Concerns about the future of the game for veteran players

[Ashantara.8731]

2 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

Why do you think that update 1 was huge disappointment?

Because it was nowhere "major". The story had 15 mins of playtime and was plain boring, the first piece of the third map was completely unspectacular (especially compared to the quality of the first two maps), the Strike CM was lame, all new achievements were dumb grinds, and Convergences are pure filler content.

2 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

Also reading your whole comment show us that you need break since you ignore reality.

To me, it is obvious that you are ignoring the reality of things, but hey. 🤷‍♀️
 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[Randulf.7614]

I've mostly enjoyed SoTo, although Nayos has been massively underwhelming so far. I'd have rather had all the instances and an extra convergence than a tiny sliver of map with a constant cycle of the same events. It lacks any of the creative design GW2 maps were always known for,. Even the map storytelling is light. Compare to the first part of Drizzlewood was an example of how to create a rich partial map. And that was when they had more resources and EoD in development. I don't understand why we are gettiong less when supposedly they are less constricted

My biggest issue remains that whilst I like SoTo, it has not fulfilled its objective in freeing up resources to allow the game to focus on other areas. It's great they have (hopefully) created a better workload balance, but the output isn't there. WvW remains neglected. PvP remains negelcted. Raids remain neglected. Bugs are popping up ever more frequently. Even open world lacks reasons to return if you don't want legendary armour.

Yes, the story is much better and the first two maps are pretty decent, but we seem to be getting less than Icebrood Saga which should be a bit of a red flag. Update 2 looks to be the main Nayos meta, but it will have a lot of heavy lifting to do to counter the drag from update 1

I am still very much enjoying the rest of the game though. There does seem to be a lot of reasons to play all the content across the board now and it feels populated in a healthy way. If this is the twilight years, at least I'm getting my fun from it. I just think it's slipped a bit since a strong start to SoTo

[Artemis.8034]

You see this in every game, vets that have played the longest have done it all, and if the content updates dont keep up it becomes stale. new players have to go through that long grindy path all the vets have already done. Its also kinda why horizontal progression sometimes sucks, once you done everything there is nothing to strive for. You run over the same ground but for what really? you have everything. New players will have years of the road ahead of them, while vets have been there done that

[KindredPhoenyx.8976]

8 hours ago, Artemis.8034 said:

You see this in every game, vets that have played the longest have done it all, and if the content updates dont keep up it becomes stale. new players have to go through that long grindy path all the vets have already done. Its also kinda why horizontal progression sometimes sucks, once you done everything there is nothing to strive for. You run over the same ground but for what really? you have everything. New players will have years of the road ahead of them, while vets have been there done that

Yeah this is the problem I have run into. I actively talk about how I have done quite literally everything in this game, multiple times over. For a new player, I sound like a total crackhead for saying that, and when I last said it, it was a huge eye opener to me for me to realise "ok there's nothing for me to do, time to step away awhile and come back when there's more content releases."

And I agree this also isn't specifically an issue to GW2: I've got mates in FF and my partner plays WoW religiously, and all of them have mentioned getting burned out/bored because they've done everything and are just waiting for new content to drop to sate the drought.

9 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

we seem to be getting less than Icebrood Saga which should be a bit of a red flag.

This is my concern too, but I'd want to remind people that Anet are strained for resources right now- whether that's budget related or not, we don't know, but you can feel it. While people are absolutely entitled to wanting more out of the game, and better quality, NCsoft right now is either bleeding GW2 or ignoring it in favor of other projects (that so far, seem to be failing, and laughably so.)
I'm honestly wondering if Anet would do better as a stand alone publisher, or look for another publisher that would benefit better (dear god that thought scares me though because I wouldn't want to see GW2 in the hands of Amazon or even Activision.)

Edited December 11, 2023 by KindredPhoenyx.8976

[KindredPhoenyx.8976]

10 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

The story had 15 mins of playtime and was plain boring, the first piece of the third map was completely unspectacular (especially compared to the quality of the first two maps)

I am paranoid this is another case of Gyala Delve but I'm waiting to see what the entirety of Nayos is like before I go banging that drum entirely. Next two updates could impress us and the overall meta could be another Drizzlewood (which I honestly thought was a banger).

I'm probably just coping there though, lmao.

Edited December 11, 2023 by KindredPhoenyx.8976

[Astralporing.1957]

16 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

In any case, at the moment, with the huge disappointment that was Update 1, it feels a lot like they published 2/3 of SotO on release and are now splitting the remaining 1/3 between three mini-updates. That's basically nine (!) months without proper[*] content releases before the next expansion release.

*) refers to quantity, but also overall quality of those mini-updates
 

What did you expect? They basically said outright that the reason for change in release model was because they were no longer able to sustain previous release quantity. Sure, they might have tried to downplay that message, but it still was quite clearly communicated. Now, of course, the loss of quality was not automatically a given, but it should also have been expected. Lack of resources does have its consequences, after all.

