Set Off Chain Reactions with the Engineer Short Bow Proficiency

[Bomboed.5697]

Imagine shortbow being a long range power weapon shooting arrows with rockets attached to them.
Imagine shortbow shooting some funky gadget-arrows like boxing glove or something like that.
Imagine shortbow being a long range condi weapon that shoots alchemical darts or bombs.
Imagine shortbow being able to actually shoot stuff at enemies instead of another ground-target bs.
Imagine shortbow being a weapon based on tesla theme.
Imagine shortbow shooting sawblades or something like that.

Imagine endless possibilities we will never see, because someone in Anet decided that engineer needs another support weapon with another set of 4 similar skills with same animation and all of them are ground-target AoEs.

[LichOverlord.6329]

3 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Not even angry, just disappointed. I was hoping for a reason to return to the game, so I was highly anticipating this weapon reveal. But I guess I just won't.

I'm not saying you're wrong, because I also think while the concept and skill animations are cool, its somewhat underwhelming seeing it in the video

But I also think it's silly to judge whether or not you'll play a game based off of a weapon, instead of... you know, the new metas, strikes, story, gameplay, etc.

Edit: sorry, that came off more personal than I indented - I realize everyone finds fun in their own way

Edited November 16, 2023 by LichOverlord.6329

[wasss.1208]

At first glance, I don't dislike this. I'm curious what kind of effects we'll be able to get out of the chain reactions. From the previewed skills, and the wording of the post, it seems like this will be a pure support weapon. It would be nice, if some of the skills/chain reactions would apply a good burst of conditions. But this is just my personal wish. Apart from this, the weapon objectively needs:
A blast finisher on low cooldown, so Scrappers could pick it up. Without this, support Scrapper just cannot work.
A crowd-control skill, for it to be even considered in PvP. For someone to pick this up, they are paying a hefty opportunity cost, and have to give up x/shield, that gives pretty good survivability/utility, or hammer, which does the same. Supports really need all the personal sustain they can get their hands on in PvP.
Not rooted animations, on 2-5. As people pointed it out, the animation seems to use Guardian/Ranger LB5 animation, which both are animationlocks. The weapon would feel awful to play, if every non AA skill would root you in your place.

Not must have, but it would be nice to have:
An explosive tagged skill, so it can interact with the Explosives traitline.
Large area for the skills. This is especially important in competitive modes, where things get hectic, and people spread out, or relocate quickly. There is a reason why the only viable supports in PvP have 600 area support skills.
Fast travel time for skills. Not sure, if they appear on the spot, instantly, or it needs more time based on the distance. Either way, it would be nice if our target would be still in the area, when the skill arrives.

Anyways, ranting over, we'll see how it plays during the beta.

[LichOverlord.6329]

I'm so tired of support weapons all inevitably just being "ground target well that pulses boons"

Like come on, can't we be a bit more creative?

[PaulPottwal.7239]

Can it atleast have a flip skill like Kneel on Deadeye Rifle, that gives you access to a defensive set of weapon skills or something? This weapon has no mobility, no iframes, no block, no quick access to CC and judging by the animation the canister skills seem to lock you in place while casting + engi can't even weapon swap to another weapon to make up for that. How is it supposed to be played in competitive modes? As a support you get focused hard and apparently you have no tools to deal with that on this weapon. You could make up for that with utility skills but that would take away alot of your support capacity

[Stx.4857]

One thing I don’t understand is, why does this have to be a pure support weapon when in many of the previous previews for new weapons they are “hybrid” support+power dps or support+damage?  Why is engineer the only class that needs to trade ‘attack power’ whatever that means for support?

[Burnfall.9573]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Looks like a superior version of Necro staff.

It sure is

[SeTect.5918]

1 hour ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Scepter IS a power weapon on ele. Every single attunement does high power damage with it. Only fire and earth provide damaging condis on scepter. Its clearly intended for power. Pistol looks like it will deal condi damage in all attunements. Scepter synergizes with Fresh Air builds more than any other ele weapon. To say Scepter is a condi weapon is major cope. 

Fire and earth are the only attunements that do condis on all its weapons, thats not a scepter specific thing. By your logic all ele weapons would be power based and none of it would be condi.
But ele has condi weapons. I consider every weapon that has the ability to deal high condi damage a condi weapon (or a hybrid weapon if you want so).
But Staff doesnt have this ability, so its a power weapon for example.

However scepter has this ability, in fact it is used in the snowcrows build for condi weaver which means its the best option for condi weaver atm.

Scepter is currently used on the weaver condi builds while sword is used on the power builds, which makes scepter a condi weapon. It might be its also a power weapon but its a condi weapon nonetheless.

Edited November 16, 2023 by SeTect.5918

[LichOverlord.6329]

24 minutes ago, Stx.4857 said:

One thing I don’t understand is, why does this have to be a pure support weapon when in many of the previous previews for new weapons they are “hybrid” support+power dps or support+damage?  Why is engineer the only class that needs to trade ‘attack power’ whatever that means for support?

