Make a better game engine

[kubikator.9105]

On 12/14/2023 at 3:52 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

There is lots they can do to improve the current engine? Maybe ... that has nothing to do with what this thread is about, or what I said though. 

Interesting though ...  Anet already did a thing to improve the current engine, like, 2-3 years ago. Now, it's certainly easy to say this leads to more people playing and more money. Not sure that's actually the result though. Unless you have something that suggests that happened, then you don't really know.  Same thing assuming it's a 'top' reason people stop playing the game. 

I'm not assuming, its a fact. Games with best accessibility have the most players and make the most money. ( Hardware wise, software wise, monetization wise, etc. ) Some examples Genshin Impact, Legaue of Legends, Counter Strike, Heartstone, etc. Guildwars is hard winning on the monetization side, which keeps the game alive to this day, but been lacking performance wise for past 10 years... And the dx11 changes + steam release have boosted this game's popularity a lot. ( forgot the most obvious examples - Minecraft and Roblox xD )

Edited December 15, 2023 by kubikator.9105

[Artemis.8034]

Im just waiting to see what comes next, what the new game will be

[Obtena.7952]

On 12/15/2023 at 4:08 PM, kubikator.9105 said:

I'm not assuming, its a fact. Games with best accessibility have the most players and make the most money. ( Hardware wise, software wise, monetization wise, etc. ) Some examples Genshin Impact, Legaue of Legends, Counter Strike, Heartstone, etc. Guildwars is hard winning on the monetization side, which keeps the game alive to this day, but been lacking performance wise for past 10 years... And the dx11 changes + steam release have boosted this game's popularity a lot. ( forgot the most obvious examples - Minecraft and Roblox xD )

Well no, facts aren't just based off of just 'saying so' . You have a hypothesis about "best accessibility = most players and money", well, GW2 is VERY accessible. Like, it runs off a potato. That's about as accessible as it gets if you think about how many people have access to potato computers or better. Yet, it's not the most players or money in the history of GW2, INCLUDING the last engine upgrade ... so, something about what you are saying doesn't jive with reality. 

But here is a fact.: Your generalization and hypothesis disregards all kinds of factors that determine 'more money/players' and that the simple conclusion that engine upgrade = more money/players is an over-simplification. There has to be a business case to determine if things like upgrades are worth doing. It's not a foregone conclusion it should just happen because 'more money/players'. That's just nonsensical. 

But don't take my word for it ... Anet already did upgrade the engine once. Was there a flood of players and money when that happened? IIRC, if there was, it was pretty short lived and not very significant. Why would anyone expect another upgrade to have a different result than the first time Anet did that?

Look, I get it. You think engine upgrades would be awesome, especially from the perspective of a player who only thinks of the benefits of such a thing. That's simply not reality. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[kubikator.9105]

52 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well no, facts aren't just based off of just 'saying so' . You have a hypothesis about "best accessibility = most players and money", well, GW2 is VERY accessible. Like, it runs off a potato. That's pretty accessible in my book if you think about how many people own potato computers. Yet, it's not the most players or money ... so, something about what you are saying doesn't jive with reality. 

But here is a fact.: Your generalization and hypothesis disregards all kinds of factors that determine 'more money/players' and that the simple conclusion that engine upgrade = more money/players is an over-simplification. There has to be a business case to determine if things like upgrades are worth doing. It's not a foregone conclusion it should just happen because 'more money/players'. That's just nonsensical. 

But don't take my word for it ... Anet already did upgrade the engine once. Was there a flood of players and money when that happened? IIRC, if there was, it was pretty short lived and very significant. Why would anyone expect another upgrade to have a different result than the first time Anet did that?

Look, I get it. You think engine upgrades would be awesome, especially from the perspective of a player who only thinks of the benefits of such a thing. That's simply not reality. 

Look at the graph look at the dates. The accessibility certainly did something and performance upgrade as well, sadly it might be too late to retain players with great user experience when the game is known to not perform well.

Found this graph on the forums for you - https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/685436537827098645/1174046090702635018/gw2-sales-2012q3-2023q3.png
DirectX11 Support is Coming to Guild Wars 2 September 16, 2021 https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/directx11-support-is-coming-to-guild-wars-2/
Steam release - August 23, 2022
Gw2 goes f2p - August 25, 2015

[Obtena.7952]

13 minutes ago, kubikator.9105 said:

Look at the graph look at the dates. The accessibility certainly did something and performance upgrade as well, sadly it might be too late to retain players with great user experience when the game is known to not perform well.

