Nerf DH guardian traps.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Remember when anet nerfed everyones damage in that patch like 4 years ago but forgot about ToF for some reason.

[Galisaa.8304]

DH damage is about the same as before. They had high damage in high telegraph scenarios that could be killed by most classes as is it was so squishy. DH also has 0 sustain so you could beat them in two rotations of basic skills if you used everything else defensively. The population was manageable. You saw few dh, most sticking with their team as dps (to survive). A few higher risk roamer dh.

What changed? +180 vitality and aegis on trap. In a vacuum, this is fine, the issue is combing with defender relic. (I kid you not, I had a game go long for 500kdmg, 300k healing; defender was only source of healing.) Now, your builds which could out-sustain cd rotation can't because of the extra healing.

Other points of frustrations:

• Traps do so much damage they are mandatory to play around. Both the procing of and the avoiding of the damage. If the dh gets to set a rotation of traps AND have the full CD ready to go they have resources to bully.
• The elite trap. No way to tell if it's trapping you or your ally. Tooltip doesn't help learning how to play against. Dodging late makes it worse. Have to test/wiki which skills will go through and which won't.

How I'd change dh?  Test of faith, not able to be cast while cc'd for instant protection; -10% scaling dmg, +2sec cd. Blades, 8 hits over the same amount of time, +4scd.

Edit1: I forgot to mention how the flavor of the month is making two dh on each time a reality. Quadruple the traps, quadruple the fun?

In conclusion, nerfs might be warranted. As a fun note, here is my bunker-ish dh. Weakness of the build is speedy ranged dps which never fight in melee. DH was one of my most played before last patch >.>,

Edit2: Taking some projectile reflect can feel great and give your team 5~ secs to ignore dh and focus another target.

Edited January 4 by Galisaa.8304

[Sahne.6950]

9 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

hotfix this kitten Anet.. its worse than condi cata

This is the type of sentences why you are farming confused.

[Saiyan.1704]

7 hours ago, Galisaa.8304 said:

How I'd change dh?  Test of faith, not able to be cast while cc'd for instant protection; -10% scaling dmg, +2sec cd. Blades, 8 hits over the same amount of time, +4scd.

Respectfully, these are terrible changes that wouldn't impact DH at all. If you don't want ToF to be casted while being CC'd then what you're really asking is to not have Aegis on an instant cast trap (we have 2 instant cast traps, of which 1 is meta and 1 is not taken by most DH guards). You're obviously still CC''d inside a parameter damaging trap regardless.... assuming this is what you meant by "changes to ToF". Most Guards use ToF offensively not defensively.

[Flowki.7194]

9 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

This is the type of sentences why you are farming confused.

The spec is simply too easy to play, it always has been, regardless of its historic effectiveness. I meam cmon.. if you half condi mechs damage is it suddenly 50% harder to play? Why can't people make this distinction?

 

Dodging true/jav is only half the battle. Many games have 2 DH on one side, even if you dodge those they are still spamming traps, just like the poster below points out (there are multiple other CC from other specs that can also pull you toward traps). Anybody who wants to contest the point (why the hell not???) have to then deal with the most easy area denial/damage I have ever seen in any game. It is not hard enough to justify the area denial, and then the average DH doesnt dodge EVER, face tanking multiple hits becuase its a gaurdian. You put it all together and its simply not good. Can plat players work around 2xdh? I dunno can you?.. but the amount of skill and game sense needed to effectively counter a DH (bar going LB ranger), is far beyound the effort the DH puts in, which asks far more effort to be countered. So then, a bad DH gets to farm other bad players with 0 effort? why? that is not healthy for the game at all, and is no wonder more people jump on the bandwaggon. If DH is not effective against good players, yet it farms bad players with 0 effort, that in-itself is toxic for the game over all. Don't you want average level players trying to play specs that can actually compete at higher level, you know? so you don't get your plat title through farming silvers. The game is full of people wanting easy kills, or wanting to abuse the awefull MMR/duo system becuase they care more about rank than quality, equal skilled games.

 

17 hours ago, Galisaa.8304 said:

DH damage is about the same as before. They had high damage in high telegraph scenarios that could be killed by most classes as is it was so squishy. DH also has 0 sustain so you could beat them in two rotations of basic skills if you used everything else defensively. The population was manageable. You saw few dh, most sticking with their team as dps (to survive). A few higher risk roamer dh.

What changed? +180 vitality and aegis on trap. In a vacuum, this is fine, the issue is combing with defender relic. (I kid you not, I had a game go long for 500kdmg, 300k healing; defender was only source of healing.) Now, your builds which could out-sustain cd rotation can't because of the extra healing.

