The Crisis of World Restructuring and why it will destroy WvW: Everything outside of one guild will be shifting sand

[TheGrimm.5624]

2 minutes ago, Ronin.4501 said:

That being said I have been asked to level up our alliance guild. Apparently I did something heinous in a past life. 😭

lol. Maybe we should go bowling. Created one as well in case and that was my first thought, man the upgrades on the first couple of guilds...a new to game Guildmate said I never did that and I will help. Maybe me lol. So we went to HD2 and I cooked off a grenade on us. They laughed and said WHAT WAS THAT FOR! I said that is what it is like to build up a G-Hall with just a few until you get more. They got it afterwards.

[Ronin.4501]

11 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

lol. Maybe we should go bowling. Created one as well in case and that was my first thought, man the upgrades on the first couple of guilds...a new to game Guildmate said I never did that and I will help. Maybe me lol. So we went to HD2 and I cooked off a grenade on us. They laughed and said WHAT WAS THAT FOR! I said that is what it is like to build up a G-Hall with just a few until you get more. They got it afterwards.

I've leveled up two pocket guilds solo which my guildmates were aware of, so when they created a "meme guild" they asked me to take over for that as well. We had just finished getting all the WvW upgrades finished a few weeks ago when WR betas were announced.  So said alliance guild was created and now I've been asked yet again to level up that guild as well.  But on the bright side it's only been 2 days since the guild was formed (we had a week to vote on names lol) and we're already level 4.  With 150+ members I'm actually finding people willing to help with Guild Missions and material donations.  This might just be an alliance guild that sticks around!

So if you come across Pending Alliance Name [PAN], that's us!!

Edited May 29 by Ronin.4501

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 minutes ago, Ronin.4501 said:

I've leveled up two pocket guilds solo which my guildmates were aware of, so when they created a "meme guild" they asked me to take over for that as well. We had just finished getting all the WvW upgrades finished a few weeks ago when WR betas were announced.  So said alliance guild was created and now I've been asked yet again to level up that guild as well.  But on the bright side it's only been 2 days since the guild was formed (we had a week to vote on names lol) and we're already level 4.  With 150+ members I'm actually finding people willing to help with Guild Missions and material donations.  This might just be an alliance guild that sticks around!

So if you come across Pending Alliance Name [PAN], that's us!!

🙂 Well done and good hunting! May your bags be full!

[Mabi black.1824]

15 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Loving the doomer attitude here by some. Mostly by players who would rather have the mode continue on its failed trajectory even if their server is the last to remain.

I've said this in the past: WR is happening and the only one able to prevent it are the developers. Seems they managed to pull it off, or at least they believe they can. The step makes sense from a longevity standpoint and innate ability to balance the mode around fluctuating players numbers.

All those wasted hours on forum threads about how WR should not happen which could have been used instead to try to think of ways to improve the system.

Doesn't help with the un-fun balance we have right now, but maybe that will change once the new system is in place and new habits and approaches to the mode have formed.

All the discussions we do on the WR topic in this forum are exactly aimed at improving the system that Anet is proposing. We have repeatedly shared that WR is a great opportunity for our game mode. but it should be contextualized. Just for the fact that WVW is a squad/server-based mode. If you tell me that we launch WR 1 time a year, to reset the servers, to better redistribute guilds and alliances, to start the competition again on a server basis. Add transfers under control, add a new points system announced by Anet, add that the result is a season format. I'd be the first to be excited about the change coming on 14/06. I think it's a mistake to roll it into automatic mode every 4 weeks by an infallible algorithm capable of counting players, completely ignoring that WVW is a game based on team/server competition.

[RisingDawn.5796]

It's still a team/server thing, it's  just that the players not in guilds and guilds not affiliated with community guilds built for WR, will be reshuffled every 4 weeks now. You can make things similar as you want, if people want to organize things, otherwise you will see yourselves reshuffled like a link server every 4 weeks.

