Concerns about the future of the game for veteran players

[Ashantara.8731]

I see veterans I have known for years leaving the game or only sporadically logging in anymore, while my guild chats have been filling up with new names of new players. I am beginning to see a pattern here:

With...

• the recent Steam release,
• the fact that new legendary armor sets were made SotO-only, so that new players who start with SotO can grind for the QoL convenience,
• some mounts and gliding being made available in an easier way,
• the new in-game shortcuts provided by the Wizard's Vault and the Gem Store,
• the small size of Update 1,
• the increase in no-fun grind achievements,
• the lack of exciting new instanced content (of proper difficulty),

... and some other recent aspects in the development of the game, I am wondering if it is ANet's deliberate intention to attract and only cater to new players now?

Are hardcore players who have been around since release no longer lucrative customers? Or what other reason is there for us to be left without anything fun to do in our favorite MMORPG?
 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[yoni.7015]

9 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Or what other reason is there for us to be left without anything fun to do in our favorite MMORPG?

I have a lot of fun stuff to do in the game. If you dont have fun anymore maybe it is time to take a break or move on.

[Ashantara.8731]

9 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

I have a lot of fun stuff to do in the game. If you dont have fun anymore maybe it is time to take a break or move on.

There are casual veterans and hardcore veterans. There is nothing left to do for the latter.

Edit: I already intend to give Archeage II a go when it releases in 2024 (and am eagerly awaiting Ashes of Creation), but that doesn't change anything about my concerns for GW2. It makes me sad that we are left bored out of our minds with "content" such as the Cosmic Observatory "CM", grinding kills on a map and destroy [x] turrets for "achievements".

Edited December 8, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

44 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I see veterans I have known for years leaving the game or only sporadically logging in anymore, while my guild chats have been filling up with new names of new players. I am beginning to see a pattern here:

With...

• the recent Steam release,
• the fact that new legendary armor sets were made SotO-only, so that new players who start with SotO can grind for the QoL convenience,
• some mounts and gliding being made available in an easier way,
• the new in-game shortcuts provided by the Wizard's Vault and the Gem Store,
• the small size of Update 1,
• the increase in no-fun grind achievements,
• the lack of exciting new instanced content (of proper difficulty),

... and some other recent aspects in the development of the game, I am wondering if it is ANet's deliberate intention to attract and only cater to new players now?

Are hardcore players who have been around since release no longer lucrative customers? Or what other reason is there for us to be left without anything fun to do in our favorite MMORPG?
 

How suprising seeing people complain about OW Legendary and Steam release even thought the players asked for both.

[Pirogen.9561]

Nothing in your post says "ANet hates veterans". I do read a lot of "I'm bored".

You have 2 options:

1. Take a break
2. Change your playstyle. How? Maybe: now Im a raider that does hyper complicated rotation like a pro. Change: I will use my "veteran" knowledge of the game to create a low intensity build that allowes 1-armed player could solo speed run those raids.

My point is: its a game, game is suppose to be fun. So do something fun.

[F Bombs.5071]

42 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I see veterans I have known for years leaving the game or only sporadically logging in anymore, while my guild chats have been filling up with new names of new players. I am beginning to see a pattern here:

With...

• the recent Steam release,
• the fact that new legendary armor sets were made SotO-only, so that new players who start with SotO can grind for the QoL convenience,
• some mounts and gliding being made available in an easier way,
• the new in-game shortcuts provided by the Wizard's Vault and the Gem Store,
• the small size of Update 1,
• the increase in no-fun grind achievements,
• the lack of exciting new instanced content (of proper difficulty),

... and some other recent aspects in the development of the game, I am wondering if it is ANet's deliberate intention to attract and only cater to new players now?

Are hardcore players who have been around since release no longer lucrative customers? Or what other reason is there for us to be left without anything fun to do in our favorite MMORPG?
 

I 100% agree

[Krzysztof.5973]

Hardcore veterans do not bear any significant focus for ANet since last raid wing release, which was over 4 years ago. Either play for the people and the community or just quit.

And a personal advice from me: treat the game is it is, not based on hopes and dreams of what this game could be while your insanity withers away each time ANet lies about alliances or delivers bare minimum content updates. 

