Why are Cele stats still in WvW, when they are removed in PvP for a reason ?

[zinkz.7045]

27 minutes ago, Every day pon.5386 said:

WvW is the blend of PvE & SPvP roleplaying at PvP.

I've corrected that for you.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

2 hours ago, Auragen.4162 said:

Yes because core cele ele is the only build capable of using cele everyone knows that....

The mental gymnastics olympics right here

If cele is as busted as you guys claim, then core Ele on celestial should be destroying everyone and everything on it's path, yet it doesn't happen. Why is that? Maybe... because of busted e-speces~ I wonder what it is~🤭

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said:

You are reading the data wrong.. They are meta builds because they fullfill the role of the typical roaming strategy best. Which is killing people that are allready in a disadvantage quickly and be able to disengage when facing problems. They can deal with a cele build via avoiding to fight it 1v1 and ganking it when outnumbered for sure.

I honestly don't think you're out actively roaming very often if at all. If you were, you'd know that this is what's happening in modern roaming:

1. Nearly complete lack of warrior presence.
2. A LOT of Willbenders going on, and they wear serk/marauder/dragon/valk.
3. Cele Renegades - This is one of the builds that wears cele, but it's slow and gets ran over 2v1 very easily. It's a duel build, not a real roamer.
4. Nearly complete lack of Engi in roaming, but full dps power stat Holos are being spammed in zergs as meta right now.
5. All kinds of different stats being used on various Ranger variants for roaming. Ranger is still a top roaming class.
6. DP and SD Daredevils and Deadeyes, yup they all wear power burst stats.
7. Cele Harbingers - Another duel build that gets ran over in 2v1 too easily to be considered a real roamer. It does wear cele though.
8. Cele Eles all types - Literally good at every job & role while wearing cele. It isn't just a duel build, these are actually top roamers.
9. Mirages wearing all different stat types, from power burst to hybrid burst to condi tanks to cele builds.

5 out of 9 things here can actually wear cele and be good with it. 2 out of those 5 are hard locked into being cele duelists that suck at surviving 2v1 situations and due to this, they can never truly be good at roaming. Only 3 out of these 9 things can be real roamers while running cele, this is Ranger, Ele, Mirage. And even 2 out of 3 of these top roamers, see mixed stat variants all over the place and maybe 50% of them you encounter are actually running cele. Ele is the only true roamer that cele benefits so much, that there is no reason to use any other stat line in any situation.

I think some of you guys are so hard-stuck on this cele thing, that you don't realize most of the things that are killing you in yolo roaming, are actually wearing power stats with boosted boon durations and a bit of extra vitality. I think a lot of you guys just assume "oh it's wearing cele" when it isn't.

2 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said:

Dude it was you who was sh!tposting about the 1v1 stuff.

No. I made a statement that would be true in 95% of any other situation in real roaming that wasn't entirely suspicious, that I can oneshot cele builds with my Soulbeast, and that is true. The sh!tposting began after the first duel, when him and his buddies tried to use the result not as a way to further discussion, but to repeatedly call me out and insult me, and try to make me look bad.

2 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said:

That came all from you. And it turned out you couldn't. Not even the build you tailored to counter a cele ranger without stab worked.

There you go again, ignoring all the data presented to you. Go reread through it again. The fact is that what was presented shows that the Serk DH certainly would have oneshot his cele build if there weren't outstanding mathematical anomalies occurring that can't be explained, from the random double heals, to the nearly 50% DPS loss during the burst when even his own DPS meter was saying I was dealing twice the damage that he took, to this guy walking over DH traps that don't hit him when it would have put him down.

You can go on and on about this, but w/e happened there "careful what i say" it wasn't right and you know it. So knock it off and move past this.

2 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said:

Ok fair enough. Of cause neither me nor you can provide mathematical solutions to this discussion especially with our very limited data as players. All i can add is my personal experience of 10k hours of roaming/dueling and the consensus amoung players that i talk to who have in my opinion the same skill\exp or more to form an educated guess on that topic. I just don't know anyone that can beat a player on the same skill level on a good cele build while playing power. I did/do the same as you here over and over: roam, spam\watch duels on bersi/mix builds vs cele builds and the results are the same yours here. I can beat unaware or worse players than me on burst builds consistent until at one point i hit the brick wall. Then i switch to a cele build and destroy the same player. It would have been nice if you showcased something different like you promised and i'd happily change my mind but you didn't. You can allways fight me on my cele cata and show me what ive slept on if you like tho.

I see what you're saying, but everything you mention here is still what I've been trying to point out to everyone several times now, and that is that there is a difference between dueling and actual roaming.

Of course cele 1v1 builds are going to win duels dude, but they suck at actual roaming because they simply lack the kinds of stealth/mobility/disengage potential to deal with 1v2s or 1vX, which means they really just simply can't move through a map without great risk of being auto-slapped back into their spawn. It's true and you know it is, so stop comparing duels in the armistice bastion/eotm to actual roaming in the wvw game mode over objectives.

That's all I'm trying to get you guys to do, is acknowledge that of course cele duel builds are going to win 1v1s because that's what they are designed to do, but also acknowledge that they can't exactly go roam around alone because they simply get ran over too easily. This is why you don't see Cele-Condiserks pushing the north supply because they can't go deep like that without running into bad 1v2s or 1vXs that they can't disengage. This is where the balance is in the greater scheme of everything. If you don't want to engage powerful 1v1 cele-dueists, then don't do it. They only ever lurk around their spawn points and their home supply/tower. Just avoid them. They don't even contribute much to the ultimate score for their server, they really don't. Just avoid them. It's the zerg builds and the actual top roamers with high mobility, who move around fast and get stuff done. You know this is true. This is where the balance is. The cele-duelists are literally only good for one thing, and that is camping around their home positions and rope-a-doping overextended players into 1v1s.

Also, here is a question for you: Do you mainly only play Ele? If so, I am not sure you realize how strong your particular class is while wearing Cele. Other classes/builds don't automatically turn into a monster that can use any traits/weapons and make it work, just because they put on cele. That's very specifically an Ele thing.

Edited July 10 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Zyreva.1078]

21 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I've been playing GW2 for 12 years and I'm good at spotting things

And yet even after "taking 3 days to elaborately research the results" you haven't figured out basic stuff like which traitlines i was using.

Also you are trying to use external timers to determine what's going on, but with all the processing and compression that's happening from recording over editing to uploading the video, i'm sure frames inevitably get lost, potentially leading to an inaccurate display of time, even without intentional manipulation.

Luckily we got an ingame timer that ticks every second and is unaffected by intentional and unintentional alteration of the footage.

So with that in mind, let's look at my healing in that initial sequence again:

Spoiler

Ingame timer		Healing based on my POV	HP gain according to your POV
01:28		+295 RG	69% -> 70%
01:27		+295 RG	65% -> 66%
01:26		no healing (dodge gives me 3s of prot, so i should also be getting 3 procs of RG, but it doesn't happen, so it's indeed bugged, but not in my favour	no gain
01:25		+438 EP	64% -> 66%
01:24		no healing	no gain
01:23		+295 RG	65% -> 66%
01:22		+1832 IB; +295 RG	66% -> 75%
01:21		+295 RG, +278 RE	72% -> 75%
01:20		+573 (RG+RE)	74% -> 77%
01:19		+573 (RG+RE)	75% -> 77%
01:18		+573 (RG+RE)	75% -> 77%
01:17		+278 RE (again no RG despite still having prot)	74% -> 75%

At this point it becomes a bit tricky to provide exact numbers, because so much stuff is happening at the same time, but we know i had prot + regen the entire time, which means i should be getting +572/573 hp each second.