Found this graph on the forums for you - https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/685436537827098645/1174046090702635018/gw2-sales-2012q3-2023q3.png
DirectX11 Support is Coming to Guild Wars 2 September 16, 2021 https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/directx11-support-is-coming-to-guild-wars-2/
Steam release - August 23, 2022
Gw2 goes f2p - August 25, 2015

Weird interpretation of the data ... what date are you specifically looking at that supports your claim? I see lots of revenue bumps due to new content being released ... as anyone would expect. I don't see some massive bump because of engine upgrade.  

Again, these generalization you are making does not match the reality of GW2. We had an engine upgrade. It wasn't the windfall of players/money that you claim engine upgrades should be. There is no reason to think that if we had another upgrade, the result in players/money would be any different. These are business decisions that are much more complex than you are seemingly aware of. 

What is interesting here is that you didn't ask yourself why a successful game like GW2 has only had one engine upgrade if what you are claiming is indeed a general fact. 

If anything, that graph shows the BEST driver of 'more players/money' is new content, not engine upgrades. Again, the game runs on a potato ... and the new content will also run on that same potato as the old content. Again, reality ... we get a continuous stream of new content, but not engine upgrades ... I wonder why? 🤔

Edited December 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[kubikator.9105]

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

Weird interpretation ... that graph SHOWS the claim you are making that game engine upgrades are 'more players/money' isn't true in the case of GW2. That bump is due to new content being released, just like ALL the other bumps dues to previous content. 

Again, these generalization you are making does not match the reality of GW2. We had an engine upgrade. It wasn't the windfall of players/money that you claim engine upgrades should be. There is no reason to think that if we had another upgrade, the result in players/money would be any different. These are business decisions that are much more complex than you are seemingly aware of. 

What is interesting here is that you didn't ask yourself why a successful game like GW2 has only had one engine upgrade if what you are claiming is indeed a general fact. 

If anything, that graph shows the BEST driver of 'more players/money' is new content, not engine upgrades. Again, the game runs on a potato ... and the new content will also run on that same potato as the old content. 

The graph literally shows that they retained more players than ever before after the engine upgrade...

I asked myself that question like a million times, especially when I got to a world boss and the game would run at 30 fps and every time I went to Lions arch pre Dx11 and the game would stutter every 10 seconds. Other mmos and games in general also run on potato 🙂 but run way better. Im done.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, kubikator.9105 said:

The graph literally shows that they retained more players than ever before after the engine upgrade...

I asked myself that question like a million times, especially when I got to a world boss and the game would run at 30 fps and every time I went to Lions arch pre Dx11 and the game would stutter every 10 seconds. Other mmos and games in general also run on potato 🙂 but run way better. Im done.

Again, what date are you talking about on that chart and how do you conclude that those players are retained because of the engine upgrade and NOT something else?

I mean, there is a SMALL 1 quarter increase in Q4 2021 around the time the engine was released ... and then it went back down again next quarter. Other than that, the revenue trends are following behaviour similar to what we saw in GW2 when there WAS no engine upgrades prior to that date and even AFTER that date more recently. 

So again, it makes no sense for you to simply and arbitrarily assign any positive bumps or trends in revenue data after Q4 2021 to the ONE engine upgrade we had in GW2, just to argue with me that it's a fact that engine upgrades = more players/money. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[kubikator.9105]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, what date are you talking about on that chart and how do you conclude that those players are retained because of the engine upgrade and NOT something else?

I'm looking at Q3 2021 onwards. And I'm looking at the drops after each content update since launch. Don't make me go into macro economics and explaining what other game companies did and politics... If you want to be that specific then there is no certain answer to anything... I'm looking at this case as its a product with its strengths and weaknesses.

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by kubikator.9105

[Obtena.7952]

14 minutes ago, kubikator.9105 said:

I'm looking at Q3 2021 onwards. ... If you want to be that specific then there is no certain answer to anything... I'm looking at this case as its a product with its strength and weaknesses.

 

Right, and NOTHING about the revenue chart you provided prove that it's a fact that engine upgrads = more money/players. In fact, based on the events attached to the quarters, its MORE LIKELY that new content is what = more money/players, not engine upgrades. 

Here is the thing ...  YOU are the one claiming it's FACTS that engine upgrades = more players/money. The only way you can show that to be FACTUALLY true is if you DO have something that is more specific than what we have. You don't, so you shouldn't be arguing with me in the first place. 

So again, it's OVERLY SIMPLISTIC to conclude what you are claiming is a fact.  It may in fact cost Anet more money to upgrade the engine than the increased revenues they get from the additional people who join the game due to the engine upgrade. Somehow, that possibility has not been accounted for in your 'fact', nor when you consider the revenue chart and ALL the other reasons that people play and spend money on the game. 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[kubikator.9105]

8 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right, and NOTHING about the revenue chart you provided prove that it's a fact that engine upgrads = more money/players. In fact, based on the events attached to the quarters, its MORE LIKELY that new content is what = more money/players, not engine upgrades. 

