Who is open world content made for?

[Zeperio.4853]

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It's easy to say things, but you also have to back those things up.

You guys complaining about how easy open world contents are is not proof enough?

[Gehenna.3625]

29 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

It was a bit overturned at first and got nerfed. That’s pretty normal in MMOs. Look how other games nerf raid bosses for example. 
But again, that’s not an indicator that it was a success or not. 

They did do something else: the item that dropped from the meta to get the turtle mount was made available from a currency vendor. So at least it failed to get a lot of casuals on board. However, they might've wanted to add some more challenging content in OW as a step towards raids and perhaps they were aiming for a group that was a bit bigger than they should've targeted. And I do believe that there should be at least some content in OW that's harder.

The only problem I had with that meta was that thing about the turtle mount. I knew many casuals wouldn't be able to do that meta. But they fixed that. So overall, I think it was a success after that, though to dedicate an entire map to such a meta is questionable. They didn't do that for triple trouble either. I don't think this meta will go the way of Dragon Stand and I'm not sure how many people still do it, since I've abandoned it a long time ago. Not because I couldn't do it but after completing it successfully a few times, I realised there was nothing to gain from it that I cared about. 🤷‍♂️

[kharmin.7683]

7 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Exactly.

Variety is the spice of life. Some metas may be relaxing, chat with your friends, laid back events while others may ask more of each participant. Having some of each is a good thing.

Agreed, which I why I believe it is a mistake to gate content behind meta events. 

[Bealis.6023]

To add to the lot, I think main problem with SoTO open world was the needed use of flying mounts in many cases. I had a skyscale from before so I didn't struggle personally, but after checking the achis for the easier way to obtain one, I realized the paradox of needing to play a lot of the new content in order to enjoy fully said content later (you need to fully lvl up the skyscale mastery).

[Cuks.8241]

3 hours ago, Zeperio.4853 said:

 ahh and they wouldn't have nerfed it if it was just a vocal minority who was complaining about it, so there is another proof that it's not just a minority who was complaining about it 😊 

Edit: Just stating facts of the current situation hehe

Can you actually tell what was nerfed with SooWon or are you just trolling?

From what I remember they reduced the rng elements: made side changing more consistent and also when the break bar appears. They also also made escort pre events award the stat buff and thus made preparations faster.

I dont really remember straight nerfs to the fight though. Yeah the rng was annoying and could make the fight harder and annoying or easier. You could call that nerf but the average fight was similarly hard after the changes.

I dont remember if there were any day 1 or week 1 nerfs because it took me about 2 weeks to get there. But after 2 weeks there was only lots of crying here, ingame I had no problem. Didnt even Anet post success, completion rates and those were fine?

[Shadowmoon.7986]

53 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Can you actually tell what was nerfed with SooWon or are you just trolling?

From what I remember they reduced the rng elements: made side changing more consistent and also when the break bar appears. They also also made escort pre events award the stat buff and thus made preparations faster.

I dont really remember straight nerfs to the fight though. Yeah the rng was annoying and could make the fight harder and annoying or easier. You could call that nerf but the average fight was similarly hard after the changes.

I dont remember if there were any day 1 or week 1 nerfs because it took me about 2 weeks to get there. But after 2 weeks there was only lots of crying here, ingame I had no problem. Didnt even Anet post success, completion rates and those were fine?

The following are all the nerfs I know of to soo won:

Decrease frequency of tail below 50%

Decrease timer of orb collect of 80 and 40%, application  of dps buff for succeeding the event.  This was a better design choice because it rewarded individuals for completing it, instead of punishing the group for people failing it.

Reduced the rng in the encounter so the fight was more consistent, you could roll a easier soo won prior to this change, you could have rolled a harder one. Average difficulty is about the same.

And people still do this meta two years after it's debut. Compare this to all the failed metas in the game like maws of torment,  vabbi, and  the stupid turtle boss that ruined GD.  

 

 

[Trejgon.9367]

1 hour ago, Bealis.6023 said:

To add to the lot, I think main problem with SoTO open world was the needed use of flying mounts in many cases. I had a skyscale from before so I didn't struggle personally, but after checking the achis for the easier way to obtain one, I realized the paradox of needing to play a lot of the new content in order to enjoy fully said content later (you need to fully lvl up the skyscale mastery).

People without skyscale got perma rental on SotO maps from just clearing relevant story introduction. The new friend collection was specifically to unlock skyscale (with it's new abilities from new masteries) to the rest of regions in the game.

[Sobx.1758]

On 5/29/2024 at 4:46 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, you were the one claiming that 5k is what you do naked while autoattacking. This clearly shows you have no idea whatsoever about how damage system works in this game.

