Panda.1967 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 (edited) On 6/14/2024 at 10:35 AM, Inssengrimm.7924 said: As any game is pay 2 win. You pay, you get better stuff. Pay 2 win is not this complex spectrum of options or anything, is simply a yes/no question. Can you pay for better stuff in GW2? Yes. It's pay 2 win then. GW2 is NOT pay to win. I am so sick and tired of people like you truing to redefine P2W as “can I buy stuff”… yes there is a cash shop, yes you can exchange cash shop currency for in game gold, no you can’t buy power. The gear you can buy with real money is the exact same gear you can get by either just playing the game or spending in game gold. Pay to win has ALWAYS been the ability to buy power and gain an advantage over those who do not. Pay for convenience has NEVER been P2W. Hell when the first P2W arguments about games started, gamers pushed for devs to implement pay for convenience as an acceptable alternative. who wins between the following two players in any sort of content? player a played for hundreds of hours and crafted a full set of legendary gear. player b spent hundreds of dollars on gems that they exchanged for gold and bought a full set of legendary gear. in a 1v1 PvP, who wins? The one with better skill at the game. in a raid who tops the DPS chart? The one who better understands their build. hm… funny it seems the one who’s played for hundreds of hours has all the advantages here… so P2W where? Sounds more P2L if you ask me. Convenience doesn't make you better at the game. Convenience doesn’t make you win. Convenience makes you overconfident and gears you for success, but it doesn’t hand you that success, you still have to put in the work if you want to win. Edited June 15 by Panda.1967 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suyheuti.1732 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 5 hours ago, Inssengrimm.7924 said: But thats not true. There are many, many games that are not P2W. Guild Wars 2 just isn't one of them. Sorry but your argument is unsense. There are not many games which are not p2w. Are we living in the same universe? Some people knows I am one of the top dissentients against Arenanet, but I tell the truth. Guild Wars 2 is not pay 2 win game. Not even close. If you are willing to pay money to make some progress, the only things you can are Legendary Weapons which are useless alone if you dont get the rest. Even if you pay 1 million dollar, you cant have trinkets and armors in this game. You can only buy some QoL items and cosmetic craps. TD,LR, if you want to win, you have to press the keyboard buttons, not insert the credit card. There is no another way. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya.9075 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 1 hour ago, Inssengrimm.7924 said: Too many to list. All the cash shop basically. Pay 2 Win is a yes/no question. Until the lute can do this, the answer is clearly no. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty.4806 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 No. They want a new game in a new engine. We want this too. Also, how else can they remove warrior?? 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 31 minutes ago, Kitty.4806 said: No. They want a new game in a new engine. We want this too. Also, how else can they remove warrior?? No, "We" definitely don't want this. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inssengrimm.7924 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 4 hours ago, Suyheuti.1732 said: Guild Wars 2 is not pay 2 win game. Not even close. Is by definition, by mere reason of having a cash shop, a Pay 2 Win game. Has always been, always will be. If you want to argue is less or more P2W than other games, thats you blurrying the definition so you are comfortable with it. But Guild Wars 2 is a Pay 2 Win game through and through. Imagine NCSoft of all companies having white knights, lmao. 1 1 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoni.7015 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 3 hours ago, Inssengrimm.7924 said: Is by definition, by mere reason of having a cash shop, a Pay 2 Win game. Has always been, always will be. If you want to argue is less or more P2W than other games, thats you blurrying the definition so you are comfortable with it. But Guild Wars 2 is a Pay 2 Win game through and through. Imagine NCSoft of all companies having white knights, lmao. You don’t know what pay2win means, thanks for demonstrating that. 1 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, yoni.7015 said: You don’t know what pay2win means, thanks for demonstrating that. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4i3S82hoYTY "Exactly, well said. It baffles me how so many people can't understand this very simple concept. P2W is not exclusive to PvP scenarios and it's also not exclusive to simply paying for power. If you can pay to circumvent gameplay systems then it classifies as a form of P2W. Way too many people get hung up on the literal meaning of P2W (paying to win) when in actuality it's just an umbrella term that encompasses various types purchases that affect gameplay. Literally paying to win is part of that spectrum, and so is paying for convenience. The important defining detail is that the developers are creating problems in order to sell solutions." "It is pay 2 win. Legendary is stronger than Exotic. Boosters in cash shop provide increased stats." Edited June 16 by Burnfall.9573 1 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costepj.5120 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 (edited) 2 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said: "It is pay 2 win. Legendary is stronger than Exotic. Boosters in cash shop provide increased stats." Which would be relevent IF the only way to get legendaries or boosters was to buy them from the gem store. But I have both without having paid for anything except the core game and expansions. GW2 is pay to play and, in some scenarios, pay not to play, but it's not pay to win. Edited June 16 by costepj.5120 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suyheuti.1732 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 (edited) 7 hours ago, Inssengrimm.7924 said: Is by definition, by mere reason of having a cash shop, a Pay 2 Win game. Has always been, always will be. If you want to