Oh, to be a Thief main

[bethekey.8314]

So after playing it a few conclusions:

- Yes the evades are excessive and it's not hard to replicate what I showed here.

- Yes there is low skill floor and I was able to down good players on good builds easily with simple combos.

- Ping seemed very important and ruined many fights. I would not play this Thief build with 150+ ping at all. Thankfully, there seem to be a slew of even lower skill floor builds.

- Going from a port-less class (mech doesn't count) to 3 port build was the hardest part of playing it for me. The no-ports and port interactions with Full Counter or DH traps were annoying.

- Thief players are a horribly vindictive / egotistical bunch, and usually the bane of each other. One kill on another Thief in a fair fight led to them having a grudge the rest of the time I was playing.

- Larcenous Strike was regularly hitting 6-8ks and I even hit an 11k under perfect conditions as Marauder's amulet. That's too high.

- Equipping Marauder's amulet solved much of the "I can't even eat 1 hit!" issues. As above, I still did plenty of damage. I get the impression Thieves seem so used to winning with basic combos from stealth/the start of fights they refuse to build tankier, and would rather complain. God forbid the fights drag on longer and you have to get creative, because you can't control the opener every time.

- I didn't even equip a second weapon set and was doing fine. A second set would allow even more endurance regen.

- Generally Thief seems to be a gatekeeper of glassy burst builds. You have to be able to out-instant cast or out-cheese the Thief with things like Holo toolbelts to counter.

- @Sahne.6950s builds with Deadly Arts seem outdated, unsurprisingly. Within an hour or so of playing I guessed what better ones were with Acro, Crit Strikes, and Trickery.

Good learning experience overall.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 4/26/2024 at 4:58 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

true fair thief matchup

Specter. Both power and condi felt more akin to a condi necro than a thief, and even at its prime I always thought it was the healthiest iteration of thief. I miss the old shallow grave, I really do.

Now confuse react me.

Edited April 28 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Specter. Both power and condi felt more akin to a condi necro than a thief, and even at its prime I always thought it was the healthiest iteration of thief. I miss the old shallow grave, I really do.

Now confuse react me.

No confusion here, just like....more shifting to the spec/build/weapon that nobody plays because it mechanically can't get the job done well enough to show up in regular play.

Specter is fair unless people can play it, then it isn't/is degen. It's always a moving goalpost away from where we are because the whole point is people don't like interacting with thieves they don't immediately beat.

Not that I attribute this to OP, it's more a general sentiment. {though I cant help but notice this is the one build engie is not well equipped to instant win against in this regard). I'm just laying out why I never take balancing in the sense of deceny seriously anymore. sword evade spam isn't any worse than getting instant blown up by a shatter mes or steamrolled by a reveal holo or annoyed to death by a block spellbreaker/ blocksworn, etc etc, that it should be singled out as a problem. As was laid out above, it has several avenues for beating it as is, the only issue is with the number of evades in a row (without context of the vuln periods, initially. I have not read any further developments).

Quote

felt more akin to a condi necro

Also if I want to play necro I'll play necro but that's neither here nor there

The whole point is: when ya'll settle on a foundation for thief that isn't -just- "the thing its doing is bad, make it do something else" and it's something shippable that won't take the rewiring of decade old systems Anet barely has a handle on as is to implement, or something as significant, then I am all ears. I don't think 
"swindlers  nerf, maybe?" in 2024 is it, personally. Thieves went years actively sandbagged for playing S/D and acro, and the whole while the forums were full of "remove stealth, maybe?" threads. Now low stealth is serviceable again and it's already in the crosshairs. Wild.

Edited April 28 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Terrorhuz.4695]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Specter is fair unless people can play it, then it isn't/is degen. It's always a moving goalpost away from where we are because the whole point is people don't like interacting with thieves they don't immediately beat.

