Jade Tech Offensive & Defensive Overcharge Timers Incorrect & Excessive [Merged]

[Mysteriez.1479]

On 4/28/2024 at 7:47 PM, Echostorm.9143 said:

I agree soto mobs feel even more over powered but beyond keeping up with mob difficulty, I would argue that the pre-nerf Jade Protocols actually had significant benefits, especially for open world players, casual players, and players with disabilities:

1. Accessibility: For players with physical disabilities or chronic pain that make extended combat sessions or long rotations difficult, the pre-nerf Jade Protocols made it much more feasible to engage with open world content by reducing the time and effort required for fights. This improved accessibility and allowed a wider range of players to fully participate.

2. Casual-friendly: Many casual players have limited time to play and want to focus on exploration, story, and other open world activities rather than extended combat. The previous Jade Protocol buffs helped them move through zones and complete events more efficiently, making the game more enjoyable for those with busier schedules.

3. Soloability: The Jade Protocols made it easier for players to solo group events and bosses in the open world that might otherwise be very challenging or require waiting for other players to show up. This was a huge quality-of-life improvement for solo open world players.

4. Build diversity: You mention that pre-EoD, getting such a wide range of buffs required a dedicated support or boon-sharing build, limiting build diversity. But the Jade Protocols actually enabled more build diversity by giving all builds easy access to strong boons, allowing players to experiment with a wider variety of open world builds.

5. Keeping open world maps populated.  If you suddenly make open world less appealing to a large subset of dedicated players, you'll see fewer commanders, fewer mentors, fewer people to help out with events and metas.

Saying veteran players will forget is puzzling as it is the veteran players who have had the most time to use and get used to this feature.  They feel the sting more than anyone.  If some players, like you, felt like they were 'cheating' then they have the option not to use them but we should not take happiness from others.

Rather than being unbalanced or overpowered, I would argue the original Jade Protocols were a well-designed system that made open world content more accessible, convenient, and fun for a large portion of the playerbase.  The nerfs have drastically reduced their relevance and usefulness.  The change should be rolled back.

I apologize for failing to convey my thoughts correctly. I was a bit too narrowly focused on the idea of "what reasons could have led the developers to introduce Jade Protocols, and were they actually needed at the time", and completely forgot to mention what they became to the player community, simply because I didn't think that most of these were intended by the devs.
That, of course, doesn't change that all of the points you mention are valid -- not least of which the question of accessibility. Losing Jade Protocols of course would have impacted that category of players.

As for veteran players, what I meant by "forget" was that, if no change was made, outrage would simmer down into resent, and then the majority of veterans would simply not use Jade Protocols at all anymore - not literally forget, but no longer engage with it. That was what I intended to convey -- with the implied message that an actual game mechanic, which at least some time must have been spent on to design and implement, would go completely unused by pretty much the entire playerbase. That just seems sad -- for both the players and the developers.

I was one of those veteran players that used Jade Protocols on a daily basis -- when I came out of my personal instance, I did bother to TP to Arborstone and get the full 2 hours of buffs, because it really did take away most of the grind-y feeling open-world maps can give when you're doing your daily tasks. Combat no longer halted you for very long, you just moved faster, completed events and hearts more quickly (again, if new players struggled to get participation on some events, my opinion is that the proper response should have been to consider changing the dynamic scaling of these events). That left you more time and energy to consider engaging with more draining content -- like doing metas, for instance.
The nerf came and basically said "the way it worked before was a bug" -- thus why I now feel a little like the way I used it was "cheating" according to the actual developers. I didn't feel like that before the nerf, and I do actually miss the way it worked before.

I'll try not to mention builds and balancing again -- I'm not experienced enough with actually constructing builds to comment on that, and anyway from the outside, it seems mostly a matter of opinion. I was trying not to dismiss the concerns of those to whom that is an important part of the game, which I imagine would also be a concern of the devs.

[Deadringers.9047]

17 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hey everyone, I've been keeping an eye on this conversation and talking to several people on the team about this change. I want to let you know first that we will be making an adjustment in an upcoming build to reduce the cooldown from 90 seconds to 30 seconds.

