Sword-Wielding Necromancers Are Gluttons for Punishment

[Loboling.5293]

22 hours ago, goldengut.9134 said:

 sorry but for me i wanted something that gave our class something we don't have much of atm, a block, evade, stab maybe a type of reflect, 

Or maybe a leap skill... If only there was just something, ANYTHING, this weapon had that was unique compared to other necro weapons. If only... 😜

[Batalix.2873]

5 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

How would the Scourge support Power swords?

The Swords with the damage buffs from Reaper and Harbinger traitline's in mind to get the proper damage levels needed for end game content.

 

Without the Scourge having any damage buffs for strike damage how are you thinking you'll build a Scourge to make use of power swords?

I had tried making a Scourge making use of the great life force generation of the dagger and taking advantage of the AOE sand skills... But it just didn't work.

Without condi damage I just don't see the swords being better for Scourge.

Actually there was at least for some time a healalac Scourge build that used power more than condi for its base damage. Just after the alac changes in June it was doing almost 10k DPS with a simple rotation.

If anything, a power weapon that sacrifices health could synergize well with HealScourge, since all the barrier and sustained healing would compensate.

Granted, Healalac Scourge is not very versatile with boons and utility and pretty much only wanted for progging and saving noobs, but imo that's still a cool niche that should be preserved.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Teknomancer.4895]

I'm a little bemused by the people who are saying that swords are going to replace this, that or the other existing weapon when we haven't even had the chance to try it out yet.

Let's not jump to conclusions; this is ANet we're dealing with here. They tend not to communicate things clearly, if they bother doing it at all.

Necro sword could be the Mother of all Shinies and render all other weapons obsolete, it could be all flash and no substance, or it could be anywhere in between.

I'll wait until testing it before I form any real opinions about it other than "it looks cool."

[Roadkizzle.2157]

5 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Actually there was at least for some time a healalac Scourge build that used power more than condi for its base damage. Just after the alac changes in June it was doing almost 10k DPS with a simple rotation.

If anything, a power weapon that sacrifices health could synergize well with HealScourge, since all the barrier and sustained healing would compensate.

Granted, Healalac Scourge is not very versatile with boons and utility and pretty much only wanted for progging and saving noobs, but imo that's still a cool niche that should be preserved.

10k DPS in a meta that was averaging 45k DPS?

The weapon at that point doesn't matter in the slightest. Just whichever one gives the most Life Force probably.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

11 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

A few points:

• Scourge is never locked out of it's weapons.
• Scourge benefit of death perception while F5 is running making it the only one that have the damage bonus applied to weaponskills.
• Scourge have the benefit of the barrier cushion.
• Scourge's shade mechanism work both at melee range and mid range (900 range).

All of those are well and good. But it doesn't matter when you're only doing 20k damage instead of the 35-40k you'd be doing with a Condition build or with the other specs. 

[draxynnic.3719]

18 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

I'm cautiously optimistic about these, emphasis cautiously. 

On one hand, I've thought I'd never see the day Necromancer would get any mechanic beyond Boon Corrupt/Removal on weapons - so even just a single mobility skill (although granted, we don't know the extend of it yet, and it might get nerfed before ever seeing the light of release like Harbinger Shroud's mobility) is in a way revolutionary for Necromancer. 

On the other hand - while I don't think Swords as weapons would have been a fitting place for it, seeing how almost every profession got support elements on their new Weapons, it is pretty strange to see Necro, the one class with essentially close to absolute zero group support/interaction on their weapons (literally just some Regen and Condi removal on Staff), be one of the few exceptions here yet again. 

Additionally, it's a bit odd that they chose Strike Damage for these. If Sword/Sword turns out to be good, it essentially invalidates Axe, Dagger MH, Greatsword, Staff, Focus and Warhorn as weapons, in PvE at least, in my book, which never offered much compelling benefits to begin with, since Necro weapons largely have just been damage with little to no mechanics, like mobility, evades, blocks, boon support, projectile mitigation, cleanses, combo interactions, stealth, etc. 

With Scepter now also disappearing behind Pistol, and Dagger OH having been replaced by Torch in the Condi Landscape - we'll likely see just Pistol/Torch (Condi) and Sword/Sword (Power) as only proper "options" (with Scepter and Greatword on swap at most), with still zero dedicated Support options, and a graveyard of obsolete weapon kits. 