Other points of frustrations:

• Traps do so much damage they are mandatory to play around. Both the procing of and the avoiding of the damage. If the dh gets to set a rotation of traps AND have the full CD ready to go they have resources to bully.
• The elite trap. No way to tell if it's trapping you or your ally. Tooltip doesn't help learning how to play against. Dodging late makes it worse. Have to test/wiki which skills will go through and which won't.

How I'd change dh?  Test of faith, not able to be cast while cc'd for instant protection; -10% scaling dmg, +2sec cd. Blades, 8 hits over the same amount of time, +4scd.

Edit1: I forgot to mention how the flavor of the month is making two dh on each time a reality. Quadruple the traps, quadruple the fun?

In conclusion, nerfs might be warranted. As a fun note, here is my bunker-ish dh. Weakness of the build is speedy ranged dps which never fight in melee. DH was one of my most played before last patch >.>,

Edit2: Taking some projectile reflect can feel great and give your team 5~ secs to ignore dh and focus another target.

 

Edited January 4 by Flowki.7194

[Vinny.7260]

Quietly walks through the forum to see any new posts...

Drops a nicely decorated box. Wow, it looks nice!

Looks like a lot of time was put into the intricacies in the folds of the wrapping paper, the dainty little red ribbon bow on top, the 'To: Reader' written in Comic Sans. You catch yourself salivating at the aroma emanating from it!

Do you open it?

Yes:

Spoiler

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKwEwEGpMCWDjiNxKxi2yv9D-DaIPlMlAdLCCYB0xQwW3AAA
 

Feel free to test other sigils, runes, and relics. I personally like using these. Gun Flame memes ftw!

 

No:

Spoiler

Wow. You bothered to read this and even clicked the no spoiler? Smh my head.

 

Skitters away in a panic.

[Kees Flodder.1269]

56 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The spec is simply too easy to play, it always has been, regardless of its historic effectiveness. I meam cmon.. if you half condi mechs damage is it suddenly 50% harder to play? Why can't people make this distinction?

 

Dodging true/jav is only half the battle. Many games have 2 DH on one side, even if you dodge those they are still spamming traps, just like the poster below points out (there are multiple other CC from other specs that can also pull you toward traps). Anybody who wants to contest the point (why the hell not???) have to then deal with the most easy area denial/damage I have ever seen in any game. It is not hard enough to justify the area denial, and then the average DH doesnt dodge EVER, face tanking multiple hits becuase its a gaurdian. You put it all together and its simply not good. Can plat players work around 2xdh? I dunno can you?.. but the amount of skill and game sense needed to effectively counter a DH (bar going LB ranger), is far beyound the effort the DH puts in, which asks far more effort to be countered. So then, a bad DH gets to farm other bad players with 0 effort? why? that is not healthy for the game at all, and is no wonder more people jump on the bandwaggon. If DH is not effective against good players, yet it farms bad players with 0 effort, that in-itself is toxic for the game over all. Don't you want average level players trying to play specs that can actually compete at higher level, you know? so you don't get your plat title through farming silvers. The game is full of people wanting easy kills, or wanting to abuse the awefull MMR/duo system becuase they care more about rank than quality, equal skilled games.

 

 

This is exactly how i think about it.

[Flowki.7194]

10 minutes ago, Kees Flodder.1269 said:

This is exactly how i think about it.

Gaurdian in general is a horrible class that is built from the bottom up to face tank. Dhs have enough of their own brainless block spam, but then put in a core gaurd and what is it?... nion 2/3rds of attacks are blocked, not dodged.. not conciously used, just fking random block spam.

 

Half of gaurdians issues would be solved if they had to actually combo for blocks.. but we wouldnt want skill based mechanics would we?

Edited January 4 by Flowki.7194

[Vinny.7260]

15 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Gaurdian in general is a horrible class that is built from the bottom up to face tank. Dhs have enough of their own brainless block spam, but then put in a core gaurd and what is it?... nion 2/3rds of attacks are blocked, not dodged.. not conciously used, just fking random block spam.

 

Half of gaurdians issues would be solved if they had to actually combo for blocks.. but we wouldnt want skill based mechanics would we?

I got the solution. Let's make blasting or leaping in light fields give Aegis. AoE or self respectively.

 

You said combos. 

[Flowki.7194]

32 minutes ago, Vinny.7260 said:

I got the solution. Let's make blasting or leaping in light fields give Aegis. AoE or self respectively.

 

You said combos. 