Transfers should be more under control, whereas since 2016, with Server Linking every 8 weeks, you would see mass transfers af times, completely destabilising the populations. Like how things are a bit like, right now, unstable, at the same time there was still some instability, when there were solo servers, cause even the first two years on deso saw drama and an mass exodus, only the active population of wvw, casual and pve guilds and players, did it rebuild, until they started Beta testing Server linkings.

Ideally we should have Alliances at this point though, rather than what the game mode has become.

Edited May 29 by RisingDawn.5796

[Mistwraithe.3106]

I'm skeptical. In principle WR is a good idea, it's a competitive mode and WR is a competitive way of doing it. In practice we've played for years in a server based mode and it's become very social for most of us.

I think those of us who are most competitive and primarily want to be in a competitive zerg vs zerg build will likely flourish. The rest, who enjoy the competition on a smaller scale but also enjoy the social aspect, not so much I suspect.

I also agree that drama and suffering from guild leadership bust-ups, whether group or personal, will inevitably be much higher with WR. Sure, there is drama sometimes on servers but you could pretty much always choose to ignore it and most of the people you knew would still be there. Quite different if your guild splits or, worse, you are banished for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. Don't laugh either, I've seen that happen, including very recently on a major guild on my server were some key lieutenants were unceremoniously dumped by the guild leader. That's pretty devastating on it's own but then no longer being able to play with any of your friends from that guild on the next relink is far worse.

That said - after talking about Alliances for so long Anet pretty much had to give it a go. Even if it ends in failure and they roll back to server vs server, they will at least be able to say they tried it.

Edited May 29 by Mistwraithe.3106

[RisingDawn.5796]

13 hours ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

I also agree that drama and suffering from guild leadership bust-ups, whether group or personal, will inevitably be much higher with WR. Sure, there is drama sometimes on servers but you could pretty much always choose to ignore it and most of the people you knew would still be there. Quite different if your guild splits or, worse, you are banished for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. Don't laugh either, I've seen that happen, including very recently on a major guild on my server were some key lieutenants were unceremoniously dumped by the guild leader. That's pretty devastating on it's own but then no longer being able to play with any of your friends from that guild on the next relink is far worse.

Drama is pretty much inevitable in this game mode. It's what we experienced between Guild leaders, during the first couple of years or even recently, since we got Server Linkings, because often you have two differing server communities, not always getting along well.

Server and guild leaders had alot of clashes, at least on my original server from 12 years ago, for the first couple of years and even during the past 7 years.

There was quite an exodus of guilds and commanders over the years, especially  once discord became actively used by wvw communities, instead of Teamspeak and community websites, both costing money, so if there was drama it would hit someone's wallet.

Edited May 30 by RisingDawn.5796

[Mistwraithe.3106]

7 minutes ago, RisingDawn.5796 said:

Drama is pretty much inevitable in this game mode. It's what we experienced between Guild leaders, during the first couple of years or even recently, since we got Server Linkings, because often you have two differing server communities, not always getting along well.

Sure. But there's a difference between drama which goes on around you and can be ignored, and drama which boots you from the community of your friends with no way back. Servers don't force you to leave and not play with your friends again. Guild leaders can and inevitably will under WR.

Edited May 29 by Mistwraithe.3106

[Thea Cherry.6327]

What confuses me is, that some people think the change will be positive which can be true for them, but they don't see that for many others it will be the death of the game mode and as we have seen the past years, we don't get new WvW players easily. So the overall WvW population will sink, not enough people will be coming back for this mode, because many left due to core WvW problems which are not adressed by the perma beta.

Let's wait and see how good/bad the change is in around 3-6 month (the playtime in the summer is usualy lower anyway), but right now i have a very bad feeling about this.

[Dawdler.8521]

31 minutes ago, Thea Cherry.6327 said:

What confuses me is, that some people think the change will be positive which can be true for them, but they don't see that for many others it will be the death of the game mode and as we have seen the past years, we don't get new WvW players easily. So the overall WvW population will sink, not enough people will be coming back for this mode, because many left due to core WvW problems which are not adressed by the perma beta.

Let's wait and see how good/bad the change is in around 3-6 month (the playtime in the summer is usualy lower anyway), but right now i have a very bad feeling about this.

