Why are Cele stats still in WvW, when they are removed in PvP for a reason ?

[Cuks.8241]

On 6/18/2024 at 1:14 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

So what are we realistically looking at here that even uses full cele or mostly full cele?

1. Definitely Ele - imo this is the only class that really "abuses" celestial stats, both in roaming and zerging - doesn't even matter what build you run, if you run Ele and put cele on it, it'll be strong
2. Druid - if you play it right, it has top tier performance with cele setups in roaming, but it's the only ranger spec that can truly utilize cele, it aint bad in a zerg either
3. Harbinger - i've straight seen some cele Harbingers that feel just "too strong" in 1v1s, however, as I said before, they are BAD if caught 1v2, they die easily - not so optimal in zerg though, the blight stacks decreasing max health is like what you don't want while zerging
4. Reaper - cele good in zergs but not so hot in roaming, gets out-kited too easily
5. Scourge - cele is very very strong still in zerging, really no use roaming though, too slow
6. Firebrand SA Burn - they say it's meta, but I aint feeling it tbh - almost didn't put it in this list
7. Condiserk - I mean... good 1v1er, has bad kiting, gets floored as soon as it comes against 1v2, not so much utility in zerg
8. Renegades - excellent roamer 1v1 with cele, but it just can't kite man, it gets chewed up by more mobile roamers, it can't live through 1v2/1vX ect ect, and not such an effective zerg component
9. Mirage - old cele setups still in play that are now so watered down I rarely even see them nowadays, and when I do, I don't find them so threatening

Cele renegade for zerging. Offensive support. Definitely meta. Alacrity, close to full uptime, alacrity enables some very strong alternative comps that just don't work otherwise. Huge unblockable strips via banish enchantment although a bit harder to execute because it's in a line. But if your group can focus it's a complete killer. Also can strip stability specifically with Brutality. Nice boons (alacrity, might, fury, stability) and utility (leap and aoe pull, 50% dmg reduction for party in dwarf). On top I still do about 1/4 of dmg of pure dps and I have lot's of room for improvement still.

As for cele firebrand. I think it can work but in specific setups. But some think it's a replacement for Firebrand support. It's not. Also quite squishy.

[joneirikb.7506]

Just have to say that it's actually nice to see a normal Celestial complaint thread again. There's been so much WR  posts, and it made me realize that the forum/world just isn't the same without a Cele complaint thread. So finding this thread felt kind of comforting, like it enforced a little bit of normalcy upon the forums, telling me that tomorrow will still come and there will be another Cele thread for me to read.

[TheGrimm.5624]

2 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

Looking forward for your activist campaign to make Soldier and Sentinel gear good.

That was the 2014-2016 campaign if I remember correctly when Zerks complained they couldn't one shot everything and PVT was OP. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

25 minutes ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

Just have to say that it's actually nice to see a normal Celestial complaint thread again. There's been so much WR  posts, and it made me realize that the forum/world just isn't the same without a Cele complaint thread. So finding this thread felt kind of comforting, like it enforced a little bit of normalcy upon the forums, telling me that tomorrow will still come and there will be another Cele thread for me to read.

lol.

Well the WR issue started since Anet continued to give every class a power build, condi build, support build and hybrid build. So after more classes gained a hybrid build, Cele came along and was such a massive force, it collapsed the worlds/servers so WR was born in the vacuum of the missing servers. In the end the WR is all due to Cele. So they are the same threads, now where did I put that torch, nope that's the pitch fork....ah there it is.

BURN THE DUCK!

[RedShark.9548]

8 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

Looking forward for your activist campaign to make Soldier and Sentinel gear good.

Ofc you pick out the most obscure stats. 

Great sign of not having a reasonable argument. 

If they dont remove them, they should definately lower the amount of stats you gain again. Its too much of a no brainer to slap on those stats. Too much dmg while being too tanky. 

[Dean Calaway.9718]

17 minutes ago, RedShark.9548 said:

Ofc you pick out the most obscure stats. 

Great sign of not having a reasonable argument.

Soldier gear was the default given with Level 80 boosters for many years, it was also in most Dungeon vendors.

oBsCuRe!

[RedShark.9548]

8 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

Soldier gear was the default given with Level 80 boosters for many years, it was also in most Dungeon vendors.

oBsCuRe!

Sure, how many people are actually using it nowadays and not throw it away as soon as they find any other statcomp. Just because anet gives out soldier stats, doesnt mean they are used. You are reaching. 

Its obscure to see someone running around in those stats. 

Sick strawman 

Edited June 20 by RedShark.9548

[Dean Calaway.9718]

On 6/20/2024 at 12:40 AM, RedShark.9548 said:

it being the most picked  stat combination, then its unbalanced compared to other stat combinations

 

13 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

Looking forward for your activist campaign to make Soldier and Sentinel gear good

 

4 hours ago, RedShark.9548 said:

Its obscure to see someone running around in those stats. 

