A better intro to the game for new players | Must have. CMs should read it.

[August.5934]

Feedback

Just as morning shows/begins the day. I believe the moment you click "enter"/"play" button of game; it decides weather players will love how the game the way it introduces or they carry a disappointed feeling in thier mind until they give up entirely. 

1. Character Creation screen & class selection screen
   • Revamp the class selection screen. Each class have thier own Elite spec and it is important that when a new player click on a class, they are to be introduced with class elite specs. Elite specs impacts the a class playstyle very heavily. Show them how class elite specs play in a small video screen underneath or evenbetter; If i click on ranger, it's elite specs options should be visible and when i click on a elite spec icon of ranger, then it should provide the information of what that spec is and what it does, with some cool animations to capture new player's attention. ofcourse, keeping everything idiotproof/very simple is a must 🙂
   • Provide more character creation options, such as New hair style, body type, faces, gradient color options for eyes & hairs (or for Charr's fur). Even better a costomization option for character body in the similer way it was provided for face costomization.
2. Character intro in the world
   • I believe it is time to rework it abit. The moment a new player enters the world, they should be introduced the way of GW2 questless system and other things. Example for human race: The moment they enter the game, they shouldn't be told to go do a mission. Make a mini-map with 4 points of interest, 2  Vistas, 1 hero point, 1 scout, 2 waypoints, 2 Renown Hearts and in this mini-map, introduce them with all this things. What they are and what they do, how to reach them and make a small combat, provide them with weapons and explain them what weapon swapping is and so on, a 10mins intro intro to combats and provide them with a few buff/debuff system, only the most importants ones like Might, Fury, protection.
   • Create a Codex/Archive and put it's icon right next to the lion's head (Black Lion trading Company's icon) on top left of the screen with a very visible & obvious icon (book icon). Codex should provide all the information a player needs to know. All buffs, debuffs, combo fields, combo fields effects, items and their effects, world bosses, events, character scaling level scaling, how to level up the character, mail, trading company, puzzels, gears sytems, weapon system, Stats in gears/weapons and so on more. Codex should be introduced to new players right after they complete thier game intro (that mini-map intro) and must clearly explain what codex is.

Why this changes are needed?

This are needed because many new players always complain about game been overwhelmed. Not knowing what things are and where to go. New players are mostly lost and in time they lose interest in the game slowly. By providing the changes mentions above, many new & returning players will be guided towards the game more better and Codex will always be there, not /wiki thing. It's a pyscological effect, by providing a clean & proper codex in-game is 100 times better then sending someone to a wiki by saying "type /wiki". Keep players inside the game as much as you can.

[Leo G.4501]

I kind of like your #1 there. Although it's a bit overcomplicated. Telling the player the names and short description of the profession's elite specs is great, with maybe a wiki link that, when clicked, opens a window to the e-spec's page.  A video, for the most part, is going to go over the new players' heads. It's pointless. Like, let me pull up a video of a raid on a profession you haven't played and you tell me what's going on in the video...it'll be tough to do.

#2 I just flat out disagree.

The tutorial you outline sounds boring. You don't want to bore a new player in the first 10 min, you want to WOW them. Put them in a grandiose battle that they get to participate in, drip feed them info and then when the time comes, let the loose to explore and figure stuff out on their own. The player doesn't need to know everything at once or even a lot at once, just the basics (using their skills, how to dodge and how equipment works). That's why the early areas are easy. If players are complaining about being overwhelmed, putting them in a 10min intro tutorial isn't going to suddenly whelm them. They'd have to actually make it through said tutorial first and then retain that info after.

An optional tutorial for stuff like boons, conditions, combos, profession mechanics, etc should be optional if it exists. That and it saps the fun out of actually learning things yourself. There is a sense of excitement when you discover "Oh, this weapon has completely different skills?" or "Oh, that mob died because I put conditions on it?" feels better than just sitting through a tutorial telling you about it. And learning through trial and error ("so that's what that downed skill does") is more effective than a pop up to tell you to do something in a specific rotation or order.