Because the last time they tried to make an engineer be able to both do damage and support we got Mechanist

I dong think that the balance team is willing to try more hybrid engineer builds so soon, and honestly I can't blame them

Edited November 16, 2023 by LichOverlord.6329

[Dadnir.5038]

Turret engi don't work? Let's just put turrets on a weapon set. 🤣

[SeTect.5918]

40 minutes ago, Stx.4857 said:

One thing I don’t understand is, why does this have to be a pure support weapon when in many of the previous previews for new weapons they are “hybrid” support+power dps or support+damage?  Why is engineer the only class that needs to trade ‘attack power’ whatever that means for support?

I think a big problem is that engi has to swap out kits for support. But kits are the main source of damage of engi (at least on condi) such as attunement swapping is the main source of eles damage.
So whenever you need defense or support, you have to eliminate your damage by swapping out kits for support or defense utility skills.
I dont want to talk ele up here and engi down, but i like to compare these 2 classes because they are quite similar to each other in case of playstyle imo. However ele doesnt have this problem of damage loss because their source of damage is attunement swap while they cant take off attunements for support or defense but engi has to take its kits off.

Condi engi without kits is basically like condi ele without the ability to swap attunements.


But even on power a lot of damage is coming from the utility slots, more than on other classes because of the "additional utility slot" called "toolbelt". So swapping out one utility slot for support is taking 2 utility slots for damage off you.

Edited November 16, 2023 by SeTect.5918

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

24 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Fire and earth are the only attunements that do condis on all its weapons, thats not a scepter specific thing. By your logic all ele weapons would be power based and none of it would be condi.
But ele has condi weapons. I consider every weapon that has the ability to deal high condi damage a condi weapon (or a hybrid weapon if you want so).
But Staff doesnt have this ability, so its a power weapon for example.

However scepter has this ability, in fact it is used in the snowcrows build for condi weaver which means its the best option for condi weaver atm.

Scepter is currently used on the weaver condi builds while sword is used on the power builds, which makes scepter a condi weapon. It might be its also a power weapon but its a condi weapon nonetheless.

Yea last I checked in sPvP, scepter was used in power builds with some condi builds using it and sword was exclusively condi.

[Bomboed.5697]

I think it will be better to rework this into a Kit, because it is a kit "thing" to use the same animation for all skills.
And then make something actually good and fun for shortbow. Otherwise, it will be a trash weapon nobody asked for.

[SeTect.5918]

19 minutes ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Yea last I checked in sPvP, scepter was used in power builds with some condi builds using it and sword was exclusively condi.

Ye was also new to me that scepter is used for condi like 1-2 months ago when i came back to the game. I m not sure in pvp or wvw, but in pve it seems like the best condi option atm. It was still sword last year.

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

The mechanic of the bow would be far better on as utility skills. The way its designed right now pins us down in a rabbithole of either picking everything or nothing where we mightve benefited more from a variety of different mechanics, like other weapons.

Thats usually what you're looking for on a weapon, some damage/support, some mobility/acttive defense or CC that comes in different ways. And for the utilities we usually see these kind of thematically similair skills where the essence arrow would fit more.
We'd also be able to more freely choose which arrows wed want for our build. Not to mentiond the developers wouldnt have been forced to put the manual detonate as a flipover skill, but could instead place that part on the toolbelt - from here you could then have designed each arrow to have charges or ammo so you could connect multiple of one arrow. Just as an example

Regardless, the fluent and smooth combat system that GW2 is fameous for really isnt portrayed in this weapon so far

 

[LichOverlord.6329]

41 minutes ago, Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:

The mechanic of the bow would be far better on as utility skills. The way its designed right now pins us down in a rabbithole of either picking everything or nothing where we mightve benefited more from a variety of different mechanics, like other weapons.

Thats usually what you're looking for on a weapon, some damage/support, some mobility/acttive defense or CC that comes in different ways. And for the utilities we usually see these kind of thematically similair skills where the essence arrow would fit more.
We'd also be able to more freely choose which arrows wed want for our build. Not to mentiond the developers wouldnt have been forced to put the manual detonate as a flipover skill, but could instead place that part on the toolbelt - from here you could then have designed each arrow to have charges or ammo so you could connect multiple of one arrow. Just as an example

Regardless, the fluent and smooth combat system that GW2 is fameous for really isnt portrayed in this weapon so far

 

Absolutely 110% this

GW2 is known for having incredible depth of build and gameplay (compared to modern mmos specifically) and this just... isn't that.

It's basically taking a somewhat unique mechanical idea and letting it define the weapons design rather than drive the weapons design

This is essentially one well ability with different flavors copied across all 4 non-auto weapon skills, and any depth that they have exists solely within synergies between the flavours of the wells rather than the abilities themselves pairing with one another

•••

Honestly? This feels like more of a scrapped espec weapon than a new weapon they added solely for soto

Having similar skills on a weapon intended for a specific purpose works fine for especs where the traits then bring out the complexity of design - a trait that gives your auto attack an effect based on your most recent detonation, a trait that allows your elixir utilities to copy their boons across placed arrows, a trait that links placed arrows with a wire tether and when enemies cross it it detonates, etc.

