Oh, to be a Thief main

[bethekey.8314]

2 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

you mistake, was not dodging, after eating Cloack and Dagger.  

Believe it or not.  but that was the mistake that lead to the 10k burst.

Just now, Sahne.6950 said:

im 100% certain you are trolling.   

That guy couldnt even kill you, and you are here crying xD

Hey bud, I'm off to bed. Idk why you're continuing with the 3x post combo and insults.

If this is what you think, and how you play, more power to you. I welcome your videos where you predict Steals from Thieves you don't know exist in the FFA and always dodge the followup with 100+ ping. If you look closer at the video you can see me dodging pretty much when the 5k hits.

I just hope you apply these strict criteria to Thieves when you judge how they use their skills. Honestly, I think if I had perfect reactions, foresight, and 11 evades at my disposal, I would be OP. Can't all be Sahne apparently.

6 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Then explain to me, what other option a s/d thief has to survive, besides chaining dodges.

Explain your train of thought.

What do you want anet to do here?      nerf the fk outta sword?      Whats the plan?

This is a better and fair line of questions. Start off with this next time instead of being rude without warrant. Maybe we'll get to it if one of you can even put your Thief egos aside and admit the evade display in the video is unhealthy/degenerate.

[Dadnir.5038]

Maybe, the OP just don't use the right tools to face thief? I mean, it's not like as an engineer they don't have access to tools that would make this thief's life almost unbearable.

[Shagie.7612]

if teef players had their way they'd be the meta defining class again just like they were for most of the game's life

the team with the better one wins, nothing else matters

[Sahne.6950]

22 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Hey bud, I'm off to bed. Idk why you're continuing with the 3x post combo and insults.

If this is what you think, and how you play, more power to you. I welcome your videos where you predict Steals from Thieves you don't know exist in the FFA and always dodge the followup with 100+ ping. If you look closer at the video you can see me dodging pretty much when the 5k hits.

I just hope you apply these strict criteria to Thieves when you judge how they use their skills. Honestly, I think if I had perfect reactions, foresight, and 11 evades at my disposal, I would be OP. Can't all be Sahne apparently.

This is a better and fair line of questions. Start off with this next time instead of being rude without warrant. Maybe we'll get to it if one of you can even put your Thief egos aside and admit the evade display in the video is unhealthy/degenerate.

Let me get this straight:

Do you think Core Sword/Dagger is overperforming? 

Or

Do you think the concept of having 11 evades, is degenerate, and you would rather give them other tools, so they dont need these evades?

 

i am sorry if i was rude... but i am having a hard time, staying serious, when someone uploads a video, where the enemy cant kill you, and then you demand a nerf for that enemy.

Edited April 24 by Sahne.6950

[Last Crab.6054]

1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I value the game having less degenerate mechanics in play, regardless of class, which isn't based on who wins and who loses. I understand that might be all you care about.

You don't seem to add much to the discussions you're in and that's unfortunate. I'll ask my question again and just leave it then:

Do you think the evade chain shown in the video is good for and deserves to be in the game?

I'll answer after you 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I got to side with Sahne on this one. Evades, stealth, shadow steps, and blinds are what the thieves have to survive with. I've had some epic duels with thieves in the past and it is somewhat anti-cathartic to see them lose 60% of their HP in one hit and drop like a sack of bricks because I got that second good hit in during their animation locks.

[lotus.5672]

OP I get the impression that you want everything to be as bad as core engi so everyone can be miserable like you

[Frequency.6407]

Just give thief 4x HP and remove stealth lol. Forum happy

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

 

1 minute ago, Frequency.6407 said:

Just give thief 4x HP and remove stealth lol. Forum happy

40k hp thieves lmao

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

8 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

if teef players had their way they'd be the meta defining class again just like they were for most of the game's life

the team with the better one wins, nothing else matters

Bro I just wanna play the game without people writing essays about why I shouldn't be allowed to play the game, thieves arent lobbying to be mandatory in match, just competent as a pick. 

Edited April 24 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Eddie.9143]

10 hours ago, Chyro.1462 said:

Here, this link is very relevant. To be a thief main is to suffer. Why else would they request buffs like that?

this is called sarcasm...