I dunno, maybe I'm bias. I sometimes watch streamers who are trying out the game for the first time, in awe at how fluid the movement is and how novel the questing is. The worst thing that happens is when a stan watching the stream comes in (in game) telling them how everything works, where to go, what to equip, etc saps the enjoyment of watching them learn but also robs the player from discovering the game at their own pace.

Edited March 27 by Leo G.4501

[MysteryDude.1572]

New people get overwhelmed by what? All this freedom they stumble upon character creation? just.. literally go out and explore. You got questions ? Use the chat function to make an actual conversation... It's not that complicated.

[August.5934]

9 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

Although it's a bit overcomplicated. Telling the player the names and short description of the profession's elite specs is great, with maybe a wiki link that, when clicked, opens a window to the e-spec's page.  A video, for the most part, is going to go over the new players' heads. It's pointless. Like, let me pull up a video of a raid on a profession you haven't played and you tell me what's going on in the video...it'll be tough to do.

Whole idea is to keep players in game engaged. I would rather they remove /wiki and put everything on that wiki inside the game in Codex with squeaky-clean UI that even a monkey can navigate (idiotproof/blindplayer-proof). 

About the video you mentioned. Have you ever heared the term "class trailer" or "elite-spec trailer"? it's about a small class/spec demo of what that class becomes after it "awakens" to it's elite spec. Example video: Core Guardian Demo | Elite spec 1: Dragon Hunter | Elite Spec 2: Firebrand | Elite Spec 3: Willbender. In here, Elite Spec 2 & 3 trailer was well done. Anet explained what the spec does and explained it's fighting style abit ofc, it video has to be shortend abit for a demo and Core spec trailer & elite spec 1 trailers of all classes needs to be well done as well.

10 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

The tutorial you outline sounds boring. You don't want to bore a new player in the first 10 min, you want to WOW them.

I only told what tutorial needs to be and what they must explain in tutorial(vistas, POI, HP, scouts, RH). But to make player feel "WOW", Anet have to decide by themself. maybe during the combat tutorial with a small event? I believe Anet can make that happen.

10 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

I dunno, maybe I'm bias. I sometimes watch streamers who are trying out the game for the first time, in awe at how fluid the movement is and how novel the questing is. The worst thing that happens is when a stan watching the stream comes in (in game) telling them how everything works, where to go, what to equip, etc saps the enjoyment of watching them learn but also robs the player from discovering the game at their own pace.

You don't have to worry about that. If Anet accepts the small feedback i wrote them above, All new players when they come out of a tutorial will have a knowledge of all the basic stuffs in the game and they will know what Codex is and where to find it. 

[Infinity.2876]

1a: I like the idea of having the ability to look at elite specs on character creation however we need to remember that when people first start, they don't have access to the expansions. I would recommend this to be added where you buy it.

1b: Yes, there need to be more character creation options. You can't make skinny norn, short humans, or big sylvari.

2a: I think one of the big things about why entering the world is overwhelming is because it sends you a bunch of things and then gradually goes through and explains them all. For example, when you finish the story instance (which is self-explanatory but lacking a learn how to dodge which currently is an optional thing) you are bombarded by loot, other players, a compass, whatever festival is on currently, a scout, and several other things. I would also encourage collapsing any events that are happening currently while in the first few levels just so you can get a hang of the game. If you really desired, you could uncollapse it to go do the festival. I suggest a popup that tells you to "follow the compass" then you talk to the scout which tells you about renown hearts and events. Poi, vistas, and heropoints should not be explained as they are self-explanatory.

2b: A codex is an interesting idea and I support it; however, it should not contain everything you need to know about the game because reading through it is an unneeded chore. The wiki is helpful because you can look up specific things, and is already implemented, meaning the devs don't have to spend money and time making it. I would make it so that the codex contains the short tips that you gain from leveling up so that if you need a refresher on an aspect of the game you could easily access it, even after lvling up.

