CELE IS GETTING NERFED

[willow.8209]

If I were tasked with nerfing cele for WvW, this is how I might do that. Figures used are arbitrarily based on other figures I saw recently in this discussion: I did not do the maths myself. Other percentages might work better.

In WvW, reduce power, condition damage, and healing by 5%. Reduce everything else by 25%, but leave all the stats there. This way it's not as confusing as being like, well it has all the stats in PvE but not quite all in WvW. It still has them but you give up a bit more, to have an apprentice-of-all-trades gear in a competitive mode.

With or without that I would add attribute combinations like these:

Condi, conc, precision, toughness 

Condi, expertise, precision, toughness

Condi, precision, toughness, expertise 

Condi, precision, vitality, expertise

Condi, precision, vitality, power

Condi, expertise, toughness, power

Condi, toughness, expertise, healing power

Condi, precision, conc, expertise

Condi, expertise, power, precision

Power, ferocity, condi, expertise

Condi, conc, precision, expertise

Power, toughness, condi, precision

Power, conc, vitality, precision

Power, condi, conc, healing

Condi, healing, vitality, expertise

Condi, healing, precision, expertise

Condi, expertise, healing, conc

While concentration can go with any other main function, expertise to condi/DOT is roughly the equivalent of ferocity to power/strike damage. (precision seems to help both, and each will benefit from having the other included as well). Condi has always been under-represented in attribute combinations. Cele was functioning as a patch to that. 

Aside from cele and with the damage as the main stat (with another attribute that augments damage being present whether as main or as secondary):

There are currently 9 options for power and ferocity, and 2 options for condi and expertise.

There are 14 options for power and precision, and 3 options for condi and precision.

There are 5 options for power and healing, and 2 for condi and healing (3 if you count apostate's which only goes with weapons)

There are 9 options that have any ferocity with anything else, and 5 that have any expertise with anything else. While there is 1 with ferocity as a main stat (dragon's) and 1 with expertise as main stat (binger's), only the power variant has a main damage stat. 

So with condi taking over the WvW meta, cele is taking over as well mainly because the condi choices are lacking. I see it as less about cele itself and more about lack of diversity in the selection of attribute combinations. 

For group play, cele is rarely the best choice that could be made if there were more options, unless you have some build that needs all the things, which is often ele (tho could be rev as well). Ele however is not a class that often gets pointed out as OP, and there are reasons for that.

This is why you don't see many power build wearing cele in the build libraries. You do, on the other hand, see a lot of marauder (or mixed berzerker and marauder) and minstrel in the libraries (so still a lot of reliance on one or a few attribute combinations). There is no condi equivalent to marauder (which would look like condi, precision, toughness, expertise or condi, expertise, precision, toughness, or something like those but using vitality instead of toughness), and no concentration equivalent to minstrel (which would look like toughness, concentration, healing, vitality). 

Edited September 15 by willow.8209

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

9 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Why should trailblazer for example not work? It would help with the lack of expertise.

Do you honestly not understand why throwing together random bits of minstrel, marauder, plaguedoctor, etc. doesn't actually produce a viable build?  It has to deal with the stat total.  Celestial "works" because it gives 639 points into every attribute for a total of 5,751 total points.  Even after the nerf, this is 4,473 total, which is far more total points per item than any other prefix in the game.  This means that mixing random bits of garbage into the setup isn't going to produce something better.  Every piece of gear that gets swapped out for condition duration and boon duration is taking from power, precision, ferocity, condition damage, healing power, toughness, and vitality.  To take traiblazer as an example, replacing bits with trailblazer will take away all of the offensive power stats and put them into condition damage (which does very little), condition duration (too little to matter), and toughness + vitality, which is nice but it is too hard to kill something already.  To get that 42% condition duration, you would need to replace every single piece of gear with Trailblazer, leaving you unable to kill anything.

The fact is that Ele is losing 1,278 stat points that it was balanced around having, and there is no amount of gear swapping  that will compensate for that.  Whatever rune or sigil you suggest will just end up replacing the current one I have with little to no overall gain.  

 

9 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

i try to get you sone ideas to „undo“ the nerf a little bit. Take it or leave it. 🙂

This is disingenuous.  

9 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

You: „i see no eles!“ 

me: „well i do“

 

why exactly is your point an argument and mine is not? Stop pretending your personal opinion is more than exactly that.

This doesn't make sense.