I dunno if you are mocking here, but instant block is as bad as instant stability. Both now mainstays in the game becuase of high damage and CC spam -gw2. Also when you conside the fact aegis still allows players to attack, and is so spammable between DH/core on point, its just another form of attacking while immune, which once again does not punish the players for having kitten dodge. The average fight now vs multiple gaurdians.. just auto attack for the first 10 seconds till the majority of the block spam is done with. At the same time.. the DHs are spamming you with true and chances to pull you into 1 shots in the first 10 seconds, while never dodging once. But lets keep defending this?

Edited January 4 by Flowki.7194

[Vinny.7260]

1 minute ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I dunno if you are mocking here, but instant block is as bad as instant stability. Both now mainstays in the game becuase of high damage and CC spam -gw2.

Uhm... Uhhh.... Audibly swallows .. Totally was a genuine response! 🙂

 

[Flowki.7194]

9 minutes ago, Vinny.7260 said:

Uhm... Uhhh.... Audibly swallows .. Totally was a genuine response! 🙂

 

Well regardless, Anet seem to counter one bad mechanic by an even worse mechanic. To many boons? lets give an AOE relic boon rip. Too many stuns? lets give instant stability. Too much damage? lets ramp up blocks and shielding for pressing dps buttons you were pressing anyway, which is basically passive mitigation at that point. And so on.

 

Another key thing ive noticed from all this block spam from gaurdians on points is easy ressing. Ranged resses, block/trap+aegis covered manual reses.. on specs that are already face tank friednly, I mean.. welcome to the never stomp again erer. There are multiple times ive killed a player around garuds.. seen them rush to the downed player, and I just walk way, no point.

Edited January 4 by Flowki.7194

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 1/3/2024 at 6:00 AM, Frequency.6407 said:

It's a case of people just forgetting how to deal with DH and some people realised that.

I'd say give it another month and everyone will learn to deal with it.

I think this is it. 

I've been running a staff druid for some time now, and I still have all the same tools to deal with DH. The easiest one is just to sacrifice one pet to trigger traps on an empty node that the sad lonely DH is guarding, while I'm actually multitasking and doing something else. If I do happen to get speared and pulled, Signet of Stone basically lets me walk away for free, added bonus if they wasted a True Shot into it as well.

Of course that's just for one particular flavor of ranger, but I get the feeling that whatever set of tools you had which made DH lose relevance for a long time are still there, and still just as usable.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Vinny.7260 said:

Quietly walks through the forum to see any new posts...

Drops a nicely decorated box. Wow, it looks nice!

Looks like a lot of time was put into the intricacies in the folds of the wrapping paper, the dainty little red ribbon bow on top, the 'To: Reader' written in Comic Sans. You catch yourself salivating at the aroma emanating from it!

Do you open it?

Yes:

  Reveal hidden contents

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKwEwEGpMCWDjiNxKxi2yv9D-DaIPlMlAdLCCYB0xQwW3AAA
 

Feel free to test other sigils, runes, and relics. I personally like using these. Gun Flame memes ftw!

 

No:

  Reveal hidden contents

Wow. You bothered to read this and even clicked the no spoiler? Smh my head.

 

Skitters away in a panic.

a.) You are correct.

b.) People won't do it because living on gunzerker is hard and people like having their cake and eating it too

57 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Half of gaurdians issues would be solved if they had to actually combo for blocks.. 

You don't want this. This is Willbender F3 on every spec, regardless of how you mean the word "combo".

Edited January 4 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Flowki.7194]

10 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

a.) You are correct.

b.) People won't do it because living on gunzerker is hard and people like having their cake and eating it too

You don't want this. This is Willbender F3 on every spec, regardless of how you mean the word "combo".

As opposed to what, aegis procs for business as usual?

 

It is no coincidence that nion 99/100 dhs I faced don't dodge, they are clearly not being punished enough from the spec to learn from it. Its not like they dodge at the wrong time, they litterally just don't dodge. Its as if all the block spam allows it ;/

Edited January 4 by Flowki.7194

[Kuya.6495]

8 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

As opposed to what, aegis procs for business as usual?

 

It is no coincidence that nion 99/100 dhs I faced don't dodge, they are clearly not being punished enough from the spec to learn from it. Its not like they dodge at the wrong time, they litterally just don't dodge. Its as if all the block spam allows it ;/

What is this supposed to mean? In your personal experience DHs don't dodge your attacks so this means DH needs nerfs? Why would a dh need to dodge your attacks if you are blasting your attacks into their f3s so they can safely free cast on you? 

 

If you want dh to get nerfed at least make arguments that don't imply you don't know what you're doing.

Edited January 4 by Kuya.6495

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

17 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

As opposed to what, aegis procs for business as usual?

