Revenant Staff discussion: What direction would you push it into?

[Yasai.3549]

Would like another Revenant staff topic because I feel that despite the new toys every Spec is allowed access to now with SOTO, staff still feels like it could use some love, especially with a new support weapon soon joining our lineup along with an improved Shield (trust me I'm stifling a chuckle mentioning shield) 

Which direction would you encourage staff to improve? 

Defensive, supportive and utility focused?

Combat focused but more on the defensive side? 
And as an addon for Combat focus: Power or Condition? 

To kick it off, I think it'd be nice to have some clunk for Staff ironed out first: 

Staff 2 Mender's Rebuke still has a very inconsistent hit registration when casting it while moving. 

Staff 5 SotM is honestly the most clunkiest of clunk and the pause they introduced should be removed in all honesty. 

I would like to see Staff be brought more toward a Defensive Utility weapon with an improved version of its current kit. I feel like the one thing it should focus on is the application of Weakness via skills 2 and skill 5, and having skill 2 be made an AoE cleave skill instead of the current "I pound infront of me small AoE". Weakness can also be introduced into its AA Chain into chain 2. Skill 4 could be made to heal more for each Condition removed. 

[arazoth.7290]

Staff could indeed get an update indeed and a few things that are in line with centaur => regeneration that's mostly missing on core. So i have myself also few suggestion that could inspire maybe.

•auto attack: applies regen boons too ontop of already done healing.

•staff skill 2: healing increase and larger radius like 360 radius. A baseline 3 second regen boon/hit it increases by 1 second extra. Combo blast finisher also.

It feels from times really cluncky to get it off or heal allies with it even who are running

•Staff skill 3 block: The more attacks you block, the more debilitating effects you give enemies.

•Staff skill 4 cleanse: Instead of 2 condis cleansed and healing => 3 condis converted to boons and healing stays same.

•Staff skill 5 evade: Few option summed up they could go with. One of the 2 options for staff, not both that would be OP.

•The more targets you knock back, the more defensive/supportive boons you apply to all in a 360 radius ==> regeneration, resistance, resolution, protection ( duration depends content ).

OR

• When you move forward with knockback, you apply a water combo field over the line you move, which stays for 4 second.

This water mist line also can't be passed by enemies for 4 seconds.

(For imagination, the water field looks simular in shape to mace 2 fire field but then now a water mist field.)

The ones I would personally like to see most on staff I suggested are ; auto attack change, skill 2 change and staff skill 5 2nd option I suggested.

Obviously I would love to see them all, but idk if it might be too much to ask. So that's why I put these 3 changes I would like to see most on top of my list.

[ArthurDent.9538]

I really miss damage on SotM. It was such a cool and fairly unique mechanic where the number of hits and thus the amount of damage you dealt scaled with how perfectly you aimed it. Now there is barely any incentive to even to to land it as it is both extremely clunky and difficult to land as well as the cc is such a short duration that there isn't much time to land any follow up damage (which staff doesn't even have any of its own). So now it's basically an extra evade with a tiny amount of extra mobility which leaves it almost completely devoid of the skill expression it used to have.

[Buran.3796]

 Hard to care about it after all the nerfs. What is staff for?

* In PvE,  you swap to staff to do two things: one is to deal massive defiance bar cc (150x9,) albeit with the root+ cast time is hard to land in foes with mobility or invuln phases; the second  is to tank your dps. 

* In PvP/WvW is a shadow of what it was; the blind from Warding Rift used to be functional, the block was nerfed in duration and at WvW/PvP is maybe the only skill #3 in a two handed weapon which has longer cooldown than the #4. Warding Rift also doesn't work that well because aside of the lame damage,  after the i-frames that root you, in the middle of the animation you have no stab, so a simple line of ward or well with fear will interrupt you, am I wrong? Meanwhile a Harbinger enters in Shroud, gains stability and cast Dark Barrage to corrupt you boons and deal massive damage at 900 range... Why you want a staff, to block unblockable wells?

   Compare it to the greatsword: much better damage, much better mobility, a longer block (which sadly was nerfed as counter starike) and a large AoE damage burst which forces foes to either endure the pain or spent defensive skills avoiding it. Should be tha same weapons as the greatsword? No, but staff was functional, and if deserved nerfs, were mostly in numbers (damage, cooldowns or energy costs) not in mechanics.