9 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

we will lack concentration and expertise when using celestial. I tell you how you can switch a few gear pieces to get it back. Then you tell me that this is not useful cause we don’t use these stats well, while at the same time we will miss those stats darely due to the nerf.

stop it with schrödingers argument and make up your mind. I was just trying to be helpful but stay on the doomsday-side and wuite i really don’t care.

You throw random gear prefixes out there without any thought to how it would actually work, and then get angry when people point out what you're saying is useless.  You are completely disregarding my explanation on disabling conditions for no reason.  What I am saying here is not my opinion, it is the numbers.  

Of course I'm dumping elementalist after these updates.  It won't work in roaming or small scale anymore, and it will continue to not work until the base boon durations and the non-damaging condition durations get boosted to something that can work without a mandatory 42% duration investment.  I'm just going to swap over to Harbinger, equip myself with full trailblazer, and dump endless conditions on people while being nigh immortal.  

[Sonork.2916]

26 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

This means that mixing random bits of garbage into the setup isn't going to produce something better.  

This is why cele was stupid and deserves a nerf, it beats out everything else in pure value.  Did you know, you're suppose to make builds using different combos of stats to get something you want.   One stat set shouldn't be the best overall, and even after this adjustment cele is still going to be one of the strongest sets in the game!

God forbid you have to use another combo of stats to get something you want for your build.  What a horrible, horrible... horrible shame that must be.

Edited September 15 by Sonork.2916

[CafPow.1542]

52 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Do you honestly not understand why throwing together random bits of minstrel, marauder, plaguedoctor, etc. doesn't actually produce a viable build?  It has to deal with the stat total.  Celestial "works" because it gives 639 points into every attribute for a total of 5,751 total points.  Even after the nerf, this is 4,473 total, which is far more total points per item than any other prefix in the game.  This means that mixing random bits of garbage into the setup isn't going to produce something better.  Every piece of gear that gets swapped out for condition duration and boon duration is taking from power, precision, ferocity, condition damage, healing power, toughness, and vitality.  To take traiblazer as an example, replacing bits with trailblazer will take away all of the offensive power stats and put them into condition damage (which does very little), condition duration (too little to matter), and toughness + vitality, which is nice but it is too hard to kill something already.  To get that 42% condition duration, you would need to replace every single piece of gear with Trailblazer, leaving you unable to kill anything.

The fact is that Ele is losing 1,278 stat points that it was balanced around having, and there is no amount of gear swapping  that will compensate for that.  Whatever rune or sigil you suggest will just end up replacing the current one I have with little to no overall gain.  

 

This is disingenuous.  

This doesn't make sense.

You throw random gear prefixes out there without any thought to how it would actually work, and then get angry when people point out what you're saying is useless.  You are completely disregarding my explanation on disabling conditions for no reason.  What I am saying here is not my opinion, it is the numbers.  

Of course I'm dumping elementalist after these updates.  It won't work in roaming or small scale anymore, and it will continue to not work until the base boon durations and the non-damaging condition durations get boosted to something that can work without a mandatory 42% duration investment.  I'm just going to swap over to Harbinger, equip myself with full trailblazer, and dump endless conditions on people while being nigh immortal.  

You really don’t get it. 😄

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

1 hour ago, Sonork.2916 said:

This is why cele was stupid and deserves a nerf, it beats out everything else in pure value.  Did you know, you're suppose to make builds using different combos of stats to get something you want.   One stat set shouldn't be the best overall, and even after this adjustment cele is still going to be one of the strongest sets in the game!

God forbid you have to use another combo of stats to get something you want for your build.  What a horrible, horrible... horrible shame that must be.

For ele it is horrible.  There isn't another profession that is as dependent on every stat like ele is.  I talk about harbinger, but I've run WvW as a Marauder Engineer for awhile, and that worked fine.  I've also run as a Marauder Revenant, an old-school Viper Necromancer, and Marauder Thief on very rare occasion.  Other professions actually work quite well with marauder, trailblazer, soldier, ritualist, and even viper/berserker on occasion.

I've tried running Marshalls, Marauder, Trailblazer, and Zealot's on ele for roaming.  It doesn't end particularly well.  It speaks a lot about the profession that Celestial is still the best overall option for roaming, even after the nerfs.  

[bq pd.2148]

4 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

For ele it is horrible.  There isn't another profession that is as dependent on every stat like ele is.  I talk about harbinger, but I've run WvW as a Marauder Engineer for awhile, and that worked fine.  I've also run as a Marauder Revenant, an old-school Viper Necromancer, and Marauder Thief on very rare occasion.  Other professions actually work quite well with marauder, trailblazer, soldier, ritualist, and even viper/berserker on occasion.