01:16		+302? should be +573 (RG+RE)	63% -> 64%
01:15		+573 (RG+RE)	64% -> 67%
01:14		+480? should be +572 (RG+RE)	52% -> 54%
01:13		+572 (RG+RE)	48% -> 51%
01:12		+572 (RG+RE)	43% -> 46%
01:11		+572 (RG+RE)	42% -> 45%
01:10		+548? should be +572 (RG+RE)	22% -> 25%
01:09		+302? should be +572 (RG+RE)	18% -> 20%
01:08		+572 (RG+RE) + 7329 WHaO	7% -> 10% and 5% ->37%
01:07		+478 (RG+RE)	37% -> 39%
01:06		+572 (RG+RE)	39% -> 42%
01:05		+430 (RG+RE)	you clip is cut at that point
01:04		+277 RE (no RG despite prot)

And so on ...

Total healing on my screen - somewhere between 19 and 20k, depending on which numbers exactly (expected vs apparent) i'm using.
Total healing on your screen: 86 % of total HP which would be somewhere between 19773 and 19798 (depending on which weapon bar i'm using for the calculation).
The passive healing from Regen and RG equals ~ 2,5% hp/s - since enemy hp doesn't display decimals, it shows either + 2 or + 3% on your side.

Adds up nicely, no? I can't find any irregularities, aside from RG being bugged and not healing for as much as it should (also pet healing from RG is neither displayed in combat log, nor with pop up numbers - but pet hp goes up accordingly, so it does get healed by prot, just tested that). So what did i miss?

Same deal with the part you are picking apart in your video, you know, those "impossible +940 hp/s"

Spoiler

00:21		+277 RE + 438 EP	41% -> 44%
00:20		+327 (RG+RE, partial tick?)	44% -> 45%
00:19		+572 (RG+RE)	45% -> 48%
00:19		+438 EP	48% -> 50%

Total healing over 3 seconds/ticks: 2052 or 8,9% - again matches what's shown on your side (+9%).

Note that your own regen + food is ticking 3x in those "two seconds" as well, so it's clearly not just my heals that do that.

 

21 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The second thing I notice is your DPS meter when I burst you in the opening footage. I noticed that it isn't tracing damage done to dogs

You sure about that? May i recommend checking again? At multiple occasions across the entire video - and even within that first part that you just disected (video 0:14/ingame 1:17 – pet gets hit by ToF for 90 dmg – immediately shows up under "self skills") it is very clear that arc numbers are including dmg dealt to pets.

From the very start of combat to the end of your burst (ingame 1:08, before WHaO is used) arc dps displays dmg taken of about 59k in total. ~26k of that should be dmg dealt to my pets, which leaves ~ 33k dmg dealt to my actual health. I'm outhealing ~10,5-11k of that based on the numbers posted above. So we are looking at ~22k "effective" dmg. And 23k HP minus 22k dmg taken = 1k hp. Pretty close to what i actually had at that point, what a surprise ...

Edited July 10 by Zyreva.1078

[Zyreva.1078]

Btw @schloumou.3982

On 6/22/2024 at 6:57 PM, schloumou.3982 said:

Most opinions and reactions in this topic are a fairly adequate representation of skill and game knowledge of the average WvW playerbase tbh. People who are interested in somehow balanced and skill based combat are playing other games. Allmost every change in the past years shows that the devs are very aware of their audience. So i wouldnt get my hopes up of cele getting fixed. Just enjoy, slap cele on the most broken kitten you can build, cosplay as raidboos for 5+ opponents and find out how many reports for cheating you can farm until it gets old.

Hilarious how applicable your first post turned out to be ...

[schloumou.3982]

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

a lot of stuff

Look if your perspective on balance in this game mode is suddenly back to the overall gear distribution i'm not arguing about that. Has nothing to do with what i was talking about but ok. It's pretty obvious that cele plays allmost no role in the most common/effective ways to play and even less to win matches. It just creates more balance problems for the impromptu 1vx/dueling environment which is admittedly almost dead anyway. People that complain about cele are just talking about another topic than you. Just because everyone vibin in the boonball or ganking single sad cele players with 10 dragon willies to build a treb on them doesn't mean its cool that you have only one option of gear in 1v1.

 

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Also, here is a question for you: Do you mainly only play Ele?

No i have more hours on engi for example, lots of them on core.

 

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I honestly don't think you're out actively roaming very often if at all.

Nice sh¡tposting.

Edited July 11 by schloumou.3982

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Also you are trying to use external timers to determine what's going on, but with all the processing and compression that's happening from recording over editing to uploading the video, i'm sure frames inevitably get lost, potentially leading to an inaccurate display of time, even without intentional manipulation

No.

From 10s to 20s even, you benefit double healing 4 times. That means that you are literally healing 40% more than normal. You are healing as much as you should in 14s, not 10s. This is visible in your own footage, through Rugged Growth and Regeneration alone.

If that were problems with animation frames and/or editing times, we would see an enormous amount of weird animation skipping and dirty footage, 40% faster animations to be exact, which clearly is not happening. The animations are smooth & crisp. My guy, you're healing 40% more than normal with double up-ticks 40% of the time in a crisp record of real server time. Your video shows it, stop acting like that didn't happen.

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Total healing on my screen ~snip the rest~

Yeah I'm already quite aware of how the numbers flow on your screen, as I did an incredibly elaborate break down of the up-ticks.

As just a small subsample, mentioning it again, from 10s to 20s, you quite seriously get 4 extra seconds worth of up-ticks from both RG and Regen. Stop acting like it didn't happen. I'm sure if I reviewed the rest of the footage, this same kind of goony stuff is happening through the whole thing, but at this point I'm losing interest in this debate because I know what I've seen, the math proves it, and after the initial evaluation of the first burst, that was all I needed to see.

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Same deal with the part you are picking apart in your video, you know, those "impossible +940 hp/s"

  Hide contents

00:21		+277 RE + 438 EP	41% -> 44%
00:20		+327 (RG+RE, partial tick?)	44% -> 45%
00:19		+572 (RG+RE)	45% -> 48%
00:19		+438 EP	48% -> 50%

Total healing over 3 seconds/ticks: 2052 or 8,9% - again matches what's shown on your side (+9%).

Note that your own regen + food is ticking 3x in those "two seconds" as well, so it's clearly not just my heals that do that.

Now you're just coming up with stuff as if there were some kind of a server or editing error going on, which is ridiculous and I don't appreciate it.

At no point in any of this footage in either mine or your own, do I get double up-ticks on passive health regeneration. Please post a time-stamp of when this happens so we can all review it. I'd love to see it. When I reviewed the footage, my up-ticks happen only ever once per second.

This is what I'm getting only once every second at full value when not poisoned:

• Absolute Resolve - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)  +122 per second
• Regeneration - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)  +159 per second
• Holographic Super Cake - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)  +85 per second

Any other healing that you're seeing is coming off of the only other heal sources I have, which is:

• Healing Spring - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) - which is a large heal around 5000
• Wings of Resolve - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) - another large heal near 4000
• Leap of Faith - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) - a heal around 1100

You are the one who is getting +4 seconds of upticks in 10 seconds, not me.

2 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

it is very clear that arc numbers are including dmg dealt to pets.

You're actually right, so let's take a look at this considering.

2 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

From the very start of combat to the end of your burst (ingame 1:08, before WHaO is used) arc dps displays dmg taken of about 59k in total. ~26k of that should be dmg dealt to my pets, which leaves ~ 33k dmg dealt to my actual health. I'm outhealing ~10,5-11k of that based on the numbers posted above. So we are looking at ~22k "effective" dmg. And 23k HP minus 22k dmg taken = 1k hp. Pretty close to what i actually had at that point, what a surprise

The damage numbers add up in the event that the pets are absorbing damage.

