Would "intelligent" mobs counter power creep?

[Zebulous.2934]

I am told that long ago pve mobs could dodge attacks, cleanse conditions, break out of stun or rooted, and interrupt attacks.  That sounds impressive for Queensdale bandits.  Further it seems that these pve mobs were too difficult to fight.  With so many complaints about power creep, are enemies with utility skills and ability still too difficult for most players?
Perhaps expansion critters could regain this lost fighting ability?  I suppose not all pve enemies should learn how to fight.  Pocket raptors that can dodge or gain flanking bonuses sound truly difficult.  I guess the core map mobs would have to remain lobotomized for the sake of new players, poor Queensdale bandits.

If you would improve pve mob fighting ability how would you do so?  What regions and expansions should have more intelligent mobs?

Edited February 1 by Zebulous.2934
hit enter key while writing the title

[DanAlcedo.3281]

So you basically want to give normal mobs more mechanics.

Question: How do you counter mechanics? 

Answer: You kill the mob before the mechanic becomes the problem. 

 

So, what would really happen is that the average player would struggle alot more while the good player won't care. 

[Nylarx.9671]

I am currently playing GW1 (just to get achievements in GW2). The mobs there are intelligent - they will instantly interrupt you if you start casting a spell, move out of AOE, will heal up constantly and will even revive their allies if they have those skills available.

After playing for a week or so the only thing I can say is that fighting intelligent mobs is miserable and disheartening. 

[Cyninja.2954]

23 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

So, what would really happen is that the average player would struggle alot more while the good player won't care. 

This.

Well until the point where no player can deal with the NPC. What many seem to not realize: there are already options to make ai controlled characters near unkillable, without a lot of ai at that.

Input readout possibilities alone mean a NPC could perfectly react to anything a player throws at them.

Simply put though: yes, better ai would be a solution to power creep, and it would start at the bottom skill level and move up the ladder.

Good game development in todays age is about crafting interesting and fun challenges, of which ai sure can be a part. 

[Zebulous.2934]

22 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

So you basically want to give normal mobs more mechanics.

Question: How do you counter mechanics? 

Answer: You kill the mob before the mechanic becomes the problem. 

 

So, what would really happen is that the average player would struggle alot more while the good player won't care. 

veteran an champion critters could also benefit from being able to dodge or walk out of aoe.  Killing a single mob before it becomes a problem is preferred, though they usually spawn in groups.  Preferably the player would have to prioritize certain mobs in a group.  A condition build and a power build may prioritize different critters depending upon what support skills those critters use. 

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

This.

Well until the point where no player can deal with the NPC. What many seem to not realize: there are already options to make ai controlled characters near unkillable, without a lot of ai at that.

Input readout possibilities alone mean a NPC could perfectly react to anything a player throws at them.

Simply put though: yes, better ai would be a solution to power creep, and it would start at the bottom skill level and move up the ladder.

Good game development in todays age is about crafting interesting and fun challenges, of which ai sure can be a part. 

Okay Psycho Mantis, I see your point😜

[Zebulous.2934]

6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

This.

Well until the point where no player can deal with the NPC. What many seem to not realize: there are already options to make ai controlled characters near unkillable, without a lot of ai at that.

Input readout possibilities alone mean a NPC could perfectly react to anything a player throws at them.

Simply put though: yes, better ai would be a solution to power creep, and it would start at the bottom skill level and move up the ladder.

Good game development in todays age is about crafting interesting and fun challenges, of which ai sure can be a part. 

I would think that Mob abilities could have cooldowns.  Since the mobs are not actually intelligent a player could bait out an enemy ability and then take advantage of the cooldown timer.

[kiroho.4738]

55 minutes ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

I am told that long ago pve mobs could dodge attacks, cleanse conditions, break out of stun or rooted, and interrupt attacks.

I personally can't remember this being a thing that actively got removed.

What I remember was that mobs ran out of AoEs. This got removes eventually to gain a better combat flow.

As for your question, I don't think it will help much. Only blocking and dodging would cause them to live longer and well, look and griffons and harpy mobs. They are hated for doing dodges. The only thing that helps agains power creep is more HP.

 

30 minutes ago, Nylarx.9671 said:

After playing for a week or so the only thing I can say is that fighting intelligent mobs is miserable and disheartening. 