As far as I'm concerned, specter NEVER felt cheating, even when it was meta. I know the forums claim otherwise, but I never agreed. It had a role, it had tools, it had balanced tradeoffs, a gameplay which isn't about "MASHING THE SAME BUTTON FOR OFFENSIVE AND DEFENSIVE AT THE SAME TIMEl", I absolutely loved it.

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Also if I want to play necro I'll play necro but that's neither here nor there

Fair point.

Edited April 28 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

22 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

So after playing it a few conclusions:

- Yes the evades are excessive and it's not hard to replicate what I showed here.

- Yes there is low skill floor and I was able to down good players on good builds easily with simple combos.

- Ping seemed very important and ruined many fights. I would not play this Thief build with 150+ ping at all. Thankfully, there seem to be a slew of even lower skill floor builds.

- Going from a port-less class (mech doesn't count) to 3 port build was the hardest part of playing it for me. The no-ports and port interactions with Full Counter or DH traps were annoying.

- Thief players are a horribly vindictive / egotistical bunch, and usually the bane of each other. One kill on another Thief in a fair fight led to them having a grudge the rest of the time I was playing.

- Larcenous Strike was regularly hitting 6-8ks and I even hit an 11k under perfect conditions as Marauder's amulet. That's too high.

- Equipping Marauder's amulet solved much of the "I can't even eat 1 hit!" issues. As above, I still did plenty of damage. I get the impression Thieves seem so used to winning with basic combos from stealth/the start of fights they refuse to build tankier, and would rather complain. God forbid the fights drag on longer and you have to get creative, because you can't control the opener every time.

- I didn't even equip a second weapon set and was doing fine. A second set would allow even more endurance regen.

- Generally Thief seems to be a gatekeeper of glassy burst builds. You have to be able to out-instant cast or out-cheese the Thief with things like Holo toolbelts to counter.

- @Sahne.6950s builds with Deadly Arts seem outdated, unsurprisingly. Within an hour or so of playing I guessed what better ones were with Acro, Crit Strikes, and Trickery.

Good learning experience overall.

I wanna fight thiefstock

You've joined the cult you have to follow through now

Are you ready

(Chorus:Are you ready)

Quote

As far as I'm concerned, specter NEVER felt cheating, even when it was meta. I know the forums claim otherwise, but I never agreed. It had a role, it had tools, it had balanced tradeoffs, a gameplay which isn't about "MASHING THE SAME BUTTON FOR OFFENSIVE AND DEFENSIVE AT THE SAME TIMEl", I absolutely loved it.

When I pick up specter (if I don't immediately init starve) any further seal area nerfs are on your head

Quote

whenever Thieves get uppity

We're always uppity have you met thief mains

I think only Dadnir is the sane one

Edited April 28 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[cyberzombie.7348]

On 4/26/2024 at 7:58 AM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Does it hitting harder suddenly flip it from being fair to degen? 

As long as it stays proportional to in-combat sustain no. At the same time though, I'd be a hypocrite if I said yes considering I made evasive glass cannon builds on other classes since vanilla that would do twice the burst damage that's being done these days.

[Shao.7236]

On 4/27/2024 at 6:04 PM, bethekey.8314 said:

- Generally Thief seems to be a gatekeeper of glassy burst builds. You have to be able to out-instant cast or out-cheese the Thief with things like Holo toolbelts to counter.

And in that sense, that's just how it goes by concept. You just need something to catch them off-guard and slow down the process. In my case instant low Weakness application is all I got to stop myself from being killed so easily. I'm definitely not against having Thieves in that position either because it just fits their role. Taking opportunity to pick up unsuspected targets.

[bethekey.8314]

52 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

And in that sense, that's just how it goes by concept. You just need something to catch them off-guard and slow down the process. In my case instant low Weakness application is all I got to stop myself from being killed so easily. I'm definitely not against having Thieves in that position either because it just fits their role. Taking opportunity to pick up unsuspected targets.

I say this as a general negative, if Anet wants classes to be able to fill multiple roles. If we just accept that Thieves will always be the most mobile and best at taking down squishies, then what defining role does every other class get?

