Ranger hate

[Sansar.1302]

Why do the devs and none ranger players hate ranger in spvp and wvw ?

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I've seen literally every profession subforum say this at some point, think there's some cognitive dissonance going on. 

[Beddo.1907]

The Ranger's primal urge to make oneshot builds.

[Yasai.3549]

Hate is a strong work. I prefer the term "Ranger dislike"

[Fueki.4753]

One of the reasons is the Longbow pew pew from over 1800 range away, despite the weapon only having 1500 range on the tooltip.

[Zyreva.1078]

I don't think they hate ranger - or any other class. They are quiteclueless tho - about pets in particular. And their latest patch is a wonderful example of anet's ignorance.

[Sansar.1302]

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

I don't think they hate ranger - or any other class. They are quiteclueless tho - about pets in particular. And their latest patch is a wonderful example of anet's ignorance.

Made this post in affection trying to get any pet to prefom as good as prenerf smokescale with soulbeast.

Maby you are rigth and they are clueless

[ShadowKatt.6740]

It's a case of They hate you 'cause they ain't you. Literally.

One of the things was mentioned already and that's the Longbow. One of only TWO weapons in the game with a 1500 range, the other being the Deadeye rifle and even then ONLY if the thief is kneeling and thus mostly immobile. In a game where everyone is looking for that leg up on everyone else, being able to hit people and them being absolutely incapable of hitting you back is going to generate a lot of hate.

Then there's pets. Now pets aren't the biggest threat but it means that every ranger fight is automaticly a 2v1. And that's not fair, and so people complain. In addition, rangers are hard to put down. Downing a ranger is one thing, but Rangers came with Rescue Protocol BEFORE it was cool, they just called it Lick Wounds. So even IF you manage to down a ranger, well, they can Rescue Protocol themselves back up. And if you down them AGAIN, they can Lick Wounds. So you have to down them a THIRD time and then hope they stay down. It's not a fair fight with a ranger, and if it's not fair, people are going to complain.

But the key isn't getting mad, it's learning to counter. Rangers can outrange you, but if you can block, stealth, distort, or otherwise not be hit then there you are. And from what I understand CC tends to stop Lick Wounds, so make sure you're carrying some. OR, just go play something else like I do.

[Beddo.1907]

14 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Downing a ranger is one thing, but Rangers came with Rescue Protocol BEFORE it was cool, they just called it Lick Wounds. So even IF you manage to down a ranger, well, they can Rescue Protocol themselves back up. And if you down them AGAIN, they can Lick Wounds. So you have to down them a THIRD time and then hope they stay down.

Or just... use the finisher?

[Justine.6351]

13 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

The Ranger's primal urge to make oneshot builds.

From 2k range. If you push them they run away to a tower if they aren't already in a tower. Otherwise they just burn you in a fight that is already safe for themselves. If you catch them alone in open field and get on top of them they just die proving they are only as good as their ability to kitten on you safely from 2k range is.

[Beddo.1907]

3 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

From 2k range. If you push them they run away to a tower if they aren't already in a tower. Otherwise they just burn you in a fight that is already safe for themselves. If you catch them alone in open field and get on top of them they just die proving they are only as good as their ability to kitten on you safely from 2k range is.

I understand that that 1500 on longbow gets bonus range with angle and ppl don't like it, but you've overkilled it with the 2k.
Other than that, close enough I guess.

[Justine.6351]

59 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

I understand that that 1500 on longbow gets bonus range with angle and ppl don't like it, but you've overkilled it with the 2k.
Other than that, close enough I guess.

its over 2k.

[Mell.4873]

Everyone class has strengths and weaknesses . The thing I love about Ranger is almost everything does damage regardless of what you are doing. 

For example cleansing conditions with Wilderness Knowledge equals doing more damage. Untamed in particular is perfectly exemplified with this since each Ambush heals you and deals damage. 

Most other classes have some down time, even something like Thief has to stealth and get ready for another backstab but not Ranger.