[Chyro.1462]

15 minutes ago, Eddie.9143 said:

this is called sarcasm...

Really? I totally wasn't aware of that 😄

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, lotus.5672 said:

OP I get the impression that you want everything to be as bad as core engi so everyone can be miserable like you

Rudeness aside, it feels pretty good to challenge yourself, make your own builds, and do well with them. Much more satisfying wins than bandwagoning to the latest pre-nerf class, trying to press the same combos faster than everyone else, and accelerating the downfall of the PvP population for meaningless rank clout.

9 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Let me get this straight:

Do you think Core Sword/Dagger is overperforming? 

Or

Do you think the concept of having 11 evades, is degenerate, and you would rather give them other tools, so they dont need these evades?

 

i am sorry if i was rude... but i am having a hard time, staying serious, when someone uploads a video, where the enemy cant kill you, and then you demand a nerf for that enemy.

I'm trying to keep it real simple for you and the Thief mains in here.

I don't believe the amount/frequency of evades seen in the video is good for the game. Especially from pressing the same button over and over. I've repeatedly asked here if you all think it is good for the game / not degenerate, but no one seems to be able or really, wants to answer a basic question.

I don't believe that a class should be stripped of its defenses and left unusable. I don't know why this has to be said. There are other means of survival. If Thieves truly can't make do with less evades, then adding more sustain could be a good option among many. That would take a separate whole discussion.

You need to aim for balance between damage and defense. If Thief is always in control of when they engage, disengage, and are perma dodging during the fight, well, they deserve to do minimal damage. 10k burst and 5k hits isn't minimal damage. The balance is off. We fundamentally disagree if you don't accept these things as I've laid out.

I anticipate many of you will knee-jerk react to "but X class does Y", well fix them too. I'm not a fan of the power creep in this game and want fights to be dynamic and interactive.

This thread more than any makes me understand how the game, and forums, got to where they are today.

Edited April 24 by bethekey.8314

[JosephKatz.9375]

7 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Rudeness aside, it feels pretty good to challenge yourself, make your own builds, and do well with them. Much more satisfying wins than bandwagoning to the latest pre-nerf class, trying to press the same combos faster than everyone else, and accelerating the downfall of the PvP population for meaningless rank clout.

I'm trying to keep it real simple for you and the Thief mains in here.

I don't believe the amount/frequency of evades seen in the video is good for the game. Especially from pressing the same button over and over. I've repeatedly asked here if you all think it is good for the game / not degenerate, but no one seems to be able or really, wants to answer a basic question.

I don't believe that a class should be stripped of its defenses and left unusable. I don't know why this has to be said. There are other means of survival. If Thieves truly can't make due with less evades, then adding more sustain could be a good option among many. That would take a separate whole discussion.

You need to aim for good balance between damage and defense. If Thief is always in control of when they engage, disengage, and are perma dodging during the fight, well, they deserve to do minimal damage. 10k burst and 5k hits isn't minimal damage. The balance is off. We fundamentally disagree if you don't accept these things as I've laid out.

I anticipate many of you will knee-jerk react to "but X class does Y", well fix them too. I'm not a fan of the power creep in this game and want fights to be dynamic and interactive.

This thread more than any makes me understand how the game, and forums, got to where they are today.

The balance IS off. Engineer should not have a passive reveal on CC (or on any hit when in holo form).

Engineer should have its max strike damage reduced by no less than 50%, as there will never be a reason to justify a single burst 1 shotting a max toughness stat warrior with defense traitline.

Engineer should have 75% of its superspeed removed so they cannot retreat away faster than 90% of other classes in the game.

Engineer should not have anywhere near the blind spam, AOE dps, projectile reflect, CC spam ability nor ranged grenade spam that they can utilize while running at full speed with near perma superspeed.

 

So, I agree, the balance is certainly OFF.

Edited April 24 by JosephKatz.9375

[Sahne.6950]

20 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I don't believe that a class should be stripped of its defenses and left unusable. I don't know why this has to be said. There are other means of survival. If Thieves truly can't make do with less evades, then adding more sustain could be a good option among many.

