Should Winds of Disenchantment Be Removed From WvW?

[Orthonen.9470]

I personally feel really strong about this since fights don't feel like fights anymore, it mostly just feels like whichever blob has more winds of disenchantment wins the battles. I could list a number of reasons to want to do this, and a number of reasons not to, however take your pick.

[bq pd.2148]

winds is not the problem, enchantmant collapse with not ICD is tho.

[Klipso.8653]

No, removing any stat type, or class ability will open the door to the watering down of WvW to a sPvP level of cookie cutter terribleness.

WvW gives us unrestricted PvP, you can run ANY stats and use ALL your class spells. WvW is not meant to be fair, and that's what makes it fun.

[Lonecap.4105]

Can we get OP removed from WvW instead? Seriously... just move better. Bubbles are good for WvW. The strategy to WvW is all about good movement, and mindgames.

[Orthonen.9470]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Can we get OP removed from WvW instead? Seriously... just move better. Bubbles are good for WvW. The strategy to WvW is all about good movement, and mindgames.

You haven't been confronted with the seven consecutively placed winds on a zerg. Not even two dodge rolls can get you out of that. And I'm fine with leaving WvW, means you have less people to fight and adds more to boring gameplay.

[grifflyman.8102]

@Aridon.8362 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Can we get OP removed from WvW instead? Seriously... just move better. Bubbles are good for WvW. The strategy to WvW is all about good movement, and mindgames.

You haven't been confronted with the seven consecutively placed winds on a zerg. Not even two dodge rolls can get you out of that. And I'm fine with leaving WvW, means you have less people to fight and adds more to boring gameplay.

Higher populated servers are always going to take advantage of running the meta into the ground. A simple solution to a lot of the AoE trash in this game would be giving a high cool down skill that dispels area affect/ground skills. There would be a lot more play involved in holding back certain skills with the threat of it being dispelled.

[Lonecap.4105]

@Aridon.8362 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Can we get OP removed from WvW instead? Seriously... just move better. Bubbles are good for WvW. The strategy to WvW is all about good movement, and mindgames.

You haven't been confronted with the seven consecutively placed winds on a zerg. Not even two dodge rolls can get you out of that. And I'm fine with leaving WvW, means you have less people to fight and adds more to boring gameplay.

That's a very well coordinated attack. Were the numbers even? What were your spellbreakers doing? Was the commander on discord? There's many variables to this.

[GottFaust.5297]

@MUDse.7623 said:winds is not the problem, enchantmant collapse with not ICD is tho.

Nah, Enchantment Collapse isn't an issue either.

The problem is the interaction between Enchantment Collapse, Loss Aversion, and Winds all together. Individually none of them are OP. Strong, yes, but not overpowered. Even any combination of two is completely fine. The issue arises when all three are put together. The idea of dealing obscene dps to 50 targets while also removing all boons from them and actively punishing additional boons being reapplied by removal and direct damage all while giving the caster infinite adrenaline to spam bursts is a bit much. Denying boons to 10 targets and stripping boons from 50 targets in an area is fine. Damaging and granting adrenaline while stripping boons is fine. The combination is a bit much.

[Lonecap.4105]

@GottFaust.5297 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:winds is not the problem, enchantmant collapse with not ICD is tho.

Nah, Enchantment Collapse isn't an issue either.

The problem is the interaction between Enchantment Collapse, Loss Aversion, and Winds all together. Individually none of them are OP. Strong, yes, but not overpowered. Even any combination of two is completely fine. The issue arises when all three are put together. The idea of dealing obscene dps to 50 targets while also removing all boons from them and actively punishing additional boons being reapplied by removal and direct damage all while giving the caster infinite adrenaline to spam bursts is a bit much. Denying boons to 10 targets and stripping boons from 50 targets in an area is fine. Damaging and granting adrenaline while stripping boons is fine. The combination is a bit much.

It hits for like 250 and can't crit. Excess adrenaline doesn't do anything. Loss aversion simply lets you tag kills if things go bad.

[GottFaust.5297]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@GottFaust.5297 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:winds is not the problem, enchantmant collapse with not ICD is tho.

Nah, Enchantment Collapse isn't an issue either.

