Cheap Character Deaths in SotO (Spoilers)

[Poormany.4507]

I was unimpressed with Mabon's quick death during the main story of SotO. (a) I didn't really feel any attachment to him because the story gave me no reason to care about him (other than he's Zojja's Astral Ward mentor and minimal personal background) and (b) It wasn't really justified, as we'd just seen Dagda, a lower rank Wizard, get cured of her Kryptis corruption just by defeating her. Now I Just finished Through the Veil and noticed yet another cheap named character death, Irja, who'd been introduced less than 5 minutes ago with zero background or personality (other than she was scared of everyone?) before she died.

I would really like the deaths in future expac stories to be more reserved to characters we actually "know" and meaningful so that they actually have an impact on us. For example, I loved how Aurene's initial "death" in The Crystal Dragon was perfectly done imo - It genuinely made players, including myself, feel sad/defeated and made them depressed/cry after finishing that chapter (without knowing her fate afterwards). The more recent ones, on the other hand, just make me confused and/or annoyed with the writers because they don't have any emotional attachment/significance for me.

[Keymaster.7362]

I was really impressed by Mabons death. Mainly because it seems, after so many years, after so many mistakes with Belinda, Blish and all the other unimportant character deaths, Arenanet is still unable to learn, and to improve in this specific part of story telling.

I don't understand the rush at all. The last story update was way to short for a 3 months break. Why didn't they simply give Mabon a little bit more screentime with some more story missions.

[mandala.8507]

On 1/28/2024 at 8:29 PM, Poormany.4507 said:

It wasn't really justified, as we'd just seen Dagda, a lower rank Wizard, get cured of her Kryptis corruption just by defeating her.

You've got some misconceptions about this, then.

Because Dagda immediately ran off to sequester herself and try to purge her possession, which she only managed to do with the help of Zojja and the Commander after we found her.

Mabon, on the other hand, kept pushing himself to his limit:

• saved us from Nayos 
• used a ton of extra power to save Lyhr after he became possessed while forging the key to unlock the tower, and when we found his other half which was also possessed
• again overexerted himself trying to get the tower under control and calm
• pushed too far even ANOTHER time when he had to help keep Zojja safe while she stood in for Isgarren to unlock the final chamber in the tower so they could reach Amnytas again

He had been using up power and worsening his vulnerability to possession that whole time, as all the wizards had been affected in some way by the initial Kryptis insurgence, but chose to aid in helping save the others and getting to Isgarren quickly instead of ensuring his own safety.

Part of Mabon's character that you discover in the post-expansion lore quests is that he views himself as an innately evil being deserving only of penance, despite the care and forgiveness he is capable of showing others. He made the conscious decision to save others and the world before himself, and so we see in his cutscene in the tower him come to the realization that he is fully compromised. At that point, he flees to seclusion in the Bastion of Strength to be someplace where he won't hurt any of his friends or followers when he falls, while hinting to those who needed to know not to try and save him.

Zojja refuses to accept this, which is why we go to find Mabon anyway, even though the other wizards are pretty confident he can't be saved.

We find out in our battle with the Kryptis who possessed him that his possession was far worse than Dagda's. Not all Kryptis are created equal, and Vanda's hive was likely weaker than Asthenes, who had the backing of Cerus. You could even perhaps say Peitha stepped in to help us with Dagda on her end, as we can hear her interrogating other Kryptis in her world to figure out who exactly it was trying to take Dagda over.

You're also incorrect in saying Dagda is a lower rank Wizard. Her and Mabon are the same rank: Wizard. You could argue that him being older and a Mursaat perhaps make him her senior and likely stronger, but this is never confirmed in the lore. For all we know, Dagda is stronger than Mabon (probably not, but we just don't know).

Was Mabon's death rushed and somewhat anticlimactic? Yes. Did we not get enough time to learn about his character before he died? Also yes. But you're reasoning for why his death wasn't justified is riddled with error.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Most people I know were attached to Mabon pretty quickly. But ofc, it won't be universal - in fact, no matter what you do, any one character will never be universally attached to players.

That said, I do think the obviously cut content between Tower of Secrets and Mabon's Fate really hinders it. That Mabon was there, talking ominously, then we immediately go "where's Mabon?" the moment we talk to the next NPC in the open world is pretty jarring. Especially since everyone just stands around during that ominous talking.

The story would have benefitted from us going to do something, to get told "Mabon vanished while you were out" and then we go to the beginning of Mabon's Fate.

