Vindicator is Revenant on training wheels and something needs to be done.

[Shagie.7612]

i dunno if they'll ever make additional elite specs again but maybe vindicator is the final hint they need that dodge should stay a standardized feature.

as cool as the themes of vindi, mirage, and daredevil can be, they've been extremely troublesome each time

heck you could extend that to the dodge roll traits on engi and war too tbh

Edited February 17 by Shagie.7612

[Shao.7236]

8 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

i dunno if they'll ever make additional elite specs again but maybe vindicator is the final hint they need that dodge should stay a standardized feature.

as cool as the themes of vindi, mirage, and daredevil can be, they've been extremely troublesome each time

heck you could extend that to the dodge roll traits on engi and war too tbh

That I always end up with, any dodge changes are always horrible. Dodges should always be the same for everyone and any changes should just be an ability tied to F keys or mechanics added around gameplay.

[MatyrGustav.6210]

On 2/16/2024 at 4:17 PM, Shao.7236 said:

Any competent players are unkillable in 1v1 because the spec is bloated with 2 evades as it was designed to only have 1 at once.

Consider reverting back the idea to 1 evade that simply costs less (50), act just as quick (current speeds) and if the past nerfs to vigor are too rough to this revert them to accomodate.

People can use GS outside of Vindicator. There's no excuse anymore, there's no appeal to use any other legend than alliances when using the elite either, others do.

I'm sick of being forced to play it because it's literally just better than "all" options due to power creep.

I kind of agree, I was feeling the same way. The Spec has basically 2 legends  in 1. It has more utility, than the other legends especially since using 1 utility skill doesn't effect the cooldown on the other Vindicator stance. 

As far as evades go, i think 2 is ideal since choosing the spec doesn't necessarily mean you'll have the Alliance Stance equipped. 

Edited February 18 by MatyrGustav.6210

[Wolf.1972]

On 2/16/2024 at 1:17 PM, Shao.7236 said:

Any competent players are unkillable in 1v1 because the spec is bloated with 2 evades as it was designed to only have 1 at once.

Consider reverting back the idea to 1 evade that simply costs less (50), act just as quick (current speeds) and if the past nerfs to vigor are too rough to this revert them to accomodate.

People can use GS outside of Vindicator. There's no excuse anymore, there's no appeal to use any other legend than alliances when using the elite either, others do.

I'm sick of being forced to play it because it's literally just better than "all" options due to power creep.

I know exactly who you are based on this post lol. You got really annoyed with me in FFA 🤣 Anyways, the issue with nerfing vindicator is that currently in my opinion it's the only way to play power Rev, and without it we wouldn't have a viable power build in this meta because herald isn't cutting it. Maybe the new renegade changes will change that. But in all honesty vindicator is strong, but I don't think it's overpowered at all. Perhaps certain mechanics on it can be, but then for every one thing you might find OP on a vindicator there's three more on any other class 😅 sooo... Basically they would have to bring up all other Rev specs to vindicator standards. That's the only answer. Not destroying vindicator. 

[Wolf.1972]

On 2/16/2024 at 2:24 PM, Sereath.1428 said:

Some of you people keep comparing Vindicator to just Core, Herald and Renegade. When you should be putting it against every single other spec.
What an unhinged way to think, wanting to bring down the only decent spec revenant has for competitive game modes.

Vindicator has not won a single MAT in over a year and you are still ranting about it.
And before vindicator you did the very same with Herald. 💀

This is exactly the point I was trying to make to so many people in the game.. I think they just don't understand.. because they see a revenant kitten them up and instantly. It just means it's overpowered

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, Wolf.1972 said:

I know exactly who you are based on this post lol. You got really annoyed with me in FFA 🤣 Anyways, the issue with nerfing vindicator is that currently in my opinion it's the only way to play power Rev, and without it we wouldn't have a viable power build in this meta because herald isn't cutting it. Maybe the new renegade changes will change that. But in all honesty vindicator is strong, but I don't think it's overpowered at all. Perhaps certain mechanics on it can be, but then for every one thing you might find OP on a vindicator there's three more on any other class 😅 sooo... Basically they would have to bring up all other Rev specs to vindicator standards. That's the only answer. Not destroying vindicator. 

Did you even check the time stamps? I made this post before I even encountered you while I was theory crafting something that could even come close to what old damage was.

I got really annoyed because you're built the same way people are, doesn't matter how many times you get punished because the spec has so much forgiving elements so long you don't mess up enough times, you'll always surpass anything in the game, if someone is pure damage and outplaying you you'll always win because you can get away with anything while still dealing enough damage, this is too remiscent of old druid or scrapper before PoF which sucked hard.

Things like Holosmith might have really cringe instant damage but at least they're killable, Virtuoso has the same problem where they can have enough sustain yet their damage is extremely forced because every single burst shatter they have is allowed to be unblockable despite the ICD.

It's boring effortless gameplay..

 

[Yasai.3549]

Knowing Anet, they're gonna straight up nerf Alliance down the road by upping the Energy costs to ridiculous levels.