What still does not add up, is that you really are getting double up-ticks in your health 40% of the time, which is 40% more heal than normal.

The other thing that doesn't add up, is walking across a Test Of Faith with no dodge/evade/invuln and not taking damage from it.

The fact of the matter is, if you weren't getting that+40% up-ticks from both regen and rg "however wherever this mysterious great boost in sustain is coming from", and if you would have taken damage from the TOF like the game engine is supposed to do, you would have been oneshot in that footage and you know it.

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I have no horse in this race that reminds me of another race where there was also a duel and transfers involved... anyway, some quick notepad math:

Taking these two figures from above and assuming RE = Regen, EP = Evasive Purity, and RG = Rugged Growth:

+277 RE + 438 EP

+572 (RG+RE)

Focusing on the +572 number and disregarding Evasive Purity as it is irrelevant (only used that figure to get the Regen number), we have:

+572 (RG+RE)

Regen +277 (from above)

Rugged Growth = +295 (remainder) =
+295 = +196 + Healing Power * 0.122
+99 = Healing Power * 0.122
+811 = Healing Power

If that math is right, then all we need to do is get to +811 Healing Power for the rest of it to make sense.  I think in this massive trainwreck I read Exotics somewhere; so, using the wiki and doing a 2-minute verification against my legendary (ascended stat) gear in game, I come up with:

Celestial Exotic Armor = +28 Healing Power * 6 = +168 Healing Power
Celestial Exotic Weapons = +112 Healing Power
Celestial Trinkets = +56 Amulet, +84 Rings, +70 Accessories = +210 Healing Power
Celestial Back = +14 Healing Power
Total: +504 Healing Power

Since Evasive Purity means Nature Magic, going to guess that also means Wellspring...

Wellspring = 7% of Power to Healing Power
Total Power: 1000 + 504 =1504 * 0.07 = +105 Healing Power

Total Healing Power (ghetto estimate) = 504 + 105 = +609

So, at +609 Healing Power without factoring in might (which would increase Wellspring amount), runes, sigils, or relic...or any other traitline besides Nature Magic.  Without going down a "1x1=2" rabbit hole, it seems well within the possibility you could eek out at least +202 healing power somewhere.  

Numbers seem to add up unless I'm way off (and I could be as really not wanting to put too much brainpower into this) with the doubling up being likely display bug or who knows what with the glorious 12+ years of codebase.  

[urd.8306]

The biggest issue with "No Cele in WvW is" that Anet would need to rework all of the ascended gear chests, because Cele is the only really viable choice in those for wvw. For players not having access to legendary armor or weapons this would be cruel because your choices would be Dire or Berserker/Valkyrie. And we all know how long it takes for Anet to change such simple things.

I really wouldn't want players running around in subpar gear in WvW groups so Cele is the best choice of a lot of bad choices. (and usable in pve too)

[Mystiz.8795]

11 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I honestly don't think you're out actively roaming very often if at all. If you were, you'd know that this is what's happening in modern roaming:

1. Nearly complete lack of warrior presence.
2. A LOT of Willbenders going on, and they wear serk/marauder/dragon/valk.
3. Cele Renegades - This is one of the builds that wears cele, but it's slow and gets ran over 2v1 very easily. It's a duel build, not a real roamer.
4. Nearly complete lack of Engi in roaming, but full dps power stat Holos are being spammed in zergs as meta right now.
5. All kinds of different stats being used on various Ranger variants for roaming. Ranger is still a top roaming class.
6. DP and SD Daredevils and Deadeyes, yup they all wear power burst stats.
7. Cele Harbingers - Another duel build that gets ran over in 2v1 too easily to be considered a real roamer. It does wear cele though.
8. Cele Eles all types - Literally good at every job & role while wearing cele. It isn't just a duel build, these are actually top roamers.
9. Mirages wearing all different stat types, from power burst to hybrid burst to condi tanks to cele builds.

5 out of 9 things here can actually wear cele and be good with it. 2 out of those 5 are hard locked into being cele duelists that suck at surviving 2v1 situations and due to this, they can never truly be good at roaming. Only 3 out of these 9 things can be real roamers while running cele, this is Ranger, Ele, Mirage. And even 2 out of 3 of these top roamers, see mixed stat variants all over the place and maybe 50% of them you encounter are actually running cele. Ele is the only true roamer that cele benefits so much, that there is no reason to use any other stat line in any situation.

I think some of you guys are so hard-stuck on this cele thing, that you don't realize most of the things that are killing you in yolo roaming, are actually wearing power stats with boosted boon durations and a bit of extra vitality. I think a lot of you guys just assume "oh it's wearing cele" when it isn't.

No. I made a statement that would be true in 95% of any other situation in real roaming that wasn't entirely suspicious, that I can oneshot cele builds with my Soulbeast, and that is true. The sh!tposting began after the first duel, when him and his buddies tried to use the result not as a way to further discussion, but to repeatedly call me out and insult me, and try to make me look bad.

There you go again, ignoring all the data presented to you. Go reread through it again. The fact is that what was presented shows that the Serk DH certainly would have oneshot his cele build if there weren't outstanding mathematical anomalies occurring that can't be explained, from the random double heals, to the nearly 50% DPS loss during the burst when even his own DPS meter was saying I was dealing twice the damage that he took, to this guy walking over DH traps that don't hit him when it would have put him down.

You can go on and on about this, but w/e happened there "careful what i say" it wasn't right and you know it. So knock it off and move past this.

I see what you're saying, but everything you mention here is still what I've been trying to point out to everyone several times now, and that is that there is a difference between dueling and actual roaming.

Of course cele 1v1 builds are going to win duels dude, but they suck at actual roaming because they simply lack the kinds of stealth/mobility/disengage potential to deal with 1v2s or 1vX, which means they really just simply can't move through a map without great risk of being auto-slapped back into their spawn. It's true and you know it is, so stop comparing duels in the armistice bastion/eotm to actual roaming in the wvw game mode over objectives.

That's all I'm trying to get you guys to do, is acknowledge that of course cele duel builds are going to win 1v1s because that's what they are designed to do, but also acknowledge that they can't exactly go roam around alone because they simply get ran over too easily. This is why you don't see Cele-Condiserks pushing the north supply because they can't go deep like that without running into bad 1v2s or 1vXs that they can't disengage. This is where the balance is in the greater scheme of everything. If you don't want to engage powerful 1v1 cele-dueists, then don't do it. They only ever lurk around their spawn points and their home supply/tower. Just avoid them. They don't even contribute much to the ultimate score for their server, they really don't. Just avoid them. It's the zerg builds and the actual top roamers with high mobility, who move around fast and get stuff done. You know this is true. This is where the balance is. The cele-duelists are literally only good for one thing, and that is camping around their home positions and rope-a-doping overextended players into 1v1s.

Also, here is a question for you: Do you mainly only play Ele? If so, I am not sure you realize how strong your particular class is while wearing Cele. Other classes/builds don't automatically turn into a monster that can use any traits/weapons and make it work, just because they put on cele. That's very specifically an Ele thing.

