The amount of filler content in story is out of hand

[Vayne.8563]

6 hours ago, Andur.9275 said:

Don't get me wrong, I don't need a green star to guide me, I came from oldschool RPGs as well. I do like games which are based on free exploration and I really like the way the open world content is designed in GW2. Yet there is too luch filler content in between the story parts for my taste.

The introduction of masteries confused me, true. All of a sudden, I had to switch my state of mind from "go follow the star" to "go and do whatever comes across your way" and it wasn't properly explained, imo.

The filler content isn't for people like me and you, as we'd explore the game anyway. Even hearts weren't supposed to be in this game. They weren't in the first two betas. They appeared in the third.

At the time a dev said that they were added because people were running past events, and not participating. And devs asked why they weren't participating in events and they said, I didn't have a quest to do it. People didn't get it. They had to add hearts to teach people to stay in areas where events spawns. For some people, it became content and people asked for more hearts.

If you look at the original game, we had hearts in the core game right up to the 3 Orr zones, which have none and were end game content. Then zones were added. Southsun, Dry Top and Silverwastes had no hearts. None of the four HoT zones had hearts.  Bloodstone Fen has no hearts. And then hearts were back, because players asked for hearts.

But Hearts were only added because people didn't play if they didn't have marks on the map. That never really changed. Give a guy a star and most people will ignore everything but the star. Since I plan on doing all the content in a zone anyway, those bars barely affect my game at all, because I'll always do enough to fill them just exploring. 

We never really went from star to star, because we almost always had to get a level or two to get to the next one. Then they changed the story to every 10 levels. It wasn't an accident. They want people to understand the open world is the story.  But people are dense, and they need marks on the map. Something to tell them what to do. Filling bars isn't for me, since I play that content normally. It's for the people who do run star to star, which is, in my opinion, most players.

[Randulf.7614]

2 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

The filler content isn't for people like me and you, as we'd explore the game anyway. Even hearts weren't supposed to be in this game. They weren't in the first two betas. They appeared in the third.

At the time a dev said that they were added because people were running past events, and not participating. And devs asked why they weren't participating in events and they said, I didn't have a quest to do it. People didn't get it. They had to add hearts to teach people to stay in areas where events spawns. For some people, it became content and people asked for more hearts.

If you look at the original game, we had hearts in the core game right up to the 3 Orr zones, which have none and were end game content. Then zones were added. Southsun, Dry Top and Silverwastes had no hearts. None of the four HoT zones had hearts.  Bloodstone Fen has no hearts. And then hearts were back, because players asked for hearts.

But Hearts were only added because people didn't play if they didn't have marks on the map. That never really changed. Give a guy a star and most people will ignore everything but the star. Since I plan on doing all the content in a zone anyway, those bars barely affect my game at all, because I'll always do enough to fill them just exploring. 

We never really went from star to star, because we almost always had to get a level or two to get to the next one. Then they changed the story to every 10 levels. It wasn't an accident. They want people to understand the open world is the story.  But people are dense, and they need marks on the map. Something to tell them what to do. Filling bars isn't for me, since I play that content normally. It's for the people who do run star to star, which is, in my opinion, most players.

That’s a correct history of the original hearts, but they weren’t just requested to return as a guide to stop people running straight to the star. I never treated them that way and I’m an explorer type player - I did all the content too and hearts enhanced the experience. They were brought back for other reasons.

What many of us wanted - and what hearts evolved into - was a way to combine variety of extra content with storytelling and lore which help better segregate maps into themed regions. PoF does this superbly well and EoD to some extent too. They also allowed for unique vendor items. Hearts are more than just filling a bar, they do a fair amount of heavy lifting when used correctly  (they wouldn’t work in Drizzlewood for example or Dragon Stand or Silverwastes). I’m on the fence with Nayos. It’s a map that doesn’t know what it wants to be, so hearts could be good or bad here. Either way, it’s too late to find out.
 

