The next balance patch priorities should be:

[Vieux P.1238]

@tartarus.1082 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@tartarus.1082 said:I agree mirage condi burst needs to be gutted, but I don't see where you're coming from with power.

Unlike condi power is predictable, has to deal with passive procs, and stability. Moreover, unlike condi it doesn't have the exceptional sustained 1v1 potential and needs to reset after a burst.

I disagree!!! . I main a mesmer & i'm not the only one that can say that the way it was set up before tickle targets unless you followed the usual 1 meta build. Mesmer can not down a good player in short time no matter what. Unless playing that old & tired GS power build. For mesmers for once, confusion in pvp is up to par & offers a few new builds other then just GS Click click shatter F1. & i'm not sorry to say but you all need to stop making your glassy builds with out any real condi cleanse. I see it all the time lately. You all want it EZ & to 1-3 sec kill your target but can't cuz of the sustain. Meaning you actually got to skill kill the mesmer & since you havent set up any condi cleans you die from all the stacks of confusion cuz your spamming what ever you can. You all need to actually play smart & fix your build in consequence. You'l be surprised on how less of a problem mirage can be.

I main a Mesmer to lmao and mirage condi can easily burst down players with condi and can daze lock any cleanse skills to maintain the ticks. Moreover even after bursting mirage still has enough cds to reapply and can disengage with its numerous defensive cds.

Moreover condi burst was around before pof, except it took effort to set up a killshot moa burst that could still be outplayed. So idk why you're acting like condi Mesmer has been some marginalized spec and not a dominant meta pick for the last 4 or so seasons.

Mirage can do way more damage than a condi chrono, with a fraction of the effort and a variety of survival cool downs.

Moreover, thiefs mobility is constantly cited as a reason for why it is a subpar 1v1 spec. Why should mirage have similar mobility with just as much 1v1 potential.

Also literally everyone uses cleanse when they can. However there are specs that legit can't spec for burst cleanse like revanent.

At this point in time everything is over performing and is in some form of extreme. Mirage has top tier damage and mobility with a variety of defensive cds, making them a highly mobile duelist. Firebrand has extreme sustain. Scourge at the very least is toxic design that shouldn't have been implemented.

I still don't agree. Top tier you say. Arguable! Yes it does do damage now & thank God it's part of the classes that can hold it's own by dishing out more damage. Pre-patch was just ridiculous. Why do you think the love? But as i said before, players will pretty soon build around it. Atm, To many glassy builds that just wants to one shot ppl. If you miss you an EZ target. That's all i have to say.

[Arheundel.6451]

@kappa.2036 said:HIGH PRIORITY

• Nerf mirage condition burst. Reduce the ability to cover confusion with other conditions. Nerf Elusive Mind.
• Reduce firebrand support capabilities since the spec is overshadowing every other support.
• Scourge corruption should be reduced. Sand shade skills needs an animation - no more insta casts with no tells please. Increase the support capabilities and survivability of the spec.
• Reduce slightly holosmith damage. Remove the passive Elixir S from traits, or increase the cooldown of the trait. Damage via dodges while under the effect of elixir S should not be possible.
• Buff revenant condi cleanses in general. Rework renegade and make this spec competitive in pvp, reduce energy costs, increase survivability.
• Deadeye needs more group utility. Also incentivize the melee playstyle and add some survivability.
• Buff weaver sword damage and increase the survivability of the spec. It needs a more defined role - right now it's an almost good 1v1 spec but other 1v1 classes can offer something more like mesmer-portal / warrior-boonrip / druid-heals&stealth.
• Reduce druid self-sustain and increase the AoE support potential to bring it on par with firebrand and tempest.
• Rework soulbeast beastmode skills/mechanic and give a role to this spec in pvp.

I will continue to edit the main post based on community opinions. If you do not agree with what I wrote, try to be as precise as possible in order to change/ add more details to the main post. :)Clearly the balance team doesn't know what do to. The next balance patch is crucial and will determine if pvp will die completely in this game, so let's help them :)

January balance patch is our only hope.

-Mirage: It's a duellist spec...a nerf to elusive mind would do the trick, we can't delete the threat level from the class...we want balance-Firebrand it's pure support, it does 0 dmg and should be rewarded with superior support respect to the others, it's the other specs that need different mechanics to make them more appealing; so far druid support is strong and can be taken alongside firebrand...tempest just fall short as it can't compete ( and shouldn't) with firebrand; would they buff aurashare mechanic...we would see a different type of support-Power herald is very strong against other power specs devoid of boon rip, their only weakness is condition dmg..remove that and we get another 100% efficiency duellist...that's not balance-Weaver problem is not damage...it's its inability to keep pressure on kiting foes and complete lack of defensive mechanics like short medium CD blocks or dmg reduction at melee range..basically ways to reduce incoming dmg other than dodge/heal

[Apolo.5942]

Conditions need to be NORMALIZED.