[Hsanrb.1570]

Can you imagine players who spent months/years of their lives playing the game and have accomplished everything they want to do with the game taking a break and (gasp) playing other games? This isn't a Guild Wars 2 thing, this isn't an MMO thing, this is a gaming thing... where people who play one game or genre eventually get worn out and decide to play other games. Guild Wars 2 gets more attention because horizontal progression means players cannot strive for bigger numbers, so once all the mastery tracks get marked everything is cosmetic. That doesn't mean SotO is a bad expansion, or that Guild Wars 2 is in a terrible state, it just means the .1% or 1% of players who have done everything have no obligation to stick around. Yes they could fill random LFG parties, or play random map metas... but they have zero incentive to bother unless they actually enjoy particular content.

Not to mention there is no financial incentive for developers to cater to them, sure having challenging content is great... but if you spend a month creating a challenging encounter, and then the top players clear it in 2 days, they will not be satisfied and then the average player who wants to clear it with the guides gets to do it in a week, and the blind groups clear it in 2 weeks (because builds haven't really changed) and you've created content for a small fragment of your community that doesn't really have value to keep doing. Other MMO's can trickle better loot so the raiders keep raiding, but Guild Wars 2 doesn't get luxury.

The biggest problem with the new content schedule, is that while LWS had entire maps when they launch, that also meant the story and the meta for the maps also contained the whole plot. Playing Inner Nayos feels off, because the story feels like its on pause... and the map meta builds into nothing because theres 2 more pieces until the map comes to completion.  Its great theres content to do, but its awful to play knowing in 3 months the next piece that extends the story AND the meta will be attached to the end (and more time it takes to complete and cycle around again) I don't want to do part of a meta, I want to do the entire meta... so I did the story and just went and did other things. I cannot be the only casual person who thinks the scheduling change has diminished the "new map" feel of content.

PS: I hate flying...

[Gerebos.1065]

As long as the devs respect the F2P and P2P balance and reduce the amount of things are reused like animations it's somewhat okay.
For example I am sick of all these gatings which are constantly added to the stories,achievements,etc, same reused instant killing boss mechanics...when you fight on a cliff you can be 110% sure that the boss have at least one push mechanic...and the list can go on.Yet as a veteran I accepted it,I got used to it with a reduced gametime spent on Gw2.

When things gets balanced I'll be back,luckily you pick up the game where you left 😉

[TheNurgle.4825]

16 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Because it was nowhere "major". The story had 15 mins of playtime and was plain boring, the first piece of the third map was completely unspectacular (especially compared to the quality of the first two maps), the Strike CM was lame, all new achievements were dumb grinds, and Convergences are pure filler content.

We are in full circle. "major" you knoew exactrly what you will get months ahead and you know what you get in next 2 updates. Story was not boring. Sad that one of new ones die shortly after you find it. So third map which is more original than first map is unspectacular? Also Inner Nayos meta looks like most popular one based on LFG. How is CO CM lame? I already answer you that almost all achievements in game are dumb grinds. Convergences are content which a lot ppl do and enjoy with it being case due to possible rewards.

 

Again everything you write just scream "I need break from the game".

 

[TheNurgle.4825]

2 hours ago, Balsa.3951 said:

on the other hand nothing to do anymore so it feels meaningless.

This is good point. In the end you have 2 type of players. One which need to exactly be told what content to play and other which do whatever they want. First type mostly play content once and they are done with it and you can ever satisfy that kind of ppl. Second type are more creative and they the ones which do "crazy" or incredible things in the game like "let me solo this instanced content designed for 10 ppl." or "Let's do this without heals and no dodges."

[Ashantara.8731]

3 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

Again everything you write just scream "I need break from the game".

Nonsense.

3 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

We are in full circle. "major" you knoew exactrly what you will get months ahead and you know what you get in next 2 updates.

No. They never said anywhere, "Hey, listen, we are going to give you proper content on release and then drip-feed you tiny mini-updates for the remaining nine months, which we will advertize in our blog as 'major' updates, of course."

3 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

Story was not boring.

Yes, it was. It was blant and short, and moreover the story missions were 0% fun nor challenging in any way, and the open world events didn't excite me either in the least.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[Krajtin.8956]

I'm really concerned about the current state of GW2. Because as others have said, IceBroodSaga was good except for Champions. We only have to look at the job offers in the company and the vast majority are for the supposed new project.