Now I've seen some people being optimistic here about potentially Dagger MH and Warhorn, or maybe even Staff, becoming proper Support Weapons now. About Axe reworks, Focus overhauls, and what have you. 

But I've been waiting for those for almost 11 years already, and nothing prevented a say proper Dagger, Warhorn and Focus overhaul up to this point either. Sword/Sword existing doesn't really make this more likely - unless old Weapon, Utility and Trait reworks will be the focus/"feature" of the next expansion or something. 

 

As for the Sword's themselves - I don't really share the excitement of some others about things like Health Sacrifice as a mechanic. 

Mechanics like that are usually either too punishing, too weak or obsolete/non-mechanics. It's not like they can give Sword/Sword crazy damage for the cost of health, as the kit would then overperform in group content where they can be freely used with a healer. So more likely, Necro will have to sacrifice health to do just as much damage as every other class does without that downside - which will then just screw the kit in solo play and such, without that dedicated healer by your side. Either that, or they make the cost and/or benefit so low that it doesn't really matter in either setting. 

It's like Dagger MH 3 self Bleed, or Corruption's self conditions, Blight, or comparing Signet of Mercy res vs. Signet of Undeath res, etc. - it's not like having to punish yourself makes these kits do anything fantastical above what weapon kits or Utilities of other classes can do without that downside, quite the opposite, they are often even weaker in effect despite of their downsides. You just have to pay an extra price because it's "thematic" to Necro, without any actual unique benefit or mechanical complexity.

So this isn't exactly a selling point of Swords to me - but at least a straight health sacrifice won't be a Dagger 3 "screw yourself in solo play by making you stuck in combat with a self Bleed for little to no benefit" kind of deal. 

But who knows, with them being advertised as "stealing life" as well, maybe they got the balance right and it will make for a fun little life juggling gameplay loop - let's just hope it doesn't include any Life Siphon as mechanic though, dooming the weapon kit like Focus 4 and Warhorn 5 due to not benefitting from any Damage modifiers and lack of ability to Crit. 

Last but not least, I do think these Weapons need to come with a complete overhaul or massive buff to Power Harbinger and it's top line - otherwise, from what we know so far, this is literally just for Reaper, which between >50% Shroud uptime, Nightfall and Well pre-casts into Shroud, and Gravedigger Spam below 50% (which imo does need to change as well), barely spends any time using any weapon skills. Or potentially even Sand Savant, Feed from Corruption and Nourishing Ashes making room for a Scourge Power line, idk.

Strike Damage weapon kits are pretty much the one thing Necro 1. already had in abundance (just bad and in need of reworks since a decade), 2. barely spends any time on and 3. really have only one single Elite Spec as use case as of now.

I could see the balance point being that in group content, it does about the same damage as other options...

...but when you don't have a pocket healer, it becomes REALLY resilient if you don't use the flipover skills and leverage that self-healing for survival instead. So in a solo environment, it can allow you to adjust on the fly whether damage or self-sustain is more important to you. Feel like there's basically no damage coming your way? Sacrifice some health for that big deeps! Feeling heavily pressured and just hanging on? Stick to just harvesting the enemy's life until the situation stabilises. Switch between high deeps glass or selfhealing tank based on whatever you need at the time, even if you're running full Berzerker's!

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

after watching the video several times, I've concluded that the swords are more or less like if a harbinger (leap) glued a dagger (life steal) to an axe (a ranged 'melee' weapon), then engraved a Signet of Undeath (life sacrifice) on them, and now they're pretending to be something new 🫤

Edited November 23, 2023 by Arianth Moonlight.6453

[Asum.4960]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I could see the balance point being that in group content, it does about the same damage as other options...

...but when you don't have a pocket healer, it becomes REALLY resilient if you don't use the flipover skills and leverage that self-healing for survival instead. So in a solo environment, it can allow you to adjust on the fly whether damage or self-sustain is more important to you. Feel like there's basically no damage coming your way? Sacrifice some health for that big deeps! Feeling heavily pressured and just hanging on? Stick to just harvesting the enemy's life until the situation stabilises. Switch between high deeps glass or selfhealing tank based on whatever you need at the time, even if you're running full Berzerker's!

