Pistols Grant Elementalists the Choice between Greater Damage and Defense

[Doctor Hide.6345]

I didn't mind it to be honest. I still plan to use it because I am a gun nut when it comes to games, so if the damage is even close to scepter I will use it.  I don't mind it being single target mainly because it still works on bosses. Overall, I am liking what they did with it. /shrug

Edit: Also, keep in mind this is beta still. Look at how many changes DE Rifle went through from beta to live +.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Doctor Hide.6345

[Serephen.3420]

19 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

I didn't mind it to be honest. I still plan to use it because I am a gun nut when it comes to games, so if the damage is even close to scepter I will use it.  I don't mind it being single target mainly because it still works on bosses. Overall, I am liking what they did with it. /shrug

Edit: Also, keep in mind this is beta still. Look at how many changes DE Rifle went through from beta to live +.

There is a reason thieves had so many complaints when it came to pve about single target only. Also DE rifle is hardly if ever used in instanced content so that's not very encouraging. The whole thing is still a major let down imo. Only class that might make it work is weaver, but they use scepter in their condi build already so may be a moot point.

Look at guardian pistols if you wanna see what they could have done with ele. I get that the only reason you're being so forgiving here is because you're obsessed with guns. Fair enough, but consider the majority of eles getting stuck with a lack luster weapon that may not end up getting used at all is kinda sad. I'm not a big fan of magic guns but I was still hoping it would be interesting and actually useful and bring something new to eles kit.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

5 minutes ago, Serephen.3420 said:

There is a reason thieves had so many complaints when it came to pve about single target only. Also DE rifle is hardly if ever used in instanced content so that's not very encouraging. The whole thing is still a major let down imo. Only class that might make it work is weaver, but they use scepter in their condi build already so may be a moot point.

Look at guardian pistols if you wanna see what they could have done with ele. I get that the only reason you're being so forgiving here is because you're obsessed with guns. Fair enough, but consider the majority of eles getting stuck with a lack luster weapon that may not end up getting used at all is kinda sad. I'm not a big fan of magic guns but I was still hoping it would be interesting and actually useful and bring something new to eles kit.

I do get the complaints others and yourself have brought up, and they are valid. I am just trying to be positive here I guess with my obsession aside with what is coming. I think Harbi pistol also went through some major changes as well from the beta to live? I am just saying there is hope for those not happy with it since it will be 2-3 months still before it comes to us. I know by a long shot I will be in the minority here with my takes on it. I guess time will tell.

[CETheLucid.3964]

5 hours ago, veritech.1048 said:

I am shocked, shocked, that this weapon looked awful.

I'm not. Nice to dream though. It's not terrible or anything it's just set to be a scepter side-grade. Maybe even a downgrade if they don't up the splash damage a bit. Was really wanting for a long ranged DPS weapon, even single target, would be fine. But single target on a mid-range weapon with a competing alternative (scepter), ehh. It's not standing out. They made pistol a melee weapon for warrior, wanted to believe they could make it a 1200 range weapon for ele.

And like @Skyroar.2974 said, for a condition weapon it's a bit lacking in stacking those conditions. But it is pretty quick pew pew pew. Maybe that's the thing. Go catalyst and give yourself quickness to mag dump condis. Give it a whirl in a few hours before I have a really developed opinion. Happy for guardians though. You lovable fire wizards, you. Haha. 😔

Edited November 28, 2023 by CETheLucid.3964
formatting

[Comus.7365]

not sure what to think yet.. but i'll give it a shot 😉

[Serephen.3420]

7 hours ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

I do get the complaints others and yourself have brought up, and they are valid. I am just trying to be positive here I guess with my obsession aside with what is coming. I think Harbi pistol also went through some major changes as well from the beta to live? I am just saying there is hope for those not happy with it since it will be 2-3 months still before it comes to us. I know by a long shot I will be in the minority here with my takes on it. I guess time will tell.

I appreciate your understanding. I hope you are right and that some positive changes are made to make the weapon more enjoyable for us all.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

And they couldn't even be bothered with showcasing the Weaver skills. Literally the entire demo was just scurrying along until they could get to the next class in line. Tf.

"We couldn't think of a thematically fitting condition to put in Air", while proceeding to adding Bleeding to Water. How are they related?

Also "we could have added Burning because it's lightning, but we decided against it". Uhh why exactly? It makes far more sense than Water + Bleeding. 

[Serephen.3420]

1 minute ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

And they couldn't even be bothered with showcasing the Weaver skills. Literally the entire demo was just scurrying along until they could get to the next class in line. Tf.