And it is evident that 90% of the resources generated by GW2 are allocated to that project because otherwise we would have a LW + Expansion. And I think this is a decision by NCsoft and that worries me because it could be a GW3 and I don't want it

[enigmatic.3576]

21 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I've mostly enjoyed SoTo, although Nayos has been massively underwhelming so far. I'd have rather had all the instances and an extra convergence than a tiny sliver of map with a constant cycle of the same events. It lacks any of the creative design GW2 maps were always known for,. Even the map storytelling is light. Compare to the first part of Drizzlewood was an example of how to create a rich partial map. And that was when they had more resources and EoD in development. I don't understand why we are gettiong less when supposedly they are less constricted

My biggest issue remains that whilst I like SoTo, it has not fulfilled its objective in freeing up resources to allow the game to focus on other areas. It's great they have (hopefully) created a better workload balance, but the output isn't there. WvW remains neglected. PvP remains negelcted. Raids remain neglected. Bugs are popping up ever more frequently. Even open world lacks reasons to return if you don't want legendary armour.

Yes, the story is much better and the first two maps are pretty decent, but we seem to be getting less than Icebrood Saga which should be a bit of a red flag. Update 2 looks to be the main Nayos meta, but it will have a lot of heavy lifting to do to counter the drag from update 1

I am still very much enjoying the rest of the game though. There does seem to be a lot of reasons to play all the content across the board now and it feels populated in a healthy way. If this is the twilight years, at least I'm getting my fun from it. I just think it's slipped a bit since a strong start to SoTo

The announcement about the motivations behind the new content release structure was primarily marketing/PR speak.  We've seen the same thing over the years so it's nothing new. 

The change was about one thing: profit.  They'll bring in more money from players with expansions and especially if they release them annually.  They also charge roughly 85% of the price of PoF and EoD expansions while providing half the content at best.  The "post-expansion/season" content is about 17% of what we used to get with an expansion purchase.  That's a significant increase in profit from previous models.  It's also why DLCs in any game are a big thing for developers so this isn't anything new.

The work life balance thing may or may not be true.  If all they did was just shove the staff to the expansion development team to churn out expansions every year, then any improvement in that aspect could be marginal.  

[Mickey.4207]

On 12/8/2023 at 7:34 PM, Ashantara.8731 said:

I see veterans I have known for years leaving the game or only sporadically logging in anymore, while my guild chats have been filling up with new names of new players. I am beginning to see a pattern here:

With...

• the recent Steam release,
• the fact that new legendary armor sets were made SotO-only, so that new players who start with SotO can grind for the QoL convenience,
• some mounts and gliding being made available in an easier way,
• the new in-game shortcuts provided by the Wizard's Vault and the Gem Store,
• the small size of Update 1,
• the increase in no-fun grind achievements,
• the lack of exciting new instanced content (of proper difficulty),

... and some other recent aspects in the development of the game, I am wondering if it is ANet's deliberate intention to attract and only cater to new players now?

Are hardcore players who have been around since release no longer lucrative customers? Or what other reason is there for us to be left without anything fun to do in our favorite MMORPG?
 

Oh the horror that a game is trying to attract new players rather than catering to old players who have already achieved pretty much everything in the game and want to play the game more casually. Shocking 

[Junkpile.7439]

Biggest problem is that PvE is trash. Remove alacrity, quickness and boon sharing. If everybody bring own boons combat will be 100 times better.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Junkpile.7439

[Ashantara.8731]

16 hours ago, Mickey.4207 said:

Oh the horror that a game is trying to attract new players rather than catering to old players who have already achieved pretty much everything in the game and want to play the game more casually. Shocking 

That is not what I meant at all. Nowhere did I say that I don't welcome new players. 🤦‍♀️

What I was trying to communicate, but apparently failed, is that...

1. new players still have 11 years of content to enjoy (and the old content is of high quality and quantity), while veterans are being left with mini-updates like the Gyala Delve tunnel and SotO 1, and that this is not enough to keep veterans in the game.
    
2. the Wizard's Vault and the Gem Store also show this trend towards the "New players first!" agenda lately by adding shortcut items... and several noob traps, too. These are clearly not directed at veterans.
    

22 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

Story was not boring.

Let me elaborate on why the SotO 1 story bit was super blant and boring:

I expected some intrigue, dark schemes and power games in Nayos. I expected some demon version of Game of Thrones, where you are left wondering whom you can trust and who you can win over for your cause. (Now, this all might still come in the next two updates, but in SotO 1 it just wasn't there.)

Instead, we were greeted with a blant, straight-forward "These are the good guys, and these are the bad guys. Now, let's go kill the bad guys." (No wonder it was only 15 mins of playtime.)

If you consider that to be good story-telling, your standards must be very low.
 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[KindredPhoenyx.8976]

3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I expected some intrigue, dark schemes and power games in Nayos. I expected some demon version of Game of Thrones, where you are left wondering whom you can trust and who you can win over for your cause. (Now, this all might still come in the next two updates, but in SotO 1 it just wasn't there.)