One of the main complaints about Ranger is that is has very few defensive options. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Beddo.1907]

1 hour ago, Justine.6351 said:

its over 2k.

It's not and I have no idea where you got that information.

[Justine.6351]

1 hour ago, Beddo.1907 said:

It's not and I have no idea where you got that information.

Because I tested it like 8 years ago cause people were arguing over longbows range.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 12/11/2023 at 3:28 PM, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Then there's pets. Now pets aren't the biggest threat but it means that every ranger fight is automaticly a 2v1.

You see clone spam lately?

https://imgur.com/a/CdyXDhD

On 12/11/2023 at 3:28 PM, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

In addition, rangers are hard to put down. Downing a ranger is one thing, but Rangers came with Rescue Protocol BEFORE it was cool, they just called it Lick Wounds. So even IF you manage to down a ranger, well, they can Rescue Protocol themselves back up. And if you down them AGAIN, they can Lick Wounds. So you have to down them a THIRD time and then hope they stay down. It's not a fair fight with a ranger, and if it's not fair, people are going to complain.

Lick Wounds isn't A.E.D or Vengeance lmao.  You don't just 'get back up' when you use it...you even mention the literal counter to it:

On 12/11/2023 at 3:28 PM, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

And from what I understand CC tends to stop Lick Wounds, so make sure you're carrying some.

Now, what's my counter to a bunker mesmer with 8 clones, Akeem, more condi than a radiation zone, and enough invuln / distort to outlast half a PvP match?

As to topic question---bit of column A and B, not so much 'hate' as inability to balance.  They balance ranger around random internal playstyles...first it was burst, now it's bunker.  Problem is neither method works with the pet--the burst you merge, and the bunker you just use pet as CC and hope you aren't near stairs, gaps, or something it has to path to your enemy across.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

You see clone spam lately?

Have I seen clone spam lately? I'm a MESMER! I AM THE CLONE SPAM!

Actually it's funny how you try to make me look stupid...and then you write something like this:

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Now, what's my counter to a bunker mesmer with 8 clones, Akeem, more condi than a radiation zone, and enough invuln / distort to outlast half a PvP match?

Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of how Mesmers work knows you can only have 3 clones out at any time. Any more clones generated replace the oldest. So while it would be AWESOME to have 8 clones out, if you see eight mesmers, you're fighting two players (That's two mesmers and 3 clones each). Then there's the Invuln/Distort. Distortion is pretty awesome, it's basically the same as Aegis since it's guaranteed to nullify anything you throw at it during that window. UNFORTUNATELY for us mesmers, there are only...what was it the last time I counted...three? skills that give Distortion, and they're pretty much all Shatter 4, which means that you couldn't carry them all if you wanted to. Sword 2 has Blur, which is basically the same thing but doesn't benefit from traits, and Mirage Cloak, which is the main mechanic of Mirages obviously, is also separate from Distortion and benefits from its own line of traits. So there's not as much as you think, but if you put all those together, a Mirage with a sword and decent clone generation......yeah, they could keep themselves invulnerable for a while.

NOW, as for how you beat it. Well, if a mesmer just wanted to be invulnerable as long as possible they could do it for a while with a dedicated build, but then they wouldn't have the same damage output, so there's less for you to worry about. And a really good Condi build isn't going to have the same period of invulnerability, so half your problem is gone right out the gate. As for the other half, How to Kill a Mesmer, well, that's actually pretty easy. Mesmers are soft targets. We survive by not being hit. We have Distortion, Teleports, Decoys, and Invisibility all to keep ourselves from being hit. And all of that runs out eventually. Clones don't do damage, so the only thing you need to worry about with them is conditions and even then only if it's a condition weapon in the first place. So your next task is to find the mesmer among their clones. That's not hard since the mesmer will often out themselves by acting differently. A Chaos Aura will do it, or just backing up. Clones never back up. Find the mesmer and most of your problem is gone already. AOEs are good for that too, since the mesmer now has the choice of stay and remain hidden, or dodge and reveal. And just keep hitting them. Most mesmers cannot survive a stand-up fight. We don't want a stand-up fight, so charge, chase, pin, and murder. CATCHING a mesmer is the hard part. Killing it is not.

