Just Make Guild Wars 3. This Game is Irredeemable

[Yerlock.4678]

It’ll take another 5 years to get another pvp mode. And balance will take 5 years at least also to get to a point where everything competes at a (relatively) even level. 
 

By the time we get the changed “alliances” in wvw in a year or two, it’ll take another massive amount of time to get anything new in PvP that’s worth while.

 

Just make GW3 with unreal 5 engine, not this terrible engine that’s outdated so you can more easily iterate with it, and this time make WvW/PvP true pillars to the game that aren’t tacked on. 

 

PvP will never tower over the big leagues, that chance came and went. It’s time to move on and take another shot at it with GW3.

Here’s a shortlist of goals to have for a new Guild Wars game to make it better than what we have now:

- New Engine. Goes without saying, the current engine is spaghetti code and many of the engineers that worked on it are currently gone.

- A better/ more elaborate UI that can be (at least somewhat) customizable. It doesn’t matter how good your UI is, it won’t work for everyone and having some level of control would help alleviate people’s woes.

- Whatever endgame content you make, it must ALWAYS be supported. This refers to PvP, wvw, any pve endgame content. You can’t abandon ship anymore if things aren’t working out. Pvp needs its own team to focus solely on that, whether its balance or new features/modes.  Right now there’s a few devs solely working on balance for gw2 pvp and that’s great, but for the next game the mode needs constant attention and support all the way through. 
It needs to be fostered and nourished to let the community thrive.

- Ease of accessibility : Making it easy to get into pvp. One idea I had was to make the PvP portion of the gw3 completely free with all specs (or whatever the equivalent is) open to the players. If they want skins and stuff that’s still payed, and the other modes are played. But that way people could jump into PvP more easily. 
 

League of Legends and Dota 2 do this with a proven track record. If you open up the flood gates people and friends can play more easily together without needing every dumb new expansion to enjoy the game.

If that’s too generous than you could do what Smite does and allow players to rent specs to play for a few days, to see if they enjoy them and wanna spend money to buy them (or the expac to buy them).

In any case just opening the doors to more people with a more open model could help a lot with low population numbers. The matchmaker keeps giving us terrible games that are unbalanced because of the low pop, and simply allowing more people to play PvP competitively without all the hassle would help out loads.

-Whatever the combat is, it can’t be daunting for new players. It must be easy to play, hard to master.  Gw2’s combat is definitely a winner, it has the basic formula to compete with the heavy hitters without any question. But the amount of mechanics and new things that have been added over the years would make many a new player squint and take a double glance. Having an easy combat system to get the hang of, but making it difficult to master (like many fighting games) should be a goal. 
 

-Be wary of bloat. Don’t add new systems in combat or other places just because you can. Speaks for itself. Just don’t force players to read a manual over every basic system. And as new things are introduced to the game, don’t add more and more systems just for the fun of it.

Edit: I just learned that GW3 is already greenlit by NCsoft so never mind lol. Continue to make that game and please make the PvP a core competitive feature. Not some tacked on mode like it was with GW2

Edited April 6 by gmmg.9210

[melcor.1094]

If current gw2 devs will make gw3 it will not be any better. Incompetent balance devs with bias towards/ against classes and gamemodes and obviously pure hate towards high skill ceiling/ cap and zero knowledge/ understanding how good, skillful and competitive balance should look like cannot make a good game. And if the casual, no competition, noobcarry game is called gw2 or gw3 will not make much of a difference for competitive gamemodes in the long run. For PvEer it might be some fresh air, they can play throught the 3-5 years of development in 2 months  and then start complaining that they are bored. 

Seems good! 👍

Edited March 29 by melcor.1094

[Nepster.4275]

The balance team should have involve 3rd party to at least suggest balance changes, there are numerous people streaming this game, I am not sure where would it hurt them to ask out their experience/suggestions about certain classes and builds, not saying to implement everything everyone says but somewhat consider changing things, I doubt any streamer has that much bias as CmC with Ele or whoever with Guardian

With a simple math we can sort of figure out if all 9 classes have 3 elite specs with atleast two builds it's (9*3*2) 54 builds they would need to kinda balance not including core builds, and what the balance teams has is 8 or how many people who I doubt are anywhere even close to G1 in terms of skill/knowledge about PvP

The game has a lot of potential, but surely it's going to waste if the balance team does not start to listen to the community...Which as you can guess, it probably going to happen since the whole game will collapse sooner than the balance team acknowledging that they are incapable of holding a fair balance with their knowledge

[jdawgie.1835]

22 hours ago, gmmg.9210 said:

Include all the weapons/specs that we already have, make the world truly open and not many boxed in feeling inst

Bro this spoke to my soul - I have always HATED THIS about this game. It feels like were on a console. Its HORRIBLE. My Sky scale shouldnt hit an invisable wall where I am forced into a portal to change maps or use a WP. I want to be able to fly from 1 side of the map to other. Continents should be traveled too. Remove the way point system. Create a recall system like ESO if its needed. 