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I wanna fight thiefstock

https://imgflip.com/i/8och9g

[Shao.7236]

33 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I say this as a general negative, if Anet wants classes to be able to fill multiple roles. If we just accept that Thieves will always be the most mobile and best at taking down squishies, then what defining role does every other class get?

Well, there's bound to be one that beats all to a certain extend and it's not like elites would stop it given that all weapons are available now.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

12 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

 

https://imgflip.com/i/8och9g

Charr thief too? Good taste.

Ill fight you to the death about s/d but good taste

[arazoth.7290]

4 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

 

https://imgflip.com/i/8och9g

no

[Last Crab.6054]

On 4/27/2024 at 4:04 PM, bethekey.8314 said:

 

- Larcenous Strike was regularly hitting 6-8ks and I even hit an 11k under perfect conditions as Marauder's amulet. That's too high.

 

nah, we gonna need proof for this

 

look at these 2

Larcenous Strike - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Backstab - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

 

backstab don't get that high, and even with the +20% you wouldnt be that high on larcenous strike.

so whats the magic build?
 

Edited April 29 by Last Crab.6054

[JosephKatz.9375]

4 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Well, there's bound to be one that beats all to a certain extend and it's not like elites would stop it given that all weapons are available now.

Yes and that happens to be Engineer, more specifically Holosmith. The way it’s been for years… what other class/spec truly has everything?

Edited April 29 by JosephKatz.9375

[Last Crab.6054]

7 minutes ago, JosephKatz.9375 said:

Yes and that happens to be Engineer, more specifically Holosmith. The way it’s been for years… what other class/spec truly has everything?

woodstock plays holo competitively, and also scrapper when it was OP, he trolls FFA on core, but...you should know this from the vids he posts.

his class has very strong options, he just want "no competition".

core s/d is NOT a "strong" option, it is NOT meta or even close to it.

ask him to play a season on it ONLY and show where he lands in rating, also it must be solo and during peak hours not 4 am dgaf standard time

[bethekey.8314]

3 hours ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

nah, we gonna need proof for this

https://imgur.com/a/jvuvMVO

No sword buff, only 4 might, but the Guard (heavy armor btw) I kill did have a lot of vuln. Like I said, near perfect conditions. This happened on my first day as Thief though, so I doubt it's uncommon.

From my health, even with Shield buff, you can tell I'm running Marauder's.

4 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

no

yes

3 hours ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

woodstock plays holo competitively

I do?

3 hours ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

 

core s/d is NOT a "strong" option, it is NOT meta or even close to it.

Lemme know where I said core s/d is meta. I only ever meant to indicate that the combination evade spam + damage is not balanced. One or the other should be toned down imo, based on the results I got as a Thief newbie, playing a "weak" build, further handicapped by no 2nd weapon set.

I think I'm able to appreciate skilled Thieves more now, but I overall lost respect for the majority playing arguably easier builds. The ones that just repeat openers from stealth...I mean, what are you even doing lol. How do you not get bored?

Edited April 29 by bethekey.8314

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Wish granted! 

Thief lost 50% of their dodges. 

Thief gained 5k base health and dodges now heal for 2k baseline to compensate. 

 

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

https://imgur.com/a/jvuvMVO

Spicy.

Downstate berserker willbender? Maybe an executioner buffed kill on core S/D?

Edited April 29 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[shion.2084]

12 hours ago, JosephKatz.9375 said:

Yes and that happens to be Engineer, more specifically Holosmith. The way it’s been for years… what other class/spec truly has everything?

Yeah like ports, and invulns where you can do tons of damage, and tons of stab and stun breaks... no trade-offs there.

[shion.2084]

@bethekey.8314  You know what... good on you.  Everyone told you your opinion was wrong because you hadn't tried, challenged you to try.... and you did.   I wish everyone whining about other classes was wiling to put their effort where their mouth was.  And 11k... that's.... impressive.