Now I'll be honest, I wasn't familiar with a Bunker Mesmer when you responded. It seems to be exclusively a PvP thing, and I don't PvP. But in my looking I found this, and quoting directly from it: "A PvP Chronobunker build made to stall smaller skirmishes or set up kills in team fights through CC chains." So it's not even something that's really a threat to anyone. All it's there to do is to set you up for everyone ELSE to deal with...but if you catch it alone, well, bad day for that mesmer.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Thanks for the mes explanation--with generation those 3 clones per mesmer sure feel like 8 as they come back almost as fast as they shatter.  The two mesmers in my picture in WvW were essentially immortal for all the reasons you list, and there is no catching them in WvW...so the only way to actually kill them was to outnumber and try to chain CC while fighting the targeting system.  

I mean the inevitable conclusion was leave them to flip camps and re-flip...but that's kind of the entire point here of why WvW mes is an issue, as you should be able to actually contest and win.  

From your breakdown of Lick Wounds I thought you played competitive as why would it ever be a problem in PvE; unless by:

42 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Now I'll be honest, I wasn't familiar with a Bunker Mesmer when you responded. It seems to be exclusively a PvP thing, and I don't PvP

You mean sPvP then it makes more sense if you play WvW and are having trouble with Lick Wounds.  

If that's the case, Lick Wounds can yes be CC'd or you can simply outdamage it with almost any build that isn't support/bunker.  For those, you just need to pop stability and use a stomp.  But since you are a mesmer, stealth stomping is an option as plenty of that to go around.  

[ShadowKatt.6740]

Actually I don't WvW. Or PvP....or sPvP. I'm a sore loser and I hate losing, so I just sidestep the whole thing. HOWEVER, I do try to make a point of at least knowing how everything works, even if I'm not an expert in any of it (I'm not even the smartest mesmer in the game), but I have one of each profession, I've unlocked everything on all professions, and I try to understand how each profession works and what they do. Still trying to understand what it is that Guardians do though....

7 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Thanks for the mes explanation--with generation those 3 clones per mesmer sure feel like 8 as they come back almost as fast as they shatter.  The two mesmers in my picture in WvW were essentially immortal for all the reasons you list, and there is no catching them in WvW...so the only way to actually kill them was to outnumber and try to chain CC while fighting the targeting system.

Okay, I know where you're coming from here. Now, first off, don't feel overwhelmed. That's just what the mesmer WANTS you to feel, but I promise you that we can only have three clones at any given time. But just like Initiative is the primary resource for Thieves and they have lots of ways to get it, so too do Mesmers have access to a lot of clone generation. The goal is that we want to have as many clones out as we can as long as we can so you will almost always find yourself in a situation where there are always 3 clones out. Shatter builds want them to shatter, and condi builds want them for both decoy and condi application, but there's still only three clones. However as I explained, and you admitted, the hardest part is CATCHING a mesmer. CC, AoEs, all good stuff, but the best way to catch a mesmer is just pressure. Make them burn up all their clones, all their blinks, all their invisibility, and strike while everything is on cooldown....come to think of it that works for pretty much any profession, but for mesmers it's pretty much a requirement because you can't hurt them until you pin them down.