Here is the thing ...  YOU are the one claiming it's FACTS that engine upgrades = more players/money. The only way you can show that to be FACTUALLY true is if you DO have something that is more specific than what we have. You don't, so you shouldn't be arguing with me in the first place. 

So again, it's OVERLY SIMPLISTIC to conclude what you are claiming is a fact.  It may in fact cost Anet more money to upgrade the engine than the increased revenues they get from the additional people who join the game due to the engine upgrade. Somehow, that possibility has not been accounted for in your 'fact', nor when you consider the revenue chart and ALL the other reasons that people play and spend money on the game. 

 

According to gw2 wiki, they have 1 person listed as a engine dev ( the costs must be in bilions 🙂 ) And the graph is still showing that ever after release of dx11 beta in Q3 2021 their revenue stopped fluctuating with crazy drops, compared to any content release ever before.

I'm also a software engineer so I have some insight into how software is made... I know that making money is a complex thing... on the other hand the market clearly shows that the most dominant games in every genre are the ones that run on pretty much anything ( especially phones ) with a decent performance, decent graphics and smart monetization. And also other mmos like FF14, WoW, Eso have been getting engine/performance updates for years. Some has even reworked the visuals completely like WoW, or FF14 getting a full visual overhaul next year.

Seems like you have no insight into gaming/programming industry and so far you haven't stated any counter examples or data that disproof anything I've said. You just don't see the full picture and blame me for not explaining every detail and history fact... 

 

[Teknomancer.4895]

4 hours ago, kubikator.9105 said:

And the graph is still showing that ever after release of dx11 beta in Q3 2021 their revenue stopped fluctuating with crazy drops, compared to any content release ever before.

That quote seems to indicate that improving the stability and performance of the game might be more about "existing-player retention" than anything about new players. Nothing will turn away new players of an MMO (Massively Multiplayer Online) much faster than a perception that the game's population is falling fast. It's doubtful that something perceived (rightly or wrongly) as a dying game is going to attract a whole lot of new-player revenue.

Most new players aren't very likely to know or care about the game's engine before playing it therefore it's probably a very minor purchase consideration (if at all), where existing players are quite familiar with its performance, having direct experience with it during their time playing the game. "If this thing bugs out on me one more time..." ragequits and all that.

And I'll go ahead and throw in the obligatory "NCSoft-Anet has fewer resources to draw upon than Square Enix and MS-Actiblizz" remark just to get it out of the way.

It's a complicated equation, and I don't really think any one thing can be pointed at to say "this will increase revenue!" 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Teknomancer.4895
clarity

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, kubikator.9105 said:

Seems like you have no insight into gaming/programming industry ...

 

That's a fallacy right there. Just because you work in SOME way in the software industry, doesn't add any credence to what you are saying about the 'fact' that upgrade=more people/money. You want to argue with me about something that is a 'fact', you better bring more than just "I work in the industry and you don't". You have no idea what I do professionally. 

Revenue fluctuations dropped after the engine upgrade release? Maybe ... except revenue fluctuations isn't what you decided to argue with me about. Your original claim is that engine upgrades = more money/players, not about stabilizing revenues. That's just you moving goalposts. 

The biggest problem with you claim is that you don't  acknowledge there were LOTS of events going on at the time of the engine upgrade that ALSO affected revenue and if there is a fact that needs to be stated, it's this:

We don't know the revenue contribution of any particular event.  It could be that the upgrade contribution to revenue ...is 0% ... or it could be 100%. That graph doesn't tell you, so you can't us it to support your claim. 

What I also know is that even if your claim is correct, it's irrelevant from a business POV because the upgrade cost might exceed the more money from the more people it results in. You wouldn't be arguing with me in the first place if you understood that. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[kiroho.4738]

On 12/12/2023 at 1:46 AM, IamSatan.7368 said:

Just a thought why dont ANET make a better game engine so that the game run smoother in populated zone? I have a rtx 4090 so i shouldnt have to experience 20-30 frames in an old game.

What you are asking for is to change the foundation of an already built house.
You need to rebuild the whole house.

About your GPU, GW2 is an CPU intensive game. Your GPU can be rather weak, what you need is a strong CPU.

[Chrome.9841]

Well gw2 almost reached it's end so... Only thing i wonder is will there be Guild Wars 3 with better graphic engines?

[kiroho.4738]

On 12/12/2023 at 7:31 PM, Vilin.8056 said:

Seriously guys, let us pretending that gaming rig, despite with a Rtx 4090, does not have a high-end CPU.