• SINGLE player conditions stack on DURATION.
• MULTIPLE players conditions stack on INTENSITY.
• REBALANCE duration, damage and aplication.

And reevaluate from there.

[Cynz.9437]

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@tartarus.1082 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@tartarus.1082 said:I agree mirage condi burst needs to be gutted, but I don't see where you're coming from with power.

Unlike condi power is predictable, has to deal with passive procs, and stability. Moreover, unlike condi it doesn't have the exceptional sustained 1v1 potential and needs to reset after a burst.

I disagree!!! . I main a mesmer & i'm not the only one that can say that the way it was set up before tickle targets unless you followed the usual 1 meta build. Mesmer can not down a good player in short time no matter what. Unless playing that old & tired GS power build. For mesmers for once, confusion in pvp is up to par & offers a few new builds other then just GS Click click shatter F1. & i'm not sorry to say but you all need to stop making your glassy builds with out any real condi cleanse. I see it all the time lately. You all want it EZ & to 1-3 sec kill your target but can't cuz of the sustain. Meaning you actually got to skill kill the mesmer & since you havent set up any condi cleans you die from all the stacks of confusion cuz your spamming what ever you can. You all need to actually play smart & fix your build in consequence. You'l be surprised on how less of a problem mirage can be.

I main a Mesmer to lmao and mirage condi can easily burst down players with condi and can daze lock any cleanse skills to maintain the ticks. Moreover even after bursting mirage still has enough cds to reapply and can disengage with its numerous defensive cds.

Moreover condi burst was around before pof, except it took effort to set up a killshot moa burst that could still be outplayed. So idk why you're acting like condi Mesmer has been some marginalized spec and not a dominant meta pick for the last 4 or so seasons.

Mirage can do way more damage than a condi chrono, with a fraction of the effort and a variety of survival cool downs.

Moreover, thiefs mobility is constantly cited as a reason for why it is a subpar 1v1 spec. Why should mirage have similar mobility with just as much 1v1 potential.

Also literally everyone uses cleanse when they can. However there are specs that legit can't spec for burst cleanse like revanent.

At this point in time everything is over performing and is in some form of extreme. Mirage has top tier damage and mobility with a variety of defensive cds, making them a highly mobile duelist. Firebrand has extreme sustain. Scourge at the very least is toxic design that shouldn't have been implemented.

I still don't agree. Top tier you say. Arguable! Yes it does do damage now & thank God it's part of the classes that can hold it's own by dishing out more damage. Pre-patch was just ridiculous. Why do you think the love? But as i said before, players will pretty soon build around it. Atm,

To many glassy builds that just wants to one shot ppl. If you miss you an EZ target.

That's all i have to say.

Total bs. Most meta builds are per definition condi-cleanse builds. All my utilities and quite few traits/sigils are designed around condi cleanse, it is still hardly enough if it all in most cases. Some classes also cannot run bunker amulet and still be viable. Ever thought about it? Ah yeah, why would you. You don't need to worry about it since you can chain evades for ages and can't be pinned down with CCs.

[NeedCoffee.1402]

I like everything the op said. Except 1 thing.SB needs to be buffed. FC doesn't do enough.More Condi xfer, and keep the current CD. Or go back to origional CD and keep the Condi care. Or increase damage.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

I think the core specializations could use some love.And a bit more core health/armor would be very welcome for my Elly (and maybe others as well, but I only play Elly) in PvP with all high-powered attacks out there.

[choovanski.5462]

all i want, personally is the adrenaline nerfs to berserker fixed.

just have going into berserk count as spending 3 bars for traits. it makes sense, you have built up & spent 3 bars. have it effect traits. make berserker viable again. bring my main back to meta.

oh & yeah, all the obvious things the OP said too.having scourge & mirage nerfed enough so scrapper can come back would be great.firebrand needs to be rebalanced with tempest & centaur rev, so all three are viable supports.

basically i want all of the elites to fill different roles, but to all be good picks for a team. but selfishly, because i play it- i want berserker fixed & back in meta.