I mean, Mobs in GW1 aren't that intelligent. You can even stop them from doing anything entirely just by spamming AoE fields. They are so busy moving out of them that they won't attack anymore.

Aside from that, yes some areas actually require you to play against different tactics/builds, which is simply how the combat works.
Use the wrong build/team and you have hard times, use the right build and team and you cut through everything like butter while being afk. But that haven't really much to do with intelligent mobs.

[Zebulous.2934]

It kinda sounds like "combat flow" fosters power creep.  Things live longer if they don't stand in fire and can deflect or dodge attacks. 
The solution to power creep, while maintaining combat flow, is to turn enemies into durable statues? 
Sure, it is awkward for critters to run around and do things, but it makes player skills and timing more relevant.  Aren't the people who are complaining about power creep saying that combat is too simple?  Just maintain buffs, auto attack, and try not to get hit?

Edited February 1 by Zebulous.2934
some grammar

[DanAlcedo.3281]

23 minutes ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

veteran an champion critters could also benefit from being able to dodge or walk out of aoe.  Killing a single mob before it becomes a problem is preferred, though they usually spawn in groups.  Preferably the player would have to prioritize certain mobs in a group.  A condition build and a power build may prioritize different critters depending upon what support skills those critters use. 

Now the question becomes:

Why would I fight them? Let's say in Openworld. 

Most trash mobs can be skipped. Most events are not worth anyone's time. 

So, we buff the rewards too? 

[Gazrul.3086]

I don't think many people would want the return of HoT launch difficulty of mobs. 

[Zebulous.2934]

19 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Now the question becomes:

Why would I fight them? Let's say in Openworld. 

Most trash mobs can be skipped. Most events are not worth anyone's time. 

So, we buff the rewards too? 

No, I have no interest in answering that question in this thread.  Feel free to start your own thread about how Anet should incentivize pve combat.  I have read plenty of  complaints on that topic and those threads didn't even discuss power creep

[Astralporing.1957]

58 minutes ago, kiroho.4738 said:

I personally can't remember this being a thing that actively got removed.

What I remember was that mobs ran out of AoEs. This got removes eventually to gain a better combat flow.

Some things were removed back in early testing stages. Even during open betas mobs were initially smarter and were eventually dumbed down.

The original list included far more than just moving away from AoEs. It also included dodging (from what we heard - that one already wasn't present in the open betas), as well as some other abilities taken from GW1 mob AI. For example, group coordination (like the ability to group spike players with lower health). I kind of remember mobs targetting players that were trying to ress others as well (although it was long ago, so i might be misremembering things).

From what we were told, the original AI was way, way too much, which says a lot seeing as even the already partially reduced one in open betas was enough to massacre large groups of players (and had to be cut down even further).

Notice, that even after game's launch ther were several cases of mobs getting their behaviour adjusted. This happened to initial Mordrem in silverwastes, for example (and later to Mordrem in Heart of Maguuma - the ones in HoT Beta Event were smarter than the one on expac launch).

And yes, this factor of the game was intentionally dumbed down, because otherwise it would have lost most of its population. The top tier players would have managed, but the low to average ones would have just quit.

Challenge is fine, but you do need to adjust its level to your players, because the opposite - players adjusting to the challenge - almost never happens. Some think they do that, but that's because their personal challenge threshold is set above what developers put into the game. And since everyone has a different idea of what constitutes a challenge, increasing difficulty level all across the board (which raising mob AI would do) would just, like someone mentioned, affect weaker players far more than the stronger ones. So, basically we'd be achieving the effect that would be exact opposite of what we'd wanted.

Notice btw, that even that last one is not so clearcut. Just look at how raid/strike bosses have their AI reduced even more compared to the already dumb OW mobs. There's a reason for that too.

Edited February 1 by Astralporing.1957

[Zebulous.2934]

For that matter the mobs could have horrible versions of current skills.  Short duration, long cooldowns, ect.  Just being able to use some of the effects that we can use could increase the difficulty just enough.  Like giving an amature carpenter a set of stone tools to work with.  The bad skills would have to be balanced so that they weren't irrelevant.

[jason.1083]

2 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

So you basically want to give normal mobs more mechanics.

Question: How do you counter mechanics? 

Answer: You kill the mob before the mechanic becomes the problem. 

 

So, what would really happen is that the average player would struggle alot more while the good player won't care. 