… with the change happening just before all the summer holidays where people are shocked at the emptiness and proclaim WvW is dead every kitten year lol.

[One more for the road.8950]

45 minutes ago, Thea Cherry.6327 said:

What confuses me is, that some people think the change will be positive which can be true for them, but they don't see that for many others it will be the death of the game mode and as we have seen the past years, we don't get new WvW players easily. So the overall WvW population will sink, not enough people will be coming back for this mode, because many left due to core WvW problems which are not adressed by the perma beta.

Let's wait and see how good/bad the change is in around 3-6 month (the playtime in the summer is usualy lower anyway), but right now i have a very bad feeling about this.

Even if it can be true for some that staying like we currently are with servers will be positive for them, they don't see that for many others it's the death to the game mode, and as we have seen the past years, it doesn't get any better as people just keep leaving and the WvW population will continue to sink.

Let's wait and see how good/bad the WR change is in around 3-6 months (since the play time in summer is usually lower anyway).

Edited May 29 by One more for the road.8950

[Chaba.5410]

2 hours ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

drama which boots you from the community of your friends with no way back

I would kindly suggest they were not really your friends if they didn't leave the drama and go play with you instead.

[Mabi black.1824]

15 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

Even if it can be true for some that staying like we currently are with servers will be positive for them, they don't see that for many others it's the death to the game mode, and as we have seen the past years, it doesn't get any better as people just keep leaving and the WvW population will continue to sink.

Let's wait and see how good/bad the WR change is in around 3-6 months (since the play time in summer is usually lower anyway).

As if compromise didn't exist. As if we couldn't take advantage of such an innovative WR opportunity while maintaining a team WVW logic. Or you could add..... As if in the last 5 years we couldn't change the transfer system, or add a coefficient of game time/victory points to our point system to really highlight the team that won a match beyond the numbers, rather than bringing the map limit from 70 to 50 Whenever Anet wants/needs to force the redistribution of players or they will be queuing all day etc etc etc.

but no. or all black or all white. Let's pretend that what's in between doesn't exist at all. It's simpler.

[Mabi black.1824]

It should be a normal thing. If you think about it, if you use your intuition. We go from a team system forever to a team system every 4 weeks. It should just be a matter of common sense to go to an annual team system first. Then if you see that it's not working the way you thought it would, you'll roll WR every 6 months and so on. 

[One more for the road.8950]

21 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

As if compromise didn't exist. As if we couldn't take advantage of such an innovative WR opportunity while maintaining a team WVW logic. Or you could add..... As if in the last 5 years we couldn't change the transfer system, or add a coefficient of game time/victory points to our point system to really highlight the team that won a match beyond the numbers, rather than bringing the map limit from 70 to 50 Whenever Anet wants/needs to force the redistribution of players or they will be queuing all day etc etc etc.

but no. or all black or all white. Let's pretend that what's in between doesn't exist at all. It's simpler.

You realize I just turned what the earlier poster said on its head by rewriting what they wrote? 

[Mabi black.1824]

21 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

You realize I just turned what the earlier poster said on its head by rewriting what they wrote? 

Do you realize that I was referring to exactly that? you're asking for white while Thea Cherry is asking for black. while we should look at what can be in between. I, for one, can say that I don't want to stay where we have been sitting for a few years now. But with that in mind, I also have to tell you that where we are moving may not be a good solution or judge it as an incomplete solution or definitely not the only solution.