Man I feel like I have so much to comment. Just going to pen down some quick thoughts again:

- Before being able to determine whether power or cele builds are more effective at roaming, I guess we first have to define roaming. Personally, I simply go around capping camps/sentries, and I fight every single person I see. If I see 2 or 3 enemies, I evaluate whether I can beat them before engaging. If they are mostly high ranked and/or consists of strong meta class like harbi, thief, willbender etc, I'll not engage. If they are low ranked and consist of weak classes like DH, soulbeast, mechanist etc, I'll engage. I actually win such 1v2s and 1v3s pretty often. Well, what if I'm jumped on and don't have a choice of engagement? I'll try to stealth and escape using smokescale and CA + sword mobility skills. I also do successfully escape pretty often, especially if there is water nearby. If it is a heavily outnumbered situation or there are good chasers like thieves and willbenders, I'll die. But I rather fail to escape and die in such rare fights than build for mobility/disengagement and lose in way more matchups. So is the definition of roaming = being able to win almost all matchups and many outnumbered ones, or going around capping camps while avoiding fights. If it is the latter, then sure there are builds that are more mobile and have better disengagement potential than cele ones. Just play a high stealth access thief, and by that definition you have found the best roamer (only caps objectives, never fights).

- So saying that cele builds are only good for dueling and not 1vx is certainly not true. Cele builds win outnumbered rather often too. I don't know why you are saying that cele guys only camp around home positions and try to rope people into 1v1s. I don't do that, I know many cele players who don't do that. Look at Zyvera's druid outnumbered roaming video in his channel, does that look like he is only trying to rope 1v1s? 

- Regarding the duels... There is so much debate on the anomalies. I'm no expert with these technicalities, but if there is a suspicion over some bug regarding the healing numbers, perhaps report it to Anet and let them investigate? I'm genuinely curious for an actual explanation. I believe it is clear that Zyvera isn't hacking, in which case what is being implied is that all rangers' healing numbers have been wrong all these months and perhaps years, without anyone noticing it. In that case, you have probably discovered a major bug, in which case Anet should fix it. Putting aside that one particular fight with unusual healing numbers and that one particular instance where TOF didn't deal damage, it is still very clear that power DH and WB cannot beat cele ranger. Even if you did manage to one shot him in the first fight, you lost all the other fights. And again, that is with him on exotic gear, no food/util, and core ranger. This is consistent with my own experience. With cele druid, I've never lost against DH, power soulbeast, and power WB before, the 3 specs you chose for the duels. And it isn't even close, DH and power soulbeast especially are very easy for cele druid, and I'm not even skilled. The build just carries. But maybe this is because I've also been riding on some op ranger healing bug all these years.

- I totally agree if the point made is that certain power specs are better than other cele ones at roaming. For instance, power thief and WB are better than cele harb and rev, because the former has strong dueling + disengage ability, while the latter only has dueling ability. But if the point made is that power specs can beat or one shot cele builds, that certainly isn't true if both players are on equal skill level. Most power builds cannot beat cele builds. The most notable exception is thief, which played at the highest level would probably destroy everything. 

- At the end of the day, I know by experience how strong cele is, and how I get farmed everytime I try power, at least on ranger. I love to jump into 2 or 3 power classes and then win that outnumbered fight via initial burst or attrition. However if you do that as a power class, the only chance you have is to immediately burst down 1 or 2 noob/afk players, as there is no chance you'll ever win an attrition fight. If people like you are convinced that power is better for roaming, then all the more better for me, because I can continue to farm them. 

[Mystiz.8795]

On 7/10/2024 at 1:44 AM, Zyreva.1078 said:

Bit off topic and it's also difficult to give advice without knowing the exact builds and struggles, so i'm keeping this short:

Against cele harb i'm usually doing fine (in a 1vs1), but i do think harb should have the advantage, because it used to be a pretty even match and since then harb has been buffed and druid nerfed. I tend to start those fights slow and just poke them from range, hoping to bait out cds without investing too much from my side - and most burn through their stuff quickly. When they use their elite, try to stealth or kite/LOS - do not try to fight into it. Once their elite and hopefully also some stunbreaks are on cd, locking them down with entangle and chain cc usually enables the kill.

DE is tricky and i did lose a 1vs1 against one recently. I think if it's open field DE should win eventually if played perfectly. However most don't and are very much beatable. Key is to pressure them as much as possible, like casting CA 2+3 on them instead of yourself, because forcing them to use initiative defensively will increase your chance to survive more than trying to outheal while they are freecasting on you. And if you manage to force Shadow Step and then catch them with immob while low on initiative, they can die very quickly. Using terrain to your advantage can also help (LOS/no port spots).

Vs axe thief i can't give any specific advice, because i still haven't fought many, and those few i did fight were not that scary and either died fairly quickly or ended up stalemating by spamming stealth. But i guess what applies to DE and pretty much any thief applies here too - playing agressive and forcing them to play defensive is key to survival (aside from avoiding axe 3 burst) - and if they live or die just depends on whether they mess up or not.

Regarding "If i can't beat it, it has to be hacking":

I didn't intend to upload those fights, but to spare everyone the guesswork and wild assumptions, i can provide my POV, which should clear everything up.

 

Thanks for this, good points and well noted! 

[cryorion.9532]

16 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

If cele is as busted as you guys claim, then core Ele on celestial should be destroying everyone and everything on it's path, yet it doesn't happen. Why is that? Maybe... because of busted e-speces~ I wonder what it is~🤭

It's actually both. Celestial offers too many stats overall. Too much toughness, vitality, healing power etc. On top of that, add e-specs that can have strong defensive utility and spam conditions at the same time and you get abomination builds that should never exist. Celestial builds (and also support builds) are way too tanky and very forgiving on mistakes which kind of defeats the idea of competetive mode being competetive. It's pretty sad to see people in celestial builds tanking bursts without even bothering to look around, predict attacks and/or dodge and still be able to survive/get away... such skill, much wow. There is literally no risk involved when using celestial builds compared to other stats (with few exceptions) and that is problem. Same with support builds. Reducing tankiness of these builds appropriately is the solution.

[CafPow.1542]

3 hours ago, Mystiz.8795 said:

Before being able to determine whether power or cele builds are more effective at roaming

Which is a little bit silly anyways cause it depends on class.

ele? Sure, go cele it’s super awesome.

reaper? Srsly go marauder lol.

 

but the whole thread derailed anyways which is not an issue cause the basic topic (muh cele bad) got discussed anyways and it’s annoying to dispute by now.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Dang this thread is still going...

Guess what I said when I first commented didn't hit enough:

This duel business does not say anything meaningful about celestial stats. I don't share your personal experiences, and neither does anybody else for that matter. If you want actual progress of this discussion made, it would be realizing how pointless this discussion right now actually is until people start formally defining things and not defining them with "personal experiences."

Edited July 11 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Zyreva.1078]

12 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

From 10s to 20s even, you benefit double healing 4 times. That means that you are literally healing 40% more than normal. You are healing as much as you should in 14s, not 10s.

Tell me the ingame timer of those double heals and my hp (before-after) at those moments.

Also note that for your claim to be true (+40% extra healing), those extra heals have to happen between two regular ticks, which means there need to be 2 ticks within 0,5 s or less. And the start and end of a "yt second" are a lot more than 0,5 s apart, just saying.

10 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

If that math is right, then all we need to do is get to +811 Healing Power for the rest of it to make sense.  I think in this massive trainwreck I read Exotics somewhere; so, using the wiki and doing a 2-minute verification against my legendary (ascended stat) gear in game, I come up with:

In case you or anyone else is wondering - this is the exact build i have been using in every single fight against Trevor.

And I said "mostly exotic", because i thought all weapons and armor were exotic, but turns out the axe and chestpiece are ascended too - so i guess "half exotic" would have been more accurate?

10 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

without factoring in might (which would increase Wellspring amount)

Stat conversion traits do not factor in any buffs.