Unfortunately, players like me are the minority and more and more players just want to rush through. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be added though for future maps. GW2 is at its best when it casts its net  widely

 

 

[Ashen.2907]

I think that there is a significant distinction between hearts, optional content available for those who desire a touch more lore and engagement with the wider world in between story elements, and being required to complete events in the open world in order to be allowed to continue the main story.

I do not mind being asked to help out defending, attacking, etc while elements of the story percolate behind the scenes...but it can be overdone. Note that the OP's title references, "the amount of filler comtent," not that filler content exists at all.

Edited March 9 by Ashen.2907

[Gehenna.3625]

16 hours ago, Leger.3724 said:

Don't worry about it bro, they got ~3K unique viewers on Twitch for a brand new CM strike, LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

What happened to Arena Net being innovative? Why copy a failing strategy?

 

But is it a failing strategy? Sure, some people don't care for the new content being less than innovative, but then again, it might still be working for most players.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

But is it a failing strategy? Sure, some people don't care for the new content being less than innovative, but then again, it might still be working for most players.

"most players" vs "~3k unique views". I believe that's what the laugh was at.

[Trejgon.9367]

11 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

"most players" vs "~3k unique views". I believe that's what the laugh was at.

Most MMO players don't watch twitch tho

[Astralporing.1957]

36 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Most MMO players don't watch twitch tho

Yes, isn't that the very point? And for a game like GW2, with the playerbase being farmore casual (and far less likely to watch sites like twitch for their game content kick) it's even more so.

Basically, those small (because, let's be honest, they are small) Twitch numbers are pretty much inconsequential.

[Trejgon.9367]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, isn't that the very point? And for a game like GW2, with the playerbase being farmore casual (and far less likely to watch sites like twitch for their game content kick) it's even more so.

Basically, those small (because, let's be honest, they are small) Twitch numbers are pretty much inconsequential.

Yeah I am now mildly confused on the original comment and what we talking in here like at all.

[Vayne.8563]

19 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

That’s a correct history of the original hearts, but they weren’t just requested to return as a guide to stop people running straight to the star. I never treated them that way and I’m an explorer type player - I did all the content too and hearts enhanced the experience. They were brought back for other reasons.

What many of us wanted - and what hearts evolved into - was a way to combine variety of extra content with storytelling and lore which help better segregate maps into themed regions. PoF does this superbly well and EoD to some extent too. They also allowed for unique vendor items. Hearts are more than just filling a bar, they do a fair amount of heavy lifting when used correctly  (they wouldn’t work in Drizzlewood for example or Dragon Stand or Silverwastes). I’m on the fence with Nayos. It’s a map that doesn’t know what it wants to be, so hearts could be good or bad here. Either way, it’s too late to find out.
 

Unfortunately, players like me are the minority and more and more players just want to rush through. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be added though for future maps. GW2 is at its best when it casts its net  widely

 

 

The vast majority I saw about hearts was from casual players who wanted stuff they could easily solo, because some people have trouble with even relatively easy events. Many who commented saw hearts as solo content, where other content was just too hard. It was a backlash from HoT being too hard for the casual crowd. I don't believe for a second Anet brought them back to create more cohesive story. I believe Anet brought them back because people asked for them, and they were easy/fast/cheap content to provide.  Obviously though I can't know that for sure.

Not sure why Nayos is a map that doesn't know what it wants to be. Seems pretty straightforward to me story and themewise at least.

[Vayne.8563]

15 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I think that there is a significant distinction between hearts, optional content available for those who desire a touch more lore and engagement with the wider world in between story elements, and being required to complete events in the open world in order to be allowed to continue the main story.

I do not mind being asked to help out defending, attacking, etc while elements of the story percolate behind the scenes...but it can be overdone. Note that the OP's title references, "the amount of filler comtent," not that filler content exists at all.

I did note the OP's title.  I just feel like there's less filler than he's saying there is in the new zones.  This trend actually started with IBS, which in my opinion was the worst of all the expansions for filler content (and  yes, I know it's not an expansion). But the footsteps quests were the blueprint for many of the quests we got in EOD, where lore and story didn't come from hearts so much as from longer quests that involved doing specific events, talking to different people and unraveling a story.