[Mabi black.1824]

Since Anet is working on a new points system, I want to tell you what would be for me (personally) the best solution to get a better competitive WVW. A more dynamic points system is needed, and the score should also be influenced by daily and weekly events (I'm talking about objectives e.g. capture a Garry in prime time get 1 extra point or bring the enemy baya to T3 within the next 2 hours get 1 extra point etc etc ) At the end of the week the servers get their provisional final score (as we have now) then this score is filtered by the 'flow coefficient' (hours of play) to get the true final score of the servers. The balance of mathematics is foolproof (while WR might make some mistakes) so we get a foolproof competitive score. It doesn't matter if he played a week with 20% fewer players than yours opponent, because the coefficient will be an infallible corrective to the final score. The ''competitive three-team'' profile is guaranteed '' at all times. even for the most broken matches you can imagine. The team that wins compared to the team that draws and the team that loses, will gain benefits for the next week (meaning to win or lose) by getting more gold or materials or items playing during that week. We keep a historical record of the games won, drawn and lost each week and build a ranking on this. At the end of the year the players of the 3 winning servers will receive a chest with a ''special item'' (the famous carrot) then. Finished the season. I use WR every 12 months. We reshuffle players, guilds, and alliances. New friends and new enemies, new competition. Every year you won't have anything taken for granted because it will always be decided by chance, by the mechanics of WR. Rinse and repeat.

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

32 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

Do you realize that I was referring to exactly that? you're asking for white while Thea Cherry is asking for black. while we should look at what can be in between. I, for one, can say that I don't want to stay where we have been sitting for a few years now. But with that in mind, I also have to tell you that where we are moving may not be a good solution or judge it as an incomplete solution or definitely not the only solution.

For sure, changing the system like this poses great risk.
But if we dying a slow death at 99% certainty, Id rather gamble with a new system for that 10% chance of it improving things in the long run.

For good or for ill, its happening anyway regardless of what we say.
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

[One more for the road.8950]

51 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

Do you realize that I was referring to exactly that? you're asking for white while Thea Cherry is asking for black. while we should look at what can be in between. I, for one, can say that I don't want to stay where we have been sitting for a few years now. But with that in mind, I also have to tell you that where we are moving may not be a good solution or judge it as an incomplete solution or definitely not the only solution.

... ok.
You do you.

[joneirikb.7506]

Regarding the 1 month relink and soon to be 1 month WR. They did say they wanted to change to that temporally for tests of WR. Which makes sense when you look at testing the WR system itself (getting as many reshuffling as possible, while also seeing how the balancing works with seeing teams start spreading out). Once they feel they have the Data then need out of it, they're likely to change the timer again, at least back to 2 months like it was. (So tiers actually have time to settle, before hew shuffle).

Though I wouldn't be surprised if they pushed it for 3 months eventually. I got the feeling they where surprised back when the player base voted mostly on 1 and 3 months linking time, and they ended up compromising on 2. It always felt like they had thought most players wanted 3 months.

[ArchonWing.9480]

14 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

That being said I have been asked to level up our alliance guild. Apparently I did something heinous in a past life. 😭

I didn't realize you had that much gold to spend.

My scribe is level 0 and will stay that way. Crafting sucks in this game, but scribe is like beyond that.

Edited May 29 by ArchonWing.9480

[keramatzmode.1906]

On 5/28/2024 at 9:10 AM, gerberlyfe.9736 said:

You will get ONE guild as an anchor point.  Everything else will shift around you like sand. FOREVER.

What do we gain?

• A player across the whole game can be recruited into a guild one month later on reset, instead of requiring server transfer.
• No more perma dominant servers, but they will of course be replaced by perhaps even more vicious elite alliances.

What are the consequences of this?

• Guild slots 2-6 will be useless for WvW players. Guild slots 2-6 will be an insulting tragedy when those relationships are shattered every month.
• Zerg mains will no longer have a stable population of roamers to chill with off-hours. Ever again, ever.
• Zerg mains will no longer have a stable population of secondary guilds with known commanders to run with. Ever again, ever.
• Roamer mains will never have a stable population of known zerg guilds to hot join. Ever again. Ever.
• Players who don't interact will the guild system will NEVER have any stability whatsoever.
• Guild Leaders now have the tyrannical and actually crazy power to take away the ONLY stability you have with a single click of a button, to throw you into the trash.

YOU WILL OWN NOTHING AND BE HAPPY.

You gain nothing from Restructuring. NOTHING. Your opponents already cycled through. If you had a bad matchup it ALREADY cycled away. If you wanted diversity it ALREADY cycled in.

The only thing this restructuring has done is shatter everything except a single guild that you can cling to.