Edited July 11 by Zyreva.1078

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 hours ago, Mystiz.8795 said:

Before being able to determine whether power or cele builds are more effective at roaming, I guess we first have to define roaming.

Exactly. It is very different than dueling. This is why I said much earlier that metabattle.com should make a clear distinction between duel builds and proper roam builds. Right now, the only proper roam builds that can do what you mentioned efficiently, are Willbender, Druid, Thieves, Eles, Mirage. And that has everything to do with the virtue of the class designs for being very mobile, having a lot of stealth disengage, or in Ele's case, just having a lot of everything else to be able to peel and get to a door or something before being killed. And this is regardless of the stat lines ran.

4 hours ago, Mystiz.8795 said:

So saying that cele builds are only good for dueling and not 1vx is certainly not true. Cele builds win outnumbered rather often too. I don't know why you are saying that cele guys only camp around home positions and try to rope people into 1v1s.

Honestly, out of the archetypes that I mentioned, Willbender does power stats, Druid can run power or cele or w/e, Thieves are best on power, Eles def on cele, and Mirage can run w/e it wants. These are the top roaming classes, and it has everything to do with their mobility/disengage prowess. Make of it what you want.

Then we have things that are really strong in dueling, that could not kite 1vX and win or at least survive, in the same way Willbender, Druid, Thief, Ele, Mirage can. These are things like Condiserks, Renegades, Harbingers, and all of that wears cele because cele is clearly the stronger option for duel builds. Of course a good player who would be considered let's say plat+ in pvp, could win a 1v2 or maybe a 1v3 against a bunch of guys who would be considered gold 1 or lower in pvp, regardless of the classes they are on. But when we are talking players of actual equal skill values meeting in these 1v2s or 1v3s, a Cele Harbinger who is let's say gold 3, is not going to win vs. say a Spellbreaker, a Holo who are also gold 3. He won't be able to outrun them either.

In a true 1vX type situation, let's say a Cele-Renegade or a Cele-Condiserk walks into the wrong position and didn't notice a 30 man zerg that was stacked tightly around a corner somewhere, there is no way they can outrun & survive if even a 1/4th of that squad chooses to chase. But see a Willbender, Druid, Thief, Ele or Mes, actually has enough mobility skills & ports, stealth detargets, and random effects that deny projectiles, to actually be able to escape and survive getting too close to a 30 man squad. This is why they are the top roaming classes. These classes are so well designed for that, they can actually purposely go out of their way to follow around a 30 man squad and harass them continuously without being caught & dying. THIS is what I'm talking about, the difference between the real roaming classes, and dueling classes that are roaming.

It just so happens that the slower powerful dueling archetypes do indeed all function best with cele, for obvious reasons of being able to support their own boon generation, heals, condi durations for things like immobs, ect ect, having hybrid power/condi damage to ensure getting past opponent defenses. But when it comes to serious try-hard roaming on those specified classes, we have sort of two different archetypes for true top roamers ok:

1. The highly mobile roaming cele duelist - Druid can achieve this, Eles can achieve this, Mirage can achieve this. These are GREAT in 1v1s and they have the necessary components to go out and get serious roaming done. They can survive 1vXs pretty easily with a bit of map awareness, and wait for moments to catch players in 1v1s and 1v2s that they know they can win. But this archetype has a lot less burst damage than their power counterparts. I often find while running my Cele-Druid, I'll get into these 1v3s or 1v4s that I can survive, but I can't actually stay long enough before needing to kite, to deal enough damage to a single target to down it, to be able to actually start getting kills so I can win the 1v4. In these situations, I will often disengage and OOC and then swap to something like this ->
2. The highly mobile roaming power burst - Willbender can achieve this, Druid and Soulbeast can achieve this, all types of Thief achieve this, and Shatter Mirage def achieves this. When the invulnerable Cele-Druid doesn't have the damage to tag downs in that 1v4, I'll OOC can quick swap to the Sic Em OWP. And then I'll turn around and target something like a Harbinger or a Thief who isn't expecting it, and start generating downstates. If you can take apart their unit like this, due to high sudden burst and an element of surprise, then when there is only a couple of them left, they are easy to kite & finish. And then see, I've won a 1v3 or a 1v4 with a build archetype that is in no way as powerful in a 1v1 as the Cele-Druid. But see this is what I mean about different things being used for different purposes. This archetype is very different because it isn't trying to achieve staying power in the 1v2 or 1vX, it is trying to achieve literally "blitzkrieg" power, where it zips in and out and attempts to generate downstates very quickly and then get away and reset. This is also arguably better than the cele-roamer, when it finds opportune moments to join in on say a 5v5 or even like a 10v10, because its damage output is heavy enough that it can make serious impact while assisting small groups.

But see even this ^ is considering that you're some kind of plat+ player against a bunch of gold or lower. When we are talking gold vs gold or silver vs silver, all these interactions function entirely differently due to l2p issues and people not utilizing their class kits optimally. And in the event of let's say they did another wvw tournament like in years 1 and 2, then we get the best of the best try hard players showing up, and now we're roaming in an environment where only plat+ players are out there, where gold or lower wouldn't dare to even walk out into that farm land to attempt to roam alone. In this event, the dynamic entirely changes in extreme ways. Now you could be a plat+ player on what normally feels like an invulnerable Cele-Druid, but when every other roamer out there is also plat+, we are no longer realistically looking at being able to 1vX or even win 1v2s, but the goal is now to avoid 1vX entirely and to just be able to survive 1v2s and get to door something before you get killed. Because IE: if a plat+ Cele-Druid starts getting chased by let's say a SD Daredevil and a Willbender who are also plat+, who are both wearing pure power burst stats and have many ports, you aint outrunning that, and you aren't going to actually win that either. It's only a matter of time before these players dwindle you down with extreme damage output and the ability to stick to you like glue due to so many ports. If anything in this situation at this level of play, Running the Cele Build is actually putting yourself into an impossible to win situation for that 1v2. Although the sustain is great and the damage is generally good, it simply does not have the damage it needs to generate a downstate quickly enough to turn that situation into a 1v1, and it is only a matter of time before their DPS will outride your sustain and you will lose. In that situation, and any experienced player knows exactly what I'm talking about, and this is exactly why in pvp right now, the meta is pure burst damage. Because to win a 1v2 like that when we are talking plat+ vs. plat+/plat+, the only option for a win, is to also be running full damage, and burst one of those players down very very quickly so you can turn the situation into a 1v1. This is the truth.

After really tossing analysis at this, I feel like this "cele vs. power" thing has been being discussed without a very very important factor being included, and that is: "what tier of players vs. players are we talking about here?" Because some players like @Zyreva.1078 or myself playing at plat+ levels roaming around on a Cele-Druid and engaging golds or lower and winning 1vXs, makes cele look godly. But a lot of what's going on there is very seriously mechanical l2p issues and people running poorly situated builds, who probably are trying to roam on what is intended to be zerg builds. Plat+ players are gonna stomp all over golds & lower, no matter what stats they run, even in 1v3s and 1v4s.