Yeah, I'm not convinced about the truthfulness (or lack of it) of his statement -mainly because I don't see the need to even check something like that- but he probably still has more merit in that than you with the "very popular full soldier builds" claim (source still unknown, btw).

 

10 hours ago, Skub.8240 said:

But following this very logic means there should be easy raids for the 5k dps people because we need variety, right? So people wouldn't be mad if, after like five years, the next raid was geared entirely around people who struggle to take down outdated HoT champs, surely.

And that there, is basically the flaw with this argument. There is plenty of content already for people who want to target a higher skill floor and get better at the game, and I wholly disagree that, that should be the open world content's duty as well.

Aren't bosses dubbed as "dps golems" or the bits which are escort missions -or trio- just that? I'd say they are. Similarly strike missions have clearly easier encounters available. Not that normal modes are exactly hard in general. And that's not even mentioning how currently they're progressing from literaly story modes, so I'm not sure what you're saying here really holds. I don't see an issue with some harder metas, in fact I think that's desirable for the game.

 

6 hours ago, Zeperio.4853 said:

New expansions are just new maps for everyone including new players. It is unreasonable to expect "new expansion = harder OPENWORLD content",

Only for those who willingfully decide to avoid playing through the core game and leveling proccess 0-80 which includes new player tips. It's as if you're hitting the "skip" button on a tutorial and then try complaining about the game being too hard because you didn't play the tutorial. That player makes that choice, but it's not really how the game plays -even if you only buy "that last expansion". First expansion map isn't really a new player map. The low level core maps are.

Edited May 30 by Sobx.1758

[Manpag.6421]

5 hours ago, Bealis.6023 said:

To add to the lot, I think main problem with SoTO open world was the needed use of flying mounts in many cases. I had a skyscale from before so I didn't struggle personally, but after checking the achis for the easier way to obtain one, I realized the paradox of needing to play a lot of the new content in order to enjoy fully said content later (you need to fully lvl up the skyscale mastery).

This isn't new, though. To a greater or lesser extent, there have always been metas that rely on certain masteries. You can't do all Verdant Brink bosses without having at least updraft gliding, and struggle against some without the relevant Nuhoch masteries; the Exalted mastery is needed for some of the pre-events for Octovine, as well as getting down to the fight, etc.

SotO is actually fairly good at pitching the masteries needed for metas to what is reasonable to expect for the stage in the game. In contrast to Verdant Brink, the Skywatch Archipelago meta doesn't require you to have any of the skyscale masteries to participate fully. Updraft use helps, it's just orb collecting and fights on platforms. Amnytas and Nayos ask more, but there are always ground portions that you can do if you lack fireball etc.

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 5/27/2024 at 3:38 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

This is what you get when a vocal "open world minority" group of players complain that instanced content is to difficult, demanding all resources be used to cater to their content while at the same time the game can't sustain its self with the more hardcore players leaving.

Now there have always been occasional challenging open world encounters, in fact some of the very first real meta bosses were some of THE most difficult encounters the game has seen (respectively if one considers balance, state of knowledge the player base possessed, etc.). Encounters like Tequatle or Twisted Marionette or Karka Queen, introduced as far back as Season 1.

Then came years of catering to the brain-dead crowd in all regards, in part as reaction to the short term poorly received Heart of Thorns expansion (which by many is considered some of the best content released now) while offering challenging content in instances (higher tier fractals which after being made easier got CMs introduced, raids).

Then came catering to the brain-dead crowd in instanced content because rewards should be handed out to every player no matter if they understand this game or not.

We have now gone full circle, the only issue being: we now have veteran players of many years which have never actually learned how to play this game. Why would they, it worked in the past for them did it not?

I actually agree here, open world content should NOT be to demanding. You have limited ability to affect who you get paired with and even then this can lead to exclusion or gate keeping (which is hilariously misplaced for open world content). Keep the difficult and challenging content to instanced content and let players either rise to the challenge, or kitten off.

I agree with some of this.

See when a lot of people say the easier events were always doable, what is really happening is these events are succeeded in spite of them. It's just that when things require a few brain cells, their dead weight actually becomes a problem. So yes, the game doesn't really require you to learn how to play it, until you do, and this is where most of the complaints come from.

But....

Then again, there are some reasons to understand their frustration....