 

[Mungo Zen.9364]

1a - I’d be fine with this. A clickable pop up with info on profession mechanics, weapons and especs would provide more for players to connect with when choosing a first character. 
 

1b - asked for a lot by many players, but irrelevant to this post.  More cosmetics is always welcome

2a - when a new player gets thru the level one event and into the starter area, they are guided to all the things you mentioned. It just happens to be massive open world rather than mini map. This allows players to focus on what they want right away.  Some new players just want to power level thru all that stuff anyways.  Some want to spend hours enjoying every inch of every map. 
 

also, in the current setup, I can start playing with a friend within 5 minutes of creating a character. I’m not stuck completing a tutorial map to learn the game first. 
 

2b - as far as I know, the wiki is not created or updated by arenanet, but by the players. It would cost a huge amount of time and money to move the wiki into the game, and I’d rather they spent that money elsewhere. 

Edited March 27 by Mungo Zen.9364

[Leo G.4501]

4 hours ago, August.5934 said:

 

About the video you mentioned. Have you ever heared the term "class trailer" or "elite-spec trailer"? it's about a small class/spec demo of what that class becomes after it "awakens" to it's elite spec. Example video: Core Guardian Demo | Elite spec 1: Dragon Hunter | Elite Spec 2: Firebrand | Elite Spec 3: Willbender. In here, Elite Spec 2 & 3 trailer was well done. Anet explained what the spec does and explained it's fighting style abit ofc, it video has to be shortend abit for a demo and Core spec trailer & elite spec 1 trailers of all classes needs to be well done as well.

I get you. I suppose a short video wouldn't be detrimental, but likely still confusing (from a newb perspective, seeing the spec use different weapons doesn't have the same meaning to them as it does to us vets). Usually the main thing on display for these videos are the flashy graphics rather than an explanatory tutorial. Like I said before, you're trying to excite them not bore them and there really is no drawback to testing something before settling on a specific profession.

Only other issue I could see with the demo videos is them dating themselves like that core video. Considering how trigger happy they get altering specs, it only takes a few before the video starts to present a distorted view of what the spec actually does.

This isn't me shooting down the idea tho, just presenting issues and concerns. I just think a flavorful description can be enough to capture a new player's imagination and excitement.

4 hours ago, August.5934 said:

I only told what tutorial needs to be and what they must explain in tutorial(vistas, POI, HP, scouts, RH). But to make player feel "WOW", Anet have to decide by themself. maybe during the combat tutorial with a small event? I believe Anet can make that happen.

And most of those things are kind of boring to need to tutorialize (yeah, let me tell you about points of interests or POIs...).

While I get where you're going, I think you undercut just how diegetic some of the tutorials in the game are. I've seen players walk right NPCs that are talking to them and only after the streamer stops and listens did they notice it and then interact and then BOOM, it's a scout or an event.  They then learn that, sometimes NPCs aren't just static but also tell you information (something a lot of players aren't used to, or even how a lot of dialog is voiced). 

Having a codex for specific stuff like certain combat stuff (combo fields, stunbreaks, etc) right in the game to reference wouldn't be a bad thing tho. In that regard, a lot of vets go a good portion of their early game not even knowing what or how combos work. Putting some reference in the game to point to their existence would help there.

[Xelqypla.6817]

1. New players have no frame of reference for "elite spec." New players don't have access to elite specs and "Pay monies" at the very beginning of the character creation is going to be very, very ugly. On top of this, elite specs... don't actually impact the profession as much as you think. A Specter Thief is not a Necromancer. It doesn't play like a Necromancer. It's still plays like a Thief, with Thief traits, utilities, weapons, stealth, and mobility. Sure, Specter may seem much different from Deadeye but... they are both very clearly "Thief".

More faces/hair/whatever would be nice, but I don't think that is going to make or break many newbies.

2. Intro is fine. They are playing a game in an easy newbie zone. Map and mini-map have icons they can move towards to discover what they are about. Each level already gives the player basic information like weapon swap, buffs, etc. Throwing everything at them when they log in and then... have them play for 80 levels where none of it matters will just have them forget it faster than they do now.