Thing is, a mob has an important advantage over the player, and that's the knowledge of the skills you're pressing and your setup.

When going up against a player they won't know your equipped skills nor what skills your casting unless they have an obvious animation. A mob has all that info if the devs allow it.

It's like AI players in strategy games when they cheat and disregard the "fog of war" mechanic and look at your stuff.

So it will definitely have some effect, especially when you're up against multiple enemies that can do everything a player can, like dodge, heal, apply/strip boons/conditions etc.

And I believe that the best thing to add in this regard is to make all and every enemy target the player that's the biggest threat, and that includes raid/strike bosses. Thus the highest Dps will always be focused by all enemies. Makes sense Imo.

Edited February 1 by jason.1083

[DanAlcedo.3281]

20 minutes ago, jason.1083 said:

Thing is, a mob has an important advantage over the player, and that's the knowledge of the skills you're pressing and your setup.

When going up against a player they won't know your equipped skills nor what skills your casting unless they have an obvious animation. A mob has all that info if the devs allow it.

It's like AI players in strategy games when they cheat and disregard the "fog of war" mechanic and look at your stuff.

So it will definitely have some effect, especially when you're up against multiple enemies that can do everything a player can, like dodge, heal, apply/strip boons/conditions etc.

And I believe that the best thing to add in this regard is to make all and every enemy target the player that's the biggest threat, and that includes raid/strike bosses. Thus the highest Dps will always be focused by all enemies. Makes sense Imo.

I just question what's the point of all that? 

Making the 90% have a harder time who already struggle? While the 10% could not give a duck? 

If I can't outdps the problem, the next solution it to cheese it. If that doesn't work, ignore it. 

Its only the casual that would ever engage in a fair fight against npcs. 

 

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

1 hour ago, kiroho.4738 said:

As for your question, I don't think it will help much. Only blocking and dodging would cause them to live longer and well, look and griffons and harpy mobs. They are hated for doing dodges. The only thing that helps agains power creep is more HP.

Griffons and Harpies don't have dodges, only abominably long evasion frames if not flat out self removal from the map to pop back up after a century has passed.
The problem here is their insane durations and for the latter - a mechanic with no counterplay other than to kill it fast before it uses it's escape.

When was the last time you heard people complaining about mobs having blocks?
That's because these are usually implemented fairly and there are mechanics to break/bypass them (unblockable).

Edited February 1 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Cyninja.2954]

For anyone interested in seeing where we were AI wise 5 years ago, watch some videos on Alphastar, an AI developed by Googles Deepmind team for Starcraft 2.

For anyone wanting the tl;dr: the AI basically become so good, it was unbeatable by human players. This was 5 years ago.

Want something less games industry related? Watch some videos on chess AIs. Again, the highest human ELO rating attained was 2,882 by Magnus Carlsen. The highest AI rating was 3,581 (in 2021) and climbing. Here is a recent artikle on this: https://aibard.online/ai-vs-human-chess-elo-ratings/

So just to make this VERY clear. When it comes to computers and programming, AI will destroy ANY human player, if so designed. The question thus becomes: how sophisticated should the enemy behavior patterns be (and usually this has little to nothing to do with actual AI), and the answer to that remains: so far that it is entertaining to players.

EDIT: personally some of the coolest fights or encounters in games for me have been mirror fights (ascending in GW1 where you fight an AI copy of yourself, the mimic tear boss in Elden Ring, etc.). Then again, those fights could always be exploited (equipping skills which the NPC was not able to use, etc.) to not become obstacles for players.

Edited February 1 by Cyninja.2954

[jason.1083]

30 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I just question what's the point of all that? 

Making the 90% have a harder time who already struggle? While the 10% could not give a duck? 

If I can't outdps the problem, the next solution it to cheese it. If that doesn't work, ignore it. 

Its only the casual that would ever engage in a fair fight against npcs. 

 

The point of this thread was to counter power creep, and this is one way, but as I said I think out of all that the best and simplest thing to do is make mobs always prioritize the player that does the most dps and they can get their hands on, thus forcing said player to cut down on dps and play defensively until someone else exceeds their output. 

The rest I mentioned was to drive the point that adding such mechanics to mobs would dramatically increase their potential against players and it would be interesting to see this kind of thing as a difficulty tier in instanced content, instead of just increasing stats we could have smarter enemies.