You are the one strawmaning.

If you're complaining stats other than celestial aren't being picked because they aren't as good, then why aren't you campaigning to make stats not used at all decent enough to actually be used?

Congratulations, you played yourself.

[joneirikb.7506]

Amusingly, Soldier stats used to be very common.
* Most classes free-gear with the instant 80 was soldier
* Common stat set to get from both karma vendors and wvw vendors
* Was actually considered a decent/good stat set back in early wvw, was even meta in zergs at one point.
* The original Legendaries came as Exotic 80 with soldier stats, and no way to change them (Man I wish that was still a thing)

[Coldtart.4785]

Power damage drops off massively if you run cele compared to zerker/marauder/dragon but condi pressure is pretty much at the same level as trailblazer. This is the only real problem with cele; condi requires too little stat investment to be good.

[RaveOnYou.2819]

On 6/18/2024 at 2:14 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Well at first I would have thought the same. But after many months now of experimenting with different roam builds, this is generally what I've identified as optimal on various classes, as full cele actually is not often the best bet:

1. Ranger things - Soulbeast still wants full serk to fulfill the role of a mobile sniper and wall defense - Druid is a rare exception that actually does want full cele + divinity runes even - Untamed revolves too much around pet and isn't really relevant in wvw for this reason, it also has very limited mobility compared to Soulebeast/Druid
2. Necromancer things - I run Power Reaper with a mix of serk/valk stats essentially, with speed relic and sword for maximum mobility, it absolutely shreds 90% of cele builds if you approach right and ride the pressure without giving them air to breath - Harb is best with full cele, without a doubt, it's very strong in 1v1, but it is very bad in 1v2 or 1vX situations, it simply has no real kite power or mechanics to stall 1vX, and it gets trucked on by small groups if caught at all - Scourge is imo best with cele, but it's a bad roamer, it is however amazing while zerging - I know others are running cele-shout Reaper in zergs, which is good, but I feel it is no better than a well designed power variant, which is somehow being overlooked right now in the meta
3. Guardian things - Dragonhunter I run essentially a mix of berserker/cele, probably about 70% serk and 30% cele - Willbender I straight run marauder/valk, only enough marauder to reach about 45% crit - Firebrand, even though meta says cele is the IN thing to do on Firebrand, I definitely feel like it's enormously squishy with cele and still best as a full support mostly minstrel based
4. Warrior things - Cele Condi Serk is another exception, however strong it is in 1v1, it is bad when focused, simply can't survive 1v2s and 1vXs as well as other roamers and it has very limited usage in a zerg, it's best in small groups 4-5, not actual yolo roaming - DPS Serk marauder/serk is great in zerging - other war specs not so hot in wvw atm
5. Engi things - Engi is just bad in general in wvw roaming and zerging, but if you really want to make it work, it has to be a Tool Holo and he's best with marauder/serk mix
6. Thief things - Running cele on any thief spec is an illusion of safety where it makes it so you can't kill anything, but you still die real fast if juggled at the right time, your latent attributes really don't support the amplification of cele stats, and cele doesn't really stack well with the use of stealth & mobility as cele is meant for tanking - I find the best bet here for optimization is still to run full DPS marauder/serk variants on any thief spec, it's just the only way to be effective
7. Rev things - Most successful roamers I see are def cele Renegades - Rev has little use in zergs though, outside of a full support Vindi with minstrel
8. Mes things - eeeeh old cele Mirage is still ok but they do not pack the potency they once had - like with DH, I use mixes of cele + other stats for various Mirage builds to enhance the DPS so you can actually kill things - Mirage is still necessary for roaming due to jaunt disengage - For zergs, I don't find any mes build to have anything important that would warrant bringing it over a different class
9. ELE things - Literally everything about Ele is optimized with the use cele or near full cele, roamer or zerging - I actually find that there is little to no reason at all to every use any stat other than cele in wvw when it comes to Ele

So what are we realistically looking at here that even uses full cele or mostly full cele?

1. Definitely Ele - imo this is the only class that really "abuses" celestial stats, both in roaming and zerging - doesn't even matter what build you run, if you run Ele and put cele on it, it'll be strong
2. Druid - if you play it right, it has top tier performance with cele setups in roaming, but it's the only ranger spec that can truly utilize cele, it aint bad in a zerg either
3. Harbinger - i've straight seen some cele Harbingers that feel just "too strong" in 1v1s, however, as I said before, they are BAD if caught 1v2, they die easily - not so optimal in zerg though, the blight stacks decreasing max health is like what you don't want while zerging
4. Reaper - cele good in zergs but not so hot in roaming, gets out-kited too easily
5. Scourge - cele is very very strong still in zerging, really no use roaming though, too slow
6. Firebrand SA Burn - they say it's meta, but I aint feeling it tbh - almost didn't put it in this list
7. Condiserk - I mean... good 1v1er, has bad kiting, gets floored as soon as it comes against 1v2, not so much utility in zerg
8. Renegades - excellent roamer 1v1 with cele, but it just can't kite man, it gets chewed up by more mobile roamers, it can't live through 1v2/1vX ect ect, and not such an effective zerg component
9. Mirage - old cele setups still in play that are now so watered down I rarely even see them nowadays, and when I do, I don't find them so threatening

So like, those 9 builds out of every possible build, are using cele.

