Team Population Count Is So Uneven - It May Be Broken!

[hugeboss.5432]

After trying 2 different teams, 2 different alliances, the same problem arising.

Our population count is really low compared to all the opponents. I estimate we have the outnumbered buff 75% of the time in a 24hr period (even in T4 lol).

Is the team creator bot really messed up? Using the wrong metrics? Or bad metric logic implemented? Something is not working quite right. A fundamental part of creating teams, is ensuring all teams have roughly equal numbers to start with. Don't use playtime as a metric for substituting real players, that doesn't actually work, it's not that simple, nor the same thing.

Perhaps there's some player-stats modifiers that's gone wacky? Maybe a player is so good (or corrupt data), that the team creator bot rates him as "777 players" and that causes the team population cap to drop. I don't know, but something is definitely off... far off target.

A football team needs 11 unique players, even if some of their players play 24/7, they still can't play as more than a single player at a time. If the team creation bot can't seem to figure out how to make good teams, I suggest just make it form the teams by random, with no buggy/bad-logic metric modifiers, and then work on from there. At least then everyone will end up with a decent team sometimes.

When I spoke to wvw players, the most important thing for almost all the veterans, was not winning or losing, but "content" (brawls+fights+caps+defense etc). This means every team needs roughly the same population count for that to function well. No need to think about balanced timezones yet, as the team populations are really messed up atm anyway. Figure this out first, then perhaps look at timezones later.

[Don't mess up the "roughly equal populations" on teams. Without that functioning properly, it's literally broken.]

[H K.4057]

First, we need to know what times you play and which server/shard you are on.

[Atoclone.4810]

Thing is, football players can be counted on to turn up, they get paid. 

Wvw players not so much. For example last month I played loads of wvw, the algorithm goes and balances based on that. However this month I've got stuff on so have played very little. There's little that can be done to deal with that but balance that I've not played. But then next month I may play loads

[RisingDawn.5796]

They should get some benefit of doubt for now, as it's still in beta. The algorithm for team creation, has to adjust over more Team matching periods. If it isn't good by the next 3 months, then you could question if it's the right direction.

Not even world linking's, during their own beta were anymore balanced, because of double links and the way transfers were handled for separate, host and link worlds.They never ever changed, how you could transfer to cheaper links, from more populated servers and repopulate and stack on a cheaper link server for 8 years. This was before second and other alt accounts, were easier to level and gear up with the new Vendors and currencies, which is another issue altogether.

What they can't balance is matchups based activity on certain worlds, right after a new team creation 'yet', especially during the summer, where not everyone chooses to play.

Edited August 9 by RisingDawn.5796

[joneirikb.7506]

If all you're concerned about is roughly equal number of players at any given time, then you have to accept that WvW is never going to be able to do that the way it's designed around 24/7.

You'd be better off arguing that WvW be changed into something else that does focus around that. Something like EotM with 2 hour skirmishes, and then destroys that instance, and creates new one, and fills with a much larger split of players as they come and go.

But clearly that would remove basically all other aspects of WvW like Score, team feeling (what remains), any kind of feeling of competition (well there was never too much of that, but some like the little we have/had), basically upgrades etc. It becomes a very different game mode, that might be a good thing for some and a bad thing for others.

Frankly, I think a large majority of players would be the most happy with EotM with EBG map, PIPS and Mount/glider.

[Gop.8713]

This is another problem that longer matches before reshuffling would solve, giving teams more time to settle in to their competitive niche . . .

But it's also important to remember that when players complain about lack of "content", what they mean is that their numberless horde can no longer steamroll the other teams. We saw during links that this is the only style of play wvwers will be satisfied with . . .

[Dawdler.8521]

41 minutes ago, Gop.8713 said:

This is another problem that longer matches before reshuffling would solve, giving teams more time to settle in to their competitive niche . . .

What would it solve? 

If teams only fight the same teams for weeks and weeks because they are in their designated tier... what are you fighting for?

When link-less worlds bottom ranked in T5 for months loosing every matchup, was the argument that they where in their competitive niche?

[MedievalThings.5417]

At this point since they want guilds to be the central focus, they should just reshuffle every single week.  Get rid of 1 up 1 down, just shuffle everyone around non-stop.  Give people a couple days each week to pick a guild they want to play with and make it happen every Friday.

[One more for the road.8950]

1 hour ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

If all you're concerned about is roughly equal number of players at any given time, then you have to accept that WvW is never going to be able to do that the way it's designed around 24/7.

PvP matches are supposed to be equal number of players at any given time, but even that fails at times with just five players. Yeah, that is not going to happen.

[Gop.8713]

39 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

What would it solve? 

If teams only fight the same teams for weeks and weeks because they are in their designated tier... what are you fighting for?

When link-less worlds bottom ranked in T5 for months loosing every matchup, was the argument that they where in their competitive niche?

This was assuming the goal was to find competitive matchups. If the goal is other, you're correct, it would solve nothing . . .