argue is less or more P2W than other games, thats you blurrying the definition so you are comfortable with it. But Guild Wars 2 is a Pay 2 Win game through and through. Imagine NCSoft of all companies having white knights, lmao. I answer this one more time and that will be all. Because I dont have patience or time to argue with that stupid argument. Dont you see what I wrote? In cash shop, they sell some QoL items (doesnt effect winning or losing) and some cosmetic bullcraps which are only visuals. If you are noob, even spending millions of dollars to this game wont make you pro. Just that makes you better looking noob. Comprende? Edited June 16 by Suyheuti.1732 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 (edited) 4 hours ago, Suyheuti.1732 said: I answer this one more time and that will be all. Because I dont have patience or time to argue with that stupid argument. Dont you see what I wrote? In cash shop, they sell some QoL items (doesnt effect winning or losing) and some cosmetic bullcraps which are only visuals. If you are noob, even spending millions of dollars to this game wont make you pro. Just that makes you better looking noob. Comprende? this isn't about "noob" vs "pro", this is about paying to gain advantage Who deterrmines whose "pro' or "noob'? This is why I do not worship "pro" players nor nor do I support them nor post their videos on my posts. The moment I find out that they are putting down, belittling, insulting "noob" players just because they grind to get the best gears, top stats, I immediately unfollow them and unsubscribe them. Period!! At the end of the day, it is Business as usual. Anet makes profit by selling us advantages Edited June 16 by Burnfall.9573 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poormany.4507 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 10 hours ago, Inssengrimm.7924 said: Is by definition, by mere reason of having a cash shop, a Pay 2 Win game. By that definition, if a game has a cash shop that only sells tacky clown costumes, is that pay 2 win to you? What gameplay advantage would anyone gain from buying those over someone who does not? Same thing in GW2, what gameplay advantage does someone gain if they buy sparkly bunny ears in the gem store than someone who does not? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 (edited) 5 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4i3S82hoYTY "Exactly, well said. It baffles me how so many people can't understand this very simple concept. P2W is not exclusive to PvP scenarios and it's also not exclusive to simply paying for power. If you can pay to circumvent gameplay systems then it classifies as a form of P2W. Way too many people get hung up on the literal meaning of P2W (paying to win) when in actuality it's just an umbrella term that encompasses various types purchases that affect gameplay. Literally paying to win is part of that spectrum, and so is paying for convenience. The important defining detail is that the developers are creating problems in order to sell solutions." That is true, there are degrees of "pay to win". For some any type of skipping content or getting something faster can mean pay to win. For others it can be convenience items without the game is unplayable (literally unplayable, some games sell skill bars without which you can't even place a decent amount of necessary skills). For many pay to win means getting an advantage which you otherwise are not able to acquire in game, or the time investment is so ludicrous igh it similar to not being able to acquire the items (see Diablo Immortal or your beloved Throne and Liberty. It takes many years and in D:I case even life times to circumvent the cash shop benefits). That's why I said, while each person gets to individually decide where their definition lies, when discussing pay to win it's useful, nay important, to distinguish which degree of pay to win one talks about. Otherwise you get a situation where predatory games like Throne and Liberty or Diablo or Black Desert Online, etc. get lumped together with more mild games like GW2. It's then also possible to disagree with each other in a constructive manner because everyone can clearly state what level of predatory practices one considers pay to win. For many, paying for skins or convenience, while annoying, is not immediately pay to win, even less if one is not barred from attaining those same items in game. Finally: you are comparing exotic to legendary, intentionally ignoring ascended gear. That's basically lying in disguise (and I have no problem calling it that strait up) because your argument goes out the window when comparing legendary gear to ascended stat wise (since they are the same). Edited June 16 by Cyninja.2954 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August.5934 Posted June 16 Author Share Posted June 16 17 hours ago, Inssengrimm.7924 said: Is a yes / no question. Can you buy advantages over other players? Yes? Then is P2W. If you wanna argue if its agressively P2W, passively P2W, barely P2W, those are just you moving the line one way or another. But the line of being P2W was crossed the moment the game had a cash shop. Every single item in Gem-store, you can buy them by converting gold into gems! Friend: Huuf, it cost me more then 100€ to get this inventory slots, character slots & the permanent salvage kits. It's so big advantage over other player! Those who say GW2 ain't pw2 is real dumbo fr! Me: oh, i already have those and yes GW2 isn't p2w. Friend: wtf? you high bro? You just said you have all of them Me: yes i have because i play game & enjoy it. Game showers me golds & items everywhere. Lots of events everywhere i go. I just converted few golds i have into gems and bought everything i needed over time. Friend: (makes clown face) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poormany.4507 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said: this isn't about "noob" vs "pro", this is about paying to gain achievements What achievements are you talking about, the skin collection ones? Nobody has to do those and you can't distinguish AP points from those versus those gained through in-game achievements. I have never even though about paying to gain achievements in GW2 and I've been playing since launch... Edited June 16 by Poormany.4507 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanBB.4268 