22 hours ago, gmmg.9210 said:

Edit: I just learned that GW3 is already greenlit by NCsoft so never mind lol. Continue to make that game and please make the PvP a core competitive feature. Not some tacked on mode like it was with GW2

Is this real? 

[Vancho.8750]

3 hours ago, Nepster.4275 said:

The balance team should have involve 3rd party to at least suggest balance changes, there are numerous people streaming this game, I am not sure where would it hurt them to ask out their experience/suggestions about certain classes and builds, not saying to implement everything everyone says but somewhat consider changing things, I doubt any streamer has that much bias as CmC with Ele or whoever with Guardian

With a simple math we can sort of figure out if all 9 classes have 3 elite specs with atleast two builds it's (9*3*2) 54 builds they would need to kinda balance not including core builds, and what the balance teams has is 8 or how many people who I doubt are anywhere even close to G1 in terms of skill/knowledge about PvP

The game has a lot of potential, but surely it's going to waste if the balance team does not start to listen to the community...Which as you can guess, it probably going to happen since the whole game will collapse sooner than the balance team acknowledging that they are incapable of holding a fair balance with their knowledge

They did the 3rd party thing that is why the game sucks. The balance is based on the MAT and the one trick "pros", This is the reason the game gets all these cringe META  everything builds . 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

On 3/29/2024 at 1:27 PM, jdawgie.1835 said:

Is this real? 

It was in a NCSoft meeting release that was translated by teh googlez. It has been 'greenlit' but only that far. Also, their NCSoft West holdings have all been consolidated into ArenaNet, but have not been turning a profit. Despite not turning a profit they are happy with the consolidation.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

42 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It was in a NCSoft meeting release that was translated by teh googlez. It has been 'greenlit' but only that far. Also, their NCSoft West holdings have all been consolidated into ArenaNet, but have not been turning a profit. Despite not turning a profit they are happy with the consolidation.

Arenanet carrying the mmo scene that's wild

Tracks though, most respectful business model out of the bunch.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

54 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Arenanet carrying the mmo scene that's wild

Tracks though, most respectful business model out of the bunch.

Still, NCSoft West is apparently losing money even with that considered.

[Xbon.9086]

I believe the game's been going in the wrong direction since they started doing all the living world stuff instead of focusing on the overworld content & expansions to expand on that, Path of Fire was the last good expac IMO... So I'm glad they're starting with a blank slate with Guild Wars 3 which has already been announced by NCSoft to be in development afaik.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Watch GW3 have no competitive game modes.

[bethekey.8314]

I think I've suggested it before and know others have, but I wish they'd bring back the class hybridization mechanic. Like having a Warrior + Guardian, where your core set of skills is Warrior but you can have Guardian utilities etc.

Creates interesting diversity, helps balance the game naturally if more people can use the same skills, and builds broad knowledge across the playerbase--so people don't complain about things that aren't truly issues as much.

Good on Anet though for apparently being viewed favorably by their parent.

[Nilkemia.8507]

PvP is irredeemable, not Guild Wars 2. Making a sequel now would solve nothing. And, while this is my uninformed opinion, relying on another company's game engine is not a good idea in the long term. Example : Unity.

[jdawgie.1835]

2 hours ago, Nilkemia.8507 said:

PvP is irredeemable, not Guild Wars 2. Making a sequel now would solve nothing. And, while this is my uninformed opinion, relying on another company's game engine is not a good idea in the long term. Example : Unity.

Bro chill out on the pvp hate. 4 Posts in a row. We get it. You like to pve. Here's the thing though Andy - by asking for a 1/3 of the game to be forgotten you're ruining the same game you claim to love. Also FYI GW2 was designed as a PvP Centric game. 