The reality of that try-hard plat+ vs. plat+ though, is much different. Just from the standpoint of a Cele-Druid which is one of the absolute roamers btw, when it comes to plat+ 1v1s, there are a lot of things that can deal with or actually kill the Cele-Druid if the Druid doesn't kite enough/stays too long/missteps at all. These things are:

1. Power Spellbreakers - Yes, due to deep boon removal tagging you at the right time to remove any stab, and chains of CCs, these can kill you if you mess up at all or don't kite enough. If the Cele-Druid is good, this plat+ vs. plat+ matchup generally results in a stalemate where both players realize they aren't going to kill each other. But the Spellbreaker can kill you and it happens suddenly if you mess up at all as the Druid.
2. Cele-Renegade - Although it is slow and Druid can easily leave this 1v1 with twice the movement as the Renegade has, these are dangerous in isolated 1v1s. Again, if the Druid messes up at all, the Cele-Renegade will very quickly gain the upper hand, forcing the Druid to have to utilize its mobility to begin kiting away for reset. The Druid can win, but this is a fairly balanced match up, where I'd def say that if it weren't for the Druid's superior mobility, the Renegade would have advantage.
3. Power Willbenders - These are seriously dangerous lately. I generally don't lose to them as Cele-Druid, but I've come across some players who really really lay down extreme pressure as Willbenders. You can kill the ones who overextend their CDs and get stuck near you too long. But the good ones, eventually realize that the Druid has just a sliiiight advantage, and they'll disengage and leave. These can definitely kill the Druid if the Druid messes up at all, and it happens fast.
4. Power Thieves Of All Types - The build I run on Druid is Axe/Axe/Staff with Turtle, so I have 3x rotating anti-projectile effects. Due to this, I typically never die against thieves. But the good ones can infinitely reset and keep coming back over and over and over, and eventually what happens is that they harass you for so long, that eventually someone else shows up to + him and you find yourself in a 1v2. This is the true strength behind the Thief class and it is the worst + to deal with when they are good. If the Thief is good, you need to immediately kite away from the slower person and try to keep it a 1v1 against just the Thief.
5. VS. other Rangers - You either hard-counter Power Rangers as a Cele-Druid, or you come across another Tank Ranger and it's a complete stalemate unless you can greatly outplay the other Ranger. I'm talking like a plat+ Cele Ranger might be able to tag an actual kill against a gold 2 or lower Cele Ranger. If you can't greatly outplay the other Ranger, it results in a silly situation where neither ever drops bellow 90% or 80% health.
6. Cele Eles - These actually sort of counter Cele-Druid. Again, we're talking about plat+ vs. plat+. Everything about Ele is designed to just sort of bully around Ranger builds. This match up will almost always result in a complete stalemate where neither can kill each other, but the Ele will be the aggressor, and the Druid will have to kite all over the place to survive.
7. Mirages - Other Mesmer specializations don't cut it. The Mirage makes the cut to due to Jaunt. As the Cele-Druid, I find Cele-Mirage to not have threatening damage, and typically I eventually win if I push them and they don't disengage quickly enough. The problem comes in when they start mixing stats. I'm not exactly sure what's going on here, but I come across a lot of really weird Mirage variants that are not listed on any site. Like weird variants running Greatsword with Infinite Horizon, who are running maybe Grieving pieces? I'm not sure, but they have a great deal of pressure coming from both the power side and the condi side of their bursts. They are squishier, but the consistent high pressure coming off this steady stream of IH procs and power shatters is actually dangerous. I'd say the Cele-Druid still has the upper-hand, but the Druid can die quickly if it missteps at all.
8. Cele Harbinger - I actually don't have a problem against Harbingers due to the axe/axe/staff/turtle triple anti-projectile build I've got going on. But I am aware that other people who are not running triple anti-projectile, do have problems against Cele-Harb in 1v1, so we'll put it in this list.

The point being, is that out of all the things that can threaten the Cele-Druid in 1v1s when we are talking plat+ vs. plat+, 4 of them are power, and 4 of them are cele.

But see, at lower tiers, let's say gold 1s vs. gold 1s, this would be entirely different when players were not optimizing the use of their class kits correctly. A good example of what I mean would be let's say a gold 1 DP Daredevil wearing cele vs. a gold 1 DP Daredevil wearing serk. Within the tiers of gold 1 players, the cele DP will probably win. Because in this tier, players make a lot of mistakes and get hit a lot more often than they should, and they're bad at launching DPS combos. The cele DP will tank a lot harder in the world of these l2p issues, and as they trade blows with autos "which they shouldn't be doing" but they are because it's gold 1 tier, the cele is going to come out on top. But then if we are talking Cele-DP vs. Serk-DP at plat+ vs. plat+ levels, the Serk DP is going to **** all over the Cele-DP for several reasons as to why the DP Daredevil archetype is just not optimized with cele stats, and is definitely optimized when wielding full power stats, when the archetype is being played optimally, correctly.

This brings me to my ultimate point which I feel is the heart of this debate that we weren't noticing, going back to what @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 was referencing. Under what premise of skill demographic are we trying to balance for? It needs to be defined. Are we discussing this from the standpoint of plat+ vs. plat+ players? Or are we discussing this from the standpoint of gold 1s vs. gold 1s, which is admittingly where the very large majority of the player base resides. This is extremely important to define for any further constructive debate, because the dynamic of stats/builds playing against each other in the world of gold 1s is much much different than how the dynamic plays out amongst plat+ vs. plat+.

This is not easy to answer, so I'll have to think about it a bit and get back to it later.

But here is something that needs to be posted to conclude the debacle of what happened with that core ranger vs. dh. Come to find out you were definitely right. There is actually a major bug going on with Ranger. After reading your post, I went in-game and tested it myself and recorded the Ranger heal up-tick bug, which is working very strangely might I add. I also recorded a demo of that DH's heal up-ticks. I found that for some very strange reason, every time a Ranger reapplies protection to itself, whether it is from dodge roll companion's defense, or protect me, or any source of prot, it for some reason grants a double up-tick at full value. It doesn't just stack duration of protection to allow Rugged Growth to continue granting up-ticks per second, no. It just instantly triggers an extra up-tick from Rugged Growth. The stranger thing here, is that it also makes it trigger an extra Regeneration up-tick. Why the hell is this happening? Absolutely no idea. I actually wish I woul have put on a food regen buff for the video to see if this bug is effecting ALL sources of passive regen on a Ranger. But it is definitely for some reason effecting both Rugged Growth and strangely also Regeneration. And it happens each time a prot is reapplied. This is actaully insanely busted and Arenanet needs to fix this. Then you can see when I record the DH's passive regens, it only ever up-ticks its F2 Absolute Resolve & Regeneration & food buff, once per second. I didn't take the time to test other classes and I wanted to keep this video upload very short and very small. But the footage provided shows that the Ranger is definitely majorly busted and the w/e is going on there, is not happening on a Guardian's passive regens. I'm not going to take the time to lay out a big number skew this time because it is unnecessary. You can plainly see in the video that my Ranger is getting several double up-ticks each time I reapply protection. And it's similar to his build, where the prot reapplies so often that I'm getting about 40% more passive healing than I should be. Again, like 14s of upticks in 10s, ect ect.

 

 

So can we move past this Cele Ranger vs. Serk DH thing and stop sh!tposting about it?

He wasn't using a hack. It's definitely a major bug in play. Ranger "which is my main class btw" is busted in the sustain department due to this and Arenanet really should fix it.

In conclusion to this:

1. When we did his Cele Ranger vs. my Berserker Druid and Cele Druid, I was the aggressor in both rounds and was pushing him all over the place. He had to kite from my DPS to survive. He can go ahead and upload that footage if he wants to.
2. Even considering what we've figured out here, I still almost oneshot him on the DH. And he certainly should have been put down from the TOF, if he hadn't somehow crossed it while taking no damage. I think it's safe to say that the Power DH did fine against Celestial, even considering these strange anomalies surrounding the Core Ranger.
3. I'm not even a Guardian main. I rarely even play the class, haven't seriously played it since old HoT meta. When I logged in to duel him, I didn't even warm up. I just logged in and went to him. He is on his main class playing at what I'd consider plat+ levels, and go to him on a class that I'm playing at probably around a gold 3 level. You have to take this into consideration.
4. In the original duel of Power Soulbeast vs Cele Ranger, that really is a hard-counter situation that I willingly walked into. Any Ranger main would tell you: "Condi Ranger tanks just win against Power Ranger variants". It's just true, so lay off it. The only way I could win that and tag an actual kill would be if he had been playing g2 or maybe g3 levels, and in that case I would have had room to find moments to out-play, but this was not the case, so lay off it.