And while that does sound cool on paper, my point of contention is that then would compete with existing incredibly high powered, virtually immortal, Condi/Hybrid solo builds which can solo T4 Fractals and the like without ever dropping below 95% Health, while blasting their damage at 100% of their potential all of the time. 

Can I see this potentially being more fun, especially with the mobility aspect of the kit (if the skills are not movement locked/more fluid than they look a bit in the preview)? Certainly, at least for a time. 

Granted, they will probably be great for very casual play in OW content, where there is basically zero pressure, and that is the target audience - I'm sure we will see a flood of Sword/Sword camping Necro's there. And in PvP it's an auto include for Necromancer on likely every single build that will ever be made if the mobility skill is decent. If it's DPS is also good in group endgame PvE content with the flip over spam with a healer -  I suppose that really all it needs to and can be. 

We'll see.

[Strider.7849]

I have to say, this is the first elite spec weapon I'm looking forward to. I was disappointed with several others, especially my main (Ranger) but this one looks amazing.

[Obtena.7952]

11 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

All of those are well and good. But it doesn't matter when you're only doing 20k damage instead of the 35-40k you'd be doing with a Condition build or with the other specs. 

That might make sense if DPS is the only thing that matters. 

You ask how Scourge supports power swords. It's actually not that hard to see how if you don't boil the game down to 'only DPS matters' mentality. Looks like swords are offering some combination of range/mobility/life stealing. Seems like a pretty nice combination of effects that compliments  Scourge toolset in competitive modes from where I sit. 

I mean, the answer to your question is 'we will see when it's released and people try it'. No reason to speculate power sword Scourge can't be a thing at this point. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Ashen.2907]

This one has me intrigued. Its the only one I am paryicularly looking forward to seeing in play. Hopefully it lives up to its potential.

[draxynnic.3719]

18 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

And while that does sound cool on paper, my point of contention is that then would compete with existing incredibly high powered, virtually immortal, Condi/Hybrid solo builds which can solo T4 Fractals and the like without ever dropping below 95% Health, while blasting their damage at 100% of their potential all of the time. 

Can I see this potentially being more fun, especially with the mobility aspect of the kit (if the skills are not movement locked/more fluid than they look a bit in the preview)? Certainly, at least for a time. 

Granted, they will probably be great for very casual play in OW content, where there is basically zero pressure, and that is the target audience - I'm sure we will see a flood of Sword/Sword camping Necro's there. And in PvP it's an auto include for Necromancer on likely every single build that will ever be made if the mobility skill is decent. If it's DPS is also good in group endgame PvE content with the flip over spam with a healer -  I suppose that really all it needs to and can be. 

We'll see.

Oh, for sure. Power weapon that might have a ranged auto is pretty close to being the opposite of what I expected swords to be. 

[Calen.8945]

I really, really, hope the swords are not ranged weapons.

[arazoth.7290]

5 hours ago, Calen.8945 said:

I really, really, hope the swords are not ranged weapons.

I think semi melee/ranged weapon, like max some 600 ranged attacks. Then you still have to get close up enough in melee, but easier to stay on target 

[Batalix.2873]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:22 PM, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

10k DPS in a meta that was averaging 45k DPS?

The weapon at that point doesn't matter in the slightest. Just whichever one gives the most Life Force probably.

10k DPS on a heal build is thoroughly respectable.

Also imo DPS has crept too high, I miss the days when it took a lot of skill to break 30k.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

On 11/24/2023 at 12:47 PM, Batalix.2873 said:

10k DPS on a heal build is thoroughly respectable.

Also imo DPS has crept too high, I miss the days when it took a lot of skill to break 30k.

That's my point though. Heal builds aren't expected to do any damage.

Heal builds choose gear based on Healing, Concentration, and possibly toughness if you want to be tank also.

The damage isn't what's needed for a healing support build so what else do the weapons provide for a heal Scourge?

 

Dagger only has generating life force but the trait buffing daggers competes with Revive trait. 

[Batalix.2873]

58 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

That's my point though. Heal builds aren't expected to do any damage.

Heal builds choose gear based on Healing, Concentration, and possibly toughness if you want to be tank also.