[ArthurDent.9538]

@NeedCoffee.1402 said:I like everything the op said. Except 1 thing.SB needs to be buffed. FC doesn't do enough.More Condi xfer, and keep the current CD. Or go back to origional CD and keep the Condi care. Or increase damage.

@NeedCoffee.1402 said:

SB needs to be buffed. FC doesn't do enough.

But full counter already does basically everything, what more can you add to it? Protection, hard cc, applies lots of condis, damage, damage avoidance, stability, resistance, adrenal health, berserker's power, cleansing ire, unblockable. I suppose it could also be undodgeable, and go off even if it doesn't get hit, would that be enough?

[Morwath.9817]

@choovanski.5462 said:all i want, personally is the adrenaline nerfs to berserker fixed.

just have going into berserk count as spending 3 bars for traits. it makes sense, you have built up & spent 3 bars. have it effect traits. make berserker viable again. bring my main back to meta.

oh & yeah, all the obvious things the OP said too.having scourge & mirage nerfed enough so scrapper can come back would be great.firebrand needs to be rebalanced with tempest & centaur rev, so all three are viable supports.

basically i want all of the elites to fill different roles, but to all be good picks for a team. but selfishly, because i play it- i want berserker fixed & back in meta.

Ooo, Quaggan agrees with this one.

[Ivantreil.3092]

@kappa.2036 said:

• Reduce slightly holosmith damage. Remove the passive Elixir S from traits, or increase the cooldown of the trait. Damage via dodges while under the effect of elixir S should not be possible.

I understand how frustrating can be to see an Engi slipping away with double Elixir S, but you have to understand that it's the fundamental survival base of any Engineer build nowadays, removing Elixir S passive isn't not gonna only Nerf Holosmith, it would be a nerf the whole class in general, EVERY, ENGI, BUILD, NEEDS IT! if you wanna stand a chance!

Regarding to the damage of Holosmith, slight damage nerfs are fine for me, no problem.

Minetrail might be annoying, but we aren't picking it because we wanna play mines, but because it's the only Grandmaster trait in Explosives that makes sense to pick, the other traits are trash in comparison.

[otto.5684]

@Ivantreil.3092 said:

@kappa.2036 said:

• Reduce slightly holosmith damage. Remove the passive Elixir S from traits, or increase the cooldown of the trait. Damage via dodges while under the effect of elixir S should not be possible.

I understand how frustrating can be to see an Engi slipping away with double Elixir S, but you have to understand that it's the fundamental survival base of any Engineer build nowadays, removing Elixir S passive isn't not gonna only Nerf Holosmith, it would be a nerf the whole class in general, EVERY, ENGI, BUILD, NEEDS IT! if you wanna stand a chance!

Regarding to the damage of Holosmith, slight damage nerfs are fine for me, no problem.

Minetrail might be annoying, but we aren't picking it because we wanna play mines, but because it's the only Grandmaster trait in Explosives that makes sense to pick, the other traits are trash in comparison.

Honestly, all the passive automatic defenses should be removed in favor of active ones for all classes. Not just engi. It is incredibly terrible design.

[jcbroe.4329]

Stepping out of the micro-examination of the topic to a conceptual level: power creep has grown way out of hand, to the point that every meta build is performing in extremes. Extreme damage, extreme healing, extreme mobility. Every meta build is performing a multiple sets and/or subsets of those topics.

I wouldn't even classify them as specifically balance issues. At this point, it's fundamentally design issues. Scourge and Firebrand and Spellbreaker and etc, none of these classes/builds are performing above their design expectations or limitations.

Both the HoT and PoF specs were just given extreme tools in order to shift the flavor of the gane environment, and in doing so the competitive atmosphere is an environment of extremes in which the devs, in lieu of the lack of authority to decide to scale back that environment, have to continue to add to those extremes in order to create an even remotely balanced atmosphere.

Not that it's an agreeable situation, but my perspective is that this is the most likely scenario.

[Maugetarr.6823]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Maugetarr.6823 said:I could get behind removing the burst as it currently exists from Deadeye Rifle, but it would need some big reworks to the other skills to offer utility, CC, and strong sustained damage. Standing could be shorter range than pistols, but with more sustained damage and evasive skills, while instead of entirely rooting, kneeling could be a -66% change to movement speed. Death's Judgement could be cut down to 1.5 multiplier base, +10% damage per malice stack(2.25@5 and 2.55@7) with a 0.5 second daze, 1.5 seconds quickness and slow with a +20% duration to both per stack of malice to make the burst more like a bullet time attack, extending the burst over DJ+Auto Attacks rather than loading it all into DJ.