Anyway, let's veer this back towards discussion on cele vs. power.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Tell me the ingame timer of those double heals and my hp (before-after) at those moments.

Also note that for your claim to be true (+40% extra healing), those extra heals have to happen between two regular ticks, which means there need to be 2 ticks within 0,5 s or less. And the start and end of a "yt second" are a lot more than 0,5 s apart, just saying.

Read my previous post. It's definitely happening my guy.

Edited July 11 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Stat conversion traits do not factor in any buffs.

Jumped in game to test this, and you're right--I didn't know that.  Probably a good thing as buffs are already out of control, can only imagine what 25 might would do to that trait 😂.

The numbers still seem to check out though.  

Trev, you really need to get Arc to test some of these theories out IMO.  As tbh, right now 900 HP/s isn't out of the realm with the math above and including Evasive Purity...your 'major ranger bug' vid isn't even showing the combat log lol.  

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Stop defending this.

Read my previous post. You can't argue this. It's definitely happening my guy.

I'm not going to read that entire wall of text.

I did check out that "bug" video tho - and you really can't come up with anything less conclusive, can't you? With so many numbers overlapping and no combat log it's impossible to tell what exactly is going on. If you want to make a proper bug report, try again with less unrelated stuff on screen (you only need regen and prot to prove your theory) and combat log visible. Anyway, i tried to reproduce this multiple times on my druid, doing the same stuff that you were doing, and i wasn't able to recreate any double ticks of RG and/or regen. Edit: Messed up link, this is the correct one. Nor are any ominous double heal ticks happening in the video vs your dh.

Edit: As i told you when we were fighting, I didn't record the fights vs your druid, so if you want to show how you are "pushing me all over the place", you have to upload that yourself. I'm sure people want to see that.

Edit2: Yes, you could have killed me in that first fight - but only because i got caught off guard by preplaced traps - which i didn't know about - and double Maw (which i didn't realize during the fight). That's a rather unlikely situation during regular roaming or dueling (mounts make it easy to check for and safely clear preplaced traps) and outside of that very specific case, i'm not in danger of dieing. I'm also not playing particulary well, random dodging a lot and eating pretty much every F1 and True Shot. If this was truly a "hardcounter", you being less experienced on guard won't matter much, because the very nature of a hardcounter means that the build is the deciding factor and player skill becomes a lot less relevant.

Fun fact - i did get "oneshot" by a DH on my cele druid some months ago. Just saw that low rank player, expected an easy kill and engaged without having any defensive cds up - turned out he was on some sort of full dps PvE build and when i got trapped i just died. But that was just me playing like a cocky idiot and for once getting rightfully punished for that. If i had fought that player again, i'm sure i'd win at least 98/100 times. Usually DH is no threat, regardless of how good or bad the player is.

Edited July 11 by Zyreva.1078

[aymnad.9023]

2 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Anyway, i tried to reproduce this multiple times on my druid, doing the same stuff that you were doing, and i wasn't able to recreate any double ticks of RG and/or regen.

I was curious to see if it really was a bug that could affect another game mode. I tried in PvE and could not replicate either. The closest option I found was evasive purity and relic of nayos as I noticed the dispel and the values are somewhat close to what happens.

Edited July 11 by aymnad.9023

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Trev, you really need to get Arc to test some of these theories out IMO.  As tbh, right now 900 HP/s isn't out of the realm with the math above and including Evasive Purity...your 'major ranger bug' vid isn't even showing the combat log lol.  

I assumed everyone would use the method we were already using, which is looking at the timestamps and gauging the very visual tells when you can clearly see it is doing double up-ticks.

The combat log doesn't show time stamps. You'd have to gauge the time stamp anyway, even with the combat log.

IT'S NOT EVASIVE PURITY. We already went over this in previous footage and now we'll go over again with this new footage. You can clearly see the difference of the EP trigger, vs the double uptick triggers of RG and R.

If you can't see it, you're choosing not to.

3 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

I did check out that "bug" video tho - and you really can't come up with anything less conclusive, can't you? With so many numbers overlapping and no combat log it's impossible to tell what exactly is going on. If you want to make a proper bug report, try again with less unrelated stuff on screen (you only need regen and prot to prove your theory) and combat log visible. Anyway, i tried to reproduce this multiple times on my druid, doing the same stuff that you were doing, and i wasn't able to recreate any double ticks of RG and/or regen. Edit: Messed up link, this is the correct one. Nor are any ominous double heal ticks happening in the video vs your dh.

What are you doing?

I don't know why you're trying to defend this and throw disinformation. I know you can see it, and at this point I'm wondering why you're going out of your way to try so hard to convince others who haven't dug into the numbers and timestamps, that it isn't happening. You even pulled a jank tactic at one point and said "The DH is also double upticking!" which is just not true at all or arguable in any way. You can see in this footage, the upticks on the DH only ever happen once per second. And in fact, they are securely accurate, that when I reviewed the time stamps, it was ultra pinpoint precise like: "uptick at 20.20, 21.20, 22.20, 23.20" so on and so forth.

Do I really need to throw an elaborate break down of the number ticks at you? OK here you go buddy. Keep in mind some of the numbers look weird due to poison or sometimes when my health is too full to benefit all the healing, but you can still see plain as day when the double upticks are happening:

• 0s - 1633 IB, 144 and a 60 and 59 behind the 60 "I'm poisoned when it happens"
• 1s - dodge cleanses poison heals 334, another 144 pops up
• 1s - no poison, full heals RG and R and 248/247 (it double upticks in the same second right here)
• 2s - 370, 360
• 3s - 215, dodge cleanse crip heal 499
• 3s - 270, 300 (double upticks)
• 4s - 369, 370
• 5s - 370, 369
• 6s - WHAO 7937 and then a 215
• 6s - 368, 370 (It double upticks again, because WHAO copied prot)
• 7s - 370, 369
• 8s - 370, 369
• 9s - 369, 49 (health gets too full and it's cutting off numbers but notice there are no double upticks when no prot is being applied)
• 10s - 369, 28
• 11s - 165 (health is too full and it's only clocking one source of regen)
• 12s - 236
• 13s - dodge roll EP 499, and a 236
• 13s - heal is too full but it does show a double uptick of 100 in the same second, it would do upticks of both if the first didn't heal me full
• 14s - (no heal because I'm maxed out on health)
• 15s - 164
• 16s - 369, and a 9
• 17s - 174
• 18s - 364
• 19s - 247
• 20s - 255

This is very clearly a thing that is happening, and it happens every time the Ranger reapplies protection to itself.

I don't know what you're reading wrong in your tests, but you can clearly see with what I've provided, that this is happening.