But which ones are really "abusing" cele or "too strong" or "too useful, too much utility"? Honestly man, it's really just Eles & Necros that make cele look bloated. Because it's like no matter what specialization/build that Eles/Necros use, cele will work on it, and it will be strong. So it makes cele look "dominant" or "the obvious choice" but this really is only the case with Ele & Necro.

At least imo, that's what I see going on.

elementalist has lowest health and armor class in this game, if we compare to warrior it has 8000 lower hp and 300 lower armor. its like ele already stating with 1100 less stats which had to be fullfilled by other things. while heavy classes dont use toughness stat trinkets, ele have to put at least three piece to come same level of defense. while heavy classes can survive with berserkers, assasins ele should go full marauder etc. etc. and dont come up with survivale traits etc. because nowadays all classes has strong traits and at least one self healing, cleansing option in their arms. elementalist has no unbunga stealth mechanics of thief, jumping skills of blue child or boon corruption/toughness pumping of necro.

[Chrome.9841]

Anet wants to keep new and untalented people in-game is the quick answer of your question.

That mainly started with tanky condition builds, but if their enemies have a lot of cleanses, they still fail to match people who are good with fighting. In past, except for ele and revenants, hybrid builds were not so good for many classes. Because specially weapon skills were based on condition or power. Now weapon skills are hybrid too. So many people from past resisted playing cele for a long time but Anet keep buffed hybrid builds while cutting the strenght of power builds (such like cc damage). At the end talented people started playing hybrid builds too and now a lot of god mode players roaming around. New and untalented players are still getting slapped easily, game lost it's variety of builds (for stats).

 

[TheGrimm.5624]

10 hours ago, RedShark.9548 said:

Sure, how many people are actually using it nowadays and not throw it away as soon as they find any other statcomp. Just because anet gives out soldier stats, doesnt mean they are used. You are reaching. 

Its obscure to see someone running around in those stats. 

Sick strawman 

lol, and how many toons are you playing on all the various options? Is this a 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon test? Strawman, straw we can ignite, ignite means fire, fire means roast, roast means burn, ducks float as do witches, burn the witch! Got it.

[CafPow.1542]

My break didn’t change anything i see. Still ye ol‘e „i can’t oneshot stuff which would be way higher skill than you avoiding my lmao-combo“

 

lol

[TheGrimm.5624]

Just now, CafPow.1542 said:

My break didn’t change anything i see. Still ye ol‘e „i can’t oneshot stuff which would be way higher skill than you avoiding my lmao-combo“

 

lol

Welcome back! Don't worry the sky is still falling everywhere and now with WR the ground is opening up and swallowing everyone! 

"Bring out your dead! Bring out your dead!"

🙂 

[CafPow.1542]

6 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Welcome back! Don't worry the sky is still falling everywhere and now with WR the ground is opening up and swallowing everyone! 

"Bring out your dead! Bring out your dead!"

🙂 

Yeah i admit that i don’t fancy the WR and there are issues but it’s really not the apocalypse the forums make it to be every time.

but i love these overdramatic divas 😄

[TheGrimm.5624]

16 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Yeah i admit that i don’t fancy the WR and there are issues but it’s really not the apocalypse the forums make it to be every time.

but i love these overdramatic divas 😄

I mean drama lamas are for the win! 🙂 

[Hotride.2187]

On 6/18/2024 at 12:29 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Coming from someone who has over 30,000 games played in GW2 pvp, I'm telling you right now that wvw strangely actually has better competitive balance than pvp at this point

Everyone uses the same stats -> better balance.

This is actually true, in a weird sort of way. Its also an excellent show of balance when 2 cele builds fight for 20 min and there is no end in sight. How more balanced do you want the game to be? No one can kill anyone, nature is in balance.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Everyone uses the same stats -> better balance.

True, nothing is more balanced than Ryu vs. Ryu.

2 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Its also an excellent show of balance when 2 cele builds fight for 20 min and there is no end in sight. How more balanced do you want the game to be? No one can kill anyone, nature is in balance.

I don't usually have a problem with that.

I'd say probably 8/10 cele duels I get, definitely end where someone dies after 2-4 minutes. Probably 1/10 results in someone peeling and running away, which he survives but he still had to retreat. And probably 1/10 results in actual stalemates where no one has to run and they are able to perpetually survive while in each other's face forever, until someone gets bored and leaves.