I want to emphasize that as compensation for lowering the burst, both offensive and defensive sustain would need to be increased.

The problem with this approach is it made too close to other weaponsets. The suggestion of "adding more utility" is simply too vague. What utility? if the utility added akin to that of d/p why play one over the other?

Weaponsets should play very differently. While Rifle still needs a bit of work , that we give up mobility for that ROOT does not mean it a bad thing. If it made more evasive and having more mobility then we are just playing another s/d with range. We have evasive sets in s/p ,d/p ,DrD specs ,s/d and even d/d condi. I personally like the concept of OK you give up a bit of that mobility and evasiveness with the RIFLE (Albeit i think Deaths retreat should be 1 ini less) but in return you will pack a punch at range , easily avoided punch but a punch that will hurt.

IF damage lowered on DJ then the main change they have to make to that skill is making it have LESS in the way of tells. It will also mean more damage to AA and again in game terms begins to play out very much like another weaponset which will lead to "I took 10k damage in a split second with no warning" type complainst over "I took 20k in damage from a single DJ" complaints.

If utility added then IMO it can not be a duplicate of the utility that we get out of d/p or weaponst X/X. It has to be unique to the set meaning Daze not so great an idea or more CC as we have that covered with headshot and all our immobs. (P/x 2 s/x 2) When I look at "utility" I am looking for stuff that would be unique to rifle such as things like "Grappling shot" whrerein you can pull an enemy off point or adding AOE reveal to spotters shot. I am not saying these examples should be the utility one adds, I am merely using examples of utility that might give more reasons to use this set.

In summary , I personally support Rifle more in form and function as it currently exists over making it into a knockoff of what other weapons provided with added range. I am not suggesting that you are advocating such either but simply pointing out that when a weapons utility or play works too much like another sets utility or gameplay , the result will be to always use the one which does those things best.

I did do a full writeup that I didn't post here because this is a general thread (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19878/rifle-rework-ideas#latest). Basically piercing would set it apart from other sets and the damage would be sustained instead of burst, differentiating it from pistols. It would also offer 2 different playstyles in one weapon to be able to choose which mode works better for what the situation calls for. I think one of the pitfalls with the current DJ also is that 3RB overlaps too much with it. Basically if you wait the 8-10 seconds for a fully charged, untraited DJ, you're going to hit with a 2.8 multiplier. Alternatively, you could take BQoBK and Unforgiving, and hit with a total of 2.85 multiplier between cursed bullet and 3RB, unblockable with a stun, generating 9 might, and corrupting 2 boons, without the laser beam tell, right at the beginning of the fight. Yes, you can do both, because the attack scenarios I just laid out aren't mutually exclusive, but DJ is a largely redundant skill as I see it. That's why I want it to give quickness, slow, and daze because it will boost the outgoing sustained damage and deliver some control effects aiding your teammates in a group fight in PvP and helping with breakbars in PvE.

Your point that my ideas could make it overlap with other weapon sets is valid though. My ideas might do that, so I see where you're coming from.

[DalinarKholin.6283]

Mirage condition nerf. Scourge boon corruption needs a nerf. A nerf to Firebrand support or else a boost to other support specs to rough equality with them. I also feel like full counter is still an over budget ability for warriors that needs to be looked at again.

[La Sirena.6873]

@"DalinarKholin.6283" said:Mirage condition nerf. Scourge boon corruption needs a nerf. A nerf to Firebrand support or else a boost to other support specs to rough equality with them. I also feel like full counter is still an over budget ability for warriors that needs to be looked at again.

