How to kill cele harbs?

[gyravi.9632]

Maybe this was asked already, but I never found a good answer to this.

How to kill 1vs1 a cele harbinger?

I fought all kinds of builds in WvW, even cele willbender, cele catas, but the most annoying thing I face is always cele harbs.

No matter how perfectly I play, completely kite their elite and landing every single cc and burst, they just random dodge and facetank it like it's nothing.

I tried super glass builds and even landing my full burst perfectly they go max at 40% health even if they random dodge and spam kills completely like tards, and on the other part, you do half mistake and they 100-0 you.

I tried playing cele willbender or other toxic celestial builds and nothing, they always do more damage and tank my damage like it's nothing, at least I can escape to them.

So unless it's a mirror which I don't like, because I don't play that ape build just to counter it, which is the best build to directly counter those apes and in general all cele builds?

 

Thanks.

[Codename T.2847]

My cele signet cata build eats any harbinger, short of the very best, like breakfast. I only ever bring it out for that occasion too xD feels a bit nasty to play that

[Dean Calaway.9718]

58 minutes ago, gyravi.9632 said:

cele harbinger?

How do you know they're using Celestial gear?

1 hour ago, gyravi.9632 said:

other toxic celestial builds

How are Celestial builds toxic?

1 hour ago, gyravi.9632 said:

So unless it's a mirror which I don't like, because I don't play that ape build just to counter it

Those ape builds seem good enough to 100-0 you, not so apey hey?

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 hours ago, gyravi.9632 said:

Maybe this was asked already, but I never found a good answer to this.

How to kill 1vs1 a cele harbinger?

I fought all kinds of builds in WvW, even cele willbender, cele catas, but the most annoying thing I face is always cele harbs.

No matter how perfectly I play, completely kite their elite and landing every single cc and burst, they just random dodge and facetank it like it's nothing.

I tried super glass builds and even landing my full burst perfectly they go max at 40% health even if they random dodge and spam kills completely like tards, and on the other part, you do half mistake and they 100-0 you.

I tried playing cele willbender or other toxic celestial builds and nothing, they always do more damage and tank my damage like it's nothing, at least I can escape to them.

So unless it's a mirror which I don't like, because I don't play that ape build just to counter it, which is the best build to directly counter those apes and in general all cele builds?

 

Thanks.

Hit the Cele Harb.

If you get dunked on by Cele Harbs you don't play perfectly mate, Cele Willies and Catas are so much more capable. If you play Glass and only bring it down to 40% then you're either not playing glass or you're just dumping your attacks into invulnvs, dodges and whatever else. If you struggle on Cele Willy against a Cele Harb it's a certified skill issue.

1 hour ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

How do you know they're using Celestial gear?

How are Celestial builds toxic?

"If it kills me it's Cele, it's toxic and it's OP" mantra of WvW for a while now.

[gyravi.9632]

2 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Hit the Cele Harb.

If you get dunked on by Cele Harbs you don't play perfectly mate, Cele Willies and Catas are so much more capable. If you play Glass and only bring it down to 40% then you're either not playing glass or you're just dumping your attacks into invulnvs, dodges and whatever else. If you struggle on Cele Willy against a Cele Harb it's a certified skill issue.

Cele harb can cleanse every single burn or other condi you throw at them with cele willy, plus as cele willy your power damage is facetanked without problems because of course you are not glass cannon.

Cele harb doesn't have any block or invulns.

I insta kite when they throw elite, then I go for my burst, for example sword5 to immob, they don't even bother dodging that, like this last guy literally "dodged" my f2 resolve... I sword5 into whirling into f1 into other burst and they just facetanked it and back to full with the healing skill.

and it's not like i have 500 power damage and 500 condi, I know my build is effective and i can kill pretty much everything, except cele harbs.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

31 minutes ago, gyravi.9632 said:

Cele harb can cleanse every single burn or other condi you throw at them with cele willy, plus as cele willy your power damage is facetanked without problems because of course you are not glass cannon.

Cele harb doesn't have any block or invulns.

I insta kite when they throw elite, then I go for my burst, for example sword5 to immob, they don't even bother dodging that, like this last guy literally "dodged" my f2 resolve... I sword5 into whirling into f1 into other burst and they just facetanked it and back to full with the healing skill.

and it's not like i have 500 power damage and 500 condi, I know my build is effective and i can kill pretty much everything, except cele harbs.

F2 condi cleanse, weapon swap condi cleanse, passive condi removal through heal signet, condi removal with light combo. If you struggle against Conditions and damage pressure on Willbender it's a you problem especially since you can heal from all that condi removal or alternatively heal through blocking.. something Cele Willy also has nice access to. 

If your opponent can heal back to max after your burst then it's time to get gear that is better than level 20 blue gear.

Don't go around pretending that Cele Willy is weak, it just tells us you're trigger happy on defensive skills and just attack an enemy without thinking what to do. Learn how to play Cele Willy - or whatever you're playing - first.