[Teknomancer.4895]

58 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

There are casual veterans and hardcore veterans. There is nothing left to do for the latter.

Then bail out for a while, maybe come back when SotO is fully released. Or not.

It's an old game, and if you feel like you've used it up and squeezed all the enjoyment that you can out of it, then move on. 🤷‍♂️

[Albadaran.1283]

Maybe new players spend more money than veterans who already have everything?

Edited December 8, 2023 by Albadaran.1283

[Zzik.5873]

For me the reason I log waaaaaaaay less than before, is how poorly theyve manage my classes(engi) example mechanist is kinda lame compare to eod release (not talking about number, but about mechanic) it use to shoot laser, have animation on rocjet punch, been able to shoot rocket, now none of this work and all its animation bug with quickness... The butchering of the rifle auto attack, they added a cool battlerifle from Halo and now its a weird slowass 2 shot that look and sound weird... The removal of the golem, that one hurt... and the new shortbow look super lame, Im not gonna play with it if it release that awefull... I have nothing to look forward and they actively made thing that was cool, worst for me... I always defended anet but since last years... They disapointed me over and over... Soto map was cool and the story was nice but yeah, all the rest is getting average at best...

[Neferpitouh.4356]

Yeah SotO is purely focused on new players. Most of the veterans already had full set of legendary armors, skyscale, full set of legendary runes/sigils. All the SotO loot/grind being tied to them made the expansion trivial. At the very least I used to do weekly rifts, but now that essence>motivation profits have completely crashed due to new additions, I don't do them anymore either. I haven't engaged in neither the continued story nor the Inner Nayos yet, because I know I won't find anything suitable to my taste on those contents.

New strikes are always welcomed, but tbh I find them kinda boring, easy, and low effort. Despite being easy, huge HP pools make them feel like chores.

Storywise Taimi and Aurene were almost non-existent, so that wasn't interesting either, at least for me. I don't like the new crewmates. I honestly found dealing with enormous dragons fun, this whole new wizards and demons stuff is just not it.

[Gorani.7205]

From my subjective POV and being with the franchise since the launch of GW1, SotO has a pure focus on getting new players into the game, giving them something repetitive to do and making access to top level legacy features (e.g. legendary weapons & armour + the Skyscale as the most useful mount) easy and achievable via repetitive activities.
The veterans (casuals, that like story and developed likes and dislikes of game features over the years - and the hard cores, who are keen on top competitive GvG, sPvP, Raids and SM Fractal) get very little out of SotO. There is the big disconnect.
ANet needs to make money and the promise of new players and fulfilling their needs is just easier to monetize than developing something for the veterans, who are much harder to satisfy because they have a bigger overview of failed/abandoned projects and paths (and though are harder to please and less likely to open their wallet).  

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

2 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I am beginning to see a pattern here

Me too, it's called burn out. Everyone experiences it with any game when they play a game so long it numbs them to the fun lel

[Danikat.8537]

GW2 has always been a very casual friendly game. I suspect hardcore veterans who already have everything from every previous expansion and have no interest in things like new legendaries are (and always have been) a tiny, tiny minority of players so it wouldn't be practical for Anet to try to prioritise them. (Especially since players like that are notoriously difficult for any game to please for long.)

But I also agree with the people saying burn out is a consideration for anyone who plays any game long enough, especially if it's your main or only hobby. GW2 has always been designed to be a game you can take breaks from and pick up again whenever you're ready so if you're bored with it I think that's a good idea.

[Quirin.1076]

Well I am a veteran player and enjoy the game.  I am going to stick around, you do not need to be concerned about this veteran player.   I mean if you see me fall over because I tripped on a rock or my health reached zero, I would not mind a res every once in a while.  I mean a res is free xp and a solid thanks.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Quirin.1076

[TheNurgle.4825]

4 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I see veterans I have known for years leaving the game or only sporadically logging in anymore, while my guild chats have been filling up with new names of new players.

What is wrong with game getting new players? What is wrong on someone playing game for several years to stop playing game?