On 1/28/2024 at 8:29 PM, Poormany.4507 said:

It wasn't really justified, as we'd just seen Dagda, a lower rank Wizard, get cured of her Kryptis corruption just by defeating her.

It actually is justified but... the justification isn't highlighted. During the battle, you'll notice the effect Tethered Life Force on the enemy, which reads "Asthenes has tethered its life force to Mabon, linking the fates of both together."

This should have been made more obvious in the actual dialogue, and include some moments of the Commander and NPCs being hesitant to kill Asthenes because of this. The fact Asthenes doesn't have a single line of voiced dialogue really doesn't help this either, as it makes Asthenes seem like some mook on par to any random champion from a tier 2 rift.

But it is still justified.

Edited February 2 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

Add in Cerus mentioned personally going to be present for Mabon's death, even if it meant unlinking briefly from Isgarren.

I didn't see him first time, but you can see him in the corner of the room when Mabon dies. If the other Kryptis hadn't killed him, I'm sure Cerus would have stepped in to deal the killing blow.

[Ashantara.8731]

On 1/29/2024 at 2:29 AM, Poormany.4507 said:

I was unimpressed with Mabon's quick death during the main story of SotO. (a) I didn't really feel any attachment to him because the story gave me no reason to care about him (other than he's Zojja's Astral Ward mentor and minimal personal background) and (b) It wasn't really justified, as we'd just seen Dagda, a lower rank Wizard, get cured of her Kryptis corruption just by defeating her. Now I Just finished Through the Veil and noticed yet another cheap named character death, Irja, who'd been introduced less than 5 minutes ago with zero background or personality (other than she was scared of everyone?) before she died.

I would really like the deaths in future expac stories to be more reserved to characters we actually "know" and meaningful so that they actually have an impact on us. For example, I loved how Aurene's initial "death" in The Crystal Dragon was perfectly done imo - It genuinely made players, including myself, feel sad/defeated and made them depressed/cry after finishing that chapter (without knowing her fate afterwards). The more recent ones, on the other hand, just make me confused and/or annoyed with the writers because they don't have any emotional attachment/significance for me.

Mabon had gone missing, and by the time we found him, he was too far gone. Dagda was still in a state where she could be saved.

But your point of criticism regarding rushed character deaths is valid nonetheless. Irja was really a bad joke ("What? Who? Why should I care?"), as was all of SotO Update 1, which was shorter than any content drop we've ever had. Even Gyala Delves' "tunnel" was more engaging than this.

[ArgothCZ.6420]

On 2/3/2024 at 9:58 AM, Ashantara.8731 said:

Mabon had gone missing, and by the time we found him, he was too far gone. Dagda was still in a state where she could be saved.

But your point of criticism regarding rushed character deaths is valid nonetheless. Irja was really a bad joke ("What? Who? Why should I care?"), as was all of SotO Update 1, which was shorter than any content drop we've ever had. Even Gyala Delves' "tunnel" was more engaging than this.

Mabon was quick, but it didn't feel weird.

Yeah, Irja was really confusing to me. It was like something was missing until I found out there was some (partially) hidden conversation, where Irja was not comfortable in the camp and wanted to go away. Still it felt like something added just for the extra drama or as if the content around Irja was cut to the core and then some more for some reason.

[Urud.4925]

Don't be too sad for Mabon. I'm sure there will be another "the very last Mursaat" in future. Such as a "this_time_for_real_last_dwarf".

[cloudsareyum.8120]

I hated Mabons death. It felt like such a waste of potential good storytelling only to kill someone arbitrary off -_-

[EdwinLi.1284]

On 2/5/2024 at 3:54 AM, Urud.4925 said:

Don't be too sad for Mabon. I'm sure there will be another "the very last Mursaat" in future. Such as a "this_time_for_real_last_dwarf".

funny thing about that, if I remember right one of Mabon's notes he made hinted that a group of Mursaat may have not turned evil before the events of their race going Evil happened and decided to separate themselves from the Evil Mursaat and establish a home somewhere in the Mist or Tyria. I forgot which note it was but this does mean there are maybe Mursaat still alive out there just that all Last Mursaat of the Evil Faction are now gone leaving only the Good/Neutral Faction of Mursaat.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 5/8/2024 at 12:54 AM, EdwinLi.1284 said:

funny thing about that, if I remember right one of Mabon's notes he made hinted that a group of Mursaat may have not turned evil before the events of their race going Evil happened and decided to separate themselves from the Evil Mursaat and establish a home somewhere in the Mist or Tyria. I forgot which note it was but this does mean there are maybe Mursaat still alive out there just that all Last Mursaat of the Evil Faction are now gone leaving only the Good/Neutral Faction of Mursaat.