   So what should they do? Since they won't revert the mechanical changes, I just don't care about what they would do for support builds/roleplayers. I'm alreday used to not wield it in PvP/WvW/PvE and is a great feeling, like being carrying a boulder for long time, and being suddenly free.

[Yasai.3549]

27 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

 Hard to care about it after all the nerfs. What is staff for?

* In PvE,  you swap to staff to do two things: one is to deal massive defiance bar cc (150x9,) albeit with the root+ cast time is hard to land in foes with mobility or invuln phases; the second  is to tank your dps. 

* In PvP/WvW is a shadow of what it was; the blind from Warding Rift used to be functional, the block was nerfed in duration and at WvW/PvP is maybe the only skill #3 in a two handed weapon which has longer cooldown than the #4. Warding Rift also doesn't work that well because aside of the lame damage,  after the i-frames that root you, in the middle of the animation you have no stab, so a simple line of ward or well with fear will interrupt you, am I wrong? Meanwhile a Harbinger enters in Shroud, gains stability and cast Dark Barrage to corrupt you boons and deal massive damage at 900 range... Why you want a staff, to block unblockable wells?

   Compare it to the greatsword: much better damage, much better mobility, a longer block (which sadly was nerfed as counter starike) and a large AoE damage burst which forces foes to either endure the pain or spent defensive skills avoiding it. Should be tha same weapons as the greatsword? No, but staff was functional, and if deserved nerfs, were mostly in numbers (damage, cooldowns or energy costs) not in mechanics.

   So what should they do? Since they won't revert the mechanical changes, I just don't care about what they would do for support builds/roleplayers. I'm alreday used to not wield it in PvP/WvW/PvE and is a great feeling, like being carrying a boulder for long time, and being suddenly free.

The only point of Staff is the Block cancelling into Evade and Condi Cleanse these days.

 

If there were a better condi cleansing option, staff would be yeeted out the window with disgust. Revenants are just so starved to Condi Cleanse that they need to lean on Staff ever so often it's honestly a little sad to think about. 

 

[Shagie.7612]

I think it was really weird to both give it the windup and entirely remove the damage in the same patch.
One or the other I understand, since when it did both it was kinda op. I dunno if it would be these days but oh well.

SotO brought a ridiculous amount of extra condi application, so staff 4's removal isn't nearly as strong as it used to be.

I find the skills like Warding Rift, Lightning Reflexes, etc, that have a tiny meaningless bit of damage on them to be really frustrating as defensive skills when shocking aura is so much more common now.

[Yasai.3549]

On 12/12/2023 at 12:27 PM, Shagie.7612 said:

I think it was really weird to both give it the windup and entirely remove the damage in the same patch.

Yes this. If the point was the unreactable damage, then the windup made no sense. If the point was the instant CC, then removing damage made no sense. Doing both is doubly harsh on a skill with such a long cooldown. (Like since when is 20s excusable as a "short cooldown Revenant skill it's OP" anymore) Another classic case of Anet overnerfing and not compensating. 

I think the very least Anet can do to help staff is make Mender's Rebuke (Skill 2) an AoE Cleave that leaves a Light Field. Then you can blast it with Skill 4 for additional Condi Cleanse.

Additionally, revert 1 portion of the double nerf to SotM: Either remove delay or restore damage in competitive. I'm more partial to removing delay because it hurts PvE as well. 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[arazoth.7290]

On 12/11/2023 at 2:00 PM, arazoth.7290 said:

Staff could indeed get an update indeed and a few things that are in line with centaur => regeneration that's mostly missing on core. So i have myself also few suggestion that could inspire maybe.

•auto attack: applies regen boons too ontop of already done healing.

•staff skill 2: healing increase and larger radius like 360 radius. A baseline 3 second regen boon/hit it increases by 1 second extra. Combo blast finisher also.

It feels from times really cluncky to get it off or heal allies with it even who are running

•Staff skill 3 block: The more attacks you block, the more debilitating effects you give enemies.

•Staff skill 4 cleanse: Instead of 2 condis cleansed and healing => 3 condis converted to boons and healing stays same.

•Staff skill 5 evade: Few option summed up they could go with. One of the 2 options for staff, not both that would be OP.

•The more targets you knock back, the more defensive/supportive boons you apply to all in a 360 radius ==> regeneration, resistance, resolution, protection ( duration depends content ).