[Shadow.2097]

Projectile reflect/block is the counter to Harb, but I also find mobility helps a lot. They have mobility skills but they're not great and they don't have swiftness and can't really get more than 25% movement speed. You need to fight them somewhere with terrain, they don't have great vertical mobility. Also obstacles to block their projectiles. If the harb cannot hit you, the harb cannot build 25 stacks of carapace for the protection, and their damage is buffed by carapace too. Play power willbender with speed relic and you will be able to kite them forever and spike hard when the opportunity is there. Thieves and eles beat them no problem, but you have to know when to engage and when not to. Go fight some good players with a harb of your own and you will soon learn the best times to attack. 

[CafPow.1542]

Harbingers are easier to win against for me than willys. Reflects help.

btw cele willbender is not as good as power ones. Their burst is insanely good. Bit i guess this thread just follows down the cele-bad-road.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Wouldn't reaper with a pistol be better than harb in WvW now? 

After weapon master I don't get the fascination with harbinger other than its elite which everyone knows to kite now.  If you run reaper, you'd have an entire second lifebar--and practically same damage.  

Could even run power reaper instead with swords to be a way more mobile roamer--idk harb just seems so 2022 to me.  

[TheGrimm.5624]

Skip the armor set part of the question since that is moot. Play a Harbi, range is biggest weakness. 

[MedievalThings.5417]

3 hours ago, gyravi.9632 said:

Cele harb can cleanse every single burn or other condi you throw at them with cele willy, plus as cele willy your power damage is facetanked without problems because of course you are not glass cannon.

Cele harb doesn't have any block or invulns.

I insta kite when they throw elite, then I go for my burst, for example sword5 to immob, they don't even bother dodging that, like this last guy literally "dodged" my f2 resolve... I sword5 into whirling into f1 into other burst and they just facetanked it and back to full with the healing skill.

and it's not like i have 500 power damage and 500 condi, I know my build is effective and i can kill pretty much everything, except cele harbs.

Condi tempest works great vs it, just don't stand still while the elite is up.

[KrHome.1920]

Necro main here. There isn't one specific cele harb build. Cele harb is super flexible in its traitline options. It is possible to build a harbinger that is unkillable 1v1 even when you bring a full marauder + scholar rune + 100% fury uptime build and land everything you have. This build will outregenerate you and has even the option to cc you for a few seconds to be able to heal up without any counterpressure from you. It's the same as immortal renegade, vindicator and catalyst. The only thing you can do is avoid these builds which is why mobility is the most important thing your roaming build should bring to the table.

The only balance here is that these builds can't stop you from disengaging when you build for mobility and damage while they just build for sustain and damage or sustain and mobility.

Edited August 11 by KrHome.1920

[ArchonWing.9480]

You know I notice how in this threads people always fixate on what the other person's running but never on what they are running and that honestly matters more than anything else, eg does your class have any access to kiting/ranging which entirely changes the nature of the whole fight.

It should really be mandatory for people to post what they're doing, because sometimes people will either end up hard countering themselves by making a build that doesn't have that kind of flexibility to fight these things or playing a build that they can't handle., And maybe, just maybe, it's a bad matchup and some other things can be done.

At the very least OP did try a variety of builds but I gotta say it's better to play one build well, then to play a bunch badly, especially if they're just grabbed FOTM stuff.

For example, I think  like IMO thjat celebender build on metabattle is kinda junk in this context. It doesn't have off-hand sword so you lack initiative and mobility.. Perhaps this is a personal bias, but I don't get why any roaming guardian build wouldn't use OH sword unless you don't have SOTO. It is just so good with the rushing immob and also both attacks hurt even with cele gear. I just think having no immob on a cele build is a waste. And let's admit it-- one of the most fun things to do is to tie necros down with CCs and beat them up.

 And these all being clunky weapons (oh pistol, axe? Has anyone ever tried actually  attacking people with those weapons? I thought OH pistol was a pain in pve, much less vs actual people)  that won't hit people with half a brain unless you lock them down.... except you don't have such way to lock people down.  This is just the kinda kitten you use to maximize damage on people doing dailies/running to the zerg for mediocre montages. Well maybe good players could make it work but I don't think it's very new player friendly, and also I probably would lose 100% of all fights lol.

Oh, and the build has like 2 stunbreaks (both will often have to be used for purposes that are NOT stunbreaks) and only stability off f3 procs. That honestly just sounds like suicide against any necro. You are like 1 corrupt  from oblivion or even if you just lose your momentum and whiff.  I have no idea why all these willbenders have a permeating wrath fetish when it's arguably the worst permeating wrath amongst the guardian specs.. Like yes, I'm sure the parser tells you that you do a ton of burn damage vs randoms, but against a harbringer that can easily cleanse against your mono-condi, it's just not going to be as hot.

The result is you are getting a less mobile, more easily stunned, more easily dodged weaker version of the marauder willbender but because condi goes through toughness, you're acutally not that much tankier in that regards too. So it just seems to be throwing away all the advantages of cele to me, and that's actually a pretty darned hard thing to do lol.  I guess that's how to balance things out? Perhaps I am glad people are running this build so that the actual broken stuff doesn't get used.