* One of the reasons players make themselves useless is because a lot of the build and gear choices simply are bad. We're not talking about like some less damage or something but almost like the game thinks your build is bad, and you should feel bad because you're griefing everyone in your vicinity.  I suppose this is an inevitable part of the build choice process, and they have updated the basic stats/builds from level 80 boosts or what not, but some games allow you to automatically apply commonly used builds and I wonder if that would help some. Granted, a lot of people do know better but don't care anyways, so this might be a moot point.

* A lot of the game doesn't actually explain itself very well. So like you're doing like a meta in EOD or something, and all the guidance you get is some NPC sprouting 2 lines of text at you. Often it's not very helpful. Which kinda brings me to the next point. Yea I get people can read guides and stuff, but to do it for all these events and people may just opt to not do it at all.... or just leech.

* So many fights are incredibly gimmicky and often times there is a lack of consistency between mechanics. This means people have to learn fights individually and read guides for each individual fights, and so that makes it horrifically unintuitive. Consider the green circle = stack mechanic we occasionally see. If you did raids (or that one fractal)., you'd know what it is, but to the average OW player it appears to be some BS that just killed them and they're not even sure why they died. Now, EoD seemed to have some hearts and events designed to ease people in to learning mechanics, but I honestly think these kinds of things need to be taught directly in the story mode, albeit in easier form.

* And then there is visual clutter. it is hard to expect the average casual player to perform when they are constantly being blinded by lights and sure, don't stand in the circles. Except later content likes to put them approximately everywhere.

Yes, a lot of them should be the responsibility of the player to learn and progress, using mechanics to build on each other. But to many, I'd imagine each new fight is like playing an entirely new game, and that can be confusing and frustrating to many.

Even as someone that generally has no difficulty doing OW anything, and sees Su-won as entertaining, I have to admit there's still many encounters in this game I really cbf learning. So I don't really sympathize, but I do understand.

Edited May 30 by ArchonWing.9480

[Trejgon.9367]

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

with the "very popular full soldier builds" claim (source still unknown, btw).

That reminds me of that ancient times, when people were unironically suggesting to use soldier stat in wvw for zerg to "not die as much".

About last time I remember the advise of that particular stat to be anyhow remotely popular.

[Vayne.8563]

12 hours ago, Zeperio.4853 said:

You guys complaining about how easy open world contents are is not proof enough?

I've never complained about how easy the open world is. Not once. I've complained about hearts in new zones, when they weren't originally part of Anet's plan. I've complained that people asked for them, because having to do them to get map complete directly affects me.  And I complained when raids came out because it was the only way to get legendary armor. I was never going to raid. Ever. It wasn't how I enjoyed the game. Difficult instanced content is fine,  as long as it's not the only path to a specific reward type. It's okay if you're locking a skin behind it, but not all legendary armor. Because then, you're making people do that content even if they don't like it, if they want that reward. Something that acts as nothing else in the game does.  

I PvPed, even though I didn't enjoy it, for 3 pieces of legendary armor. I WvWed for another 2 pieces. I liked WvW but it took way too long to get pieces and I didn't like it enough, not to spend all my time in there. I didn't like PvP much at all, but made the best of it. Still, I played less and spent less in the gem store, because though I was getting legendary armor, which I did want, I wasn't enjoying the game.

I like the open world. I don't even mind the easy parts of it. It's my bread and butter. I spend a lot of time there.

Until a couple of years ago, the only "raiding" I'd ever done was an event called the escort.  More like a hard dynamic event than a raid, and easy for a few skilled players to carry a group of more casual players. My guild did it to unlock raid masteries for people who wanted to do that and didn't want to raid. This was before raid masteries were hidden. Then, I started raiding with a group of guildies. I was sort of pushed into it. And I was bad. I was really bad. I'm still not that good. I guess I'm okay on some bosses, that's the best I can say about my raid skill.

But I've beaten every raid boss in the game and most of the challenge mode bosses as well. I still haven't beat Dhuum on Challenge mode, I had real life stuff to take care of when the group did Slothosaur, so I missed out, but I'll get it eventually. And I haven't beat Deimos in challenge mode yet, though we've only tried it a couple of times. That would be me getting every raid achievement, those three bosses.  The I'm never going to raid guy.

I how have every piece of raid legendary armor, I have the raid legendary ring, and I still raid at least 2-3 times a week (sometimes 4), but it's not my favorite content. I'm in favor of having variety of content. Easier stuff when I feel in the mood for that, harder stuff for when I feel in the mood for that. But lumping me in with people who are against easy content is simply wrong. I'm all for easy content. I'm all for hard content. I like content. I'm not always in the mood for hard content, I can only do it in smaller bursts, but I just enjoy the game. And there needs to be variety so other people can enjoy it too.