I cant help but feel that this weapon feels... unfinished, as if it was meant to be a base to build upon with traits like an espec weapon, rather than a weapon in its own right

Edited November 16, 2023 by LichOverlord.6329

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Personally I think the mechanics and interplay behind the skills look really interesting. I think a lot of its success will depend on things like castable range, travel/cast time, how long of a delay there is until we can detonate each skill, whether detonates are instant cast, and how long it takes for the chain reaction to occur from flask to flask. If everything requires too many hardcasts with delays, it will likely feel meh to play in largescale WvW, which is the one area I see this weapon having the most potential for. That or you won't have enough time to play with the chain reaction mechanic, which in itself sounds amazing.

 

I am a major support enjoyer so I feel like I have been eating well with these weapon reveals, but hopefully they add at least one more weapon in the next expacs to come because it'd be a pretty big bummer to be a dps player and not have many new toys to play with. While I'm happy with shortbow's design approach, I am surprised they did choose to make it support considering mace/shield already exists and medkit is in a way a support weapon of its own (to an extent).

[Fishyflakes.5431]

Is this Harbinger Utility skills again?

[Bomboed.5697]

39 minutes ago, LichOverlord.6329 said:

Absolutely 110% this

GW2 is known for having incredible depth of build and gameplay (compared to modern mmos specifically) and this just... isn't that.

It's basically taking a somewhat unique mechanical idea and letting it define the weapons design rather than drive the weapons design

This is essentially one well ability with different flavors copied across all 4 non-auto weapon skills, and any depth that they have exists solely within synergies between the flavours of the wells rather than the abilities themselves pairing with one another

•••

Honestly? This feels like more of a scrapped espec weapon than a new weapon they added solely for soto

Having similar skills on a weapon intended for a specific purpose works fine for especs where the traits then bring out the complexity of design - a trait that gives your auto attack an effect based on your most recent detonation, a trait that allows your elixir utilities to copy their boons across placed arrows, a trait that links placed arrows with a wire tether and when enemies cross it it detonates, etc.

I cant help but feel that this weapon feels... unfinished, as if it was meant to be a base to build upon with traits like an espec weapon, rather than a weapon in its own right

For me it does not feel like a scrapped espec weapon. However, it strongly feels like a Kit.
I mean, a lot of Kits are designed in the same way: all skills work in somewhat the same way and use the same basic animation. This weapon is designed in exact same way as Grenade, Bomb and Mortar kits are designed.
And it feels wrong. Very wrong. Engineer does not have a weapon swap and because of that our weapons should be somewhat flexible and include different skills.

I beg Anet rework this into a Kit and give Engineer a proper shortbow designed as a weapon, not a kit.

[EdwinLi.1284]

5 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

You guys acting like they won't blow the whole budget into making Guardian Pistols the best and most overpowered weapons xD

They literally only play guard in wvw whenever I see Anet devs. They don't want you to play other professions. 

As someone who doesn't play engi these days, I can say kitten, this is terrible lmfao!

I mean people can finally live out their dreams to be the Space Marine of GW2 with Pistol on Guardian.

Now back to purging the Heretics! For the Emperor!

[LilBiM.3581]

Alright. I'm curious. There is potential here but I imagine that the AA and combos / interactions will have to be spicy. If it's turns out to be not that good then it might very well require weapon swap to be good or perhaps something like ToolKit to have it's numbers raised.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

     Well, I am neither happy for it nor am I sad. I am overall neutral on the weapon because I didn't care for it from the start. My main interest for weapon types in games are guns and rapiers, and engi already had those options for me already. So there is not much they could do that would make me interested in a new weapon for them because engi already has dual pistols which I adore for my condi builds. Overall, I am ok it exits /10 for it.

[Daxia.1425]

I guess we will see, idea looks cool and stupid at the same time. Using a shortbow was not one of the things on my list to have as an engineer. I wonder what the range will be. Can it shoot on top of walls?

They add something new, which is fun but leaving out some issues like the elites. Kind of feel like they add stuff for the adding and not looking at balance or improvement. My mortar can hardly bomb any walls while rangers fire their arrows anywhere they want. Give me more teleports with a bunch of boons like the willbender. Give me something useful! We aren't the clowns of GW2 to test dummy your 'fun' ideas on an then nerf it and rending it useless.  *frustrated engineer* 

[Bomboed.5697]

7 minutes ago, Daxia.1425 said:

We aren't the clowns of GW2 to test dummy your 'fun' ideas on an then nerf it and rending it useless.  *frustrated engineer* 

I have bad news for you....

[Daevhalla.7823]

7 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Looks like a superior version of Necro staff.

My thoughts exactly.