I'd also say those ratios stay intact when describing serk/marauder encounters as well actually. Same ratios for when I encounter DP Daredevils & Willbenders as example.

Edited June 21 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[KrHome.1920]

Quote

Why are Cele stats still in WvW, when they are removed in PvP for a reason ?

That was indeed a missed opportunity. ANet should have removed all but celestial. That would have been better for everyone. Over the years the game has become too complex to balance properly for that company.

[manu.7539]

Celes builds arent really an issue compare to the so many power creep builds.

[RazieL.5684]

the other day i was trying to ress some dude and i got jumped by a thief from stealth critting me for 13k twilight combo on my omg broken overpowered unkillable cele ele that takes literally 0 damage from anything and can never die... that's about 75% of my health in 1 click of a button... might be fun for him... not fun for me... but you want to make this the standard of gameplay? thanks but no thanks... besides... i'm pretty sure that if you are dying to someone in cele you would also die to them in trailblaizers...

if you want to remove cele because of "gEaR hOmOgEnY nObOdY uSeS oThEr StAtS" - remove berserker, marauder and dragon gear as well, that way we will lower somewhat the broken damage of power classes that can nuke you before the connection of your dodge button reaches the game server, and everyone will be happy.

i say it pretty much in every cele thread in which i bothered to write - if you have issues with cele just bring some cleanse... you can cleanse condi damage but you can't cleanse power damage so their whole burst can be removed before it even damages you so what's your issue? you couldn't kill someone by spamming heartseaker and now you cry on the forums?

[igmolicious.5986]

4 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Everyone uses the same stats -> better balance.

This is actually true, in a weird sort of way. Its also an excellent show of balance when 2 cele builds fight for 20 min and there is no end in sight. How more balanced do you want the game to be? No one can kill anyone, nature is in balance.

The longest fight I've ever had in cele vs. cele was 10 minutes vs a holosmith, and we both just gave up and walked away to get our timers sorted out. MOST fights are over in a couple minutes at most, and actually rely on acting and reacting properly to what's happening in the fight instead of just pumping out a massive burst before the other person can react. To me this is a lot more fun since it requires some actual thinking instead of just mash X buttons as quickly as possible -- though when I use my marauder/dragon geared thief, I can understand some of the appeal of bursting down people in seconds, and only really needing to worry about groups but it also gets boring pretty quick for me and i want more engaging fights.

Edited June 21 by igmolicious.5986

[bq pd.2148]

46 minutes ago, igmolicious.5986 said:

The longest fight I've ever had in cele vs. cele was 10 minutes vs a holosmith, and we both just gave up and walked away to get our timers sorted out. MOST fights are over in a couple minutes at most, and actually rely on acting and reacting properly to what's happening in the fight instead of just pumping out a massive burst before the other person can react. To me this is a lot more fun since it requires some actual thinking instead of just mash X buttons as quickly as possible -- though when I use my marauder/dragon geared thief, I can understand some of the appeal of bursting down people in seconds, and only really needing to worry about groups but it also gets boring pretty quick for me and i want more engaging fights.

i suppose that depends on how one does roam. i could see such longer fights appealing when you duel, but i primarily try to take objectives or defend them while getting fights around/for them. if the fights drag on too long, then either side usually gets some reinforcements turning it into pure numbers game so i do prefer faster encounters.

i had like 5 longer (2-3 minute) fights in the last 3 months against probably cele players,  but 4 of them were open field and the last was me interrupting someone building their cata. otherwise i doubt any of those fights would have remained 1vs1 and 2 of them i disengaged from boredom as the enemy would have to facetank 2 full bursts in a row to not recover.. while i was on dragon, with both players on cele i can't imagine the amount of fails it would take for them to die, so i am not sure if i would consider a cele vs cele draw engaging.

people also avoided instant deaths plenty times in a row back before 2020, when we all still did damage, now i face tank many skills i would have always avoided, because they are not worth the bother.

[CafPow.1542]

16 hours ago, RazieL.5684 said:

the other day i was trying to ress some dude and i got jumped by a thief from stealth critting me for 13k twilight combo on my omg broken overpowered unkillable cele ele that takes literally 0 damage from anything and can never die... that's about 75% of my health in 1 click of a button... might be fun for him... not fun for me... but you want to make this the standard of gameplay? thanks but no thanks... besides... i'm pretty sure that if you are dying to someone in cele you would also die to them in trailblaizers...

But it takes so much skill for that glasscannon-thief to press his 1 wombo-combo how DARE you not dying instantly only because you are confronted with that godlike disparity of skill!

 

you surviving that and force the dude to retreat the next 3 minutes where you have to press all your buttons in the correct way ofc is something else. You just get carried by cele yeah.

 

*turns irony off*