their is no explanation given elsewhere else why they get back together.

And according to

your

philosophy, there would not need to be any explanation as to how they got back together, "We got back together" would be plenty, apparently.

I would appreciate you would hold yourself to you're own words and not put things in my mouth.

My whole point was that for the continuity of the commanders story, dungeons are more important then raids. Nothing to do with what people consider most important because thats a ridicilous can of wurms to open.