I've said this before and I'll say this again. Hearts are stand alone content. They don't interact with each other. They don't connect directly to each other. Whatever info they can give you or story you can tell is less story and more background. And that's okay.  But these longer event chains do tell a story.  Think of the Pale Reaver chain from HoT. Or the Noble's Ledges chain where we follow the story of a group of survivors, after they were shot down by Mordremoth.

In EoD we have longer, involved story and achievement chains that talk about The End of the Celestial Ministry, Marjory's past or the Fate of House Zu Heltzer.  The stories in Skywatch Archipelago remind me of that. That longer quest chain type of story, instead of a stand-alone heart.

Anyway to each their own. Most hearts, the vast majority, add nothing to the game for me.  The one in Lake Doric where you sneak is good. That adds directly to the story, but the ones where you just kill stuff in the area that's part of the story.  There are plenty of those. 

I could pick out a handful of hearts that really add to the lore or story of a zone over events and event chains, but they'd be just that. A handful of hearts.

[Vilin.8056]

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

"most players" vs "~3k unique views". I believe that's what the laugh was at.

Reality check:

https://www.twitch.tv/directory/category/guild-wars-2

Maybe try to find a video under GW2 open world ever exceeded 3k views without involving a young girl acting cute.

Edited March 9 by Vilin.8056

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I did note the OP's title.  I just feel like there's less filler than he's saying there is in the new zones.  This trend actually started with IBS, which in my opinion was the worst of all the expansions for filler content (and  yes, I know it's not an expansion). But the footsteps quests were the blueprint for many of the quests we got in EOD, where lore and story didn't come from hearts so much as from longer quests that involved doing specific events, talking to different people and unraveling a story.

I've said this before and I'll say this again. Hearts are stand alone content. They don't interact with each other. They don't connect directly to each other. Whatever info they can give you or story you can tell is less story and more background. And that's okay.  But these longer event chains do tell a story.  Think of the Pale Reaver chain from HoT. Or the Noble's Ledges chain where we follow the story of a group of survivors, after they were shot down by Mordremoth.

In EoD we have longer, involved story and achievement chains that talk about The End of the Celestial Ministry, Marjory's past or the Fate of House Zu Heltzer.  The stories in Skywatch Archipelago remind me of that. That longer quest chain type of story, instead of a stand-alone heart.

Anyway to each their own. Most hearts, the vast majority, add nothing to the game for me.  The one in Lake Doric where you sneak is good. That adds directly to the story, but the ones where you just kill stuff in the area that's part of the story.  There are plenty of those. 

I could pick out a handful of hearts that really add to the lore or story of a zone over events and event chains, but they'd be just that. A handful of hearts.

If you look at where hearts are in this game they follow a pattern.

If the map is a 'rushed' action like story, then there are no hearts.

• Core Orr
• HoT
• Bloodstone Fen, but hearts are in the rest of LWS3
• IBS
• DE
• All of SotO

Hearts are there because lore wise in the maps with hearts the Commander has time to lollygag. Personally, I like not having hearts, but I do see where and why they work.

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

If you look at where hearts are in this game they follow a pattern.

If the map is a 'rushed' action like story, then there are no hearts.

• Core Orr
• HoT
• Bloodstone Fen, but hearts are in the rest of LWS3
• IBS
• DE
• All of SotO

Hearts are there because lore wise in the maps with hearts the Commander has time to lollygag. Personally, I like not having hearts, but I do see where and why they work.

You have a citation to back this up, or is this just an opinion? I say this because the devs said the original game wasn't designed around hearts, and they only added them to keep people in places were dynamic events spawned. That's what the devs said.

Most of the Season 3 maps are busy maps and don't need hearts.  I think your explanation can be explained by humans wanting to find patterns in everything.