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 6 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4i3S82hoYTY "Exactly, well said. It baffles me how so many people can't understand this very simple concept. P2W is not exclusive to PvP scenarios and it's also not exclusive to simply paying for power. If you can pay to circumvent gameplay systems then it classifies as a form of P2W. Way too many people get hung up on the literal meaning of P2W (paying to win) when in actuality it's just an umbrella term that encompasses various types purchases that affect gameplay. Literally paying to win is part of that spectrum, and so is paying for convenience. The important defining detail is that the developers are creating problems in order to sell solutions." "It is pay 2 win. Legendary is stronger than Exotic. Boosters in cash shop provide increased stats." Well then all the gamers redefining "P2W" need to come up with a new term. Just because I proclaim "dirt" to now be called "zerb" doesn't make it so. Just because a game has a cash shop doesn't make it P2W. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 6 minutes ago, Poormany.4507 said: What achievements are you talking about, the skin collection ones? Nobody has to do those and you can't distinguish AP points from those versus those gained through in-game achievements. I have never even though about paying to gain achievements in GW2 and I've been playing since launch... Achievements as in to gain advantage 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 11 minutes ago, DeanBB.4268 said: Well then all the gamers redefining "P2W" need to come up with a new term. Just because I proclaim "dirt" to now be called "zerb" doesn't make it so. Just because a game has a cash shop doesn't make it P2W. So let me ask you a question, lets call the game cash shop "convenience items', does enticing players to buy convenience items in the cash shop pay to win? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suyheuti.1732 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 6 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said: Achievements as in to gain advantage What archievements? What are you talking about? My account is 12 years old, I havent seen an archievement which is paid and after that I get any advantage, yet. I know very valuable archievements. One of them is “The Facet of Prism and Boundless Light” . This archievement is the most expensive archievement in the game now. Can you get this with credit card? No way, only advantage will be “you can convert gems to gold and buy Memory of Aurenes and Jade Runestones”. You cannot buy karma or spirit shard. Either way, you need to put your butt on the chair and grind that for weeks. The another is “Season of the Dragons”. The only thing you can do with the money is buying Living Worlds if you dont have it. It takes same amount time comparing a broke player and rich player. So tell me what archievements are those? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindBlade.8749 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 On 6/4/2024 at 8:56 PM, DeanBB.4268 said: How would all that rework generate income for Anet? What about people who have no interest in story? They just won't play GW2? Actually, much of what you are requesting sounds more like a GW3. I mean i could see them reworking core map 1 by 1, each will have a new reworked meta events, with new skins/mini/achievemnts, that basicly the same as new maps for player content wise and will make the new players experience better. Just reworking graphic without anything else is a bad idea. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 12 hours ago, Inssengrimm.7924 said: Is by definition, by mere reason of having a cash shop, a Pay 2 Win game. Has always been, always will be. Okay, if merely having a cash shop is enough to qualify, please, do show me a succesful MMORPG game that does not fit your definition. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poormany.4507 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Inssengrimm.7924 said: Adquisition/Resource gathering power through inventory slots and unbreakable/infinite/special tools that get you extra resources. You can buy those with gold-> gem conversion. Also resource collection is basically free without buying gem store boosts. Just buy 5 stacks of gathering tools with in-game coins obtained in < 30 minutes of play. 57 minutes ago, Inssengrimm.7924 said: Character boosting, level 80 power is higher than level 79 power. You might want to consider that an irrelevant diference, but it is still more power. It's extremely easy to level in GW2. You can easily speed level from 79 -> 80 in < 15-20 minutes. Also, tomes of leveling can be very easily bought using in-game coins or even more so through WvW. I have never felt the need to use level boosts in my 12 years of playing because it's so easy (and more fun) to do so by actually playing the game. 57 minutes ago, Inssengrimm.7924 said: Equipment and Stats, you can literally purchase the best weapons in game with gems. It doesn't get more P2W than that. Also can be easily bought using in-game coins. Also, since they're so easily obtainable in-game, even getting them without knowing how to play the game (skills, rotations, strategy) is near useless to actually winning. Not white-knighting as I've had plenty of criticism for GW2, but being pay-to-win is far from one them. Edited June 16 by Poormany.4507 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 21 hours ago, Inssengrimm.7924 said: I said the whole cash shop What do you win with a mail carrier skin? A finisher skin? A mount skin? A weapon skin? An armor piece skin? A minipet? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inculpatus cedo.9234 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 3 hours ago, Inssengrimm.7924 said: But its clear that GW2 is P2W. Did someone highjack your account, as this seems to completely contradict your previous posts: 1 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 9 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said: Did someone highjack your account, as this seems to completely contradict your previous posts: Good catch but it might be that back in the day they liked the game and now they dont. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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