4 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

• the recent Steam release,
• the fact that new legendary armor sets were made SotO-only, so that new players who start with SotO can grind for the QoL convenience,
• some mounts and gliding being made available in an easier way,
• the new in-game shortcuts provided by the Wizard's Vault and the Gem Store,
• the small size of Update 1,
• the increase in no-fun grind achievements,
• the lack of exciting new instanced content (of proper difficulty),

• Steam release is great for almost any game
• so adding another option to earn legendary armor and getting new skins is bad?
• lets be real getting skyscale or gliding before SOTO was not hard also most MMOs during their lifetime do this, best example is gear treadmill in other MMOs
• you mean ascended chests and leggy starter kit in vault and hero points in gem store? hero points via gem store save like 1-2 hours of playtime, ascended chests are account bound and you can not sell chest or items so what is issue here? leggy starter kit mean that more ppl start crafting leggy items so more profit for trader and more ppl get involved in different contents
• what would you expect for update 1? like everything from update 2 and 3 also included.? This remind me situation with one of my manager, when employee get task from manager it needs to be done in 1 hour, when manager do same task minumum of 100 hours is needed, one of these ppl have no idea how long work actually take
• you have no fun grind achievements in game from core and in every release, you just finally see it
• what is exciting instanced content (of proper difficulty) for you? this is always strange since difficulty of instanced content in MMOs is partly set by game desing, but mostly by players like did you finish CO CM as 5 man or as 5 man without scourges or as 5 man with only off heal or without boons and so on, you have ppl which solo strikes to make it more difficult

4 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Are hardcore players who have been around since release no longer lucrative customers? Or what other reason is there for us to be left without anything fun to do in our favorite MMORPG?

GW2 is casual MMO for casual players you can tell by game design. If you are here from release and as hardcore you see "I have a lot of free time to play game", then you played game over 10 years and who know how many ten of thousands hours. Like what do you expect to do in game after 10 years with tens of thousands hours? I saw ppl playing WoW or FF14 from release till this day mostly from nostalgia like they miss those good old days which in reality was not good at all.

[starlinvf.1358]

1 hour ago, Danikat.8537 said:

GW2 has always been a very casual friendly game. I suspect hardcore veterans who already have everything from every previous expansion and have no interest in things like new legendaries are (and always have been) a tiny, tiny minority of players so it wouldn't be practical for Anet to try to prioritise them. (Especially since players like that are notoriously difficult for any game to please for long.)

But I also agree with the people saying burn out is a consideration for anyone who plays any game long enough, especially if it's your main or only hobby. GW2 has always been designed to be a game you can take breaks from and pick up again whenever you're ready so if you're bored with it I think that's a good idea.

I’ll say this again after so many years, because it bears repeating.   

If you play for the fun of playing, a game will last you forever. If you play achievements and progression, there is a clear upper limit to what you can reach. The latter is a fools game.  Unattainable in principle, and the direct reason so many games became the things we complain about now. 

Over time I’ve switched to titles and genres I can classify as adventure simulators. I ignore progression systems beyond the seeming obligatory tutorial phases, set a simple goal, and let myself get sidetracked in the process. GW2 is usually great for this, as its designed with little things to find along the way.  I collect legendary gear as a hobby; getting 2 - 3 pieces per year. Only twice I went hard on this task, because I needed armor for my ele’s 5 builds for various modes. 

Learn the zen of gaming. It will salvage what remains of your sanity in this insane world. 

[TheQuickFox.3826]

There is more money to be made by attracting the regular and casual gamer then the hardcore gamer. But I think the game needs all the content diversity.

The fact that GW2 has missions like (CM) Raids, HT CM, CM fractals and the Dragon's End meta brings a lot of excitement and room for growth, even to players that may never come there. It is always nice to start on a game knowing it offers the next challenge whenever you are ready for it.

Even when it does not make big money like the Steam release or another expansion story, getting my first raid wing clear was a big achievement for my personal journey and I'm glad that it exists in GW2. HT CM is something I will never master but it is fine that it exists for the players who have the skill and like the challenge.

[DeanBB.4268]

I'm a vet, casual, and not going anywhere. I have taken breaks when needed.

I still spend real money in the gem store, but not as much. I have most everything I need, and new skins, gliders, and mounts don't excite me much, have too many already.