"We couldn't think of a thematically fitting condition to put in Air", while proceeding to adding Bleeding to Water. How are they related?

Also "we could have added Burning because it's lightning, but we decided against it". Uhh why exactly? It makes far more sense than Water + Bleeding. 

They could have added confusion or torment to air quite easily but oh well.

[Shade.7240]

38 minutes ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

And they couldn't even be bothered with showcasing the Weaver skills. Literally the entire demo was just scurrying along until they could get to the next class in line. Tf.

"We couldn't think of a thematically fitting condition to put in Air", while proceeding to adding Bleeding to Water. How are they related?

Also "we could have added Burning because it's lightning, but we decided against it". Uhh why exactly? It makes far more sense than Water + Bleeding. 

Bleeding for water because technically you are firering ice shards, maybe(I couldn't tell)?  Visually the weapon skills are unappealing.

The biggest disappointment was AIR on pistol and the kitten reason that pistol is a condition weapon which goes against the core idea that elementalist is a hybrid class.(maybe thats why scepter air sucks soo much).

This would be better: Skill 1: could be faster and chain to enemies/ Skill: explosive projectile with blind and weakness(+stuns) / Skill: Dash backwards and shot compressed air knocking back one enemy(+cone)

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

They could have added confusion or torment to air quite easily but oh well.

They've linked confusion to electricity on engineer often enough that I would have thought it was obvious.

Making it all power on a weapon that's supposed to be condi-based really just makes it into another case of air being an occasional dip for utility and not much else.

[ExtliQuani.4063]

Watched the weapon preview right now, are they serious?

1. We get a new ranged condi weapon (make it a option for power atleast)

2. They are too lazy to think of conditions to put on the different attunments (it feels like its just single target scepter, why bother to make a new weapon, when it seems to be nearly identical to sth already existing)

3. Then they mock the ele players during the guardian preview by stating hey look this class gets two weapons and you only one (I do not care about the skill numbers we get, its just silly to hide behind the skill number, when you have put 0 and I mean ZERO effort in the new weapon (see point 2))

Sorry but it seems all design space got used for other classes, nothing more

[Vissarion.6509]

Overall looks decent and has some good synergie with the bullet mechanic.

My main complaint with pistol is that AGAIN every auto attack is single target, which makes it boring and unfun to use.

It's still the main reason i barely use hammer..

Put some bouncing bullets or pierce and it will be way better imo.

[ExtliQuani.4063]

Dont get me wrong I dig guns for casters, but it looks so similar to scepter. I was so happy about a gun and not a bow (but thats me) and then its so plain boring.

The Earth Auto named "piercing ..." not piercing its target is just lazy (watching the devs talking about it, showed me they did not put much thought into the weapon. Or atleast it seemed like it). 

Maybe it plays better then it looks, but my hopes were really high (even after they announced it as condi weapon) and now they are in the basement.

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by ExtliQuani.4063

[Jzaku.9765]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

They've linked confusion to electricity on engineer often enough that I would have thought it was obvious.

Making it all power on a weapon that's supposed to be condi-based really just makes it into another case of air being an occasional dip for utility and not much else.

I'm actually so surprised many people want every attunement to be a DPS increase. I would think more people would inherently understand that its actually better that the go-to "build" has some attunements you just dont go into, so you have access to the toolbox skills inside on demand. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

11 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

I'm actually so surprised many people want every attunement to be a DPS increase. I would think more people would inherently understand that its actually better that the go-to "build" has some attunements you just dont go into, so you have access to the toolbox skills inside on demand. 

The problem with that is you are essentially penalized for using your utility/healing skills.  Imagine any other class having to use a low dps weapon swap purely for utility.

[Jzaku.9765]

8 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

The problem with that is you are essentially penalized for using your utility/healing skills.  Imagine any other class having to use a low dps weapon swap purely for utility.

You are not penalized for anything. These are buttons you have on top of the heal skill everyone uses when they're in danger. Some classes don't even have ways to heal themselves outside of their heal skill. This would be like saying a Firebrand using Tome 2 to stop himself from going down and killing his own efficacy "penalizing him". 

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 11/19/2023 at 9:43 AM, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

What's wrong with being a selfish DPS? Not everyone wants to boon share when they play games. Some people like me are happy it is basically a pure dps with the optional defense choices just for us. Too many people now are screaming bloody murder for support when it is not needed all the time for builds. It is ok to be a selfish dps. If people want to be support or share some stuff, then I say just play another spec or build or weapon and leave the gun alone.

It would be okay.  But not when you're the only class playing by those rules. 