OR

• When you move forward with knockback, you apply a water combo field over the line you move, which stays for 4 second.

This water mist line also can't be passed by enemies for 4 seconds.

(For imagination, the water field looks simular in shape to mace 2 fire field but then now a water mist field.)

The ones I would personally like to see most on staff I suggested are ; auto attack change, skill 2 change and staff skill 5 2nd option I suggested.

Obviously I would love to see them all, but idk if it might be too much to ask. So that's why I put these 3 changes I would like to see most on top of my list.

Or just give it an overall small rework..

[Phyb.6704]

On 12/11/2023 at 2:59 PM, Buran.3796 said:

 Hard to care about it after all the nerfs. What is staff for?

* In PvE,  you swap to staff to do two things: one is to deal massive defiance bar cc (150x9,) albeit with the root+ cast time is hard to land in foes with mobility or invuln phases; the second  is to tank your dps. 

* In PvP/WvW is a shadow of what it was; the blind from Warding Rift used to be functional, the block was nerfed in duration and at WvW/PvP is maybe the only skill #3 in a two handed weapon which has longer cooldown than the #4. Warding Rift also doesn't work that well because aside of the lame damage,  after the i-frames that root you, in the middle of the animation you have no stab, so a simple line of ward or well with fear will interrupt you, am I wrong? Meanwhile a Harbinger enters in Shroud, gains stability and cast Dark Barrage to corrupt you boons and deal massive damage at 900 range... Why you want a staff, to block unblockable wells?

   Compare it to the greatsword: much better damage, much better mobility, a longer block (which sadly was nerfed as counter starike) and a large AoE damage burst which forces foes to either endure the pain or spent defensive skills avoiding it. Should be tha same weapons as the greatsword? No, but staff was functional, and if deserved nerfs, were mostly in numbers (damage, cooldowns or energy costs) not in mechanics.

   So what should they do? Since they won't revert the mechanical changes, I just don't care about what they would do for support builds/roleplayers. I'm alreday used to not wield it in PvP/WvW/PvE and is a great feeling, like being carrying a boulder for long time, and being suddenly free.

Staff is also a spamable condi clense if you just spam 1 in ventari dome. It is a finisher combo field for clensing bolts. Its actually quite handly but before I would go crazy with that I would rather just have a scourge or druid spam barrier / heals. Staff has good stuff but just needs the healing increased. Would be nice to see staff + scepter / shield to support with barrier, heals, condi clense, ect. The problem is if you have a rev your basically having them go quickness herald if you want support. The heal, clense and barrier needs to be stronger if you're going to bother with it over a scourge or druid. 

[arazoth.7290]

On 12/11/2023 at 2:00 PM, arazoth.7290 said:

Staff could indeed get an update indeed and a few things that are in line with centaur => regeneration that's mostly missing on core. So i have myself also few suggestion that could inspire maybe.

•auto attack: applies regen boons too ontop of already done healing.

•staff skill 2: healing increase and larger radius like 360 radius. A baseline 3 second regen boon/hit it increases by 1 second extra. Combo blast finisher also.

It feels from times really cluncky to get it off or heal allies with it even who are running

•Staff skill 3 block: The more attacks you block, the more debilitating effects you give enemies.

•Staff skill 4 cleanse: Instead of 2 condis cleansed and healing => 3 condis converted to boons and healing stays same.

•Staff skill 5 evade: Few option summed up they could go with. One of the 2 options for staff, not both that would be OP.

•The more targets you knock back, the more defensive/supportive boons you apply to all in a 360 radius ==> regeneration, resistance, resolution, protection ( duration depends content ).

OR

• When you move forward with knockback, you apply a water combo field over the line you move, which stays for 4 second.

This water mist line also can't be passed by enemies for 4 seconds.

(For imagination, the water field looks simular in shape to mace 2 fire field but then now a water mist field.)

The ones I would personally like to see most on staff I suggested are ; auto attack change, skill 2 change and staff skill 5 2nd option I suggested.

Obviously I would love to see them all, but idk if it might be too much to ask. So that's why I put these 3 changes I would like to see most on top of my list.

Well basicly this would make it more competitive in toolkit/uniqueness in comparison to scepter/shield.