No codex. It's 2024. Game Wiki's are common. YouTube is common. Game forums are common. I see no reason to spend so much developer time to not only create the codex, but to keep it updated when the Wiki exists. Not only does it exist, it doesn't need the Devs to keep it up to date every patch, since tons of players will do it for free.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, Xelqypla.6817 said:

New players have no frame of reference for "elite spec." New players don't have access to elite specs and "Pay monies" at the very beginning of the character creation is going to be very, very ugly. On top of this, elite specs... don't actually impact the profession as much as you think.

Knowing you eventually have to buy an expansion to access advanced classes is not a rare concept in MMO gaming. New players will accept this. I'm not exactly an new player; a returning player, but I expected to shell out some green after going through core again if I decided to keep playing. I did the same as a new player for FF14 too.

Even considering that, I would have jumped on board even faster if I knew I could play more of a cleric class with firebrand rather be locked into the paladin concept presented with guardians. I was heavy into priests from other games when I came back to gw2, but I don't generally like paladins. I wanted a priest/cleric and didn't think the game had one until someone told me about FB. Similarly, I would have jumped at being able to play a stealthy sniper instead of my old thief that I never bothered to level because I didn't like their lack of ranged weaponry. It was the main reason I didn't pick thief at launch. I wish I had known about the deadeye spec.

Advertising elite specs can inform new players that there are other ways to manifest your desired character concept and other ways to play a profession that may match your style more. And if you think firebrand is anything like willbender or even core guardian, you play them much differently than I do. I absolutely advocate an intro to elite specs and how they change the base class in concept and mechanics before locking your character into a profession.

[Xelqypla.6817]

4 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Knowing you eventually have to buy an expansion to access advanced classes is not a rare concept in MMO gaming. New players will accept this. I'm not exactly an new player; a returning player, but I expected to shell out some green after going through core again if I decided to keep playing. I did the same as a new player for FF14 too.

Even considering that, I would have jumped on board even faster if I knew I could play more of a cleric class with firebrand rather be locked into the paladin concept presented with guardians. I was heavy into priests from other games when I came back to gw2, but I don't generally like paladins. I wanted a priest/cleric and didn't think the game had one until someone told me about FB. Similarly, I would have jumped at being able to play a stealthy sniper instead of my old thief that I never bothered to level because I didn't like their lack of ranged weaponry. It was the main reason I didn't pick thief at launch. I wish I had known about the deadeye spec.

Advertising elite specs can inform new players that there are other ways to manifest your desired character concept and other ways to play a profession that may match your style more. And if you think firebrand is anything like willbender or even core guardian, you play them much differently than I do. I absolutely advocate an intro to elite specs and how they change the base class in concept and mechanics before locking your character into a profession.

I can understand the appeal, but that would be for players who are already familiar with the game. I'd even be more inclined to support it if the game was a standard WoW clone. But as it stands, players need to understand the mechanics of the game before they could make any sense of the changes Elites bring. Firebrand changing Virtues into Tomes, which are similar to Engineer Kits might as well be talking about Hephalumps and Woozles to a new player.

After all, at level 2 you open up the second weaponskill.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

3 hours ago, Xelqypla.6817 said:

I can understand the appeal, but that would be for players who are already familiar with the game. I'd even be more inclined to support it if the game was a standard WoW clone. But as it stands, players need to understand the mechanics of the game before they could make any sense of the changes Elites bring. Firebrand changing Virtues into Tomes, which are similar to Engineer Kits might as well be talking about Hephalumps and Woozles to a new player.

After all, at level 2 you open up the second weaponskill.

I disagree, or at least I think we are talking about two different things here. Many players I know, myself included, don't start a game and pick their character based on game specific mechanics. They don't say, "I want to use kits to get temporary skills or open tomes as my main play experience." They won't even know what that means yet.