I mean, I get more than 20-30 fps in most scenarios with my old 1070, soo. . .

[oOCitadelOo.2381]

Personally, runs fine on my machine. Though I have a higher tiered with a 4090 oc edition gpu. 

And gw2 in general running strong. However, I am sure the next generation is coming. 

[Ashen.2907]

On 12/16/2023 at 12:53 AM, kubikator.9105 said:

disproof anything I've said

He doesn't need to disprove something that hasn't been proven. As a software engineer you are of course familiar with the fact that correlation doesn't equal causation. Support your position sufficiently to merit counterpoint before expecting anyone to disprove your argument. 

[Mirion.9361]

On 12/12/2023 at 1:46 AM, IamSatan.7368 said:

Just a thought why dont ANET make a better game engine so that the game run smoother in populated zone? I have a rtx 4090 so i shouldnt have to experience 20-30 frames in an old game.

Dont feel bad bro, ive been complaining about this since 2014 and the developers dont have the $$$ like the big bois do for example (Blizzard Entertainment & Activision),

They dont care about the game stability, they only care about their Gem store cash grabs for ez money and same old skins, They are basically just like GTA V with a bunch of DLC 

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

On 12/11/2023 at 7:58 PM, neighto.7386 said:

OP you do know the game is 11 years old right?   its not going to run the same as a new game.   Be thankful its still up and getting new content this far down the road.    What you are asking is really unreasonable

This attitude is why mmos arent doing well as a genre and why gatcha games/mobile games are dominating.  They should adapt and figure out new ways to monetize so they can adapt.  Acting like its impossible or unreasonable isnt helping either.

 

What I find unreasonable is making GW3 to cannibalize gw2 players, and expecting me with all my gold/achivements and skins to lose it all and pick up a new game. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Michi.4217]

On 12/16/2023 at 5:47 AM, Artemis.8034 said:

Im just waiting to see what comes next, what the new game will be

Its GW3-- The Asuran Insurrection

Its when us asurans rise up and take our rightful place as rulers of Tyria. Rest ya squatter races  will become house pets or be kicked to the curb

[starlinvf.1358]

On 12/18/2023 at 6:48 AM, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

This attitude is why mmos arent doing well as a genre and why gatcha games/mobile games are dominating.  They should adapt and figure out new ways to monetize so they can adapt.  Acting like its impossible or unreasonable isnt helping either.

 

What I find unreasonable is making GW3 to cannibalize gw2 players, and expecting me with all my gold/achivements and skins to lose it all and pick up a new game. 

This makes me wish someone could figure out a format that allows immigration of old characters, without it breaking game design.   At minimum it would be unified economy, and probably less focused on infinite progression.  Sadly thats what most MMORPGs end up being now 

[Melody.8123]

Its true, this games engine is just horse, its not "Just saying so", it is a straight up fact, you can check my posts from earlier this year about micro stutters, still to this day, it has not been fixed 🙂

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

On 12/18/2023 at 12:48 AM, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

This attitude is why mmos arent doing well as a genre and why gatcha games/mobile games are dominating.  They should adapt and figure out new ways to monetize so they can adapt.  Acting like its impossible or unreasonable isnt helping either.

 

What I find unreasonable is making GW3 to cannibalize gw2 players, and expecting me with all my gold/achivements and skins to lose it all and pick up a new game. 

WEll i like how people dont agree. what am i supposed to do, play gw2 after gw3 comes out? they'll be no new content for gw2 so it will be dead, and since I do everything there is to do on gw2 whats the point of playing anymore if there is nothing new? This is exactly what happened to me (and everyone else) in gw1.

So then I should just buy gw3 and play it as a new mmo?  why play gw3? Why not just play wow or ffxiv, where I have an account and they still make new content for it, or just play another MMO out there since none of my stuff (most likely) will transfer over from gw2.  Or even better just stop playing mmos altogether (which is the mentality of most which is why mmos arent doing well compared to other genres) since whats locking me into play gw2 is my existing account achieves/gold/skins.

This doesnt seem confusing what Im writing but I guess its confusing for some.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[enigmatic.3576]

On 12/11/2023 at 4:46 PM, IamSatan.7368 said:

Just a thought why dont ANET make a better game engine so that the game run smoother in populated zone? I have a rtx 4090 so i shouldnt have to experience 20-30 frames in an old game.

If you have a 4090 and only getting 20-30 frames then it's a you issue and not the game.  I can get more than that consistently with a weaker card.

[kharmin.7683]

16 hours ago, Melody.8123 said:

Its true, this games engine is just horse, its not "Just saying so", it is a straight up fact, you can check my posts from earlier this year about micro stutters, still to this day, it has not been fixed 🙂

There are no horses in Tyria.