[coro.3176]

There's definitely something weird going on in the Mosswood-Throne-Yohlon matchup on NA right now. Red has a large population advantage at *all* hours of the day.

I also notice that red has a lot of new / low-rank WvW players - way more than green (and I'm on blue, so I can't see that side). I suspect what happened is that either a guild all made alt accounts on red, or somehow new WvW players are picking that server at a higher rate than the other two.

I think this is the wvwintel for it: https://wvwintel.com/#1015 but the server names are obviously different.

Edit: actually, this site seems to be much more useful for analyzing: https://kills.werdes.net/#/matches/2024.08.03-2024.08.10-yohlon-haven-mosswood-throne-of-balthazar/

Edited August 8 by coro.3176

[Dawdler.8521]

28 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

There's definitely something weird going on in the Mosswood-Throne-Yohlon matchup on NA right now. Red has a large population advantage at *all* hours of the day.

I also notice that red has a lot of new / low-rank WvW players - way more than green (and I'm on blue, so I can't see that side). I suspect what happened is that either a guild all made alt accounts on red, or somehow new WvW players are picking that server at a higher rate than the other two.

I think this is the wvwintel for it: https://wvwintel.com/#1015 but the server names are obviously different.

Edit: actually, this site seems to be much more useful for analyzing: https://kills.werdes.net/#/matches/2024.08.03-2024.08.10-yohlon-haven-mosswood-throne-of-balthazar/

gw2mists.com is still a better overview (especially if you want to copy into excel or similar). Not sure what the definition of "weird" is but yeah NA matchups this is week are pretty bad.

[coro.3176]

1 minute ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

gw2mists.com is still a better overview (especially if you want to copy into excel or similar). Not sure what the definition of "weird" is but yeah NA matchups this is week are pretty bad.

Can't get gw22mists to load for me at the moment. It's just unexpected because normally the population imbalance is spread out across time zones. Red might dominate prime time, Green might have SEA, and Blue could be evenly spread across two or more. In this matchup, Red just has every time zone, and seems to have double the population of the other two sides.

[One more for the road.8950]

4 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

There's definitely something weird going on in the Mosswood-Throne-Yohlon matchup on NA right now. Red has a large population advantage at *all* hours of the day.

I also notice that red has a lot of new / low-rank WvW players - way more than green (and I'm on blue, so I can't see that side). I suspect what happened is that either a guild all made alt accounts on red, or somehow new WvW players are picking that server at a higher rate than the other two.

I think this is the wvwintel for it: https://wvwintel.com/#1015 but the server names are obviously different.

Edit: actually, this site seems to be much more useful for analyzing: https://kills.werdes.net/#/matches/2024.08.03-2024.08.10-yohlon-haven-mosswood-throne-of-balthazar/

I don't know about NA, but I know for sure that on EU there has been moving of people and even entire guilds through support that didn't actually have an issue with their chosen WvW guild not working after the last reshuffle. Which I am suuuuuure doesn't mess with anything at all.

[ChrisWhitey.9076]

We know it is broken. Anet highlighted that match making will not work for large alliances in different time zones of play and people instead of making new alliances to fix the system they abused it and it got worse. I don't think this is intentional but something we will have to accept as is with the WR beta.

 

[manu.7539]

5 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

There's definitely something weird going on in the Mosswood-Throne-Yohlon matchup on NA right now

So sorry 😛

But I agree, Mosswood begun in T4, what a joke and alts are probably to be looked at.

[Mistwraithe.3106]

I think alts are likely to be the bane of this system. If you assume that most people who used to bandwagon transfer on the old system had strong reasons to want to do so (eg wanting to be in stacked teams or whatever), strong enough to pay gems to transfer then it seems a reasonable assumption that many of those people will create alt accounts, because that's the remaining best way of gaming the system.

It doesn't require that many people using alts to transfer before the system is irrevocably broken. If you assume 20% of people will use alts to switch from weaker teams to stronger teams across all matchup then that means the two weaker teams in each matchup end up with 80% of the players the algorithm expected and the one stronger team in each matchup ends up with 140% of the expected players. That means the stronger team has 1.75 times as many players as the weaker teams! From there it is almost inevitable that some people on the weaker teams get annoyed at being outnumbered and just logoff for the weak and there you have it, the stronger team is now > double the strength of the weaker teams.

(Obviously people won't be transferring within a single matchup, they will transfer across matchups, but if everyone does that then it should average out, the few stronger teams get 40% stronger while the weaker teams get 20% weaker. If it doesn't average out then you probably get even bigger swings, some popular teams will double in size from alts while many others shrink or remain the same).

Note that I think 20% being alts is quite likely for the longer term WvW players - I've seen multiple people on these WvW forums saying they have alts, and I also know various people in the guilds I am a member of also have alts. But even if you change my numbers so that only 10% of players swap to alts you still end up with 90% playing 120% so the stronger team is 33% stronger... this is still likely to devolve into a very one sided matchup.