The problem isn't the content being in the game. The problem is locking specific reward types behind it.

 

Edited May 30 by Vayne.8563
spelling

[ArchonWing.9480]

18 minutes ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

That reminds me of that ancient times, when people were unironically suggesting to use soldier stat in wvw for zerg to "not die as much".

About last time I remember the advise of that particular stat to be anyhow remotely popular.

That was because the core game didn't have many good stats and it was difficult to balance between offensive and defensive stats because most would be missing other toughness or vitality.   With the advent of 4 stat gear and stronger rune sets , those old stats became obsolete.

But it was sound advice at the time. I suppose it's possible some people may have not looked at their builds in a decade.

Also you have to remember one person could rally more than one enemy back then. so being a rallybot was a very bad thing.

 

Edited May 30 by ArchonWing.9480

[Zera.9435]

Open world content was made for me.

[Trejgon.9367]

10 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Also you have to remember one person could rally more than one enemy back then. so being a rallybot was a very bad thing.

That implies there was a change I completely missed to rallying in wvw xD

[Gop.8713]

yeah it's one kill one rally now, been that way for as long as I can remember . . ?

EDIT: More you your point I used to beg ppls to run soldier during the marionette 'return to' when the only reason anything ever failed was bc we didn't have enough ppls on platforms. Far more impt to stay alive than deeps, hard to understand. We had that same problem with convergences now that I think of it . . .

Edited May 31 by Gop.8713

[ArchonWing.9480]

10 hours ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

That implies there was a change I completely missed to rallying in wvw xD

It was a long time ago.

There were a lot of weird things in the past  like being able to rally off animals. Also you can still rally off siege.

[Obfuscate.6430]

This has probably already been said, but open world content must be made understandably more challenging with each new expansion due to power creep.
I also believe they want to help teach people to understand boss mechanics - in the hopes of funneling people in to Raid, Strikes and Fractal content. 

Is it fun?
Does it work?

Edited June 1 by Obfuscate.6430

[Astralporing.1957]

59 minutes ago, Obfuscate.6430 said:

This has probably already been said, but open world content must be made understandably more challenging with each new expansion due to power creep.

No. That only feeds the powercreep even more and prevents any sensible attempt at curtailing it.

[frazazel.7501]

I think there's a problem with open world content getting harder due to power creep. Anet wants players to be able to play with any combination of owned expansions. In that case, they need to balance encounters so they feel good for new players who only have the current expansion, and who may have only recently hit level 80.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

I still consider myself belonging to the target-audience of open world content. Although a lot of things have changed since 2012. The hardest part when comparing content is always to keep the view of the time. From the current point of view, most meta-events are a walk in the park. Powercreep trivialized most of the mechanics, even those of the reworked/empowered worldbosses.

Regarding the complexity, it is a treadmill. When they make a new one, they take a look at their previous creations and want to offer something good and new. For the final episode of the expansion it has to be something epic. But looking at the previous approaches, it is quite difficult to create something that rivals with these. 

Whenever I think "now we are done. There is no way to get beyond this." They do just that. Bigger, faster, more complicated, more epic and somehow less rewarding. That is something I do not get about the meta-event development. Every new entry gets significantly worse loot. Sure, they make you grind it over and over. But the loot is nowhere near Drizzlewood Coast, which was probably the last good map regarding that topic.

Now what are map-meta events? This is a discussion I keep doing since my first day in this game. If a dynamic event pops up, the description says [GROUP EVENT]. It is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Play Game and the map-meta requires the whole map-population to work together for a common goal. This content is not supposed to be soloed or with a bunch of people. Map meta means, you need the whole map.  

Again, from the current pov, old content can be done with a small group. Even the map metas. But at the time they were released, they were tough. I remember the Tequatl rework, before we had Megaservers. Our server was among the last servers, if not THE LAST server to slay that dragon. Because Ring of Fire has a very special understanding of team-work. But even the top servers struggled massively before beating it for the first time. It took months for every server to get it done. DE had a very steep learning curve with countless of wipes, even by experienced and skilled groups.

Right now, the IN meta deserves to be this difficult. Whether it remains like that or not, time will tell. But at the moment, everything else would be a disappointment. I've done it today for the first time and I like it. It is engaging, not too complicated and the final encounter is just epic. I enjoyed this even more than the DE one. The rest of the maps and the events are doable for solo players and randomly formed groups, which is also how it is supposed to be.

I still consider Open World to be designed for everyone on the map. But I also still consider group-content to be group-content. And if the map-meta event requires the whole map to work together, so be it. For an epic and challenging encounter, that is imo acceptable.