"pvP gEts wHAt it dEseRVes" 

Edited April 2 by jdawgie.1835

[Yerlock.4678]

12 minutes ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

Bro chill out on the pvp hate. 4 Posts in a row. We get it. You like to pve. Here's the thing though Andy - by asking for a 1/3 of the game to be forgotten you're ruining the same game you claim to love. Also FYI GW2 was designed as a PvP Centric game. 

"pvP gEts wHAt it dEseRVes" 

Anet definitely failed pvp, not the other way around. The potential was all there but they squandered it by not nurturing pvp and not iterating, and trying to force ESL to work before it was ready. Anet has this obsession with making things perfect or abandoning it all together. And because they gave up on pvp modes after HoT, the community shriveled up and moved on. 

The pop is low because of anet, not because the game or community is inherently bad. If they make pvp in Gw3 (and I think they should) they need to fully commit to that mode and nurture it with features and customization, as well as balance. Not just throw the baby out with the bath water if it isn't working out.

[jdawgie.1835]

11 hours ago, gmmg.9210 said:

Anet definitely failed pvp, not the other way around. The potential was all there but they squandered it by not nurturing pvp and not iterating, and trying to force ESL to work before it was ready. Anet has this obsession with making things perfect or abandoning it all together. And because they gave up on pvp modes after HoT, the community shriveled up and moved on. 

The pop is low because of anet, not because the game or community is inherently bad. If they make pvp in Gw3 (and I think they should) they need to fully commit to that mode and nurture it with features and customization, as well as balance. Not just throw the baby out with the bath water if it isn't working out.

Amen Brother.

I'll ask you though - how aware of this do you think they are? I think its not even the same dev team. Also regarding the other guys comments about the engine - this was a new engine for GW2 versus GW1 when it launched. I remember thinking how beautiful the game was in 2012. Truely amazing. However - they dont have all the proper access to the engine from the original devs - which is why "spaghetti code" is constantly referenced. So a new engine would be mandatory to upkeep with graphical expectations of the generation and be able to have full access to the game their developing. As I understand it they dont have that as it stands with GW2. I could be wrong - this was heresy I was told. So I have no factual basis for this. 

[Khalisto.5780]

spvp is so abandoned that they just might release gw3 with pve and wvw

[Yerlock.4678]

52 minutes ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

spvp is so abandoned that they just might release gw3 with pve and wvw

I hope not:(

[Yerlock.4678]

3 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

Amen Brother.

I'll ask you though - how aware of this do you think they are? I think its not even the same dev team. Also regarding the other guys comments about the engine - this was a new engine for GW2 versus GW1 when it launched. I remember thinking how beautiful the game was in 2012. Truely amazing. However - they dont have all the proper access to the engine from the original devs - which is why "spaghetti code" is constantly referenced. So a new engine would be mandatory to upkeep with graphical expectations of the generation and be able to have full access to the game their developing. As I understand it they dont have that as it stands with GW2. I could be wrong - this was heresy I was told. So I have no factual basis for this. 

Yeah the engine is definitely a bit scrambled since many of the engineers have moved to different places since then. It’s the same problem 343 has with their blam engine. Both companies ironically have moved to unreal, and I think it’ll help in both cases. 
I can only speculate if they’ve truly learned from the previous devs mistakes (or their own mistakes if they were still there at the time).

It might also be an entirely different team working on Gw3, as opposed to the people we know working on Gw2. It’s just impossible to know.

I think learning from Gw2’s mistakes, mainly not iterating and having too much bloat in the game, is a good outline for how they can have a rough outline for Gw3. They honestly don’t need to reinvent the wheel like they did from Gw1 to Gw2. But it’s their game so who knows what will happen lol. All we can say is what we’d like and not like from a new game. 🤞 

[KingJake.6529]

Hopefuly they focus on making gw3 pvp with good foundations and fun,  rather than hastly  trying to implement them on the fly and flop like how they did with gw2

[Yerlock.4678]

56 minutes ago, KingJake.6529 said:

Hopefuly they focus on making gw3 pvp with good foundations and fun,  rather than hastly  trying to implement them on the fly and flop like how they did with gw2

Yeah for sure, just making it fun and continuously supporting it (like a live service game is supposed to).

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

PvP needs 2 things:

1: no AFKing during a match. If anyone AFKs, the match ends and no stats get recorded. And/or there needs to be separate solo Q and team Q. Team Q'ers and solo Q'ers never fight each other, period.