Edited March 10 by Vayne.8563
grammar

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You have a citation to back this up, or is this just an opinion? I say this because the devs said the original game wasn't designed around hearts, and they only added them to keep people in places were dynamic events spawned. That's what the devs said.

Most of the Season 3 maps are busy maps and don't need hearts.  I think your explanation can be explained by humans wanting to find patterns in everything.

Orr: Active war zone where we are commanding
HoT: Active war zone where we are commanding
Bloodstone Fen: Emergency followed by hostile engagement zone wide where we are commanding troops on the ground
Dragonfall: We're fighting on top of an ED's back trying to kill it the entire time,  there is no time to water daisies.
Bjora Marches: Rushed story where we are tracking down NPCs that were lost due to open hostilities with Svanir, could be considered an open war zone as well
Drizzlewood Coast: Charr civil war going on zone wide where we are aiding one side
DE: Active war zone against the void and SooWon where we are commanding the forces
Gayla Delves: Technically not an active war zone this time, but a fast paced critical situation require boots on the ground.
SotO: Each map is either an active war zone against the Krytpis or some cataclysmic activity happened and is being mitigated.

As opposed the other maps with hearts, places like the starter zones, Mount Maelstrom, Frostgorge Sound, most of LWS3 and all of LWS4. Are fights going on? Yes, but in those places we aren't actively trying to mitigate a war, fighting an ED, some cataclysmic disaster, or some Mist demons.

This isn't so much as humans trying to find a pattern somewhere any more than recognizing that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west would be. The Devs may have stated their reasoning at launch for the Hearts, but how they've used them since then as been extremely formulaic.

[Leger.3724]

11 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Yeah I am now mildly confused on the original comment and what we talking in here like at all.

The point is people are complaining about a lack of content in this expansion pack, a poor story.

And it seems like a lot of time is being put into CM strikes that 99% of the playerbase is never going to bother attempting.

World of Warcraft over the last year has had a bunch of high end raiding guilds disband. Final Fantasy 14 is experiencing playerbase drops. They're similar to GW2. Most people don't attempt the raids, the minority that does - very few end up beating them.

We know it's not working in bigger games. Why would it work in this game with an objectively worse and more confusing combat design? It's a waste of resources, period.

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Orr: Active war zone where we are commanding
HoT: Active war zone where we are commanding
Bloodstone Fen: Emergency followed by hostile engagement zone wide where we are commanding troops on the ground
Dragonfall: We're fighting on top of an ED's back trying to kill it the entire time,  there is no time to water daisies.
Bjora Marches: Rushed story where we are tracking down NPCs that were lost due to open hostilities with Svanir, could be considered an open war zone as well
Drizzlewood Coast: Charr civil war going on zone wide where we are aiding one side
DE: Active war zone against the void and SooWon where we are commanding the forces
Gayla Delves: Technically not an active war zone this time, but a fast paced critical situation require boots on the ground.
SotO: Each map is either an active war zone against the Krytpis or some cataclysmic activity happened and is being mitigated.

As opposed the other maps with hearts, places like the starter zones, Mount Maelstrom, Frostgorge Sound, most of LWS3 and all of LWS4. Are fights going on? Yes, but in those places we aren't actively trying to mitigate a war, fighting an ED, some cataclysmic disaster, or some Mist demons.

This isn't so much as humans trying to find a pattern somewhere any more than recognizing that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west would be. The Devs may have stated their reasoning at launch for the Hearts, but how they've used them since then as been extremely formulaic.

Hirathi Hinterlands is an active war zone that remsembles straits of devestation more than any other zone. The war is with the centaurs. There are hearts.

[Cuks.8241]

On 3/8/2024 at 4:41 AM, Vayne.8563 said:

I see what you're saying. And yet, I thought the mechanic in the last story in Bitterfrost was awful. It's not hard, just awful. I don't like or enjoy it. It's completely contrived  And the whole fight is staying out of circles and pulls and knockbacks for the adds the minotaur has to kill.  The problem with mechanics in story missions, and this is what you're not getting, is that most people do story missions once. They're not playing to get a raid boss. They're playing to see what happens and get what rewards they can, and that's it.  The small percentage of people who play storys for mechanics are just that, a small percentage of people. It's why strikes are there in the first place.  I've done the EOD story a few times, but I've done the strike missions  in EOD far more times.  I've done the Soto strikes far more than I've done the soto story.