I think there were other NPCs commenting on this as well in the original story - that the Tyrian Mursaat might even have been exiles from the beginning. I recall there even being some speculation that they might even be in Nayos, albeit presumably not the part of Nayos dominated by Eparch if so.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think there were other NPCs commenting on this as well in the original story - that the Tyrian Mursaat might even have been exiles from the beginning. I recall there even being some speculation that they might even be in Nayos, albeit presumably not the part of Nayos dominated by Eparch if so.

Those are mentioned, the other NPC besides Mabon being Isgarren:

1. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Strength_of_the_Unseen_(achievement)#Dialogue - comment that mursaat in Tyria were exiles.
2. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Isgarren#Dialogue - dialogue that at least in the past there were mursaat "external Tyria", though leaving it inconclusive if such a group remains.
3. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Journal_(Tower_of_Secrets) - suggesting mursaat came from the Realm of Dreams (aka Nayos).

Not sure why you got a negative emoji reaction when you're right, but there are people who just spam those on the posts of those they dislike for no apparent reason.

[HotDelirium.7984]

On 2/2/2024 at 11:50 AM, mandala.8507 said:

You've got some misconceptions about this, then.

Because Dagda immediately ran off to sequester herself and try to purge her possession, which she only managed to do with the help of Zojja and the Commander after we found her.

Mabon, on the other hand, kept pushing himself to his limit:

• saved us from Nayos 
• used a ton of extra power to save Lyhr after he became possessed while forging the key to unlock the tower, and when we found his other half which was also possessed
• again overexerted himself trying to get the tower under control and calm
• pushed too far even ANOTHER time when he had to help keep Zojja safe while she stood in for Isgarren to unlock the final chamber in the tower so they could reach Amnytas again

He had been using up power and worsening his vulnerability to possession that whole time, as all the wizards had been affected in some way by the initial Kryptis insurgence, but chose to aid in helping save the others and getting to Isgarren quickly instead of ensuring his own safety.

Part of Mabon's character that you discover in the post-expansion lore quests is that he views himself as an innately evil being deserving only of penance, despite the care and forgiveness he is capable of showing others. He made the conscious decision to save others and the world before himself, and so we see in his cutscene in the tower him come to the realization that he is fully compromised. At that point, he flees to seclusion in the Bastion of Strength to be someplace where he won't hurt any of his friends or followers when he falls, while hinting to those who needed to know not to try and save him.

Zojja refuses to accept this, which is why we go to find Mabon anyway, even though the other wizards are pretty confident he can't be saved.

We find out in our battle with the Kryptis who possessed him that his possession was far worse than Dagda's. Not all Kryptis are created equal, and Vanda's hive was likely weaker than Asthenes, who had the backing of Cerus. You could even perhaps say Peitha stepped in to help us with Dagda on her end, as we can hear her interrogating other Kryptis in her world to figure out who exactly it was trying to take Dagda over.

You're also incorrect in saying Dagda is a lower rank Wizard. Her and Mabon are the same rank: Wizard. You could argue that him being older and a Mursaat perhaps make him her senior and likely stronger, but this is never confirmed in the lore. For all we know, Dagda is stronger than Mabon (probably not, but we just don't know).

Was Mabon's death rushed and somewhat anticlimactic? Yes. Did we not get enough time to learn about his character before he died? Also yes. But you're reasoning for why his death wasn't justified is riddled with error.

You are right in describing what was going on but the weight of it wasn't very obvious.

Are we to guess that exerting oneself makes one even more vulnerable? It probably says that somewhere...

This rare Kryptis essence bound ability was pretty OP and not used anywhere else so killing the krptis boss and thus killing mabon felt cheap.

I would have preferred (a call back to the past) Mabon splits himself into aspects nullifying the effect but incapacitating himself maybe for the remainder of the expansion.

[Poormany.4507]

9 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

This rare Kryptis essence bound ability was pretty OP and not used anywhere else so killing the krptis boss and thus killing mabon felt cheap.