You will never recognize the roamers again.  Every month they will be genocided and replaced for no reason.

You will never recognize  any other guild ever again. Every month they will be genocided and replaced for no reason.

You will never be able to maintain a Discord list of secondary guilds that you run with over months and years. Those relationships are shattered and nothing equivalent will ever form again because secondary guilds will shuffle away after a month. Every month they will be genocided and replaced for no reason.

There is nothing to be gained whatsoever from restructuring. It is a perpetual genocide of WvW. It is structurally guaranteed to turn you into a slave to your guild leader, and to turn every single other person in the entire game into a hostile and foreign stranger. 

You will never recognize another player for the rest of your career.

Every person that you encounter or DM, even if they are temporarily aligned with you, will be genocided within 30 days,

This is a monumental crisis and must be stopped immediately.

ArenaNet, you must CANCEL WVW RESTRUCTURING. DO NOT DO IT.

It's over for WvW. ArenaNet destroyed it.

1.  Shifting sands already happened with relinks and gem transfer exists. 
2.  Is it wrong for elite vicious players to band up with other fellow elite vicious players? Again, they can gem transfer.
3.  Why would you join other WvW guilds anyways? Just hop onto their discord server if you want to chat?
4.  This whole thing sounds like it's just a you problem. What if they never wanted to run with you in the first place, but you just happen to be in the server and didn't want to be rude. If they truly cared about you, they'd invite you in mega guild 6. Or you can make one yourself, and invite your "recognized" roamers and zerg mains. No one is stopping you. No one is stopping them.
5.  I have yet to see a tyranical WvW guild leaders... yet, from your description they sound like a Disney Villain rubbing hands and throwing guild members into the dungeon once every few weeks. Drama happens sure, but you're overblowing it as if every guild leaders a bunch of schemy dictator who kick people out on a whim.
6.  Again, you emphasize so much on recognizing "communities" and what other people are, their reputation, the cool "roamer" kids hanging out in front of smc, or the awesome commanders charging into SMC that you can hotjoin. But what about you? What do you bring to the table? If they cared about you, they will stick with you.

You cared too much about sense of *belonging* with your server community, you thought about them all the time, and it's your ultimate purpose of playing this video game: solely to exist as part of the server and recognized by others.
You moan about the importance of self-belonging and the friendship/reputation/camraderie in WvW, but from your post it seems you hate guilds and its system? (it's in the game title btw).
Start being kind towards yourself. You have self worth too, a WvW server is just a server. Accept the fact you yourself are not the whole server, and the whole server does not revolve around you.

[ArchonWing.9480]

9 minutes ago, keramatzmode.1906 said:

I have yet to see a tyranical WvW guild leaders... yet, from your description they sound like a Disney Villain rubbing hands and throwing guild members into the dungeon once every few weeks. Drama happens sure, but you're overblowing it as if every guild leaders a bunch of schemy dictator who kick people out on a whim.

I've seen a lot of wannabes but a lot of them are generally ineffective and self defeating.

Actual footage of a alliance dictator denying WvW players access.

 

Edited May 29 by ArchonWing.9480

[Junkpile.7439]

4 hours with same people is a lot, but 4 week sound like hell. Why not 4 hour matches like in EotM?

[One more for the road.8950]

20 minutes ago, keramatzmode.1906 said:

(...) I have yet to see a tyranical WvW guild leaders... yet, from your description they sound like a Disney Villain rubbing hands and throwing guild members into the dungeon once every few weeks. Drama happens sure, but you're overblowing it as if every guild leaders a bunch of schemy dictator who kick people out on a whim. (...)

Aren't they though?

On a more serious note, sometimes it can be more of a guild thing, but I have seen as little as one or two persons sour the environment for entire servers. Some server jump, some doesn't. And I'd rather not have to pay and move away from people I enjoy playing with because somebody else is an kitten, this way it'll be sorted ... "dynamically". Current system you're stuck with people if you want to or not, and you're the one that have to pay to get away from idiots.

Edited May 29 by One more for the road.8950