Edited August 9 by Mistwraithe.3106

[Riba.3271]

There are people when I tag up, so I can't say that populations are unbalanced. Whenever I log in, there is no one else trying to organise anything with some brain behind it. So frankly I look at my teammates running like creatures from Planet of Apes, and they just get steamrolled losing numbers because none of them stepped up so teammates can have fun.

Lot of you guys just aren't trying your best anymore. You never tag up, you don't play proper builds and you don't communicate... And I don't even mean voice comms, just saying that siege needs refreshing or that you spotted enemy blob on another map is enough. There are 50+ of us on all maps, and no one saw anything useful for the team? 99% of you have given up on commanding, placing siege, scouting, typing things on chat, supplementing party comps and even critising people for being ineffective. It is a joke how far WvW community has fallen: You want people do something for you, but you never do anything for anyone.

Main gripe about lack of servers is that I cannot teach people how to do things right, and the same people I just enlightened being on my side in 1 month.  So I am stuck playing Firebrand and commanding. Really miss english speaking open tags that were on voice. I can't play the game more than couple hours a week if I am stuck commanding with no1 else to inspire me to do it more.

Edited August 9 by Riba.3271

[Chaba.5410]

Players generally don't tag up when someone else is already tagged up. If you want players to try it and develop, they need the opportunity and then the support.

[Riba.3271]

14 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Players generally don't tag up when someone else is already tagged up. If you want players to try it and develop, they need the opportunity and then the support.

Only other people who are leading, and not just trying-to-lose gaming, in this linking are Germans during primetime and one English speaking commander during weekends. It is the same as last linking: If I don't tag up, best I will see is some foodless ranger danger feeding bags to get extra pips. It isn't that I haven't tried playing without tagging up, but that there are no other commanders.

Sometimes I even type in chat "someone should tag up", but no.... There are 40+ allies on map waiting for commander and dozen people asking for tag in chat but clearly all of them never take a shot at greatness. I won't even log in without intent to tag up, that is how bad the system is. Worlds are gone so there is no reason for me to care about how enemies or allies are doing.

Edited August 9 by Riba.3271

[Mabi black.1824]

11 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

If teams only fight the same teams for weeks and weeks because they are in their designated tier... what are you fighting for?

Someone on the forum has been trying to explain it to you for almost 3 years now. It is possible not to have the intellect to get there a little earlier, without throwing 3 years in the trash. If you only look at this game mode for the ''combat'' maybe it's better that you start playing Fortnite. or someone else shoots everything. fighting or slaying an opponent is not, and will never be a problem for anyone. Not even for the one who dies, because he will return 1 minute later with a friend and get his scalp. watching or participating just for this becomes boring in a few minutes, at least for me. It becomes more interesting, therefore capable of capturing participation and interest, if you look at WVW as a chessboard, strategy, structures, defense, attack.
but to do this it is necessary to stimulate belonging, difference, factions, give identity to those who are your friend and who is your enemy etc etc. WVW is an interesting game only if I look at this aspect of the game, if I look only at combat it becomes trivial. And trivial things don't last long, usually.

[Mabi black.1824]

1 hour ago, Riba.3271 said:

Lot of you guys just aren't trying your best anymore. You never tag up

Confirmed, my problem is playing a team/server game after we have made the concept of teams/servers completely useless. which leads me to a lack of interest in participation, which you can translate as a lack of purpose.

[Mabi black.1824]

54 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

Worlds are gone so there is no reason for me to care about how enemies or allies are doing.

confirmed again, at least I'm not the only one who has this feeling.

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

13 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

There's definitely something weird going on in the Mosswood-Throne-Yohlon matchup on NA right now. Red has a large population advantage at *all* hours of the day.

I am on Mosswood, and from the last almost two weeks it seems as far as "alliance" guilds go, we have 1 fight and 2 community(I am in one of those).  My guild has a public tag that has been VERY active most times of the day seemingly almost every day. The other community guild also has at least one public tag during primetime, I have seen a couple other public tags, but these seem to be a driving force for players playing a lot more, and new ones joining up and following along. Why did it put us in t3 to begin? Who knows.

Last wr period we were on Lagula's Kraal, and seemed to have 1 fight guild "alliance" and our community guild. We went from t3 to t1 and stayed there, that time we really only had that one person public tagging but it made a huge difference. 

[Hesione.9412]

On 8/9/2024 at 7:38 AM, MedievalThings.5417 said:

At this point since they want guilds to be the central focus, they should just reshuffle every single week.  Get rid of 1 up 1 down, just shuffle everyone around non-stop.  Give people a couple days each week to pick a guild they want to play with and make it happen every Friday.

Which is putting players into alliances, some of which are overstacked. If you had the option of being in a large alliance that fields zergs over multiple timezones, would you join the alliance that can has numbers, but not during your timezone?