Am I... naive or something because I actually had that sense the entire time I was playing. Or I have a deep sense of distrust towards people in general, because even I thought the Astral Ward was a bit sus tbh (except R'tchik and Glade: I will (jokingly) kill everyone in this room, and then myself before I see any harm come to them >_>). 
 

 

3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Instead, we were greeted with a blant, straight-forward "These are the good guys, and these are the bad guys. Now, let's go kill the bad guys." (No wonder it was only 15 mins of playtime.)

If you consider that to be good story-telling, your standards must be very low.

*cough* so what's been the past ten years then?

Pact good. We good. Elder dragon bad.  Go kill dragon. You hero!

Not much has changed there bucko.

Edited December 12, 2023 by KindredPhoenyx.8976

[Ashantara.8731]

1 hour ago, KindredPhoenyx.8976 said:

*cough* so what's been the past ten years then?

While I agree on that sentiment, at least the quantity was there.

SotO started out great story- and otherwise, so I assumed we were over such boring "straight-foward-bad-guy-bashings." 😉

[Sifolstour.3210]

Sadly what we all should know at this point is where the coin has fallen.

  The worst part of it is that I'm 100% sure they are making now more money than when anet was doing the right thing with this once amazing game.

  This later exp was like an april's fool, sadly soto is going to be my last purchase if they keep with this stuff.

[Ashantara.8731]

On 12/11/2023 at 1:32 PM, TheNurgle.4825 said:

This is good point. In the end you have 2 type of players. One which need to exactly be told what content to play and other which do whatever they want. First type mostly play content once and they are done with it and you can ever satisfy that kind of ppl.

That's a really bold claim, when I played through every campaign (core game, expacs and LW seasons) on 9-13 characters over the years. However, I have played through SotO 1 and the Gyala Delve update only twice, as both content drops felt like a bad joke -- that should tell you something.

You need to accept the fact that there are those who always play "whatever they want" and still feel left with nothing fun/worth to do at the current state of the game.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[KindredPhoenyx.8976]

3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

While I agree on that sentiment, at least the quantity was there.

SotO started out great story- and otherwise, so I assumed we were over such boring "straight-foward-bad-guy-bashings." 😉

A lot of games will generally point the player at x antagonist to fight as part of gameplay and be painted as a hero by NPCs. People like that gratification of what they're doing is right especially from a storytelling perspective.

This isn't Baldur's Gate 3 where you're intentionally given the choice to do evil things from the get go, but even if you were, you're still killing "the bad guy" (as perceieved by you). That doesn't change.

It's a stigma in gaming that'll always exist where combat is concerned, even in FFXIV so as "boring" as it seems, killing is more fun than being a pacifist and capturing instead (It's simply not as rewarding as a loot pinata that killing bosses tends to be. Dopamine or something).

(Gaming makes us all a bit psychotic lets be real lmao).

Edited December 12, 2023 by KindredPhoenyx.8976

[Luthan.5236]

I don't see any good way to do it differently. New players surely bring a lot more money from the "noob traps" and paying for skins while a veteran trying to complete everything ... has more gameplay and does need to buy less from the gem store. (Especially if thy already have maxed the bank tabs, storage expanders - and stuff like that.)

Then you can't discourage new players by making more and more stuff - with it being harder to catch up on everything. That is why they make certain older stuff easier to obtain. (Will still be some work to complete the older achievements in detail. But with an early skyscale - a more convenient way to move around - things will be easier.)

For the veteran/hardcore players: It is already evident that the hardcore content is not the main focus. Longer stuff like dungeons and raids seems be dead (= no new releases there). The fractals and strikes are the best they can do. Since they are shorter/faster - that is what most players like. And they can't just to stuff only a minority would get into. (Not worth to develop.)

Of course then they add stuff like "do the CM 100 times" that is grindy ... to keep the people busy. (Otherwise they'd quickly cry for more content again.)

I think the SotO release cycle was good so far. Since the first release offered enough and I still finished certain things up at the small 2nd release. 3rd release probably has the new weapons (not SotO exclusive) as main them - with not much new stuff. Maybe a bit more to do at the last release. And then people have time to finish up their legendary armor until the next expansion gets released.

Replayability imo comes from playing with others - or vs others in the PvP/WvW. (The lack there is a bigger problem. PvP gets even less new stuff than WvW.)
Edit: And as long as they don't insult  the players with stuff like DRMs again ... I think we are fine. 😄 (That was the most annoying stuff when trying to do the story on a 2nd char and you still wanted to complete that chapter at least once. Every DRM to be grinded once again.)

Edited December 12, 2023 by Luthan.5236

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

Look at my hours and I am still constantly playing, without touching Raids, Strikes, or competitive(anymore). That's because the casual experience is on point.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

Everything dies eventually and MMOs are dying a very very slow death. So exepct less vet players and a very slow decline. I more or less quit the game and most friends I have, too.