If Anet were to add more QoL items to the store, I'd probably buy them. No, the HP unlock doesn't count. More bank tabs, material storage, and shared slots for sure. 

[BlueJin.4127]

The reason I'm concerned is very different from the OP. I'm concerned because Anet are putting less effort into designing fun and interesting mechanics in metas and are trying to drag things out as long as possible, with as little effort as possible. Recently, too many metas have similar events just copied and pasted to pad game time, and too many bosses are just HP sponges with uninteresting "mechanics," making the game feel repetitive.

HoT metas were clearly designed with a lot of effort. In VB, you have 3 different pre-boss events (defense, escort, and gathering) followed by 5 unique boss fights. Pre-boss events are a bit repetitive (it shouldn't last more than 10~15 minutes, not 25 minutes), but otherwise, it's a well designed meta with unique bosses. In AB, you have 4 different lanes all with different mechanics. TD also has 4 lanes all with different mechanics. DS, all 3 lanes have their own events and there is a lot of variety. HoT metas have a lot of unique mechanics, boss fights, and little repetition (outside VB) that it rarely gets repetitive.

PoF metas aren't as varied as HoT metas (there are less unique mechanics), but you still don't get that repetitive feeling very often. Casino has the same coin event copied and pasted 3 times, which is a drag. Maws of Torment copied and pasted the exact same objectives to all 3 lanes, but at least you don't do the same objective twice in the same lane.

Then starting with EoD, Anet started going overboard with copy and paste to try to pad game time. SP meta has you doing basically the exact same kill the looter event copied and pasted... 3 times? All 3 lanes also have the exact same objectives with no real mechanics. NKC... you basically have "mindlessly AOE trash enemies until the bar fills" up events copied and pasted for like 30 minutes. The events are not completely identical, but there are no real gameplay differences to differentiate them. EW also has multiple "mindlessly AOE trash enemies" events in a row, with little difference between the events. While I only did GD once… the same siege turtle event is copied and pasted 4 times in a row… The last boss, we had to repeat the exact same simple mechanics like 7 times… DE is the only meta that has a lot of unique designs and mechanics. The entire Soo-Won meta (Battle for the Jade Sea) for 40 minutes feels less repetitive than NKC meta for 10 minutes. Doing Soo-Won meta for the nth time feels less repetitive than doing GD once.

With SotO, it doesn't get any better. All 3 tiers of rifts are exactly the same things copied and pasted. SA meta has essence gathering events copied and pasted all over. Once you get on the little islands, again, you do basically nothing but mindlessly AOE trash enemies until the bar fills up with no real mechanics... with all 3 islands having the same... "objectives." AM meta... tentacle rift closing event is copied and pasted to all 6 areas... During the 2nd part, the Nourys platform at the top does have some unique designs, but the 3 lower platforms, again, have the same events copied and pasted... Convergence has the same mindless AOE trash enemies part with almost no mechanics. For players going on the offense, again, you have the same "kill 5 champions and destroy siege weapons" copied and pasted on all 4 areas... IN meta has you doing the same residue collecting event copied and pasted to pad game time, but fortunately, you only do the same event twice and it's quick. The flame carrying event drags on too long. Carrying the flame 5~8 times to the same point gets very repetitive. The boss fight... you have the exact same simple pattern repeated like 10 times. To top it off, throughout SotO, you fight the exact same enemies and champions you already fought over and over and over and over... with barely any new enemies.

No amount of break is going to change my opinion because the problem is the quality of the game, not me burning out. I'm concerned that going forth, we'll get basically nothing but repetitive and lazy copy and paste metas. Anet should focus more on quality of contents and less on padding game time by artificially dragging things out. I'd much rather play a short meta with unique and interesting mechanics (or at least isn't repetitive) than a long meta that has no real mechanics and is just lazily copied and pasted to pad game time.

Edited December 16, 2023 by BlueJin.4127

[Lucius.2140]

47 minutes ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

All

Resume is: this game was never for you, but for the casuals.

Conclusion of it: You stick around for too long in the wrong place xd

- Gw2 has always released some content for more hardcore players, like raids and strikes CM. I have read that the new CM isn't good enough, not sure...