[Jski.6180]

I cant find any info on what the skill do so i am still a bit in the dark till the beta i guess. If what it sounds like the water 1 dose heal (if its single target its not that good) it will at least make pistols an chose for ranged support for 1h weapon that was lost with the scepter update. On top of an high def set up for say tempest or even cata (though it will have to have an combo finnisher.)

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

11 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

You are not penalized for anything. These are buttons you have on top of the heal skill everyone uses when they're in danger. Some classes don't even have ways to heal themselves outside of their heal skill. This would be like saying a Firebrand using Tome 2 to stop himself from going down and killing his own efficacy "penalizing him". 

Incorrect.  The class is balanced under the assumption of additional healing capability and it absolutely is a dps loss, for example, when weaver rotates to water.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

40 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

I'm actually so surprised many people want every attunement to be a DPS increase. I would think more people would inherently understand that its actually better that the go-to "build" has some attunements you just dont go into, so you have access to the toolbox skills inside on demand. 

Hammer water and wind weren't kitten so that they could be lackluster toolboxes, they are absolutely still part of DPS while being the toolboxes.

And I stand that modern Ele weapons should take that approach, that weapons have a clearly defined role and attunements only compliment that role, not bending the weapon to whatever weird narrow definition of a particular attunement. 

[Skyroar.2974]

1 hour ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

I'm actually so surprised many people want every attunement to be a DPS increase. I would think more people would inherently understand that its actually better that the go-to "build" has some attunements you just dont go into, so you have access to the toolbox skills inside on demand. 

Pistol is meant to be, by Anet's own words, a condi-damage weapon, not a jack-of-all-trades weapon as if we were still stuck in 2012 ele design.

If we look at all post-expansion weapons: Warhorn is a good support weapon regardless of attunement. Hammer is a good DPS/bruiser weapon regardless of attunement. Sword is a good evade-and-damage weapon regardless of attunement (on Weaver, at least). Reworked Scepter became focused on DPSing regardless of attunement (EXCEPT for condi damage builds). MH Pistol, so far, is mostly a slight variation of Scepter.

Modern ele weapon design revolves around all attunements having a single, shared purpose, and then differing, secondary goals, which is probably the best way to do it. Anet's problem with pistol, however, is that they don't know what kind of damaging conditions they should put in air, which in turn forces their new condi-damage weapon (and condi scepter, as well) to be stuck in old 2012 design in that regard.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Skyroar.2974

[Jzaku.9765]

57 minutes ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

Pistol is meant to be, by Anet's own words, a condi-damage weapon, not a jack-of-all-trades weapon as if we were still stuck in 2012 ele design.

If we look at all post-expansion weapons: Warhorn is a good support weapon regardless of attunement. Hammer is a good DPS/bruiser weapon regardless of attunement. Sword is a good evade-and-damage weapon regardless of attunement (on Weaver, at least). Reworked Scepter became focused on DPSing regardless of attunement (EXCEPT for condi damage builds). MH Pistol, so far, is mostly a slight variation of Scepter.

Modern ele weapon design revolves around all attunements having a single, shared purpose, and then differing, secondary goals, which is probably the best way to do it. Anet's problem with pistol, however, is that they don't know what kind of damaging conditions they should put in air, which in turn forces their new condi-damage weapon (and condi scepter, as well) to be stuck in old 2012 design in that regard.

I think you are misunderstanding my point. You say 2012 design implying that having pure utility attunements is a bad thing. But DPS is completely up to coeff numbers tuning.

Would you rather have a build that hypothetically 42k using only Fire and Earth, or a build that also does 42k going through all 4 attunements?

The weapon can be designed to have pure utility attunements, but the end result of your DPS Build does not necessarily require all attunements to do DPS. For example, even right now, condi Scepter Weaver and Tempest builds do not use Water/Air yet basically do competitive DPS with Hammer Catalyst, which does cycle through all 4 attunements. 

In this way it's nothing but a benefit for Ele weapons to have some attunements that are pure utility. There's less for you to do and those attunements are always available to you, instead of being put on CD due to your rotation cycle. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Jzaku.9765

[Skyroar.2974]

5 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

I think you are misunderstanding my point. You say 2012 design implying that having pure utility attunements is a bad thing. But DPS is completely up to coeff numbers tuning.

Would you rather have a build that hypothetically 42k using only Fire and Earth, or a build that also does 42k going through all 4 attunements?

The weapon can be designed to have pure utility attunements, but the end result of your DPS Build does not necessarily require all attunements to do DPS. For example, even right now, condi Scepter Weaver and Tempest builds do not use Water/Air yet basically do competitive DPS with Hammer Catalyst, which does cycle through all 4 attunements. 