This is based.    I Agree with this.

Do you have any ides what they could do?     Because right now, even tho you think its bonkers....  s/d thief is simply not good.   So any change would be welcome.

20 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

If Thief is always in control of when they engage, disengage, and are perma dodging during the fight, well, they deserve to do minimal damage. 10k burst and 5k hits isn't minimal damage. The balance is off.

I dont really agree with this statement tho.    The balance isnt off.

Build has high dmg/high evasion,  but low staying power, and no stealth.      It requires perfect execution, cuz even 2 hits, will end you. Build has 11k hp.

Its not like he has good defenses AND good offenses....      If he had good defenses, he could have just finished the kill with AA´s early. HE INDEED TRIED THAT..., but you instantly landed a single hit, and brought him to lower% than you were after his "op burst".  

I knowyou might not see it,  but S/D thief having this ammount of evades, is okey in my book. But why is it okey?  

Because nothing is automated here.  Every single evade he did, required a buttonpress. A buttonpress with a extremly small window of effect....

Whereas a DH can just hit f3 and then rofl over you. 

i REALLY dont see how the balancing is off here.....     You need to realize that he traded Daredevil AND shadowarts, for 2 offensive traitlines. (Critstrikes, and Deadlyarts)  Thats why he hurt so much. But thats also the reason he is a literal freekill, should he miss evades.

I think a build like this is a great skill display, and if i would have fought him, my line of thought would be:  dang... that dude really managed to evade everything!? GG´s to that dude!        

You said, you want interactive and skillfull gameplay, but cant even appreciate when its standing infront of you.   You think he was hammering his head on the keyboard, and just passively evaded everything....   You cant play this build like that...

 

Play that build for a few minutes!    you will quickly notice that its one of the hardest builds to play, while not being exactly rewarding.  It requires you interact with every single ounce of dmg coming your way.   But when someone manages to do that, you immediately jump to conclusion that his spec must be braindead and needs adjustments.

That doesnt make any sense.

Its not like he was spamming stealth! you could have interacted with him at any time.... but you didnt know you just need to wait for one of his animationlocks and then punish it.   That is a lack of knowledge. 

Nothing more, nothing less.

Edited April 25 by Sahne.6950

[Codename T.2847]

On 4/24/2024 at 8:19 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

competent thief player here. 

All you needed to do, was simply delay your hits a bit.

That thief was nonstop mashing 3.   While you were also nonstop pressing skills as fast as you can.

 A good player, doesnt use things back,to back, to back, to back.  Because it makes the timing VERY predictable, which is why the thief was able to evade your things so well.  

All you needed to do, was delay your action 0,5 seconds, and simply watch him do the 3.

Then you greet him with a CC at the end of his 3.

There is a big window after the 3, where he is vulnerable, but cant yet dodge again.   

 

If hitting this window is somehow to complicated, because of various reasons like ping/brainlag/whatever, you can purposefully let yourself get hit by the 3.

It doesnt deal that much dmg, but the skill will then flip over to a second skill, that is a boonrip hit, but the thief looses his evades in return.  You can use this window to counterpressure.  (i know you were low, but the 3 doesnt hurt enough to kill you there)

He burned his 2 dodges very early, if you wouldve let yourself hit on purpose, he wouldve ran out of evades 5 seconds into the fight.     Granted, that all you needed to do was hit him once more.... you could have ended the fight after 5 seconds.

 

If you need any more tips.   just ask.     Cuz being mad at core s/d thief is defo a skillissue.   That build has a shitton of holes you can abuse.  Just gotta know them.

loses*

Sorry I keep seeing it whenever you post here. loosing is what you do to your shoelaces or a rope, losing is when you don't win in something. : )

[Sahne.6950]

3 minutes ago, Codename T.2847 said:

loses*

Sorry I keep seeing it whenever you post here. loosing is what you do to your shoelaces or a rope, losing is when you don't win in something. : )

appreciated!   english is my 3rd language x)

Edited April 25 by Sahne.6950

[Codename T.2847]

16 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Rudeness aside, it feels pretty good to challenge yourself, make your own builds, and do well with them. Much more satisfying wins than bandwagoning to the latest pre-nerf class, trying to press the same combos faster than everyone else, and accelerating the downfall of the PvP population for meaningless rank clout.