To give some context on this change and what led to it, jade tech offensive and defensive protocol effects are intended to give players a temporary boost of power at the start of combat, not to maintain those boons permanently—which invalidates many skills, traits, relics, and so on.

We also discovered a bug associated with players having both effects at the same time in a particular order, which allowed players to apply the full duration of both boons on demand in certain situations. In the April 16 game update, when we corrected the issue, we also adjusted the cooldown to more accurately reflect the intent for the jade tech protocol effects.

However, the change to 90 seconds didn't account for smaller, shorter skirmishes, so while we will not reintroduce the bug that prevented the cooldown, we will revert the cooldown to 30 seconds.

Thank you as always for continuing to share your feedback!

Thank you for getting back to us on this.

While it's not the exact result we wanted (no CD), I think it's a much fairer result than the 90 seconds CD which is currently on it. 

 

 

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

30s is much more useable. 90s was way too much. Specially in SotO where enemies are overly condi heavy and having specifically the defensive buffs can help a lot for classes with low condi cleanse options. 

I do still hope that one day, the trigger on fall damage will be removed, but now you're not waiting 90 seconds before you can tackle a larger group of SotO mobs on a glass canon anymore. Ty for respecting our time with this change

[simple jack.3592]

On 4/30/2024 at 2:30 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hey everyone, I've been keeping an eye on this conversation and talking to several people on the team about this change. I want to let you know first that we will be making an adjustment in an upcoming build to reduce the cooldown from 90 seconds to 30 seconds.

To give some context on this change and what led to it, jade tech offensive and defensive protocol effects are intended to give players a temporary boost of power at the start of combat, not to maintain those boons permanently—which invalidates many skills, traits, relics, and so on.

We also discovered a bug associated with players having both effects at the same time in a particular order, which allowed players to apply the full duration of both boons on demand in certain situations. In the April 16 game update, when we corrected the issue, we also adjusted the cooldown to more accurately reflect the intent for the jade tech protocol effects.

However, the change to 90 seconds didn't account for smaller, shorter skirmishes, so while we will not reintroduce the bug that prevented the cooldown, we will revert the cooldown to 30 seconds.

Thank you as always for continuing to share your feedback!

I find it interesting that seven months ago there was a silent change that increased the amount of time it took to get the overcharge. At this time it seems to me that  someone was clearly looking at protocols back then and decided to up the time to receive the overcharge. You commented that it was being looked into but that was it as far as I can tell. Why was there no mention of them having a bug or not performing as they should at that time?? I am just curious as to why seven months later suddenly things are changed. 

[Timey.6853]

I appreciate the response on all of this. 30s will be a lot more manageable; that said, the one thing I might suggest is to add some sort of visible indicator of the time remaining on the cooldown; otherwise it will be very easy to misjudge/miscount the time left and jump into combat expecting it, only for it to be a few seconds early and now you're out of luck for the entire encounter since they can only trigger at the start. Even just something in the popup when you mouse over the protocols would be enough, I think. That's just my last two cents on the topic, though.

[Echostorm.9143]

On 4/30/2024 at 3:30 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hey everyone, I've been keeping an eye on this conversation and talking to several people on the team about this change. I want to let you know first that we will be making an adjustment in an upcoming build to reduce the cooldown from 90 seconds to 30 seconds.

To give some context on this change and what led to it, jade tech offensive and defensive protocol effects are intended to give players a temporary boost of power at the start of combat, not to maintain those boons permanently—which invalidates many skills, traits, relics, and so on.

We also discovered a bug associated with players having both effects at the same time in a particular order, which allowed players to apply the full duration of both boons on demand in certain situations. In the April 16 game update, when we corrected the issue, we also adjusted the cooldown to more accurately reflect the intent for the jade tech protocol effects.

However, the change to 90 seconds didn't account for smaller, shorter skirmishes, so while we will not reintroduce the bug that prevented the cooldown, we will revert the cooldown to 30 seconds.

Thank you as always for continuing to share your feedback!

@Rubi Bayer.8493 Thank you for replying.  Could you elaborate on how this bug could be seemingly ignored for over 2 years.  It is a pretty obvious effect and it seems incredible that Anet could have been ignorant of its existence not just in the immediate aftermath of its implementation when many more eyes would have been on major new systems but for the long years that followed. 