[bethekey.8314]

6 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

@bethekey.8314  You know what... good on you.  Everyone told you your opinion was wrong because you hadn't tried, challenged you to try.... and you did.   I wish everyone whining about other classes was wiling to put their effort where their mouth was.  And 11k... that's.... impressive.

Lol thanks. The confused emote spam without any real rebuttal definitely shows I touched a nerve.

[MilkyTea.9042]

Quote

- Thief players are a horribly vindictive / egotistical bunch, and usually the bane of each other. One kill on another Thief in a fair fight led to them having a grudge the rest of the time I was playing.

They hated him because he spoke the truth.

[Last Crab.6054]

On 4/29/2024 at 1:37 AM, bethekey.8314 said:

https://imgur.com/a/jv

On 4/29/2024 at 1:37 AM, bethekey.8314 said:

https://imgur.com/a/jvuvMVO

No sword buff, only 4 might, but the Guard (heavy armor btw) I kill did have a lot of vuln. Like I said, near perfect conditions. This happened on my first day as Thief though, so I doubt it's uncommon.

From my health, even with Shield buff, you can tell I'm running Marauder's.

yes

I do?

Lemme know where I said core s/d is meta. I only ever meant to indicate that the combination evade spam + damage is not balanced. One or the other should be toned down imo, based on the results I got as a Thief newbie, playing a "weak" build, further handicapped by no 2nd weapon set.

I think I'm able to appreciate skilled Thieves more now, but I overall lost respect for the majority playing arguably easier builds. The ones that just repeat openers from stealth...I mean, what are you even doing lol. How do you not get bored?

uvMVO

No sword buff, only 4 might, but the Guard (heavy armor btw) I kill did have a lot of vuln. Like I said, near perfect conditions. This happened on my first day as Thief though, so I doubt it's uncommon.

From my health, even with Shield buff, you can tell I'm running Marauder's.

yes

I do?

Lemme know where I said core s/d is meta. I only ever meant to indicate that the combination evade spam + damage is not balanced. One or the other should be toned down imo, based on the results I got as a Thief newbie, playing a "weak" build, further handicapped by no 2nd weapon set.

I think I'm able to appreciate skilled Thieves more now, but I overall lost respect for the majority playing arguably easier builds. The ones that just repeat openers from stealth...I mean, what are you even doing lol. How do you not get bored?

still dont believe it, why is the enemy bar not showing?

is your buddy naked?

do it on a golem, i don't believe you.

not on maruaders, not without conditions, not without nudity.

 

Ive tested it with all modifiers outside of coliseum, and it hits for 7.2k, being naked would explain 11k if you had similar conditions

Edited May 3 by Last Crab.6054

[Frequency.6407]

1 hour ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

still dont believe it, why is the enemy bar not showing?

is your buddy naked?

do it on a golem, i don't believe you.

not on maruaders, not without conditions, not without nudity.

 

Ive tested it with all modifiers outside of coliseum, and it hits for 7.2k, being naked would explain 11k if you had similar conditions

Downed enemies are naked no? And if they have vul as well.

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

still dont believe it, why is the enemy bar not showing?

is your buddy naked?

do it on a golem, i don't believe you.

not on maruaders, not without conditions, not without nudity.

 

Ive tested it with all modifiers outside of coliseum, and it hits for 7.2k, being naked would explain 11k if you had similar conditions

Lol so you're accusing me of colluding with an enemy player and doctoring the image? Give me some credit at least...I don't care about you enough to do that. I've already said it was a "perfect situation" with vuln. Still, damage clearly too high.

Idk what more to tell you. Maybe you're bad. Maybe Thief players aren't creative. Maybe I lucked out within 10 matches of playing Thief. Maybe I'm just constructed in non-standard ways.

[Endorphin.9147]

He probably didnt have armor on. Still, core sd has crazy burst damage from dmg mods when you line things up correctly. Also if the guard doesnt have boons, larc strike does more damage.