 

I would not be surprised if the harbies were just running circles around you.

Edited August 12 by ArchonWing.9480

[oatsnjuices.1698]

I think most players agree celestial should be removed.

[Guybrush.4762]

• A lot of harb attack require them to have line of sight and face toward you, you can prevent a lot of damage by constantly positioning yourself in their back and playing around terrain.
• Try to keep a stun break ready for their shroud 5 (that is their float), if you can watch for the animation and dodge it it is obviously even better. Once it is dealt with you have a 25 second windows where they are less scary.
• A big skill to watch for is their elite elixir. If they land it either on you, on them or both, try to kite, disengage or play defensively. There is no point to fight them when they have all the boon and you have all the condi. Stabilize first, reset the fight if you must!
• Depending on how they are built, they gain a lot of buff, condition cleanses and are overall more tanky and scary when entering shroud. Watch for their shroud and plan your burst/disengage accordingly.
• Finally, it is a bit of a general advise but one of the best way to understand how to beat something is to play that build for a couple of day, see what is difficult to handle from the other side, and try to replicate that later.

Edited August 25 by Guybrush.4762

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, oatsnjuices.1698 said:

I think most players agree celestial should be removed.

No, plenty abuse it and will tell you how its fine.

[Triptaminas.4789]

Reflect

[oatsnjuices.1698]

44 minutes ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

Reflect

the main spam attack does not reflect

[TheGrimm.5624]

13 hours ago, oatsnjuices.1698 said:

I think most players agree celestial should be removed.

That is a no.

[TheGrimm.5624]

14 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

The only balance here is that these builds can't stop you from disengaging when you build for mobility and damage while they just build for sustain and damage or sustain and mobility.

Agree as stated before, bring a kite build and burn it down from range. Its really annoying to melee builds but that is its targets and it does well against them. Never like facing them when when on a  pure melee build, but that's not them, that is an issue in my melee builds. 

[CutesySylveon.8290]

Y'all really in here overstating Cele Willy because you hate power Willy so much. It's really nothing special and loses WAY too much damage when invested in sufficient defenses to stand with other Cele builds, and Harbinger can outlast it very easily because the burst from Willy, outside of Judge's Intervention, is extremely telegraphed.

If you really want to stall out or beat a Cele Harbinger, use Cele Catalyst or Cele Vindicator. Both have a ton if defensive uptime and Vindicator has a lot of evade frames and cleanse with Saint Victor. Your damage will be very low because your condi will aid the Harbinger, but you have plenty of CC to abuse necro with and you have a lot of resistance. 

I've seen some ridiculously annoying Condi P/P Bound Daredevils that beat or stall most builds in 1v1 as well, and it's unbelievably monkey-brain to play.

[CafPow.1542]

18 hours ago, oatsnjuices.1698 said:

I think most players agree celestial should be removed.

Most bad players. So yes.

[gyravi.9632]

On 8/11/2024 at 11:27 AM, Codename T.2847 said:

My cele signet cata build eats any harbinger, short of the very best, like breakfast. I only ever bring it out for that occasion too xD feels a bit nasty to play that

 

5 hours ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

If you really want to stall out or beat a Cele Harbinger, use Cele Catalyst or Cele Vindicator.

So everyone seems to agree that cele cata should kill cele harb, so what's the most toxic broken possible build that a cele cata can play?

[reddie.5861]

On 8/11/2024 at 11:45 AM, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

How do you know they're using Celestial gear?

How are Celestial builds toxic?

Those ape builds seem good enough to 100-0 you, not so apey hey?

not hard to figure out? to see if one is using cele, we all know this.

why are celestial builds not toxic? if they would nerf the stats to -50% then maybe yes.
it has to much stats and theres no downside of using cele. i didnt test but im pretty sure if a person doesnt cleanse fast enough ur dps is probably as good as full glass cannon harb
in theory ur dmg might be half but u also added half ur condi dmg so at the end ur still at full dmg. + the rest of the goodies.

cele should be fixed in WvW theres multiple ways to deal with this armor anet just has to do it.
every ape build in cele can 100-0 someone if u know a tiny bit how to play.

[Codename T.2847]

21 minutes ago, gyravi.9632 said:

 

So everyone seems to agree that cele cata should kill cele harb, so what's the most toxic broken possible build that a cele cata can play?

Fire traits (1 2 2) + earth traits (3 1 2) + catalyst (3 3 1) Full cele, scepter/focus. Rune of Balthazar and relic of Astral Ward. (sigils are a bit idk) Skills are restoration, fire and earth signets + stunbreak of choice. elite skill is Celerity of course.

This build gives a hard time to any harbinger and can kill the most average ones easily: has a shitton of reflects, many cleanses and pretty frequent stabi+resistance application. DMG comes from burning application with annoying bleed and immob to boot, while also having poison occasionally and pretty respectable raw dmg. The only discernible weakness of this build is not having any mobility