They say, "I want to play a big, raging warrior," or "I want to play a priest," or occasionally something more specific, "I want to play a stealthy sniper." Learning right off the bat that an engineer can eventually summon a mech, may sway someone that likes the theme of the engineer, but picks ranger instead because they want a pet. They pick their character at creation based on what class gives them that fantasy. First time players learn mechanics later, after you pick your toon and start the game. Elite spec intros should not focus on "firebrand uses skills like kits" or the mechanics going into that. It should be something more like, "They inspire allies by shouting mantras that heal and provide powerful boons, purging their impurities and their enemies alike. Firebrands can use axes on their main hand, combining fire and light to burn foes with vengeance, and pull them to their reckoning. Firebrands are very versatile, and can specialize as either damage dealers, supports, or healers."

Edited March 28 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Cuks.8241]

Nothing against your proposals, mostly improvements.

I just dont buy this new players being confused and need more tutorials. Ive played many different games in my life, many bigger and with much more players than gw2 and players did just fine. Gw2 is not more complex or confusing.

[Tinker.6924]

I disagree with nearly every one of your points

• story, hearts, waypoints, etc... too difficult for a new player?  Maybe if GW2 was the very first video game they ever SAW!  My kids were rocking Minecraft when they were 8 or 9 and frankly Minecraft is a million times more complex than GW2.
• /wiki too difficult for new players? Using the web for additional resources is second nature for game players, especially the ones that are Millennials and younger.  An in game codex might be nice but does nothing to make the game more accessible to new players.  
• appearance options = nice but irrelevant for new players
• Information overload at character creation actually works against new players.  Too much info at once creates more questions, its guaranteed to be useless marketing PR fluff and leads to disappointment if the things change (as they always do with every new content released and balance patch) and what Anet thought an elite spec was for isn't how any player uses it.

I personally think the keyboard+mouse MMO-style UI is the only real challenge to new MMO players, especially if they are coming from a console-oriented controller.  Its a total non-issue though if the person has played any other MMO.

GW2 has a very unique take on character roles (tank, healer, dps, etc...), end game progression and emphasis on massive open world content that only appeals to a minority of MMO players.  GW2 is ultra weak in end-game, instanced group content and anyone expecting GW2 to have what other games provide in raids and dungeons and similar will be very disappointed and the end-game issues is probably what hurts GW2 the most in the long run.

[Sweetbread.3678]

The espec thing would be nice, but other than that the only thing they really need to do is make it SUPER obvious that /wiki exists right off the bat. Like put in some loading screen hints or something, that's really all that it would take.

[starlinvf.1358]

On 3/27/2024 at 12:17 PM, MysteryDude.1572 said:

New people get overwhelmed by what? All this freedom they stumble upon character creation? just.. literally go out and explore. You got questions ? Use the chat function to make an actual conversation... It's not that complicated.

There are straight up a shocking number of players who still think all chat in MMOs are toxic, and just disable or ignore it out the gate.  These people then insist that a game MUST teach the player everything in a level design format, or its an utter failure of game design. 

To this day people complain about needing a wiki to explain any given process, regardless of how the game tutorializes it, because they can’t be bothered to experiment or use shared knowledge.  

[August.5934]

On 3/29/2024 at 1:19 AM, Tinker.6924 said:

I disagree with nearly every one of your points

• story, hearts, waypoints, etc... too difficult for a new player?  Maybe if GW2 was the very first video game they ever SAW!  My kids were rocking Minecraft when they were 8 or 9 and frankly Minecraft is a million times more complex than GW2.
• /wiki too difficult for new players? Using the web for additional resources is second nature for game players, especially the ones that are Millennials and younger.  An in game codex might be nice but does nothing to make the game more accessible to new players.  
• appearance options = nice but irrelevant for new players
• Information overload at character creation actually works against new players.  Too much info at once creates more questions, its guaranteed to be useless marketing PR fluff and leads to disappointment if the things change (as they always do with every new content released and balance patch) and what Anet thought an elite spec was for isn't how any player uses it.