Agree with this - Why aren't more Krpytis using this ability? Why didn't they simply use it on Isagarren to get rid of their top enemy, effectively crippling their resistance in one swoop? Why didn't they use it on the commander, who was already exerted/mentally worn out to the brink (i.e., more vulnerable to corruption) at the start of the expac when they were trapped in Nayos with Cerus?

The ability and it's use just wasn't mentioned/explained enough in-game and just felt like a MacGuffin used solely to kill off Mabon.

Edited May 19 by Poormany.4507

[Kalavier.1097]

3 hours ago, Poormany.4507 said:

Agree with this - Why aren't more Krpytis using this ability? Why didn't they simply use it on Isagarren to get rid of their top enemy, effectively crippling their resistance in one swoop? Why didn't they use it on the commander, who was already exerted/mentally worn out to the brink (i.e., more vulnerable to corruption) at the start of the expac when they were trapped in Nayos with Cerus?

The ability and it's use just wasn't mentioned/explained enough in-game and just felt like a MacGuffin used solely to kill off Mabon.

You do know other possessed people die instead of being freed of it right? Mabon is simply the biggest.

Why didn't they use it on Isgarren? Because Cerus was possessing him.

Why didn't they use it on the commander? Well for one thing, they weren't "AT the brink" at the start of the expansion. They were actually recovering from all that stuff post Gyala. And at the time, again, the commander was an unknown to them. Plus you know, Peitha kinda jumped in the commander's head and claimed it. In the one event where a Kryptis tries to possess the Commander she lashes out at them.

 

[HotDelirium.7984]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

You do know other possessed people die instead of being freed of it right? Mabon is simply the biggest.

Why didn't they use it on Isgarren? Because Cerus was possessing him.

Why didn't they use it on the commander? Well for one thing, they weren't "AT the brink" at the start of the expansion. They were actually recovering from all that stuff post Gyala. And at the time, again, the commander was an unknown to them. Plus you know, Peitha kinda jumped in the commander's head and claimed it. In the one event where a Kryptis tries to possess the Commander she lashes out at them.

 

You point to another piece of contention- was Peitha trying to possess us or not and is she stopping or was she tempted for a time with how delicious we were but decided it would be best to not go through with it and use us to save Nayos?

[AliamRationem.5172]

Here's Mabon.  Really great guy and super important to the stor...aaand he's gone.  Yes, sorry, he's gone.  Shame you didn't get a chance to know him.  Zojja really liked him.  Go comfort Zojja, because she really needs a therapist friend.

[mandala.8507]

8 minutes ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

You point to another piece of contention- was Peitha trying to possess us or not and is she stopping or was she tempted for a time with how delicious we were but decided it would be best to not go through with it and use us to save Nayos?

She never really wanted anything from us in that way. She initially helped us escape Cerus to mess with him, but she stuck around because she viewed us as a curiosity. We too were curious about her, and since we weren't sure what the Astral Ward or Wizards' Court would do with us if they knew we were talking to a Kryptis in our head, we played along. Our character knew pretty early on that she wasn't actively trying to possess us. If you play a Sylvari, they remark that this experience was nothing like fending off Mordremoth's influence, and we also were somewhat aware of how this Kryptis mental manipulation works from our experience in Gyala with the Ravenous Wanderer.

Playing back through SotO understanding Peitha and the Kryptis better, you can tell Peitha finds our naivety about her people amusing, as she pokes fun at our concern several times.

[Poormany.4507]

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Why didn't they use it on Isgarren? Because Cerus was possessing him.

Why didn't Cerus use the soul-bind ability then, so if he dies, Isgarren also dies?

Quote

Plus you know, Peitha kinda jumped in the commander's head and claimed it. In the one event where a Kryptis tries to possess the Commander she lashes out at them.

That makes sense, I forgot that Peitha claimed us before the initial fight with Cerus as "Strange Voice."

Edited May 19 by Poormany.4507

[mandala.8507]

Just now, Poormany.4507 said:

Why didn't Cerus use the soul-bind ability then, so if he dies, Isgarren also dies?

Well, the description reads that this ability links their fates together, so if Cerus knew that Eparch was going to eventually kill Isgarren, he doesn't want to die with him.

[EdwinLi.1284]

On 5/18/2024 at 7:00 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Those are mentioned, the other NPC besides Mabon being Isgarren:

1. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Strength_of_the_Unseen_(achievement)#Dialogue - comment that mursaat in Tyria were exiles.
2. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Isgarren#Dialogue - dialogue that at least in the past there were mursaat "external Tyria", though leaving it inconclusive if such a group remains.
3. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Journal_(Tower_of_Secrets) - suggesting mursaat came from the Realm of Dreams (aka Nayos).