I'd wager people don't want to repeat story over and over again until they learn the mechanics and get good at it. It's not why people I know play story. There is other content in the story.

I don't find the Ice Beast the most engaging fight also, it was just an example of a boss and mechanic that was common in the past (and some were good and some bad). And an optional achiev for those that want the challenge. The achiev I found quite fun to do.

Achievs are a good way to satisfy both worlds, to actually have two difficulties. 

And even if we forget mechanics and difficulty of the fight, the delivery is still subpar compared to the past. I think players that mostly play for the story are actually the ones that would appreciate more dynamic and cinematic delivery during story missions the most.  And some unique settings, not just fenced parts of open world (and fenced so tightly that some mobs and achiev items end up out of bounds). For me Soto just feels a bit scuffed and rushed and lacking lot's of small details that used to be gw2's edge in my opinion. 

I can give another example, the whole Eod prologue. Your first mission is a unique setting on airships. It's a unique, detailed setting just for that one story mission. It's dynamic, things are happening around you which seem to be out of your control. Aurene is doing her own thing. The mission is quite easy but you have achievs for those that want a bit of challenge.

You end up in Cantha and in prison. A small story bit that could be completely cut out and wouldn't really matter in the grand scheme. But it was not. It was fun introduction and even had a fun optional puzzle prison break achiev on top. You get released, fill some release papers, meet key characters and get a short cinematic bit.

I feel that only that part of Eod had more thought and work put into than everything story delivery related in Soto. If this was Soto standard you would talk to Anhka, had a static mission on 1 airship where you kill 3 waves of Aetherblades. Maybe not even that because Airship is not a part of OW map. Maybe just a portal from Kryta to Cantha and you fight a few Aetherblades on the Seitung beach. And then you would end up in Seitung where you click on a few npcs (Rama, Minister, Kasmeer). They deliver their monologues and welcome to Cantha. Is this familiar?

[Ashen.2907]

7 hours ago, Leger.3724 said:

The point is people are complaining about a lack of content in this expansion pack, a poor story.

And it seems like a lot of time is being put into CM strikes that 99% of the playerbase is never going to bother attempting.

World of Warcraft over the last year has had a bunch of high end raiding guilds disband. Final Fantasy 14 is experiencing playerbase drops. They're similar to GW2. Most people don't attempt the raids, the minority that does - very few end up beating them.

We know it's not working in bigger games. Why would it work in this game with an objectively worse and more confusing combat design? It's a waste of resources, period.

The design of the most recent CMs gives the impression that very little time is being spent on them. Subjectively not, "objectively worse." You are of course entitled to your opinion on the matter but that doesnt make it an objective fact.

Edited March 10 by Ashen.2907

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Hirathi Hinterlands is an active war zone that remsembles straits of devestation more than any other zone. The war is with the centaurs. There are hearts.

Yet we aren't the Commander yet, we aren't the ones directing the armies. There is no eminent crisis or catastrophe happening either.  

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Yet we aren't the Commander yet, we aren't the ones directing the armies. There is no eminent crisis or catastrophe happening either.  

Lake Doric has hearts, you're the commander and there's an eminent crisis happening. Is that better? The whole point is you can keep making arbitrary rules up and move the bar until a point is proven. A theory is just that, a theory. There's no proof of it.  In Lake Doric, DR is attacked. There's battles going on. It's a major situation, and we still have hearts.  It's not that hard to imagine. 

Anet probably doesn't have this list of rules like this zone is a war zone, and the story is moving fast enough so we don't need hearts. Them having plans which change is more likely.