I personally think the keyboard+mouse MMO-style UI is the only real challenge to new MMO players, especially if they are coming from a console-oriented controller.  Its a total non-issue though if the person has played any other MMO.

GW2 has a very unique take on character roles (tank, healer, dps, etc...), end game progression and emphasis on massive open world content that only appeals to a minority of MMO players.  GW2 is ultra weak in end-game, instanced group content and anyone expecting GW2 to have what other games provide in raids and dungeons and similar will be very disappointed and the end-game issues is probably what hurts GW2 the most in the long run.

It's alright to disagree and you mustn't compare young kid's adaptive mind with adult mind. I am not saying ALL new players say that but many and also many people this age have very little patience. 

When i came to GW2 from WOW, i knew right away what those POI, HP, RH & vistas were. I accepted RH as a quest, HP as a class skill points, POI as a location discovery/side quest and vistas as Anet's way to show GW2 beauty-&-design.

I also play BDO (5 years now) and i know everything ins & out of it but when i start to explain new players just about a PVP system, i almost hear their brainfart through my screen! with 1 chat at the end "Ok". Next thing i know, within 2 weeks they don't even come play the game anymore when they realise the amount of knowlegde they need to remember (but BDO has Codex and BDO players don't know how to read 😛 ).

It's not that if 1 or few person understands, everyone will understand as well, otherwise world would have been in peace & earth be paradise. It's just seemed very complex as if common is uncommon. I just put myself in every person's shoes and think the way they see things. 

By putting a better way to explain GW2 system that introduces game's system clearly & by providing codex for the game. Wouldn't it make game even more understandable for every kinds of player out there? Wouldn't the game be more fun if players have better a way(codex) to understand the game system so everyone can enjoy the game even more? Wouldn't it be better if the game we love becomes more welcoming to many kinds of players and also provided new system in character system?

and, There is also a room for improvement... 

Just like something is irrelevent for 1 person can be very useful & welcomming for many. 🙂 

[August.5934]

On 3/29/2024 at 3:34 AM, Sweetbread.3678 said:

The espec thing would be nice, but other than that the only thing they really need to do is make it SUPER obvious that /wiki exists right off the bat. Like put in some loading screen hints or something, that's really all that it would take.

Or put a codex icon next to Black lion trading icon with the link "/wiki" and it opens a window inside the game? (basically webpage in the game same as "create shortcut" option provided in google settings)

[:Mind_Blown:] 🤯

[evilcat.6817]

More character customization option would be nice, espcially hairstyle is something easy to do. Also humans could get their own tattos and battlescars, which would be different from Norm. Like Norm tribal, but human religious or army ink.

Tell about elite spec... before new players get anywhere close to elite spec it could take a while, and specs could be gated by expansion. So if someone pick Enginner with the promise they will get green robot, there will be a lot of gameplay without robot, and the robot is gated beyond eod.

Starting zone... hard to tell, my personal experience which is not representive is that players quite fast get the idea to do the hearts in starting zone, maybe catch the meta event if it pop ups, as it is in yelow circle on mini map, and do the story mission. The only missing part is that adventure guide is cool and effiient way to level up, and the game isnt agressive enought of showing hey check this achievments.

Several starting zone could e described as having 1-10 noob part. In fact they generally are layered in 5 level bundles. The norms had literally noob basin, with other races it is more river triangles. I dont like the idea you have this separete limited space, it is more fun to be a part of normal map. Special points for world boss maps, as doing your noob quests and suddenly a big boss appears is definetly great experience.

World Boss Ascalon! We just need world boss on Ascalon map or charr starter zone, so we charr cubs could be wiped by giant monster for proper welcome to the game.

Maybe if character adventurer guide was by default popping up on screen margin, but you could also kill it in options would be a improvment. Getting a text "dodge 3 times for benefit" or especially use your class mechanic or healing skill is not something you will get instantly. You can play a couple levels without touching heal button or class mechanic button.

 

 

Edited April 1 by evilcat.6817