Was there any care or concern about taking away a feature with such a long history and such a potent effect on open world play that players had reasonably come to count on to help with tougher mobs, build diversity and physical / mental disabilities? 

 

PS.  Those leaving Confused ratings.  Please do let me know what part of this is confusing to you and I can attempt to clarify my questions.

Edited May 2 by Echostorm.9143
Apparent Confusion

[raykor.6723]

On 4/29/2024 at 2:43 AM, Spellman.4719 said:

It's been almost two weeks since ANET completely ruined a core EoD feature. For  two weeks now they neither address this issue, nor do they have the gall to even talk to us. After all, we are all customers and we have paid for this feature back in the days, so we are entitled to at least some explanation what is the logic behind this really bad change and why was it imperative.

Two weeks is nothing. Eight months ago they removed dozens of effects from the old rune system and have yet to comment on whether or not they will ever return in future relics.

[Sjentra.3409]

On 5/2/2024 at 10:24 AM, Echostorm.9143 said:

@Rubi Bayer.8493 Thank you for replying.  Could you elaborate on how this bug could be seemingly ignored for over 2 years.  It is a pretty obvious effect and it seems incredible that Anet could have been ignorant of its existence not just in the immediate aftermath of its implementation when many more eyes would have been on major new systems but for the long years that followed. 

Was there any care or concern about taking away a feature with such a long history and such a potent effect on open world play that players had reasonably come to count on to help with tougher mobs, build diversity and physical / mental disabilities? 

 

PS.  Those leaving Confused ratings.  Please do let me know what part of this is confusing to you and I can attempt to clarify my questions.

My guess is it's the same reason they fixed the skyscale "bug" where you couldn't dismount while in air; which we now know why they were looking at it; was because of Sota. 

So probably the next expansion will have something to do with the jade tech bot

[Ipomoea Jalapa.6897]

Thank you @Rubi Bayer.8493 for taking the time to address our feedback. This seems fair, essentially restoring the original intention of the overcharges.

[Mitsurugi Lp.6320]

Good evening,

So as many of you know there was a change to when the boons start to be reapplied on the jade techs. I loved this function because it made me go back to open-world roaming get buffs, and quickly dispose of anything in front of me but when it was time for a prolonged battle like Teq or Claw of Jormag I just had to rely on my usual skills/buffs without the added boons which wasn't bad at all. I somewhat understand why the cooldown is what it is now, but I also paid and spent time to get these "special little" bonuses and was wondering if anyone felt the same. 

[Bunny.9834]

7 minutes ago, Mitsurugi Lp.6320 said:

Good evening,

So as many of you know there was a change to when the boons start to be reapplied on the jade techs. I loved this function because it made me go back to open-world roaming get buffs, and quickly dispose of anything in front of me but when it was time for a prolonged battle like Teq or Claw of Jormag I just had to rely on my usual skills/buffs without the added boons which wasn't bad at all. I somewhat understand why the cooldown is what it is now, but I also paid and spent time to get these "special little" bonuses and was wondering if anyone felt the same. 

I've been torn with the idea of the protocols for a while. 

On one hand, they make life easy because of the boon access. I even proposed they added these protocols in the Jade Sea Pavillion to make it easier to access them + incentivize players to buy the pass. This was knowing they wouldn't go away or get nerfed to the ground... well I was wrong. 

On the other hand, I would rather they give access to the special boons like quickness and alacrity to Traits and Skills only. This is to promote a more active gameply and ACTUAL knowledge of the combat system rather than the one stop shop button. 

I think they should just keep the stat buff. 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

I mean, if it let you play snowcrows builds in Openworld because you got all boons for free, that seems kinda overpowered. 

Not having to build craft Openworld builds. 

It's essential something that should have never been in the game in the first place and is now a Feelsbadman moment for everyone who (ab)used it. 

Which is understandable. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

58 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I mean, if it let you play snowcrows builds in Openworld because you got all boons for free, that seems kinda overpowered. 

Not having to build craft Openworld builds. 

It's essential something that should have never been in the game in the first place and is now a Feelsbadman moment for everyone who (ab)used it. 

Which is understandable. 