2: a server that doesn't allow any client side cheating. People hack their clients to add their invulnerability or teleport hacks or whatever cheat they want to use. If it's not on the server, it doesn't go through. IE, if someone uses an invulnerability hack, they still take full damage because the hack isn't on the server. If they try to Teleport hack, they can't because the command doesn't link with code on the server.

Item 2 should apply to the whole game, every single game mode.

PS: it is my opinion that PVP was killed by PVPers with their constant cheating, win-trading, and AFKing. A New game won't solve any of that.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, gmmg.9210 said:

Yeah for sure, just making it fun and continuously supporting it (like a live service game is supposed to).

I feel like the good business decision for mmos going forward would not include attempting to tame the ever shifting demands of a competitive playerbase and just ship a game people enjoy coming home after their job to play. I highly doubt GW3, if it is a separate stand alone entity, would be as welcoming to competitive players. 

I also disagree with the opening post. This game's far from irredeemable, and a good portion of the balance changes have been suitable as of late. It still needs lots of work, but I think it's very doable. People still play Melee and Third strike; heck, people still play WoW. 

Quote

PS: it is my opinion that PVP was killed by PVPers with their constant cheating, win-trading, and AFKing. A New game won't solve any of that.

I tend to agree with this. The problem with PvP is pretty largely balance, but it is not insignificantly also due to the attitudes past balance neglect has spawned.

Edited April 2 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[bethekey.8314]

5 hours ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

 

PS: it is my opinion that PVP was killed by PVPers with their constant cheating, win-trading, and AFKing. A New game won't solve any of that.

Some traits are always present among people. If a bad actor can manipulate a system for their gain, they will, often to the detriment of the community as a whole. Tragedy of the commons. For this reason, I don't think you can blame the PvP population and expect them to govern themselves. That's the developer's job.

Anet has enabled bad actors multiple times and effectively removed community building tools from relevance. People found wintrading, selling/sharing accounts, and hacking don't nearly get strong enough punishments. Manipulating queues with character swapping, friends lists, and duos is still doable. Matchmaking is WAY too loose with rating to provide consistently good games and indiscriminately punishes good players for the PvP sins of their bad teammates. Continuous lobbies with spectator mode were displaced by unranked and FFA, removing the places where PvP community is built and people learn.

Many of the above issues were conscious decisions on Anet's part. Streamers that draw attention to the game are given lesser punishments. Duos are in the name of friendship. Class matching by the matchmaker is meant to improve fairness etc.

That being said, PvP is a core part of any "living" game. It's a stopgap between content. It was literally "end game" for early GW2. Players evolve in ways NPCs (currently) don't and fights remain fresh longer. People naturally WANT to fight/compete against each other directly, not through PvE logs. I think it would be foolish to not include PvP in any new MMO.

Edited April 3 by bethekey.8314

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

24 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Some traits are always present among people. If a bad actor can manipulate a system for their gain, they will, often to the detriment of the community as a whole. Tragedy of the commons. For this reason, I don't think you can blame the PvP population and expect them to govern themselves. That's the developer's job.

Anet has enabled bad actors multiple times and effectively removed community building tools from relevance. People found wintrading, selling/sharing accounts, and hacking don't nearly get strong enough punishments. Manipulating queues with character swapping, friends lists, and duos is still doable. Matchmaking is WAY too loose with rating to provide consistently good games and indiscriminately punishes good players for the PvP sins of their bad teammates. Continuous lobbies with spectator mode were displaced by unranked and FFA, removing the places where PvP community is built and people learn.

Many of the above issues were conscious decisions on Anet's part. Streamers that draw attention to the game are given lesser punishments. Duos are in the name of friendship. Class matching by the matchmaker is meant improve fairness etc.

That being said, PvP is a core part of any "living" game. It's a stopgap between content. It was literally "end game" for early GW2. Players evolve in ways NPCs (currently) don't and fights remain fresh longer. People naturally WANT to fight/compete against each other directly, not through PvE logs. I think it would be foolish to not include PvP in any new MMO.

Some would say that silence or lack of action on the dev's part is implicit allowance of the activity to continue. The devs should do better. They certainly do when it affects their precious endgame PvE instances.

[jdawgie.1835]

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I feel like the good business decision for mmos going forward would not include attempting to tame the ever shifting demands of a competitive playerbase and just ship a game people enjoy coming home after their job to play. I highly doubt GW3, if it is a separate stand alone entity, would be as welcoming to competitive players. 

So you think good business is to launch the game with no pvp? Want to make sure I understand this statement.