For example, none of Orr, that's three zones, had hearts. Southsun where we just fought animals had no hearts. Dry Top where we weren't fighting a war didn't have hearts. Silverwastes didn't have hearts. The four zones of hot didn't, and Bloodstone Fen didn't.  It's just as easy to believe Hearts had been removed and never were supposed to make a return, and then people started asking for them. Bloodstone Fen was probably already completed, so they decided not to add them, and just add them going forward. I think that's far more likely than this complex list of things that says we'll add hearts here. There's no need for a convoluted justification for hearts, particularly when we know that they weren't meant to be included in the first place.

A lot of people can't stand hearts and they complained and so they came out again. Anet actually balanced them in EOD by making less hearts and not including them in a the last zone, because it was a meta zone, built around that one huge meta.  It was a showpiece zone. But then there were no hearts in Gyala either, or in any of Soto. Probably, because we've had so many changes to the creative team in leadership positions, some of them liked hearts and some of them didn't.

At the end of the day, a theory is a theory and will remain so without proof. Shrugs.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Lake Doric has hearts, you're the commander and there's an eminent crisis happening. Is that better? The whole point is you can keep making arbitrary rules up and move the bar until a point is proven. A theory is just that, a theory. There's no proof of it.  In Lake Doric, DR is attacked. There's battles going on. It's a major situation, and we still have hearts.  It's not that hard to imagine. 

You're close here. Lake Doric an attack happened, but Jenna has DR protected. The imminent threat is no longer imminent, and Logan is on the ground leading the Seraph, he is their boss in this map, not us.

3 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Anet probably doesn't have this list of rules like this zone is a war zone, and the story is moving fast enough so we don't need hearts. Them having plans which change is more likely.

For example, none of Orr, that's three zones, had hearts. Southsun where we just fought animals had no hearts. Dry Top where we weren't fighting a war didn't have hearts. Silverwastes didn't have hearts. The four zones of hot didn't, and Bloodstone Fen didn't.  It's just as easy to believe Hearts had been removed and never were supposed to make a return, and then people started asking for them. Bloodstone Fen was probably already completed, so they decided not to add them, and just add them going forward. I think that's far more likely than this complex list of things that says we'll add hearts here. There's no need for a convoluted justification for hearts, particularly when we know that they weren't meant to be included in the first place.

A lot of people can't stand hearts and they complained and so they came out again. Anet actually balanced them in EOD by making less hearts and not including them in a the last zone, because it was a meta zone, built around that one huge meta.  It was a showpiece zone. But then there were no hearts in Gyala either, or in any of Soto. Probably, because we've had so many changes to the creative team in leadership positions, some of them liked hearts and some of them didn't.

At the end of the day, a theory is a theory and will remain so without proof. Shrugs.

In each of the zones you listed, think of the circumstances of that zone. In each there is some imminent matter requiring expediency. Southsun does not feel like that now, but when it was released with LW was supposed to some live experience and we were assaulting a race of creatures that had been assaulting LA.

TL;DR: If the zone has some matter of urgency, be it all out war or build up to war where we are a part of that command, or some Tyria wide emergency, there have historically been no hearts. When we're in a zone where the Commander isn't the one in charge, or is relatively peaceful and full of settlements, we find hearts.

[Linken.6345]

15 hours ago, Leger.3724 said:

The point is people are complaining about a lack of content in this expansion pack, a poor story.

And it seems like a lot of time is being put into CM strikes that 99% of the playerbase is never going to bother attempting.

World of Warcraft over the last year has had a bunch of high end raiding guilds disband. Final Fantasy 14 is experiencing playerbase drops. They're similar to GW2. Most people don't attempt the raids, the minority that does - very few end up beating them.

We know it's not working in bigger games. Why would it work in this game with an objectively worse and more confusing combat design? It's a waste of resources, period.

Alot of time being put into the cm strike are you joking did you see how broken that cm released?

Edited March 10 by Linken.6345

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You're close here. Lake Doric an attack happened, but Jenna has DR protected. The imminent threat is no longer imminent, and Logan is on the ground leading the Seraph, he is their boss in this map, not us.