7 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

From your breakdown of Lick Wounds I thought you played competitive as why would it ever be a problem in PvE; unless by:

Okay so here's the deal. I actually almost exclusively play PvE. I dabble in WvW from time to time, either when I'm feeling masochistic or I need something like a Gift of Battle, but other than that just PvE. I don't even Raid or Strike. But that doesn't stop me from understanding how these things affect the PvP arena. Rangers are survivalists, which is one of the things that makes them one of the easiest professions to play. They have the longest range in the game letting them do damage without being threatened. Their pets allow them to take fights that might be too difficult for other professions, and even when downed they get back up again. Lick Wounds is one of the most effective Downed Skills in the game and it means that unless there is something to put the ranger down for good, that ranger is getting back up. Someone above mentioned that's what finishers are for and even you mentioned popping stability, invisibility, and them stomping them, but that's not what I'm talking about. In my experience, which is mostly WvW, finishers are a bit of a luxary in that half the time people won't bother at all and just overdamage them to kill them, or you can finish someone that wasn't going to get up anyway. I think where Rangers stand out is that you NEED that finisher on them, because a ranger WILL get up if you don't unless you stop that pet of theirs before it can heal them. So if the mesmer is hard to fight because they're hard to catch, the ranger is hard to fight because they keep coming back. No, it's not the same as Vengence where they just pop out of the ground, but even Vengeance can be defeated with ONE button: Double tap in any direction. Because when the timer runs out on Vengeance the warrior dies on its own. So the warrior pops up, you run away, and then they drop dead on their own. You can turn your back on a downed warrior and you'll be fine. Turn your back on a downed ranger and it'll find you at the next camp.

[draxynnic.3719]

On the mesmer, one factor to consider is that while they can only have three clones out at once, phantasms don't count. I think there's also a point in the shattering process where clones stop counting for the limit but are still on the field, although it is fairly brief. (I think the way it works is that if a clone is overwritten, but had already received a shatter order, it will complete that order rather than being overwritten. Don't quote me on that without verification, though.)

Another factor is that sometimes (not often, but sometimes) you get players with near-identical toons intentionally trying to hide that it's not actually a 1v1 until it's too late due to the confusion of what's a clone and what's a real player. Could be two mesmers, but a thief using a lot of stealth might also be able to get a few hits in before you realise that the 'clone' is using the wrong skill animations.

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

I just want a utility that can revive my pet. I hate having to get out of combat just for it to start regenning its health back.

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 12/15/2023 at 6:59 AM, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Lick Wounds is one of the most effective Downed Skills in the game and it means that unless there is something to put the ranger down for good, that ranger is getting back up.

In sPvP, if a team downs a ranger and lets it get back up via Lick Wounds, that's a sign of a bad, bad team. Don't even need to commit to a stealth+stability+whatever stomp; pretty standard cleave damage can do the trick. People forget that the pet dies pretty quickly, and that ends Lick Wounds. Even if you swap pets, Lick Wounds is on CD.

Moral of the story: Lick Wounds can bring a ranger back up in competitive ONLY if there is absolutely zero pressure. Literally have to have everyone ignore the bleeding out ranger.

Yeah from that alone I could tell you had no experience against rangers in sPvP. You couldn't be more wrong about its effectiveness.

[Ehecatl.9172]

This community has a real problem with "AI" builds, and Ranger is a class that revolves around fighting in tandem with an AI. There is a vocal portion of the PVP community who genuinely don't want rangers to be viable for the same reasons they don't want turret engineers or minion necromancers to be viable. They think true PVP can only happen when absolutely no automation on either side is involved.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

This community has a real problem with "AI" builds, and Ranger is a class that revolves around fighting in tandem with an AI. There is a vocal portion of the PVP community who genuinely don't want rangers to be viable for the same reasons they don't want turret engineers or minion necromancers to be viable. They think true PVP can only happen when absolutely no automation on either side is involved.

I don't think that holds true since Rangers most power elite is Soulbeast which removes the pet. Even Untamed isn't pet reliant since most of the time you keep your Pet on follow and unleashed so you get damage reduction or projectiles block (as a reaction). You only need to Unleash yourself to Ambush and burst someone down. 

Maybe this hold true for Druid players but I rarely see it played like this. Most pet complaints are aimed towards Mechanist these days. 

[Sansar.1302]

Migth be time to remove the pet completly   ( it is almost total useless and ruin our ballance )