I've tried running Marshalls, Marauder, Trailblazer, and Zealot's on ele for roaming.  It doesn't end particularly well.  It speaks a lot about the profession that Celestial is still the best overall option for roaming, even after the nerfs.  

personally i found power ele alot more dangerous to fight than cele ones, even if the latter one might take longer to kill.
that being said, if ele and ele alone needs another 1k+ stat advantage after the nerfs, nothing is stopping anet from adjusting ele specifically. however given that anet often seems suprised by the impact of their own patches, it might be better if they first wait and see how ele and other classes actually perform after the change.

[CafPow.1542]

3 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

personally i found power ele alot more dangerous to fight than cele ones, even if the latter one might take longer to kill.
that being said, if ele and ele alone needs another 1k+ stat advantage after the nerfs, nothing is stopping anet from adjusting ele specifically. however given that anet often seems suprised by the impact of their own patches, it might be better if they first wait and see how ele and other classes actually perform after the change.

Preferably adjust the class, not the gear i also advocate for that. No doubt the cele nerf hurts eles most but as you said, there are dangerous glass cannon options that can be learned.

cele makes you mostly just tankier with more sustain. And here is the problem i don’t get. Do we really want a wvw where there are only glasscannons run around and call it „build diversity“?

me personally i don’t think this will destroy ele cause at the same time we get some buffs on it. But one might adjust a bit in the build.

unironically the spider over you defends the nerf cause if it is one statcombo that truly makes a class usable, then the nerf is justified and the statcombo is way to strong while the class is to weak.

thank god it’s not like that.

[Exzen.2976]

9 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Those are just power builds.

if this is „build diversity“ for you i can only laugh. Sorry. Cele was / is at least another style, more bunker / sustain. I don’t think the nerf makes cele irrelevant tho and i even am okay with some nerfings but you know generally speaking:

deleting a stat option from the game would mean you have 1 less option to build. This is the exact opposite of „more diversity“ brother.

Cele's not being deleted though. I'm sorry for you that you can't see it. I was responding to the comment re marauders. Condi will be via le, hybrid will be viable. Cele will still be playable. Just brought in line - reverted to how it was originally - when it was still used, just not BiS for half the meta. You're clearly just choosing to be controversial here.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Are we really pretending that this is the end of eles and eles didn't use cele before the 2 stats buff?

 

[CafPow.1542]

38 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

Cele's not being deleted though. I'm sorry for you that you can't see it. I was responding to the comment re marauders. Condi will be via le, hybrid will be viable. Cele will still be playable. Just brought in line - reverted to how it was originally - when it was still used, just not BiS for half the meta. You're clearly just choosing to be controversial here.

Yeah no i agree on that one tho. I think „full cele“ might not be it anymore or swap out some runes or relics or whatever but generally cele is not dead.

only in zergs, and there, it should be dead imo ^^
 

6 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Are we really pretending that this is the end of eles and eles didn't use cele before the 2 stats buff?

 

i don’t xD

[TheGrimm.5624]

The new lead falls for the same bait as Moe did when taking control. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

35 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Are we really pretending that this is the end of eles and eles didn't use cele before the 2 stats buff?

 

lol, I would hope not. Which is more funny as Ele gets buffs to power in the same patch. Bias much from some devs?

Edited September 15 by TheGrimm.5624

[TheGrimm.5624]

3 hours ago, Sonork.2916 said:

This is why cele was stupid and deserves a nerf, it beats out everything else in pure value. 

What? Cele made sense in hybrid builds. Power stats make sense in power builds. Same with condi, heals and support. The strawman argument that cele was BiS everywhere is for players looking to claim they lost a fight due to a gear set. We are decade in and the same was used to ask for nerfs to any gear set that had any defenses in it. Sorry, no, they made terribad calls to remove defense builds from sPvP so a big no from me here. They killed sPvP, if they want to muck with gear sets here they will kill WvW. 

[CafPow.1542]

27 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

nerfs to any gear set that had any defenses in it

This and the only reason i can come up with is: if you fail to oneshot somebody with your one-trick-pony than it’s the others fault and that can’t be.

maybe i go roam with minstrel out of spite. xD (oh god i will need 20 minutes to clear a camp…)

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

We are decade in and the same was used to ask for nerfs to any gear set that had any defenses in it. Sorry, no, they made terribad calls to remove defense builds from sPvP so a big no from me here. They killed sPvP, if they want to muck with gear sets here they will kill WvW. 