You see the parts in the video when there are 4 or 5 small separate green numbers on the screen at the same time? Yeah dude that's double upticks happening in the same second. In the very first second of this footage, you see it. go watch seconds 0 and 1. And STOP acting like it isn't happening. That wouldn't be happening on something that only has two sources of passive regen, that trigger once per second, if it wasn't double upticking. In fact, it you look closely, and not counting IB, there are actually 7 different green integers triggering on my Ranger from 0s to 1s. Please explain to me how that isn't double upticks when it only has RG an R active, and the only other heal used was IB which is the obvious 1633. Dude that's 902 heal per second, when my tool-tips say RG is 354 per second, and R is 351, which should only be 755 per second at max and I am actually poisoned when that 902 heal hits. This is a bunch of double upticks. I don't know if you're being serious or not right now, but if you are, you need to back up and consider what I've given you here. If you watch the DH footage, even with its 3x sources of regen, you never seen the green numbers do double upticks. The green numbers pop on the DH and then go away, and more green numbers do not pop again until the previous green numbers are gone. This is becaue the DH is not double upticking. I don't see how you aren't able to rationalize this.

Anyway, I'm done with you. It's in Arenanet's hands now. The world is flat. There is no bug with Ranger sustain. You're a far stronger player than I am.

Let's move on now.

 

 

Edited July 11 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

For the record : Skills that have lower coefficients are less and less useful the more stats one stacks on. For instance, if you are using a build that does 1000 healing base, and has a healing coeffecient (scaling) of 0, then adding 1000 healing power, does nothing for that skill...it still has 1000 healing whether at 1000 healing power, or 2000 healing power, etc... The same story is true for damage coeffecients. Smaller scaling, means stats have less and less value.

So if you are using a build that utilizes skills with high base, and low coefficients (scaling), then the most efficient investment of stats for those skills ends up being not investing in the stats. Likewise, skills that have low bases, and high coefficients, puts greater emphasis on investing in the stat.

The following shows three different individuals, one running no armor, another running full ascended celestial, and another with full healing power. 

No Stat (0 Healing Power) (735 Total)
Regeneration    166 per second
Rugged Growth    205 per second
Evasive Purity    364 per condi cleanse 

Max Celestial Stat (885 Healing Power) (1049 Total)
Regeneration    289 per second
Rugged Growth    304 per second
Evasive Purity    446 per condi cleanse 

Max Healer Stat (1900 Healing Power) (1423 Total)
Regeneration    443 per second
Rugged Growth    431 per second
Evasive Purity    549 per condi cleanse 

Side note: This has nothing to do with your duels btw, i just chose these three skills here since it is tangential to topic of discussion.

Notice the diminishing return when more stats are added.

Let me simplify what's being said here... and this is a principle of the power scaling in this game so listen carefully: Any skill that has a coefficient less than a 1.00 has a diminishing return on its investment in stats. 

What does that mean...It means that skills with lower coefficients, benefit more from not investing in those stats. Skills with higher coefficient benefit you more when investing in those stats. Take a look at the differences between someone wearing no armor, and someone wearing celestial, based on the skills that they took (regeneration, Rugged Growth, Evasive Purity) because these are low coefficient spells, this persons build, with respect to these spells, would actually be more optimal not playing on celestials.  

So I hope you guys getting the picture here...the non-triviality of this game, is such that talking about stats in a vacuum is not enough. Skills, and how they scale is an important factor with how stats interact with them. To take an extreme example...If your entire build just has base values, with 0 coefficient, then the most optimal choice you can make is playing that build with no stat investment...more precisely, adding gear will not change anything about the skills that your pressing.

So in reality, Celestial stats can make your build worse (is a worse decision) than another stat set, depending on what kind of build you are playing and how the skills on that build scale with stats.

Edited July 11 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Gotejjeken.1267]

45 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I assumed everyone would use the method we were already using, which is looking at the timestamps and gauging the very visual tells when you can clearly see it is doing double up-ticks.

The combat log doesn't show time stamps. You'd have to gauge the time stamp anyway, even with the combat log.

IT'S NOT EVASIVE PURITY. We already went over this in previous footage and now we'll go over again with this new footage. You can clearly see the difference of the EP trigger, vs the double uptick triggers of RG and R.

If you can't see it, you're choosing not to.

First, Evasive Purity was reference to earlier when cripple was cleared, and the 'impossible' 900/s HP regen.  It is possible because of EP + the above math.

Second, for combat log, it's not the timestamp to the second...that doesn't matter--it's the number of times something is proc'ing within a given range.  You are going off 'little green numbers' when literally the combat log shows you exactly what those are.

For instance, I've just tested it in PvE, Protect Me with 4.75 seconds of protection, yields 5 ticks of Rugged Growth as it should (as it rounds up).  Regen ticks are irrelevant here if you can view the combat log, as you will see them overlapping, or simply just don't give yourself regen (can just trigger prot in multiple ways to see how RG is working).

I'm not doing it as I could care less and 99.9% believe it is working, but if you want to, you will need a vid with combat log shown under these conditions:

• Prot Only (RG only)
• Prot + Regen (RG + RE)
• Pet set to passive, merged, whaetever (so only you are getting hit)

Also need to display and go over your prot durations to get a closed ended time range--like I did above with 4.75 protect me and 5 stacks of RG to prove 1s interval. 

By this, I mean there is a non-zero chance that the extra stack of RG is from rounding error, this works like this on I'm pretty sure every boon / boon-like effect. 

Edited July 11 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

First, Evasive Purity was reference to earlier when cripple was cleared, and the 'impossible' 900/s HP regen.  It is possible because of EP + the above math.

Ok look my guy, If you don't want to actually go frame by frame and analyze this footage in the same we did, we are long past theoretical numbers.

Like we have footage that actually full proves what is being used and what isn't.

Watch seconds 0 and 1 in my recent video. There are 7 different integers that pop up in 1 second, that are not Invigorating Bond. The only other sources of heal on that Druid is RG and R. WHAO is clearly not used in this time frame in the video.

7 integers. This is double ticks dude. It heals 902 in 0s to 1s, with passive regen alone, WHILE I AM POISONED mind you, when my RG and R in tool-tips says they do 354 and 351 per second only. If that poison hadn't been there, it would have thrown around a 1300 heal for one second. This is obviously double upticks. You can see it written all over the time stamps, the math, and the obvious 7 different green integer numbers popping up on the same animation frame before even vanishing. This is clearly obviously double upticks happening when prot is reapplied.

Just stop with the theoretical "let's sh!tpost trev" stuff and LOOK AT what is there in the video. It seems like you guys are just shutting your brains down, or looking for reasons to keep this going. I don't know what else to post/show you. This is very blatant and obvious to see.

I'm moving on past this. Arenanet needs to handle it now, if they care.

Edited July 11 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Zyreva.1078]

46 minutes ago, aymnad.9023 said:

I was curious to see if it really was a bug that could affect another game mode. I tried in PvE and could not replicate either. The closest option I found was evasive purity and relic of nayos as I noticed the dispel and the values are somewhat close to what happens.

Good catch - it does look like Trevor tried to stack multiple sources of healing to obscure the regen and RG ticks. Which is the opposite of what someone, who actually wants to showcase a bug, would do.

31 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The combat log doesn't show time stamps. You'd have to gauge the time stamp anyway, even with the combat log.

Condi ticks work well as "time stamps" for the combat log - as you can see in my "bug recreation" video.

32 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 "The DH is also double upticking!"

That's not what i said. I said that in the time frame that you claim to be 2 seconds (where my hp went from 41% to 50%) your heals are ticking 3 times - just like mine.

37 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

• 6s - WHAO 7937 and then a 215
• 6s - 368, 370 (It double upticks again, because WHAO copied prot)

At the start of 6s you have 11604 HP. After WHaO and Vigorous Recovery you have 19756 (+8152). After regen and RG procs once (+738) you have 20494 HP. At the start of 7s you still have 20494 HP. Where did that second proc of regen and RG go?

Probably to the same place those double procs in my video went.

Going through second 8-15 of my video (vs dh) frame by frame - according to you at least two double ticks happen. At which frames?