The problem is the interaction between Enchantment Collapse, Loss Aversion, and Winds all together. Individually none of them are OP. Strong, yes, but not overpowered. Even any combination of two is completely fine. The issue arises when all three are put together. The idea of dealing obscene dps to 50 targets while also removing all boons from them and actively punishing additional boons being reapplied by removal and direct damage all while giving the caster infinite adrenaline to spam bursts is a bit much. Denying boons to 10 targets and stripping boons from 50 targets in an area is fine. Damaging and granting adrenaline while stripping boons is fine. The combination is a bit much.

It hits for like 250 and can't crit. Excess adrenaline doesn't do anything. Loss aversion simply lets you tag kills if things go bad.

A full power SB will tick for ~600 per boon per target per tick. Combine this with unwary enemies stacking boons near active domes and I've seen power-built SBs hit over 600k DPS with just Winds.

[Ferus.3165]

@GottFaust.5297 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@GottFaust.5297 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:winds is not the problem, enchantmant collapse with not ICD is tho.

Nah, Enchantment Collapse isn't an issue either.

The problem is the interaction between Enchantment Collapse, Loss Aversion, and Winds all together. Individually none of them are OP. Strong, yes, but not overpowered. Even any combination of two is completely fine. The issue arises when all three are put together. The idea of dealing obscene dps to 50 targets while also removing all boons from them and actively punishing additional boons being reapplied by removal and direct damage all while giving the caster infinite adrenaline to spam bursts is a bit much. Denying boons to 10 targets and stripping boons from 50 targets in an area is fine. Damaging and granting adrenaline while stripping boons is fine. The combination is a bit much.

It hits for like 250 and can't crit. Excess adrenaline doesn't do anything. Loss aversion simply lets you tag kills if things go bad.

A full power SB will tick for ~600 per boon per target per tick. Combine this with unwary enemies stacking boons near active domes and I've seen power-built SBs hit over 600k DPS with just Winds.

sry that is just wrong. with ~2600 power on my sb it does ~280 dmg and can't even crit. or in other words it's useless for anything else than those zerg fights combined with the gm trait and yellow bubble.Even with full might stacks you get barely over 300 dmg. Assume you remove 7 boons of a target, that is measly 2100 dmg. That's 1 stack of burning from a condi build for ~4 secs.

[Lahmia.2193]

Winds destroyed the boring invincible meleeball meta. I am thankful for winds.

[Sovereign.1093]

no. warriors are good again =)

[GottFaust.5297]

@Ferus.3165 said:

@GottFaust.5297 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@GottFaust.5297 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:winds is not the problem, enchantmant collapse with not ICD is tho.

Nah, Enchantment Collapse isn't an issue either.

The problem is the interaction between Enchantment Collapse, Loss Aversion, and Winds all together. Individually none of them are OP. Strong, yes, but not overpowered. Even any combination of two is completely fine. The issue arises when all three are put together. The idea of dealing obscene dps to 50 targets while also removing all boons from them and actively punishing additional boons being reapplied by removal and direct damage all while giving the caster infinite adrenaline to spam bursts is a bit much. Denying boons to 10 targets and stripping boons from 50 targets in an area is fine. Damaging and granting adrenaline while stripping boons is fine. The combination is a bit much.

It hits for like 250 and can't crit. Excess adrenaline doesn't do anything. Loss aversion simply lets you tag kills if things go bad.

A full power SB will tick for ~600 per boon per target per tick. Combine this with unwary enemies stacking boons near active domes and I've seen power-built SBs hit over 600k DPS with just Winds.

sry that is just wrong. with ~2600 power on my sb it does ~280 dmg and can't even crit. or in other words it's useless for anything else than those zerg fights combined with the gm trait and yellow bubble.Even with full might stacks you get barely over 300 dmg. Assume you remove 7 boons of a target, that is measly 2100 dmg. That's 1 stack of burning from a condi build for ~4 secs.

Deny what you will, I'm only quoting numbers that I, myself, have seen directly. You seem to be forgetting things like stacking signets, vulnerability, food, % damage traits, and the like.

Lest you forget, however: I'm all for winds doing what it does now in terms of shutting down boons, even over the area and number of targets that it does. I'm just not for it topping the damage charts while it does it.

[Vova.2640]

You can't just ask Anet to remove a skill altogether.Yes, winds is a ridiculous and broken skill, and it needs to be address, especially it's interaction with enchantment collapse.But straight up removing it is a bad idea.

[Cambeleg.7632]

Removed? No.

Nerfed? Of course.