[Zzik.5873]

1 hour ago, Chronardis.4028 said:

I don't think many people would want the return of HoT launch difficulty of mobs. 

I dont get why people prefer boring combat over challenging one. That sad in my opinion... gw2 pve combat have gone from good to lame.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

7 minutes ago, jason.1083 said:

The point of this thread was to counter power creep, and this is one way, but as I said I think out of all that the best and simplest thing to do is make mobs always prioritize the player that does the most dps and they can get their hands on, thus forcing said player to cut down on dps and play defensively until someone else exceeds their output. 

The rest I mentioned was to drive the point that adding such mechanics to mobs would dramatically increase their potential against players and it would be interesting to see this kind of thing as a difficulty tier in instanced content, instead of just increasing stats we could have smarter enemies.

Sooooo we can control the Npc Ai via dps? 

Perfect! That makes stuff even easier! 

Good idea to give us the ability to freely control the Ai. 

[Zebulous.2934]

4 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

For anyone interested in seeing where we were AI wise 5 years ago, watch some videos on Alphastar, an AI developed by Googles Deepmind team for Starcraft 2.

For anyone wanting the tl;dr: the AI basically become so good, it was unbeatable by human players. This was 5 years ago.

Want something less games industry related? Watch some videos on chess AIs. Again, the highest human ELO rating attained was 2,882 by Magnus Carlsen. The highest AI rating was 3,581 (in 2021) and climbing. Here is a recent artikle on this: https://aibard.online/ai-vs-human-chess-elo-ratings/

So just to make this VERY clear. When it comes to computers and programming, AI will destroy ANY human player, if so designed. The question thus becomes: how sophisticated should the enemy behavior patterns be (and usually this has little to nothing to do with actual AI), and the answer to that remains: so far that it is entertaining to players.

I did suggest giving the mobs substandard versions of skills.  Anet doesn't have to go crazy with the AI, if the AI must read inputs then the response it uses can be weakened to compensate.

  There should probably be support critters among the dps mobs. Such supports should avoid the player.  A mob that won't attack or at most uses non damaging conditions would be at a steep disadvantage.  Then the player has to decide which to kill kill first the supports or the dps.

[bq pd.2148]

optional challenges like champ/legendary that were designed as group content could have a downscale for solo, with lower stats (less HP sponge) but more reactive play patterns.

i don't think regular OW mobs are a good target for such changes. by the time an intelligent mob becomes a challenge to an experienced player with a coherent build, it would be impossible for newer, less experienced players with questionable builds and OW is not where you would want to filter them out as that is kind of the entry level of difficulty.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

6 hours ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

I am told that long ago pve mobs could dodge attacks, cleanse conditions, break out of stun or rooted, and interrupt attacks.  That sounds impressive for Queensdale bandits.  Further it seems that these pve mobs were too difficult to fight.  With so many complaints about power creep, are enemies with utility skills and ability still too difficult for most players?
Perhaps expansion critters could regain this lost fighting ability?  I suppose not all pve enemies should learn how to fight.  Pocket raptors that can dodge or gain flanking bonuses sound truly difficult.  I guess the core map mobs would have to remain lobotomized for the sake of new players, poor Queensdale bandits.

If you would improve pve mob fighting ability how would you do so?  What regions and expansions should have more intelligent mobs?

The problem with "intelligent" enemies is that it can just be annoying.  Cleansing conditions, for example.  It would be smart of enemies to cleanse if they have the ability.  But if every trash mob can cleanse conditions, then condition damage becomes even less effective when it's already at a disadvantage for clearing trash mobs.

Dodging attacks would also be a smart behavior.  But now you have to go through the same dance with every trash mob, baiting out its dodges before you can kill it.

Immobilizing melee attackers.  How great would it be to get constantly spammed with immobilize by the endless stream of trash mobs you face in open world?  Hope you like ranged combat only, because melee just ain't worth it!

A better way, in my opinion, is the HoT model.  You're usually faced with a mix of enemies.  There's nothing intelligent about their behavior, but they can force the player to intelligently approach the encounter with the various threats they present.

[Baddxian.3851]

Instead of making them smarter, how about just speeding up the mobs' attack speeds?  You've seen them fight one another (attack, wait, wait, wait, wait, attack again, wait, wait, wait.)  Just remove a wait or two and hey presto! a slightly more challenging mob...