my first post in a long time.Disagree on all requests.I play since beta of gw2 and been playing berserk and Condi for that time. Also do not forget how fast you went down to all ranged power creep 1 hitting you back in the days. That´s the worst in WvW because there might be 5-10 persons targetting you+turrets a.s.o. condi atleast lets you in some way react, if all are power youre already down.Guess what even when they put condis back to after beta status wher you had very low bleeding tickspeople would still complain because its not about the burst but the mechanics.Mirage could still evade lots of Dmg and still Maruder you to death like Thief.Scourge build is built about destroing boons and guess what it would take a complete change over to not do so and to be still viableE-spec it has to be ramped up in dmg. Also like all builds it is not spamming condition but using your skills like every other class and build.These 2 classes are really fun to play do not destroy them because you do not know how they work.I have all classes so I can test every build and class to understand the mechanics, so I can come up with a counter.All comments I have read in multiple threads lets me think that many of the complaints comes from lack of knowledge of classes itself."My wish would be to split balance from WvW and SPvp off from Pve" since with all your whining you are slowly destroying this game.Pve Scourge got 3 class related nerfs and the overall condi nerf, the shade adjustment was ok, but all the rest is kitten.All condi builds in Pve feel slow and awful now because of l2play issues.The slow ramp up dmg is ok for pvp but in pve where all new bosses have phases (and condi gets cleared) and content gets moreDifficult for the hardcore requests.All fractals became ridicolous more difficult because of condi dmg reduction.You can still do them but it feels more like chore(work) now and less like fun.The only way to balance it right it to give more Hp in pvp, hard cc, cleanses and stability to all classes.So than it would be able to built counterbuilds.And one last tip to all whiners try to come up with ur own builds and test them with different setups and don`t use those metasites copy paste (at least adapt the builds).And for godsake get some life and toughness in your build this is no dmg race on a dps golem. And do not forget a cleanse skill and traits, this aint press 1 to win.Sry it sounds rude but it is not meant to be. ThisNerf everything is starting to invade the whole forum and is getting annoying.Just my 2 cents and last post.Have a nice christmas

[tartarus.1082]

@choovanski.5462 said:all i want, personally is the adrenaline nerfs to berserker fixed.

just have going into berserk count as spending 3 bars for traits. it makes sense, you have built up & spent 3 bars. have it effect traits. make berserker viable again. bring my main back to meta.

oh & yeah, all the obvious things the OP said too.having scourge & mirage nerfed enough so scrapper can come back would be great.firebrand needs to be rebalanced with tempest & centaur rev, so all three are viable supports.

basically i want all of the elites to fill different roles, but to all be good picks for a team. but selfishly, because i play it- i want berserker fixed & back in meta.

I completely agree. Ironically it felt like there was more build diversity for the different roles before pof dropped.

[kappa.2036]

@La Sirena.6873 said:

@"DalinarKholin.6283" said:Mirage condition nerf. Scourge boon corruption needs a nerf. A nerf to Firebrand support or else a boost to other support specs to rough equality with them. I also feel like full counter is still an over budget ability for warriors that needs to be looked at again.

my first post in a long time.Disagree on all requests.I play since beta of gw2 and been playing berserk and Condi for that time. Also do not forget how fast you went down to all ranged power creep 1 hitting you back in the days. That´s the worst in WvW because there might be 5-10 persons targetting you+turrets a.s.o. condi atleast lets you in some way react, if all are power youre already down.Guess what even when they put condis back to after beta status wher you had very low bleeding tickspeople would still complain because its not about the burst but the mechanics.Mirage could still evade lots of Dmg and still Maruder you to death like Thief.Scourge build is built about destroing boons and guess what it would take a complete change over to not do so and to be still viableE-spec it has to be ramped up in dmg. Also like all builds it is not spamming condition but using your skills like every other class and build.These 2 classes are really fun to play do not destroy them because you do not know how they work.I have all classes so I can test every build and class to understand the mechanics, so I can come up with a counter.All comments I have read in multiple threads lets me think that many of the complaints comes from lack of knowledge of classes itself."My wish would be to split balance from WvW and SPvp off from Pve" since with all your whining you are slowly destroying this game.Pve Scourge got 3 class related nerfs and the overall condi nerf, the shade adjustment was ok, but all the rest is kitten.All condi builds in Pve feel slow and awful now because of l2play issues.The slow ramp up dmg is ok for pvp but in pve where all new bosses have phases (and condi gets cleared) and content gets moreDifficult for the hardcore requests.All fractals became ridicolous more difficult because of condi dmg reduction.You can still do them but it feels more like chore(work) now and less like fun.The only way to balance it right it to give more Hp in pvp, hard cc, cleanses and stability to all classes.So than it would be able to built counterbuilds.And one last tip to all whiners try to come up with ur own builds and test them with different setups and don`t use those metasites copy paste (at least adapt the builds).And for godsake get some life and toughness in your build this is no dmg race on a dps golem. And do not forget a cleanse skill and traits, this aint press 1 to win.Sry it sounds rude but it is not meant to be. ThisNerf everything is starting to invade the whole forum and is getting annoying.Just my 2 cents and last post.Have a nice christmas

PoF introduced a lot of power creep. I personally believed that Arenanet was able to improve things in a matter of weeks, but unfortunately, i was wrong. After more than 3 months after the expansion, the same identical classes that were overperforming in the first weeks are dominating today in pvp and wvw. People are becoming toxic because they are unhappy. That's it. As you said, anet needs to split balance beetween pvp,wvw and pve.