It is no coincidence that nion 99/100 dhs I faced don't dodge, they are clearly not being punished enough from the spec to learn from it. Its not like they dodge at the wrong time, they litterally just don't dodge. Its as if all the block spam allows it ;/

Aegis doesn't protect them so much that they can afford to not dodge. That's a specific skill with a specific cooldown.

When there's issues with specific specs of classes, the balancing suggestions should be targeted enough that nerfing (if needed) only addresses the problematic play and, if said problematic play is the only thing that spec has going for it, introduces something that is still competitive. 

Making sweeping changes to aegis, especially in ways that make them easier to obtain, is almost certainly not what you want. 

Edited January 4 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Flowki.7194]

31 minutes ago, Kuya.6495 said:

What is this supposed to mean? In your personal experience DHs don't dodge your attacks so this means DH needs nerfs? Why would a dh need to dodge your attacks if you are blasting your attacks into their f3s so they can safely free cast on you? 

 

If you want dh to get nerfed at least make arguments that don't imply you don't know what you're doing.

Thats assumptions, and this is about DH+core gaurd during openers, where random blocks negate longer cast/range abilitys. If the gaurd is blocking, you then basically have to what? auto attack, or just not attack and wait for all the block spam to subside, while the DHs are free to spam true, harp, and traps? its just another form of invuln where they can spew out attacks while never dodging, and then spew out more active mitigation which further does not depend on dodging, or just spam more traps to deny area while running around pillars. These DHs are also topping damage, which is hilarious to see.

 

Anybody, feel free to monitor the average DH and see if they dodge at all. They are too busy spamming traps, true and spear. They remind me a little of WB/power necros, who basically hold W for the first 15 seconds, roll their face across damage keys, and then panic spam dodge as a last resort when their faceroll fails. Only diff, the DH doesnt even hold W 😜 what a game.

Edited January 4 by Flowki.7194

[Eddbopkins.2630]

nerf everything on dh. from traps to long bow to signet damage. it all need a shaving of 25% less damage at least.

Edited January 5 by Eddbopkins.2630

[Sahne.6950]

Sometimes i wonder, if the people complaining about DH, have ever played it.

[Sahne.6950]

7 hours ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

nerf everything on dh. from traps to long bow to signet damage. it all need a shaving of 25% less damage at least.

meh... idk really.... 

They still fold, when you catch them with their pants down.... and the attks are telegraphed and also reflectable for the most part....

 

If anything, the Aegis on instantskills is problematic, because it lets you tank alot of hits that were previously going to outright delete you.

But then again....  i kiiind of like it... because its not yet another flavor of "press this button and be immune for the next 3 seconds".   You need to precisely activate the aegis to block the bighitters.....   its...... oh man im gonna farm confused for this....   its a form of "skill".         i think yall know how i mean that. 

Its something active, and not yet another fullinvuln.          But i think its problematic, and one of the reasons this forum is full of  " buhu nerf DH"...... 

The Good DH´s are actively using the aegis on traps to block bighitters.....    but poor silver noob only sees that he never dodges... then he eats a 10k Trueshot and dies.... next second, he finds himself in this forum crying.

 

Edited January 5 by Sahne.6950

[Flowki.7194]

On 1/5/2024 at 7:43 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

Sometimes i wonder, if the people complaining about DH, have ever played it.

I played it while it still had stealth, it was bad design even then, as it was unreliable but then did kitten damage when you pulled it off = toxic to play as and against. Now, the spec is easier to play, and less punishing. The current DH just rushes mid, then spams traps while dodging nothing AND attaining easy AOE area denial, making it just another itteration of scourge. But then, DH has some meaningful @1200 area denial with true/harp. Both the melee and ranged area denial is far easier to use than the risk/skill to counter it = toxic game design. But this is what happens with a playerbase who seem to think low effort specs should compete with high effort specs.. and this forum is nothing but an echo chamber of that playerbase.. aside from some other posters who, by their own admition, just gave up and go along with the "low effort high reward" mechanics. ANet clearly push this to please a playerbase of a spoilt, self entitled generation who want easy rewards, everybody else either left, or jumped on the low skill bandwaggon. Pure echo chamber.

Edited January 7 by Flowki.7194

[arazoth.7290]

If test of faith was nerfed/made non existant, how good would dh be? Ask that question And think how dh would play then and what the weak spots are atm without it.

[Irrational.2871]

bruh just get 1 ranger that will disarm  traps with pet ez

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 1/5/2024 at 8:43 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

Sometimes i wonder, if the people complaining about DH, have ever played it.

DH with aegis spam and relic of the defender is so fun to face, reminds me of vindicator on release