The damage isn't what's needed for a healing support build so what else do the weapons provide for a heal Scourge?

 

Dagger only has generating life force but the trait buffing daggers competes with Revive trait. 

Eh I do agree with purity of purpose, but not all healers need to be play the same and be equally impotent. There definitely could be room for more limited healers like Scourge to do a smidge more DPS or other unique things pure healers cannot.

My point, is that power hScourge is just as, if not more, viable than condi hScourge, and that a power weapon that also benefits from spending health might naturally synergize with healScourges that are already unkillable. Not only would it make for meaningful risk-reward play options on a relatively safe build, but add a unique game loop dimension to Scourge beyond spamming barrier.

It's not necessarily about whether hScourge does damage, but whether it has something interesting to do.

 

[Doctor Hide.6345]

I am curious to try these out. It does seem very vampiry which intrigues me.

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

On 11/20/2023 at 12:11 PM, psizone.8437 said:

Harbinger has power traits through the whole line. Pick the top choice on all traits in the Harb line, though I do still prefer the quickness GM trait over the +240 power one.

The other 2 don't compare anywhere close to what the quickness trait does 

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

18 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Eh I do agree with purity of purpose, but not all healers need to be play the same and be equally impotent. There definitely could be room for more limited healers like Scourge to do a smidge more DPS or other unique things pure healers cannot.

My point, is that power hScourge is just as, if not more, viable than condi hScourge, and that a power weapon that also benefits from spending health might naturally synergize with healScourges that are already unkillable. Not only would it make for meaningful risk-reward play options on a relatively safe build, but add a unique game loop dimension to Scourge beyond spamming barrier.

It's not necessarily about whether hScourge does damage, but whether it has something interesting to do.

 

 

On 11/24/2023 at 6:38 AM, arazoth.7290 said:

I think semi melee/ranged weapon, like max some 600 ranged attacks. Then you still have to get close up enough in melee, but easier to stay on target 

I hope they are range, 1200 pls

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

On 11/23/2023 at 10:11 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

That might make sense if DPS is the only thing that matters. 

You ask how Scourge supports power swords. It's actually not that hard to see how if you don't boil the game down to 'only DPS matters' mentality. Looks like swords are offering some combination of range/mobility/life stealing. Seems like a pretty nice combination of effects that compliments  Scourge toolset in competitive modes from where I sit. 

I mean, the answer to your question is 'we will see when it's released and people try it'. No reason to speculate power sword Scourge can't be a thing at this point. 

High chance power scourge will be a thing with these, ontop of barriers to help mitigate the sacing of ur hp,  and mobility combined with scourges more melee range skills.

 

But ofc dual swords benefits reaper the most, for obvious reasons.

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

On 11/22/2023 at 6:47 PM, Teknomancer.4895 said:

I'm a little bemused by the people who are saying that swords are going to replace this, that or the other existing weapon when we haven't even had the chance to try it out yet.

Let's not jump to conclusions; this is ANet we're dealing with here. They tend not to communicate things clearly, if they bother doing it at all.

Necro sword could be the Mother of all Shinies and render all other weapons obsolete, it could be all flash and no substance, or it could be anywhere in between.

I'll wait until testing it before I form any real opinions about it other than "it looks cool."

It already has better animation on skills, compared to well axe..1... Let me wave my axe at you, oo000oooo scary 000ooo000

[psizone.8437]

On 11/21/2023 at 6:06 AM, Loules.8601 said:

To me it’s not like this. I don’t think that we see auto-attacks at all. And in all videos we see only a few skills at most. Considering it as a ranged weapon from this - looks questionably to me. 

Well the livestream confirmed it's ranged and what we thought was the autoattack, was.

Looks pretty decent, too!

[arazoth.7290]

17 minutes ago, psizone.8437 said:

Well the livestream confirmed it's ranged and what we thought was the autoattack, was.

Looks pretty decent, too!

yess, 900 range looked nice ! I am really curious though how much the self damaging will get used in WvW/pvp

[psizone.8437]

Just now, arazoth.7290 said:

I am really curious though how much the self damaging will get used in WvW/pvp

I can see it being used more with celestial builds, especially if the self healing part of the abilities scales well with healing power.