Part of the problem of Alliance is that the skills are hella spammable for really strong effect, which makes it the defacto strongest stance because the other stances have been nerfed repeatedly in the past. 

But nerfing isn't always the answer either because look at the absolute state of core Legends which are almost always in shambles due to the constant nerfing. What was meant to be powerful utilities that you can use with short cooldown but with high cost became high cost with high cooldown in certain modes. Like, I just stopped playing PvP entirely after Shiro and Charged Mist nerfs because all I knew how to play was Core. 

Vindicator could use a balancing mechanic for its own two Alliance legends but nerfs are not the answer and never the answer. Either force the players to manage their Alliances better or limit the amount of time spent in Alliance.

I for one think Alliance stance would have been kinda fun if the skills remained flip skills. Then if you really wanted to "main" one or the other as a DPS or Support, you picked Death Drop so that it will never flipped over to Saint or Saint if so that it never flipped over to Archemorus.

As for the overpowered discussion... Willbender, I rest my case.

Edited February 19 by Yasai.3549

[Shagie.7612]

36 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Knowing Anet, they're gonna straight up nerf Alliance down the road by upping the Energy costs to ridiculous levels.

36 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

nerfs are not the answer and never the answer.

i mean, at some point you're gonna run out of other available options in order to bring core, herald, rene, and vindi closer together

the simple fact that it has more skills available to it is already limiting just how many changes you can make
you can't make them all do (essentially) nothing, and you can't just load infinity effects into any individual skill or trait for the other legends/elites

power creep has painted them into a corner

[arazoth.7290]

20 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

i mean, at some point you're gonna run out of other available options in order to bring core, herald, rene, and vindi closer together

the simple fact that it has more skills available to it is already limiting just how many changes you can make
you can't make them all do (essentially) nothing, and you can't just load infinity effects into any individual skill or trait for the other legends/elites

power creep has painted them into a corner

yes make vindicator so good as useless too so they can hug each other giving mental support what things have become.

 

[Yasai.3549]

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

i mean, at some point you're gonna run out of other available options in order to bring core, herald, rene, and vindi closer together

Big disagree tbh, there are things they can do for Revenant in general that they aren't doing.

For one, why do Revenants have to slot an Elite Spec to access a new Legend? That's like demanding Rangers to be an Espec in order to use that expansion's Pets. Imagine needing to be Druid to use Smokescale and be Soulbeast to use Iboga. That's one of the things for Revenant that always felt weird and just plain unfair. Once we have this, we can start looking at each Spec and seeing what justifies them being a spec. Herald without Glint exclusivity is rather flaccid. Renegade actually brings something to the table because they often don't even need to use Kalla to define themselves. Vindicator has unique dodges already which isn't defined by Alliance. 

So the only two things left needing to be "brought in line" are Herald and Core, which need to be brought up, at least a little. 

What Core could use to define itself further is a "Reinvoke" mechanic on F3 which shares a cooldown with Legend Swap F1 where the player can choose to reinvoke the current Legend as if they're swapping into the same Legend again. 

What Herald could use to define itself further is an additional F3 which wraps up the Herald's theme of being a champion of Glint, something more related to Glint's self sacrificing personality. Idk how people would feel but I think if the current Crystal Hibernation was beefed up and turned into an F3 while Shield gained a new slot 5 skills, it would be a rather fitting change. 

[Angesombre.4630]

If you look in less than a year, small nerf herald, nerf GS, nerf axe, nerf mass, rework renegat, nerf vindicator several times, nerf ventari. I'm beginning to think that's a lot. For a small modification of the shield and hammer. So yes, I don't know what it will do for the renegat.

On the other hand always more bug.

Edited February 19 by Angesombre.4630

[Angesombre.4630]

I'm not going to forget that the revenant has the weakest GS and one of the weakest double swords too.

[Yasai.3549]

3 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

I'm not going to forget that the revenant has the weakest GS and one of the weakest double swords too.

Release GS was in a good spot. Then they nerfed it. Amazing really. 

Sword's pretty much discussed to death. Between nerfing damage, upping cooldowns, changing Precision Strike and #FOREVERBUGGED SWORD 3, it's just a bad weapon set as well. 

[Wolf.1972]

20 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Did you even check the time stamps? I made this post before I even encountered you while I was theory crafting something that could even come close to what old damage was.

I got really annoyed because you're built the same way people are, doesn't matter how many times you get punished because the spec has so much forgiving elements so long you don't mess up enough times, you'll always surpass anything in the game, if someone is pure damage and outplaying you you'll always win because you can get away with anything while still dealing enough damage, this is too remiscent of old druid or scrapper before PoF which sucked hard.

Things like Holosmith might have really cringe instant damage but at least they're killable, Virtuoso has the same problem where they can have enough sustain yet their damage is extremely forced because every single burst shatter they have is allowed to be unblockable despite the ICD.

It's boring effortless gameplay..

 

I guess your misunderstanding. I knew exactly who you were based on how you were talking because we've met before this... 

[Shao.7236]

On 2/19/2024 at 10:06 AM, Wolf.1972 said:

I guess your misunderstanding. I knew exactly who you were based on how you were talking because we've met before this... 