It was a really odd choice for a game that is open world-centric.  What's the point of buildcrafting if you can just get the most important benefits covered for free?  I really hope they stop doing this.

[Manpag.6421]

7 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

It was a really odd choice for a game that is open world-centric.  What's the point of buildcrafting if you can just get the most important benefits covered for free?  I really hope they stop doing this.

Let's be honest: the majority of players who buildcraft and put a lot of thought into gear, boons, and rotations were not using these protocols. If they were, it was just to min-max by getting the stat bonuses, making the nerf inconsequential to the top % of players providing the highest DPS with or without them because they were probably bringing their own key boons anyway.

This was a nerf to low—mid skill players, who either don't understand all that or aren't willing to engage with it. GW2 is meant to be a casual-friendly game, especially in open world, so I don't say that as a judgement on them; low DPS matters little in all but a handful of harder events. In short, it makes the game a little less friendly to those who might be struggling with it already, and cuts down open world variety because that was (and should be) the place you can play the silliest, most gimmicky non-viable builds you want without feeling like you're being punished for it or ruining the game for anyone else.

I guess it's a good thing for people selling Glyphs of Industry; the supply has almost halved since April, and the price has gone up by 10g. I'm willing to bet not being able to easily proc quickness for gathering has played a part in that...

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 minute ago, Manpag.6421 said:

Let's be honest: the majority of players who buildcraft and put a lot of thought into gear, boons, and rotations were not using these protocols. If they were, it was just to min-max by getting the stat bonuses, making the nerf inconsequential to the top % of players providing the highest DPS with or without them because they were probably bringing their own key boons anyway.

This was a nerf to low—mid skill players, who either don't understand all that or aren't willing to engage with it. GW2 is meant to be a casual-friendly game, especially in open world, so I don't say that as a judgement on them; low DPS matters little in all but a handful of harder events. In short, it makes the game a little less friendly to those who might be struggling with it already, and cuts down open world variety because that was (and should be) the place you can play the silliest, most gimmicky non-viable builds you want without feeling like you're being punished for it or ruining the game for anyone else.

I guess it's a good thing for people selling Glyphs of Industry; the supply has almost halved since April, and the price has gone up by 10g. I'm willing to bet not being able to easily proc quickness for gathering has played a part in that...

I understand where you're coming from, but "Why don't you just tie one hand behind your back if you want a challenge?" has never made for sound game design.  For me, jade tech protocols crossed a line that never should have been crossed.  So, just sharing my opinion here that nerfing jade tech protocols was the right move (although if I had my way they'd remove the boons and replace them with something that isn't combat relevant) and they should not add effects like this moving forward. 

One of the positives of horizontal progression is that open world buildcraft is always relevant. Those choices matter.  Adding huge direct power buffs that obviate the need for some of the more important choices you can make in buildcrafting erodes that. 

[Echostorm.9143]

4 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I understand where you're coming from, but "Why don't you just tie one hand behind your back if you want a challenge?" has never made for sound game design.  For me, jade tech protocols crossed a line that never should have been crossed.  So, just sharing my opinion here that nerfing jade tech protocols was the right move (although if I had my way they'd remove the boons and replace them with something that isn't combat relevant) and they should not add effects like this moving forward. 

One of the positives of horizontal progression is that open world buildcraft is always relevant. Those choices matter.  Adding huge direct power buffs that obviate the need for some of the more important choices you can make in buildcrafting erodes that. 

 

I respectfully disagree. While I understand your concern about maintaining the relevance and challenge of open world buildcrafting, I believe that the Jade Protocols added an exciting layer of customization and player choice without fundamentally undermining the game's balance or design philosophy(which is famously undefined).

Firstly, the comparison to "tying one hand behind your back" is a false equivalence. The Jade Protocols were an optional system that players could engage with to enhance their gameplay experience, not a mandatory handicap. Players who preferred a more challenging experience were free to ignore the system entirely, while those who enjoyed the additional options and power it provided could opt-in.

Furthermore, the idea that the Jade Protocols "crossed a line that never should have been crossed" is subjective and fails to consider the perspectives of players who found the system engaging and rewarding. Many players enjoyed the ability to fine-tune their builds and experiment with playstyles enabled by the Jade Protocols. Removing or drastically altering the system risks alienating a portion of the playerbase who appreciated the added depth and customization.