In this way it's nothing but a benefit for Ele weapons to have some attunements that are pure utility. There's less for you to do and those attunements are always available to you, instead of being put on CD due to your rotation cycle. 

I think the best solution is somewhere inbetween. I agree that it's best to have 2 main DPS attunements, but I disagree that the remaining 2 should be dreadful at DPS.

Having water and air being "decent but not great" at condi dps would be a good compromise. You wouldn't want to use them if you don't need the extra utility, but, if you do, your DPS loss wouldn't be too big.

Currently, however, "condi-damage" Pistol has 0 condi-damage in air.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Skyroar.2974

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

I'm actually so surprised many people want every attunement to be a DPS increase. I would think more people would inherently understand that its actually better that the go-to "build" has some attunements you just dont go into, so you have access to the toolbox skills inside on demand. 

In principle, I can agree with your sentiment. In practice, though, I see a few issues coming up:

First, like hammer, they've introduced a mechanic that seems to offer a benefit for cycling through all the attunements. Unlike hammer, it's not necessarily the ideal way of using it as opposed to spending the bullets 'in attunement', but they do seem to have taken into account the possibility that players might do so.

Similarly, elite specialisations might want you to cycle elements. Weaver has Weave Self. Catalyst will probably want to drop the air sphere every so often.

Third, they could have made a 'utility' attunement without it being such a clear 'kitten you'. If pistol wasn't designated as a condition weapon, one could see it as a position where the DPS attunements you use depends on whether you're going conditions or power - but given that designation, it's unlikely to be a suitable weapon for power builds. Under that circumstance, they could have made air a 'utility' attunement but still given it some conditions so it's less of a drop. Or they could have given confusion to air, and calibrated it so that air is better against fast-attacking opponents and weaker against slow-attacking opponents, encouraging the player to change their attunement use depending on what they're up against. Now that could have been interesting.

Last but certainly far from least:

This isn't the only time air attunement has been shafted.

Staff air is already a 'utility' attunement regardless of whether you're running power or conditions. The autoattack is bad, skill 2 seems to be primarily an area blind skill with the damage being secondary, and everything else does no damage. Scepter air is decent for a power build, but that's fallen out of favour outside of the sPvP Fresh Air spike build, due to being powercrept by other options (including condi sceptre). It's a bit tiring to see another ranged weapon where fire and earth are the designated primary attunements. Striking people with lightning at range is part of the elementalist fantasy - it would be nice to have more options to do that than just sceptre with its long ramp-up time.

[FrozenEve.6875]

12 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

In principle, I can agree with your sentiment. In practice, though, I see a few issues coming up:

First, like hammer, they've introduced a mechanic that seems to offer a benefit for cycling through all the attunements. Unlike hammer, it's not necessarily the ideal way of using it as opposed to spending the bullets 'in attunement', but they do seem to have taken into account the possibility that players might do so.

Similarly, elite specialisations might want you to cycle elements. Weaver has Weave Self. Catalyst will probably want to drop the air sphere every so often.

Third, they could have made a 'utility' attunement without it being such a clear 'kitten you'. If pistol wasn't designated as a condition weapon, one could see it as a position where the DPS attunements you use depends on whether you're going conditions or power - but given that designation, it's unlikely to be a suitable weapon for power builds. Under that circumstance, they could have made air a 'utility' attunement but still given it some conditions so it's less of a drop. Or they could have given confusion to air, and calibrated it so that air is better against fast-attacking opponents and weaker against slow-attacking opponents, encouraging the player to change their attunement use depending on what they're up against. Now that could have been interesting.

Last but certainly far from least:

This isn't the only time air attunement has been shafted.

Staff air is already a 'utility' attunement regardless of whether you're running power or conditions. The autoattack is bad, skill 2 seems to be primarily an area blind skill with the damage being secondary, and everything else does no damage. Scepter air is decent for a power build, but that's fallen out of favour outside of the sPvP Fresh Air spike build, due to being powercrept by other options (including condi sceptre). It's a bit tiring to see another ranged weapon where fire and earth are the designated primary attunements. Striking people with lightning at range is part of the elementalist fantasy - it would be nice to have more options to do that than just sceptre with its long ramp-up time.

Your final line definitely resonated with me as a long time GW1 Elementalist and how I have bemoaned the loss of specialising in an element such as Water attunement for the class fantasy. The forcing of having to almost always use fire and earth as damaging attunements is getting boring after so long.