[Arheundel.6451]

@kappa.2036 said:HIGH PRIORITY

• Nerf mirage condition burst. Reduce the ability to cover confusion with other conditions. Nerf Elusive Mind.
• Reduce firebrand support capabilities since the spec is overshadowing every other support.
• Scourge corruption should be reduced. Sand shade skills needs an animation - no more insta casts with no tells please. Increase the support capabilities and survivability of the spec.
• Reduce slightly holosmith damage. Remove the passive Elixir S from traits, or increase the cooldown of the trait. Damage via dodges while under the effect of elixir S should not be possible.
• Buff revenant condi cleanses in general. Rework renegade and make this spec competitive in pvp, reduce energy costs, increase survivability. Ventari rev support needs to be brought on par with firebrand and tempest.
• Deadeye needs more group utility. Also incentivize the melee playstyle and add some survivability.
• Buff weaver sword damage and increase the survivability of the spec through blocks/barriers/damage reduction. It needs a more defined role - right now it's an almost good 1v1 spec but other 1v1 classes can offer something more like mesmer-portal / warrior-boonrip / druid-heals&stealth.
• Reduce druid self-sustain and increase the AoE support potential to bring it on par with firebrand and tempest.
• Rework soulbeast beastmode skills/mechanic and give a role to this spec in pvp.
• Warrior role/efficency outside spellbreaker (core and berserker) needs to be improved.
• Conditions needs to be revisited around application/duration/damage where needed. Power creep in general needs to be toned down, including massive healing and mobility aswell.

I will continue to edit the main post based on community opinions. If you do not agree with what I wrote, try to be as precise as possible in order to change/ add more details to the main post. :)Clearly the balance team doesn't know what do to. The next balance patch is crucial and will determine if pvp will die completely in this game, so let's help them :)

January balance patch is our only hope.

What does make you think that warrior passive defense is balanced respect to engineer?....passive defy pain should be removed just as well-Full counter is overloaded

[GoZero.9708]

@otto.5684 said:Significantly reduce boon corruption. Nothing else matters if this is not addressed.

Quote for emphasis.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Well what it should be is nerfs to FB / scourge / mirage. Buffs for ele / rev. And a revert of the completely over the top nerfs to core builds from 12/2017.

Of course, the balance team doesn't actually care about balance and is instead just trying to sell the expansion by overtuning all of the pof specs that are easier to use. So we will probably see the exact opposite of this happening.

[Genesis.5169]

Adding more maps, And a new game mode.Maintaining proper balance in the game while not completely gutting condition damage which many on the forums want to do.Huge Ele buffs in pvp.

Increase the base stats of celestial gear to 520.

[Morwath.9817]

@Genesis.5169 said:

Increase the base stats of celestial gear to 420.

Ooo? What do you mean? Celestial has 460 of each basic stat.

[Genesis.5169]

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Genesis.5169 said:

Increase the base stats of celestial gear to 420.

Ooo? What do you mean? Celestial has 460 of each basic stat.

Meant to say 520 you got me before the edit.

[Ragion.2831]

People still think they can dictate changes. It pains me to see you guys go through the same struggles many before you have. People like Nemesis, Bhawb, B R A Z I L, Toker and Choxie.

Bhawb wrote books of analysis on Necro in particular because of how bad it was. The guy probably went insane with the amount of stuff he wrote when he did a study of the necro trait lines, but nothing came of it.

B R A Z I L also a necro main used to be the calm analyst that would do 4 man streams looking at the classes and builds. He eventually got tilted to point that his personality became extremely hostile.

Choxie used to do comedy vids of necro, he did a video on how the class kept getting mistreated in the patches. Now he is just straight up bored. Lucky for him, he wasnt a PvPer

The thief community went on a full on ingame protest when the class got destroyed some months before HoT. I imagine now they are satisfied though.

Many have done threads like this, it does not work. Once or maybe twice a year they would implement a change most were asking for, one change out of the 30 or so that the community agreed on. Please dont tilt yourselves with threads like this

[NeedCoffee.1402]

What does make you think that warrior passive defense is balanced respect to engineer?....passive defy pain should be removed just as well-Full counter is overloaded

Just stop. SB is garbage now. FC doesn't do enough compared to say current 2nd tier op holosmith that can do 5k + with a simple dodge.Ask any good war. Evenly matched skill SB losses to almost everything.