It's also worth noting that the impact of the Jade Protocols on open world buildcrafting has been overstated. While the boons provided by the system were certainly powerful, they did not "obviate the need" for careful buildcrafting. Players still had to make meaningful choices about their traits, gear, and utilities to create effective and synergistic builds. The Jade Protocols simply added another layer of optimization on top of those core decisions.

Moreover, the Jade Protocols were particularly beneficial for players with disabilities or those who prefer to play solo. The boons provided by the system helped to level the playing field and make the open world more accessible to a wider range of players. In group content like raids and fractals, players can rely on their teammates to provide important boons and support. However, in the open world, players are often left to fend for themselves. The Jade Protocols helped to bridge that gap and make solo play more viable and enjoyable.

It's important to recognize that the Jade Protocols have been a part of the game for over two years now.  If the system was truly problematic, one has to question why it took ArenaNet so long to address it. The fact that they are only now taking action suggests that the Jade Protocols were not as game-breaking as some might claim.

In conclusion, the decision to nerf the Jade Protocols is a misguided attempt to solve a problem that doesn't exist. The system added depth, customization, and accessibility to the game without fundamentally undermining its balance or design philosophy.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

14 hours ago, Manpag.6421 said:

Let's be honest: the majority of players who buildcraft and put a lot of thought into gear, boons, and rotations were not using these protocols. If they were, it was just to min-max by getting the stat bonuses, making the nerf inconsequential to the top % of players providing the highest DPS with or without them because they were probably bringing their own key boons anyway.

This was a nerf to low—mid skill players, who either don't understand all that or aren't willing to engage with it. GW2 is meant to be a casual-friendly game, especially in open world, so I don't say that as a judgement on them; low DPS matters little in all but a handful of harder events. In short, it makes the game a little less friendly to those who might be struggling with it already, and cuts down open world variety because that was (and should be) the place you can play the silliest, most gimmicky non-viable builds you want without feeling like you're being punished for it or ruining the game for anyone else.

I guess it's a good thing for people selling Glyphs of Industry; the supply has almost halved since April, and the price has gone up by 10g. I'm willing to bet not being able to easily proc quickness for gathering has played a part in that...

But, if low to mid level players can destroy everything in Openworld just by pressing F a few times, why should they learn and improve? 

Even the best Openworld build struggles to keep up the most important boons. For example, I lose 21% dmg from not taking Berserker's power, 5% for not running Relic of the thief and even more dmg by running a Boon Duration rune instead of scholar.

All that dmg loss just to keep up 4 boons. 

And I actually have to do something to keep up the boons. Not just passively getting them. 

Meanwhile, with the protocols, you can just run full Unga bunga without downsides. 

You give players a "I win" button in one of the easiest Openworld games and people wonder why so many can't seem to break the 5k dps barrier without it. 

[Echostorm.9143]

12 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

But, if low to mid level players can destroy everything in Openworld just by pressing F a few times, why should they learn and improve? 

Even the best Openworld build struggles to keep up the most important boons. For example, I lose 21% dmg from not taking Berserker's power, 5% for not running Relic of the thief and even more dmg by running a Boon Duration rune instead of scholar.

All that dmg loss just to keep up 4 boons. 

And I actually have to do something to keep up the boons. Not just passively getting them. 

Meanwhile, with the protocols, you can just run full Unga bunga without downsides. 

You give players a "I win" button in one of the easiest Openworld games and people wonder why so many can't seem to break the 5k dps barrier without it. 

While it's understandable to have concerns there are several counterpoints to consider:

1. Accessibility: The Jade Protocol buffs make the open world more accessible to a wider range of players, including those with less experience or skill. This can help attract and retain players who might otherwise find the game too challenging or time-consuming.

2. Progression: Even with the Jade Protocol buffs, players still need to progress through the game, acquire gear, and learn their class mechanics to be effective. The buffs do not negate the need for player progression and learning.

3. Endgame content: The Jade Protocol buffs primarily affect open world content, which is not the primary focus for many endgame players. Challenging group content, such as raids and strikes, still requires players to optimize their builds and perform well to succeed.