Not sure why you got a negative emoji reaction when you're right, but there are people who just spam those on the posts of those they dislike for no apparent reason.

Makes me wonder what did these Mursaat do to make themselves exiles from their society.

Were they too extreme on the Muhahaha evil side of things, did they tap into things they should not have, or were they just criminals within their society exile for break laws?

Guess we may never know since Anet rarely follow up on side plots like this unless they plan for us to find that Mursaat city where all the Good/Neutral Mursaat live these hints keep teasing at later in a future expansion or update storyline. 

Edited May 20 by EdwinLi.1284

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 5/19/2024 at 12:22 AM, HotDelirium.7984 said:

This rare Kryptis essence bound ability was pretty OP and not used anywhere else so killing the krptis boss and thus killing mabon felt cheap.

21 hours ago, Poormany.4507 said:

Agree with this - Why aren't more Krpytis using this ability? Why didn't they simply use it on Isagarren to get rid of their top enemy, effectively crippling their resistance in one swoop? Why didn't they use it on the commander, who was already exerted/mentally worn out to the brink (i.e., more vulnerable to corruption) at the start of the expac when they were trapped in Nayos with Cerus?

The ability and it's use just wasn't mentioned/explained enough in-game and just felt like a MacGuffin used solely to kill off Mabon.

16 hours ago, Poormany.4507 said:

Why didn't Cerus use the soul-bind ability then, so if he dies, Isgarren also dies?

We see at least two others - one in story, one in open world - die due to possession. Off the top of my head, at least. So I wouldn't say it wasn't used anywhere else.

Why wasn't it used on Isgarren? Because Eparch wanted him personally, Cerus wasn't killing him for that very explicit purpose.

Cerus: The champion of an "Elder Dragon." Isgarren's resolve was succulent, but this one has tasted the end.

Peitha: And what do you plan on doing with your new "champion"? Take them to the king?

Cerus: I have not decided. The wizard was Eparch's prize.

Eparch wanted Isgarren. Cerus was not there to kill Isgarren, he was there to capture Isgarren. Hence pulling him into Nayos at the end after weakening and torturing him from lengthy possession.

And Cerus was going to kill the Commander, but because the Commander was in Nayos during their encounters, there was no need to possess the Commander - why waste the effort when the Commander was physically in front of them and unable to fight back properly? After that first encounter, Peitha was in the Commander's mind, protecting them from possession (as seen in one open world event in Amnytas), preventing any other kryptis from doing so to them.

Why didn't they do such on Dagda and Lyhr? Easy answer is that the kryptis sent after them had different abilities - Dagda's possessing kryptis sent an entire kittening horde, many kryptis but also weak kryptis, no powerful kryptis capable of easily killing their possessee. And Lyhr survived because of his splitting ability.

16 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

You point to another piece of contention- was Peitha trying to possess us or not and is she stopping or was she tempted for a time with how delicious we were but decided it would be best to not go through with it and use us to save Nayos?

The answer is: Yes.

Peitha was in a "kind possession" sort of mode, and was watching the Commander to see if they'd be useful. Peitha hints pretty directly at the epilogue of the base expansion that if the Commander proved useless to her wants, she'd have full on possessed and killed them. At least that's how I interpret this exchanged:

<Character name>: Why did you save me?

Peitha: At first, I was simply curious. Cerus was not wrong—you are a...delicacy to us.

Peitha: Cerus also angers so easily; I couldn't miss the opportunity to throw a stone into his pond.

Peitha: But then I saw what you could do—I felt what you had done...

Peitha: We may be born of different rules, but strength recognizes strength.

Peitha: And helping me kill Cerus proved all that I needed.

5 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Makes me wonder what did these Mursaat do to make themselves exiles from their society.

Were they too extreme on the Muhahaha evil side of things, did they tap into things they should not have, or were they just criminals within their society exile for break laws?

Guess we may never know since Anet rarely follow up on side plots like this unless they plan for us to find that Mursaat city where all the Good/Neutral Mursaat live these hints keep teasing at later in a future expansion or update storyline. 

Given the exiled mursaat in question decided the best course of action for survival is genocide and puppeting kingdoms from the shadows, it's not that hard for me to picture why they were exiled.