"Some defense in it" has to be the biggest understatement I've read about cele so far. It only has "some defense in it" the same way minstrel has "some support in it".

[willow.8209]

38 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

This and the only reason i can come up with is: if you fail to oneshot somebody with your one-trick-pony than it’s the others fault and that can’t be.

maybe i go roam with minstrel out of spite. xD (oh god i will need 20 minutes to clear a camp…)

that's a good idea. I was thinking this was the end of the end of WvW at least for me, and I still think it's the middle of the end.

But maybe I'll try something like that next. Out of protest tho. 

Edited September 15 by willow.8209

[willow.8209]

6 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

"Some defense in it" has to be the biggest understatement I've read about cele so far. It only has "some defense in it" the same way minstrel has "some support in it".

I think what they've done there is broadened the argument to include other gears--from sPvP as they said.

If cele were the best at everything no one would use berzerker or marauder gear. Or minstrel, for that matter. But they do, and no move was made to take Ferocity off cele. So it's pretty clear the issue is not that cele is fairly good, it's that only strike damage is being supported. 

Edited September 15 by willow.8209

[Hotride.2187]

28 minutes ago, willow.8209 said:

I think what they've done there is broadened the argument to include other gears--from sPvP as they said.

If cele were the best at everything no one would use berzerker or marauder gear. Or minstrel, for that matter. But they do, and no move was made to take Ferocity off cele. So it's pretty clear the issue is not that cele is fairly good, it's that only strike damage is being supported. 

You know what, whatever you say. I'm just happy this garbage stat set finally gets what it deserved. No point in reading an ever increasing amount of delusional comments as to why cele is somehow just build diversity and not an absolute trainwreck of a stat set that trivializes every aspect of the game where its available.

[CafPow.1542]

54 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

You know what, whatever you say. I'm just happy this garbage stat set finally gets what it deserved. No point in reading an ever increasing amount of delusional comments as to why cele is somehow just build diversity and not an absolute trainwreck of a stat set that trivializes every aspect of the game where its available.

What will be your next scapegoat tho? Am curious.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, Hotride.2187 said:

You know what, whatever you say. I'm just happy this garbage stat set finally gets what it deserved. No point in reading an ever increasing amount of delusional comments as to why cele is somehow just build diversity and not an absolute trainwreck of a stat set that trivializes every aspect of the game where its available.

So after Oct 8 when you lose fights to players mixing armor stats, does that mean mixing gears will be garbage and has to go? Only one stat set for all armor pieces? Oh! Maybe an amulet that can do that for you. Where have I seen that before?

 

To be clear, I'm not against mixing stats, and I think it's fun. I'm almost looking forward to that. I am against 2 things:

1. Making stats fundamentally different between PVE and WVW, so I can't use the same gear/equipment tabs. WVW is supposed to be designed to take my PVE gear with me into competitive play. If I can't do that because the stats work too differently (as they will for hybrid support builds), that's a design fail. Reducing all stats on celestial gear to bring it in line, instead of completely taking away 2 of its functions would work better.
2. Reducing hybrid/defensive stats to nerf tanky play. Some players like well-rounded playstyles over hectic glass cannon frenzies, or even require it if they can't play fast due to physical limitations. As long as viable options exist to help me build a tanky, effective, well-rounded character, I'll adapt. (While full power, condi, and support builds can still just slap on marauders, trailblazers, or minstrels gear and be done with it. 😏)

[Exzen.2976]

What on earth are you talking about. WvW is a completely different gamemode. You should have different builds and stats for both - its perfectly reasonable to expect that.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

8 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

What on earth are you talking about. WvW is a completely different gamemode. You should have different builds and stats for both - its perfectly reasonable to expect that.

A lot of people like to use their PVE gear in WVW, because equipment tabs and inventory space are limited. It's much less of an issue for builds, especially since both build tabs and build storage expansions are available from the Vault. If they add equipment tabs to the Vault after Oct 8, this will be much less of an issue. Actually, yeah, let's do that and I'll withdraw my game mode objection.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

So after Oct 8 when you lose fights to players mixing armor stats, does that mean mixing gears will be garbage and has to go? Only one stat set for all armor pieces? Oh! Maybe an amulet that can do that for you. Where have I seen that before?

First off: mixing stats will be inferior to running cele now, so that alone will mean there will be openings.

Sure good players will be able to mix stats, achieve similar performance (or even better) in some areas of their build versus cele at the expense of other areas (might be more offensive, but have far less sustain or vice versa).

The majority of players which complain that cele was not overpowered are very likely not part of that group. The players which played cele AND knew it was over-performing will adapt.