4. Build diversity: While the Jade Protocol buffs may encourage some players to focus on damage-oriented builds, there is still room for build diversity in the open world. Players can still choose to focus on support, utility, or survivability, depending on their playstyle and preferences.

5. Player choice: Ultimately, players have the choice to use or not use the Jade Protocol buffs. Those who want a more challenging experience can choose to play without them, while those who prefer a more relaxed playstyle can benefit from their effects.

In summary, while the Jade Protocol buffs may have some impact on player skill and build diversity, they also provide benefits in terms of accessibility, player choice, and overall game enjoyment. It's important to consider the larger context and the varying needs of the player base when evaluating the impact of these buffs.  It's also important to recognize that players have different goals and ways of enjoying Guild Wars 2. Some may prioritize challenge and skill development, while others may focus on exploration, socialization, or simply having a relaxing gaming experience. The Jade Protocol buffs do not inherently harm players who prefer a more challenging playstyle, as they can choose not to use them. Projecting one's own preferences and expectations onto others is unfair and unkind.
 

[Tofu.1865]

On 4/26/2024 at 11:58 AM, Zekent.3652 said:

Absolute terrible change, the boons CDs should reset after EACH COMBAT, like it used to be.

True, just a little bit of fall damage or a lil bit of damage before u engage fight and u gotta wait for another 90 sec lol

If they cant revert the changes make it atleast 6 hours and timers pauses if we enter instances instead of it being removed.

[fatihso.7258]

@Rubi Bayer.8493 Would you consider adding a gemstore gizmo to refresh protocols for a convenience?

[Moonfang.6087]

On 5/1/2024 at 3:30 AM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

However, the change to 90 seconds didn't account for smaller, shorter skirmishes, so while we will not reintroduce the bug that prevented the cooldown, we will revert the cooldown to 30 seconds.

Thank you as always for continuing to share your feedback!

Oh come on, falling damage, environment damage or others we don't want to get still trigger the cooldown and make no benefit.

Ok, there is a easy way for making a more fair open world, please reduce all the health of the enemies after EoD, especially SotO.

All the open world enemies after EoD are too strong and make annoying.

I believe this is the real consensus of everyone

[Luki Hofi.9058]

i would prefere to not have to use gems but,
I would still buy it and put it into a shared slot.

note 1:
no power charges since that would make the item useless and every hardcore protocol user would still be teleporting to the same 2 spots in EOD(they have both protocol stations nearby and enough batteries for full stacking) like before.

note 2:
pls no cooldown. No micro managment would be nice.

Edited May 15 by Luki Hofi.9058

[Tofu.1865]

Passives likes this doesnt get affected by Jade Tech Overcharges and Reinforced Armor stats, is it normal?? 

https://imgur.com/a/IgXh8xj
 

[Carnius Magius.8091]

On 4/27/2024 at 6:50 AM, Tuna Bandit.3786 said:

The changes are horrible... Cooldown sure... 90 seconds is excessive. 

It would be slightly better if they only triggered on litteral combat.
- You drop a centimeter too high: in combat: triggered
- You briefly touch lava, quicksand etc etc: triggered
All situations you do NOT want it triggered, because you now have the 90 second cooldown.

So no, the cost is no longer worth it.

Cost: Cantha is way out there. Teleport fees are excessive from Cantha back to Central Tyria, Crystal Desert or Heart/Horn of Maguuma. 
Using Mistlock Sanctuary or Guild Hall? They get deleted.
(It also puzzles me why they introduce such feature, yet ONLY have those things stand in Cantha maps) 

So no, since the change, I have not touched them at all - as before I regularly used them on classes I have low boon generation on.
It is - to me - a Deleted feature now.

Some things that might impove it:

- Dont delete while using Guild Halls or VIP areas - tag them differently from instanced combat areas - if too hard to realize:
- Availability outside of Cantha (including batteries)
- No trigger on Non Combat damage like fall damage, enviromental damage
- More reasonable Cooldown 

The 90 second cooldown is excessive. One snipe while riding a mount renders the defensive buff useless because in most cases, it is activated before you get a chance to need it.