Scepter gives enough good barrier in its toolkit, combined with overall passive healing + shield toolkit aegis, healing and with herald even cleanses. I just don't want to sit with scepter/shield as primary weapons and staff only in rare situations... . Both need to have enough impact if you switch, same way you switch weapons for damage which hold enough impact.

Giving some uniqueness go staff and competitive same time more like this would help. Thank you for reading.

This change of staff in mind is for pve, WvW and pvp. So not only limited to make it better for only pve. I think it is obvious, but writing it in case if someone is confused.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

Yeah the delay on skill 5 is just awful, it needs to be removed in all game modes.

[Angesombre.4630]

They already don't fix bugs, so for improvements, we have time. On the other hand, the nerves are going to arrive very quickly.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Angesombre.4630

[phokus.8934]

Staff 5 needs to have its windup removed, however, CMC said on a stream that would never happen.

[Aeolus.3615]

3 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

Staff 5 needs to have its windup removed, however, CMC said on a stream that would never happen.

how about?

- Increase 1 extra sec the evade and the travel distance of Surge of the Mist (staff5 skill)? It is a low damage CC skill/evasion anyway i believe would not be that broken if SotM had a total 2 sec evade.

- Remove the ICD from words of censure trait so it can be used as a combo with Surge of the Mist.

Ive found using this trait very hard to be effective even when using staff 5 to push trough, altough most times staff 5 is getting interrupted at the initial dash fase its like hit against a wall :D, i belive that the evade only happens at the windup and the dash wont use the evade?

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[Phyb.6704]

Leave 5. It is quite overpowered in pve for bar break. If you use staff 5 + renegade daze summon + dwarf chains or shiro elite + a elite to trigger citidel relic....... The actual amount of break bar you get can not be matched. They would need to weaken the bar break a lot in pve to quicken the animation wind up. Rev can just stack soooo much to drop break bars. 

Leave 1. It being a whirl finisher actually makes it very good in pve for ventari light field condi clense. You can just spam out clensing bolts and block ranged. Others using whirl finishers like warriors "spin to win" spam clenses everyone. 
Staff is quite good in pve its just that many do not run ventari too much in pve enviroments. Its generally q/herald or alac/renegade. 

The ventari dome can trigger herald quickness so you should be able to ventari quickness support with heals and condi clensing bolt spam. Then have staff 5 for bar break. What makes this rarely used is because the healing is not actually very strong so you would then depend on vindi dodge spam. This also works however the healing and barrier from said dodge spam does not compete with scourge barrier alac builds. Also having to constantly move the tablet to keep quickness going if you go herald.... is anoying. 

Staff 2 should give a water field. This would let healing rev spam condi bolts and water bolts with staff 1. This would...

Edit: OR put water field on the ventari tablet so you can healing bolt spam with staff. 

1. Ventari/herald quickness or alac renegade with high bar break and lifesteal "totem"

2. Clensing bolt spam by all in group. No upkeep burn.

3. Healing bolt spam by all in group. No upkeep burn.

You have the ability to breach the ranged problem. scepter sword gives you sword 5 to teleport in. You can also vindi dodge spam well you chase. 

The issue is most content wants a hybrid support with quickness or alac. This means going full heal vindi is just not going to get used as much. You will be asked to alac or quickness.

I would not change much about staff other then adding more combo fields so staff 1 becomes more effective. 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by ohericoseo.4316

[Yasai.3549]

2 hours ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

Leave 5. It is quite overpowered in pve for bar break. If you use staff 5 + renegade daze summon + dwarf chains or shiro elite + a elite to trigger citidel relic....... The actual amount of break bar you get can not be matched. They would need to weaken the bar break a lot in pve to quicken the animation wind up. Rev can just stack soooo much to drop break bars. 

Hence why it's nerfed in damage in PvE before. Why do you think everyone here is discussing removing its delay.

With damage nerfed already in both competitive and PvE, the delay is just doubly harsh no matter how you slice it. That's why people either want damage reverted or delay removed. 

[Aeolus.3615]

@ohericoseo.4316 talk about how OP staff 5 is in pve and make a complete super OP carry me dady requests... right.... xD

The only changes i can see towards staff are small QOL updates  or small buffs :/

Edited December 18, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[Phyb.6704]

On 12/17/2023 at 3:23 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

Hence why it's nerfed in damage in PvE before. Why do you think everyone here is discussing removing its delay.