 

I agree, theorycrafting with core builds and playing them extensively can be fun. If you are truly having a good time with the core class you like, while not giving a frick about losing to certain others, then by all means. That being said tho, all of the core classes are designed to be baseline, to be just fine. Core S/D thief in this case loses easily to d/p daredev, rifle deadeye (probably) but even S/D Specter too.

If the player is good as hell core classes can appear to be more than just 'fine', but still, I hope you don't have the same qualm about every other (arguably worse offender) meta classes out there in PvP atm, because if yes you are signing yourself up to a lot of misery and misfortune. (I've been there)

Edited April 25 by Codename T.2847

[Endorphin.9147]

19 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Rudeness aside, it feels pretty good to challenge yourself, make your own builds, and do well with them. Much more satisfying wins than bandwagoning to the latest pre-nerf class, trying to press the same combos faster than everyone else, and accelerating the downfall of the PvP population for meaningless rank clout.

I'm trying to keep it real simple for you and the Thief mains in here.

I don't believe the amount/frequency of evades seen in the video is good for the game. Especially from pressing the same button over and over. I've repeatedly asked here if you all think it is good for the game / not degenerate, but no one seems to be able or really, wants to answer a basic question.

I don't believe that a class should be stripped of its defenses and left unusable. I don't know why this has to be said. There are other means of survival. If Thieves truly can't make do with less evades, then adding more sustain could be a good option among many. That would take a separate whole discussion.

You need to aim for balance between damage and defense. If Thief is always in control of when they engage, disengage, and are perma dodging during the fight, well, they deserve to do minimal damage. 10k burst and 5k hits isn't minimal damage. The balance is off. We fundamentally disagree if you don't accept these things as I've laid out.

I anticipate many of you will knee-jerk react to "but X class does Y", well fix them too. I'm not a fan of the power creep in this game and want fights to be dynamic and interactive.

This thread more than any makes me understand how the game, and forums, got to where they are today.

Everything you described that was your problem with sd thief, im pretty sure hammer vindi does it 2x better.  In your video you were literally just w keying away from most of the thief's damage. The only thing that actually threatened you the entire fight was his opening.

Yeah hes running acro line so he can dodge more often and spend all his initative to be countered by the w key. I know he wasnt playing very exceptional  but dang, im pretty sure there are ranger builds that also dodge this much and have more success landing skills and sustaining.

If you just timed your skills to land at he end of sword 3 he would be dead 100%

Edited April 25 by Endorphin.9147

[JosephKatz.9375]

Did you notice he did not even have 1 second without superspeed once it triggered? This man is moving almost 50% faster than the acro thief is and he is still complaining.

If one thing is clear from this clip, it is Nerf Engineer.

[Endorphin.9147]

I get what hes saying. The dodge spam is degenerate. But thats how assassin like classes in any fantasy genre are supposed to be. They are supposed to be cheap and degenerate, they use underhanded methods to get their kills. They are known for having high agility as well and then fall over once they are focused. At least with this one you are able to counter play it with enough game knowledge.

Edited April 25 by Endorphin.9147

[Sahne.6950]

[Codename T.2847]

45 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I'd honestly have 0 problems with S/D if it wasn't for larcenous being unblockable being mildly annoying to fight against (also the daze bug but this hasn't been fixed for 11 years or so now)as a frickin core ele player I very rarely get hard owned by average joe thieves (well, it's in a WvW context but still applies) and the good ones that frag out on me i'm cool with it tbh, except when theyre salty : D 

Edited April 25 by Codename T.2847

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Imagine sidenoding being this unhinged

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 hours ago, Endorphin.9147 said:

They are supposed to be cheap and degenerate, they use underhanded methods to get their kills. 

Finally the enlightened one

Embrace the RP

Edited April 25 by Azure The Heartless.3261
Will it get to 5 pages before vindi and ranger even show up on the map? You decide kekw