- I suppose the overall problem with SoTo is the quantity it has in general, which comes in the OP post as update 1 size and ofc after years they made shorcuts to some crucial features like a functional well rounded mount (im doing the old collection and is such a PAIN). The later is born to generate some upset but is a necesity to mantain the game accesable to new players.

- Also i do see that horizontal progression had a cornerstone in elite specs, the weapons aren't close to that and there hasn't been any replace (except your skyscale launching fireballs xd).

[fable spirt.8465]

I left the game with the release of LW1 and the game becoming free to play. I later came back during Icebrood saga and have been back ever since. Some will leave and some will return as things change. I have seen something come out later and regrated not waiting but am old enough to know that such is life. It's an 11 year old game and there has to be some way for others to catch up. Sometimes the changes have lined up in my favor.

[TheNurgle.4825]

42 minutes ago, Lucius.2140 said:

- I suppose the overall problem with SoTo is the quantity it has in general, which comes in the OP post as update 1 size

Whole expansion is split to 4 different updates so for 25 euros you get a lot content with SOTO over the one year. Issue is that a lot ppl can not wrap their mind around this. Seems a lot similar as top/mid management mindset about quarterly gains and not carring about future.

[TheNurgle.4825]

57 minutes ago, Lucius.2140 said:

- Gw2 has always released some content for more hardcore players, like raids and strikes CM. I have read that the new CM isn't good enough, not sure...

Was it really hardcore? I played a lot MMOs over years and GW2 hardcore is mid difficulty at best in some other MMOs. Like how many hard dps checks is in the game and I mean real dps checks where you need to have top dps classes and you can not mess up.

[Darklord Roy.2514]

6 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I see veterans I have known for years leaving the game or only sporadically logging in anymore

This has been the case for many years, and is an ailment of the MMO genre in general. Long time players of every MMO ever will go through regular periods of taking a break for extended periods, either due to content droughts or finding a newer game to play, or various other factors. It is not a specific GW2 issue, nor is it even a *new* GW2 issue. Older players will always come and go, and there's nothing Anet or any other company can do to prevent that. It is human nature.

6 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

while my guild chats have been filling up with new names of new players

This is not a negative thing. It has been proven time and time again by countless other games that MMOs *cannot* thrive without attracting and catering to new players. It is their lifeblood. Since we already established that older players have a tendency to take more breaks, if an MMO is not attracting new players, that's a worrying sign that it's turning into a dead game. There are innumerable examples of this throughout the past 20 years.

6 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

• the recent Steam release,
• the fact that new legendary armor sets were made SotO-only, so that new players who start with SotO can grind for the QoL convenience,
• some mounts and gliding being made available in an easier way,

Again, I fail to see anything negative about any of these points. The Steam release brought a wave of new players to support the game. The OW legendary armor has been asked for by players for *years* and is a *more tedious* grind than any other legendary armor currently available, even the massively timegated WvW armor which is *already available to new players without SoTo.* Gliding was never difficult to get in the first place, and the original Skyscale acquisition achievement is already 900x easier and faster than it was when it came out. The rest of your bullet points I can at least somewhat understand as being pain points for some people (though not me personally), but why should I care about any of these things listed above as a veteran player when they do not affect MY gameplay?

6 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Are hardcore players who have been around since release no longer lucrative customers?

You seem to be under the assumption that "veteran" and "hardcore" mean the same thing. They don't. "Hardcore" players have gotten a pretty short end of the stick this release, I'll agree. They have HT CM as the last difficult content drop, and before that it was the final raid wing years ago. But then, "hardcore" players don't really care about new players joining the game and getting mounts easier than them. They care about *their* content drought.

There are significantly more casual veterans than hardcore veterans in this game. People like me, who have played for 10 years and don't really care about messing with raids or CMs except in a lighthearted way. I still feel perfectly happy playing this game doing the things I WANT to do, rather than trying to find all the things to complain about with what OTHER people are doing.

If you've run out of stuff that you enjoy, take a break. I and many others have numerous times. It will make you feel better about what the game actually has instead of worrying about what it doesn't.