In each of the zones you listed, think of the circumstances of that zone. In each there is some imminent matter requiring expediency. Southsun does not feel like that now, but when it was released with LW was supposed to some live experience and we were assaulting a race of creatures that had been assaulting LA.

TL;DR: If the zone has some matter of urgency, be it all out war or build up to war where we are a part of that command, or some Tyria wide emergency, there have historically been no hearts. When we're in a zone where the Commander isn't the one in charge, or is relatively peaceful and full of settlements, we find hearts.

There's a lot of hair-splitting going on here. The Lake Doric attack happened, Queen Jennah shielded DR but couldn't shield it forever. Logan was in charge of the strategy, but you were the one going around doing the content, while Logan basically sat in a command tent. In Orr, which has no hearts, Trahearne was in charge of the strategy while you were out fighting an elder dragon. He wasn't even there, but you were NOT in charge of the pact.  At the end of the day, the party that took down Caudecaus was you, even if you weren't in charge, you were absolutely in charge of the final assault.  Whe we took down Zhaitan, you sat on a ship, and you were not in charge of the army or fleet of ships. You were on one of many ships and you were just fighting.

Nor were we under direct threat from Zhaitan in Orr, because Zhaitan was Orr's territory. Divinty's Reach wasn't under attack. The first major city under threat in the game was Lion's Arch and that was during the karka invasion.

So, Trahearne in charge, no immediate threat story, no hearts.  Logan in charge, an immediate threat to Divinty's reach, hearts.  What you're doing is mental gymnastics to prove a personal theory for which the evidence. Maybe there is a formula, but what you have isn't it. Think about what you're saying. You're saying we were in charge in Orr?  I don't remember making a lot of decisions. I remember Trahearne saying "Commander a word."  A lot. Trahearne gave a speech in a Light in the Darkness, not us. We were the heroes, because we fought Zhaitan. We were the heroes in Lake Doric because we fought Caudecaus. We were in charge of our little guild, but not the zone or the strategy to defend us. Logan sends up out to scout. We keep returning to Logan for orders. How is Trahearne different?

[Teknomancer.4895]

23 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

In Orr, which has no hearts

Renown hearts are just a way to give some flavor to the maps, they're almost always "help out the locals."

If there are no non-hostile locals to help out, it makes sense there would be no renown hearts. Just imagine that in Orr:

Help the Putrefiers slay the living?

Feed maggots to the undead fish heads so they puke out more Risen?

[Vayne.8563]

11 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Renown hearts are just a way to give some flavor to the maps, they're almost always "help out the locals."

If there are no non-hostile locals to help out, it makes sense there would be no renown hearts. Just imagine that in Orr:

Help the Putrefiers slay the living?

Feed maggots to the undead fish heads so they puke out more Risen?

While that's true, the devs did talk about having hearts to teach people how the game worked and then taking them away. That was the plan. They could always invest locals. In some locations the locals are people at forts who are fighting against an enemy after all. What zone have we been in that didn't have locals we could help out. There were allied Hylek in Verdant brink. Southsun had locals. But neither have hearts.  In fact, there's en entire event chain in Verdant Brink where we help out the locals.

Pretty much all four pylons in AB are us helping out the locals, but there are no hearts. 

This is a very silly argument. What are you trying to say? That the devs are putting hearts in based on a lore formula instead of it just being another piece of content that we play? I'm finding that a bit difficult to believe. I don't think there's a rulebook for it, because there doesn't seem to be a rulebook for much of anything. Anet originally set expectations with the original game and when those expectatoins are later no met, people complain and sometimes Anet fixes is, like competing for resources at a heart instead of having everyone have their own. It's happened a couple of times and Anet has fixed it. Which is why I don't think there's a rule book. Multiple teams working on different chapters of the story in rotation couldn't even agree on how to put out a fire. You think they had this hearts idea in mind, rather than a loose idea that we're doing hearts again?  Cause I don't.