Whether it was you or not, that was before this post anyway, sorry for the false accusation in that case.

[StraightPath.3972]

I played me some renegade on spvp due to lege backpack requirements (3 different professions achis).

It was just gut wrenching experience. Lord have mercy on your soul if anyone jumps on top of you,
cause neither the team nor your own kit will..
Shiro's escape being 40 energy is just plain murder..

[Seis.4736]

I main thief before it got gutted out nerf after nerf. It started to feel like "why am I playing thief?" gameplay. Switched to Rev and it felt unique back then but now it is also starting to feel like it is losing its identity/uniqueness.

• I think they should just remove the cd from switching between Alliances and make the skills share cooldown.
• Tie all 'on legend swap' and alliance swap effect on an icd (9s)
• Keep the 2 dodges but add an icd to the 3 dodge types to discourage dodge spamming. Maybe make the Vindi dodge normally when in icd.
• To add flavor, maybe change the dodge animation for each dodge type. Spinning ele animation (i think on water, not sure) for the heal, daredevil bound to the dmg dodge, etc

[Tora.7214]

instead of nerfing whats performing well why instead not buff what's underperforming to its level so people can just play the elite gameplay they enjoy most?

Edited March 1 by Tora.7214

[Angesombre.4630]

I agree with you.
We keep repeating it, except that it's not Anet's opinion. They prefer to nerf what's good, to bring back what's bad. And nerf the old content to implant new content, even if it's bad.

Edited March 1 by Angesombre.4630

[Shagie.7612]

Consider this:

They've nerfed specs like Vindicator, Catalyst, or Untamed a billion times, and all of them still have just way more options and answers available to them than what's at the current bottom of the totem pole.
How much more can you do? What more knobs and dials do you have to fool around with?

How do you "buff the others up" without just slapping 30 more lines of text on each button of the others to the point where a facet or citadel order/ghost ends up doing damage, defense, mobility, control and whatever else all at once.
What niche are you going to carve out, that has to be solely through the elite traits, that the specs that are just Class+ (elites are all power creeped in general but some are much closer to an improved base class than others, like the above mentioned) won't be superior to?

It probably won't happen because the big Feb 2020 patch was a nightmare and I don't think it can be done in a decent way anymore, but if they were to ever actually attempt to redesign elites so each had some sort of specialty or role, Vindicator would take massive nerfs.

Edited March 1 by Shagie.7612

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

On 2/16/2024 at 3:17 PM, Shao.7236 said:

Any competent players are unkillable in 1v1 because the spec is bloated with 2 evades as it was designed to only have 1 at once.

Consider reverting back the idea to 1 evade that simply costs less (50), act just as quick (current speeds) and if the past nerfs to vigor are too rough to this revert them to accomodate.

People can use GS outside of Vindicator. There's no excuse anymore, there's no appeal to use any other legend than alliances when using the elite either, others do.

I'm sick of being forced to play it because it's literally just better than "all" options due to power creep.

There's so much wrong with this and sadly myopic view demonstrates that this is tunnel vision thought, never mind the fact that an uno reverse can be used on this since any competent player can kill a "dodge spammy" vindy as well, espeically since vindy is not the only spec that can just pump out evades second nature. This entire point sounds like a behind the keyboard issue nothing else in the end. 

Edited March 1 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[Angesombre.4630]

I really like the fact that the vindicator was given a hard time for 1 or 2 k too much damage, while during the beta the thief was above it and now with 54K on the golem.

At least with the sceptre we shouldn't have any problems (sarcasm), unless like the vindicator it nerfs more and more.

Edited March 3 by Angesombre.4630

[Shao.7236]

On 3/1/2024 at 10:12 AM, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

There's so much wrong with this and sadly myopic view demonstrates that this is tunnel vision thought, never mind the fact that an uno reverse can be used on this since any competent player can kill a "dodge spammy" vindy as well, espeically since vindy is not the only spec that can just pump out evades second nature. This entire point sounds like a behind the keyboard issue nothing else in the end. 

This is the Revenant section, nobody ever said evade spam.

You have to be really dishonest to act like Vindicator is not bloated unreasonably compared everything else.

On 2/29/2024 at 9:31 PM, Tora.7214 said:

instead of nerfing whats performing well why instead not buff what's underperforming to its level so people can just play the elite gameplay they enjoy most?

K buff core.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

This is the Revenant section, nobody ever said evade spam.

You have to be really dishonest to act like Vindicator is not bloated unreasonably compared everything else.

K buff core.

Yea, you are being dishonest. The fact you even try to mince words and move goal posts is demonstrating that.

Edited March 5 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[Buran.3796]

4 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

This is the Revenant section, nobody ever said evade spam.

You have to be really dishonest to act like Vindicator is not bloated unreasonably compared everything else.

   See, I think that I finally agree with you here.

   Lets further nerf Vindicator to the core Revenant level, so we ensure that no one will ever play this profession in a MAT again.

 

   That will put us and potential Rev players of the future in the place we deserve: away from that putrid game mode which died long time ago and which carcass has been distracting too many of us with its stench.  Save us time and regret.

   ANET NERF VINDICATOR!!!