It's stupid to see a blob with 15-20 warriors just for the shit of spamming WoDs like no tomorrow. The skill needs to be modified somehow for keeping its use without becoming the environment in a Spam Wars.

[BassHunteR.7246]

stfu. learn to push.retards want to blindly dive into enemy team... gets screwed and wanna come cry.....

[Lonecap.4105]

@GottFaust.5297 said:

@Ferus.3165 said:

@GottFaust.5297 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@GottFaust.5297 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:winds is not the problem, enchantmant collapse with not ICD is tho.

Nah, Enchantment Collapse isn't an issue either.

The problem is the interaction between Enchantment Collapse, Loss Aversion, and Winds all together. Individually none of them are OP. Strong, yes, but not overpowered. Even any combination of two is completely fine. The issue arises when all three are put together. The idea of dealing obscene dps to 50 targets while also removing all boons from them and actively punishing additional boons being reapplied by removal and direct damage all while giving the caster infinite adrenaline to spam bursts is a bit much. Denying boons to 10 targets and stripping boons from 50 targets in an area is fine. Damaging and granting adrenaline while stripping boons is fine. The combination is a bit much.

It hits for like 250 and can't crit. Excess adrenaline doesn't do anything. Loss aversion simply lets you tag kills if things go bad.

A full power SB will tick for ~600 per boon per target per tick. Combine this with unwary enemies stacking boons near active domes and I've seen power-built SBs hit over 600k DPS with just Winds.

sry that is just wrong. with ~2600 power on my sb it does ~280 dmg and can't even crit. or in other words it's useless for anything else than those zerg fights combined with the gm trait and yellow bubble.Even with full might stacks you get barely over 300 dmg. Assume you remove 7 boons of a target, that is measly 2100 dmg. That's 1 stack of burning from a condi build for ~4 secs.

Deny what you will, I'm only quoting numbers that I, myself, have seen directly. You seem to be forgetting things like stacking signets, vulnerability, food, % damage traits, and the like.

Lest you forget, however: I'm all for winds doing what it does now in terms of shutting down boons, even over the area and number of targets that it does. I'm just not for it topping the damage charts while it does it.

That's absurd. That damage isn't coming from Winds. I play full zerk Spellbreaker with offhand axe and let me tell you, even with a bubble and axe 5 to the face with all the best food money can buy, you will never see 600k damage unless you're in an absurdly huge, incredibly long fight, against horrible horrible players. So you're either lying, or either you or arcdps is wrong.

[Justine.6351]

Just knock it down to,

5 target5sec duration60sec recharge

and see what needs to change from there if at all.

[Choppy.4183]

Winds is the hard counter for boon meta. It should stay and people should get better.

[ThunderPanda.1872]

Maybe a slightly smaller radius, but that's all i would want to see. Removing it will make spellbreakers crap again

[OriOri.8724]

@grifflyman.8102 said:

@Aridon.8362 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Can we get OP removed from WvW instead? Seriously... just move better. Bubbles are good for WvW. The strategy to WvW is all about good movement, and mindgames.

You haven't been confronted with the seven consecutively placed winds on a zerg. Not even two dodge rolls can get you out of that. And I'm fine with leaving WvW, means you have less people to fight and adds more to boring gameplay.

Higher populated servers are always going to take advantage of running the meta into the ground. A simple solution to a lot of the AoE trash in this game would be giving a high cool down skill that dispels area affect/ground skills. There would be a lot more play involved in holding back certain skills with the threat of it being dispelled.

Stuff of this nature will never be balanced unless it affects both your team and the other. Banning all AoE effects would be great at getting rid of WoD,but in the end it would come down to whichever team had the most instances of that particular skill, and it would be the same situation as it is now.

[Sylvyn.4750]

@Lahmia.2193 said:Winds destroyed the boring invincible meleeball meta. I am thankful for winds.

You're right...now we're back to boring pirate-ship meta...and there was much rejoicing.

[etiolate.9185]

More Winds than the other group can win you some fights, but they have to be well placed and somewhat organized. Wasting Winds can destroy you just as easily as not having enough Winds.

I don't think it should be removed of course. Game would fall right back into a boon ball meta. Maybe an ICD on Enchant Collap.

I am curious how much the alacrity sigil comes into play. The increase in alacrity in the game mode via the sigil means more Winds more often, along with other long CD skills.

[hunkamania.7561]

There's so much boon application in the game how can you not have it? It'll turn back into the HoT meta all over again without it.