Quote

 

To be clear, I'm not against mixing stats, and I think it's fun. I'm almost looking forward to that. I am against 2 things:

1. Making stats fundamentally different between PVE and WVW, so I can't use the same gear/equipment tabs. WVW is supposed to be designed to take my PVE gear with me into competitive play. If I can't do that because the stats work too differently (as they will for hybrid support builds), that's a design fail. Reducing all stats on celestial gear to bring it in line, instead of completely taking away 2 of its functions would work better.
2. Reducing hybrid/defensive stats to nerf tanky play. Some players like well-rounded playstyles over hectic glass cannon frenzies, or even require it if they can't play fast due to physical limitations. As long as viable options exist to help me build a tanky, effective, well-rounded character, I'll adapt. (While full power, condi, and support builds can still just slap on marauders, trailblazers, or minstrels gear and be done with it. 😏)

 

I actually agree, unfortunately the goal for PvE and WvW is very different. Celestial was buffed for PvE to give players an all purpose gear set which outperforms all other gear for inexperienced players. So it is unlikely that this will get reverted.

The difference here is: experienced players phase out more and more defensive stats in PvE, meaning they become essentially useless for most content. Celestial gear starts losing it's massive advantage when you make some of its stats "useless". The developers are essentially sacrificing players gaining understanding in the areas of build crafting for easier access to PvE content. The same does not apply to WvW.

As for 2: this game is not designed with master-of-all classes in mind. You are meant to be specialized. Hybrid builds by design need to give in multiple areas to become jack-of-all and master of none.

27 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

A lot of people like to use their PVE gear in WVW, because equipment tabs and inventory space are limited. It's much less of an issue for builds, especially since both build tabs and build storage expansions are available from the Vault. If they add equipment tabs to the Vault after Oct 8, this will be much less of an issue. Actually, yeah, let's do that and I'll withdraw my game mode objection.

This is actually an issue but then the question becomes: should game balance be done around a game mode, or around ease of access to gear?

The later is already massively pushed and easy enough by now. Exotic is pennies a dozen, even ascended gear is dime a dozen by now. The main issue is player experience lacking on new players to know what to go for and not waste resources on getting far more sets than needed.

For anyone complaining, there was a VERY long time where celestial did not have concentration and expertise, and just as other stat sets, it saw use in some roaming builds (most prevalent in ones which had innate high self boons, like celestial herald).  If you want to see where this nerf will lead (and it is a nerf, not a removal of a stats since some like to compare this to Spvp) just go back and read up on builds which where run in WvW before the buff was done.

EDIT: and some food for thought:

developer decisions are most likely guided by player data, not just whining on the forums (though one might lead to them checking the other). There is a good chance that the amount of celestial builds run in WvW just passed a critical mass which encouraged this change.

Edited September 15 by Cyninja.2954

[Gaiawolf.8261]

15 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

As for 2: this game is not designed with master-of-all classes in mind. You are meant to be specialized. Hybrid builds by design need to give in multiple areas to become jack-of-all and master of none.

I agree and disagree here. Master-of-all is not in the design, and it's not a reality anyway, so no problem there. But the game does very well in supporting hybrid jack-of-all, master-of-none builds with several stats, and celestial was undoubtedly queen among them for most builds. It's a very popular playstyle, in fact. The only place specialized builds are generally needed are in instanced PVE.

Quote

This is actually an issue but then the question becomes: should game balance be done around a game mode, or around ease of access to gear?

There's plenty of design space for both. Making equipment tabs only available per character has long been a sore issue for many players. Account wide equipment expansions would go a long way to broaden that design space. The ship may have sailed on that one, but additional equipment tabs in the Vault is a viable workaround. Reducing the numbers on celestial stats, instead of changing functionality between modes is another possible solution.

I agree with everything else you wrote.

Edited September 15 by Gaiawolf.8261

[RazieL.5684]

13 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

given that they want their support ele to deal as much damage as a glass cannon when reflecting projectiles from a glass cannon

oof was that your attempt to sound smart for when i pointed out that reflecting deadeyes' malicious judgement is broken and does 140 damage (with any build, idk where you got support ele from but yeah) and you defended it as some kind of ~11000% multiplier... big oof... thanks for proving me right for everything though that was nice of you...

 

on topic: imho the stats that should have been removed are concentration and healing power idk why expertise had to get cut as it has nothing to do with the "oMg ImMoRtAl CeLe" if you cut the concentration to lower the boons and the healing power to lower the sustain and suddenly cele loses its sustain