With damage nerfed already in both competitive and PvE, the delay is just doubly harsh no matter how you slice it. That's why people either want damage reverted or delay removed. 

Skill 5 could honestly have no delay in pvp / wvw since the delay makes it near impossible to actually use with any confidence. I could see a pvp/wvw skill adjustment.

However in pve it is just for break bar. 
Remember this is a healing weapon. The priority goes to healing and cc. If you want power damage use greatsword or 1h swords. It makes zero sense to prioritize damage over healing / cc / support on a healing focused weapon. The delay is not honestly a huge bother in pve since using staff = dps is not the priority. You would for example use greatsword / 1h swords for power dps..... 

The only real problem is that the delay though anoying does not stop you from hitting your target in pve. It is doable. In pvp/wvw.... good luck. It is more a game mode specific adjustment.

 

[Buran.3796]

On 12/17/2023 at 12:54 PM, phokus.8934 said:

Staff 5 needs to have its windup removed, however, CMC said on a stream that would never happen.

  Ha. Since the SotO's Weapon Masteries (or mid September in my case), I haven't touched staff again.

[Phyb.6704]

25 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Ha. Since the SotO's Weapon Masteries (or mid September in my case), I haven't touched staff again.

It is generally a situation of a group not having enough bar break so I use it for the 5 skill. 

The ventari staff combo for clesning bolts is just perma bugged. They have zero intention to fix ventari dome. The skills stops working and dome goes down after it times out but keeps taking upkeep until you turn it off yourself. This is just beyond dumb and not something I want to deal with. The healing spells are weak and have way way to small of a radius. They should match the staff healing spell radius with scourge shades radius. 
Before I would use the staff for anything beyond skill 5 for a bar break.... I would swap to a scourge and spam barrier with condi clense. The ONLY decent skill is 5. 

[Logos.3042]

If it came with an inherent 5sec weapon swap itd be fine!

[Aeolus.3615]

20 hours ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

It is generally a situation of a group not having enough bar break so I use it for the 5 skill. 

The ventari staff combo for clesning bolts is just perma bugged. They have zero intention to fix ventari dome. The skills stops working and dome goes down after it times out but keeps taking upkeep until you turn it off yourself. This is just beyond dumb and not something I want to deal with. The healing spells are weak and have way way to small of a radius. They should match the staff healing spell radius with scourge shades radius. 
Before I would use the staff for anything beyond skill 5 for a bar break.... I would swap to a scourge and spam barrier with condi clense. The ONLY decent skill is 5. 

I do that once in a while extremely rare since most time it is not voluntary (ive talked about it long time ago but no one cared lol)... if i am trying to delay damage on lord and i need to run away sometimes i just dont care and move out of tether range and dome will  probably stay if dome was open dispite caster skills show tablet colapsed due max thther range reached, it will end if caster uses any tablet action out of the tether range.

Note that tablet casting is 900 range  but the theter its 1500 range, a good fix would be to force  colapse of the dome itself in 1st place when ventari looses tether distance, seams a simple fix, other solution would be cause exaustion (check gw1 exaustion mechanic) on energy bar of the rev by alot! forcing anythign related to tablet out of thether range to terminate when tether reach its maximun +1 (1501 distance) while changing tablet could work after that range, exaustion on revenat energy  would start to ramp up.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[Phyb.6704]

How about we start with making a healing weapon heal us for more then the now nerfed battle scars that heals for 1/3 of what it used to. Battle scars was great pre nerf. Staff can not even keep up with nerfed battle scars. If you can not even heal enough to sustain yourself then what is it worth in a group situation. Why would we invest heavily into healing power. 

[Shagie.7612]

Specifically for PvP, I don't think staff is doing a great job anymore of stalling for CDs and acting as a supporting weapon, which is why you're seeing people drop it for GS S/S on common PvP builds (ie Vindicator)

Better to try and end the fight faster with two sets of weapon cooldowns than go in, burst, and then attempt to stall until your next set of cooldowns come up on your dps weapon.

I don't know the solution exactly, I'm not sure just straight up buffing numbers would work well, and I think both scepter and staff will eventually crowd on each other's spot in non-support builds in pvp, but since switching to to GS most matches feel a lot better.

[otto.5684]

PvP, it needs some of the nerfs undone.

PvE, it could use a bit more damage on AA and skill 2. But it is primarily a support weapon (heal and CC) and it is does okay.