Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread

[Obtena.7952]

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So you're saying that all their solo runs were using an exploit? Interesting. I would love to see what they think of your claim.

Still, the same ideas are surfacing in this thread, and they are still as irrelevant as the first day someone told me I was being 'selfish' because I wasn't playing meta.

I am not saying that but when you use a dungeon that is notorious for being poorly designed and buggy as an example what did you expect to hear?

My point is that it wasn't the ONLY dungeon they soloed ...

[Vulf.3098]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So you're saying that all their solo runs were using an exploit? Interesting. I would love to see what they think of your claim.

Still, the same ideas are surfacing in this thread, and they are still as irrelevant as the first day someone told me I was being 'selfish' because I wasn't playing meta.

I am not saying that but when you use a dungeon that is notorious for being poorly designed and buggy as an example what did you expect to hear?

My point is that it wasn't the ONLY dungeon they soloed ...

Well dungeons in general are a poor metric to use. I mean there is a reason Anet abandoned that spaghetti mess of content.

[Yasi.9065]

Uhm, sorry to burst that bubble, but how can there be more than 100% boon uptime?

The reason for fractal meta isnt raid builds. Actually quite a bit changes are made to the builds compared to raid, and you can always easily spot the one guy that hasnt really grasped the difference between raids and fractals.

For example... usually its a harrier druid in raid, but because of attunement, you can drop concentration even further and go for more power (or condi). Personally, I always run with healtrap + trait because most t4 fractals have some form of condition spam. Then also I usually dont bother with warhorn regen and instead go for pet swap fury with 2 cc pets, freeing up my offhand for axe or gaining better weakness application (quickdraw on axe3 instead of warhorn) for longer fights.Chronos also can drop concentration for more dps. You can switch out berserker for a spellbreaker and free up chrono 3rd utility slot on most fractals.Powerdps are the best burst and especially shine on short phases. And they gain most from +dmg mechanics in fractals. Though what a lot of people dont realize... most lfg groups have at least 2 people simply not good enough... resulting in either slow cc, slow burst or < 100% boon uptime which ofc results in low dps... In that case its better to just go with a condidps setup for more easy playstyle and constant dps.

And then theres the other reason for powerdps meta in fractals. The builds are limited. If you put up a lfg for that setup, you only have to search for a chrono, buffdruid, bannerbot and 2 dh/weaver. The builds themselves are (or at least should be) somewhat fixed and you dont have to finetune things anymore. You know which player is responsible for which part of the gamemechanic. Fixed setups make lfg easier.

If you open up to everybody, you still need someone for removing boons, cc'ing, buffing, dps. But you would have to invest quite some time to make sure you have the needed roles filled for a smooth and fast run. And thats what daily t4 fractals are about. A smooth and fast run. Without time spent to tell players what they should bring to make that happen. Hence the kinda fixed powerdps meta.

Of course, nobody forces anyone to adhere to that meta. You can just make your own lfg open for everybody and muddle through. Might get lucky there and actually be faster. Or not. Its up to everybody.

But keep in mind. If you join someone else's lfg, YOU have to conform to the lfg. Joining a lfg group and wanting to enforce your wishes, then crying because you get kicked, thats really quite childish.

The beauty of fractals (and dungeons btw), is that you can either do them casual... and need more time. Or you can speedrun them, for which you need good players and an optimized setup. The distinction is in the lfg description of the group you join or create. Speedrunning doesnt have anything to do with raids btw, otherwise we would see more mirages in fractals.

[Obtena.7952]

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So you're saying that all their solo runs were using an exploit? Interesting. I would love to see what they think of your claim.

Still, the same ideas are surfacing in this thread, and they are still as irrelevant as the first day someone told me I was being 'selfish' because I wasn't playing meta.

I am not saying that but when you use a dungeon that is notorious for being poorly designed and buggy as an example what did you expect to hear?

My point is that it wasn't the ONLY dungeon they soloed ...

Well dungeons in general are a poor metric to use. I mean there is a reason Anet abandoned that spaghetti mess of content.

No, it wasn't a poor metric to use to assess meta builds because it was the only content in the game at the time where meta builds were relevant.

Raid/Fractal elitism is the SAME atttitudes that drove Dungeon elitism; optimized play. Well, not just optimized play, but the idea that optimized play is the only acceptable way of play that should be tolerated in the game. That's such crap ... but ... if there are people that wish to believe AND play with other people that believe the same thing, they should have the same rights to play how they want as anyone else. The big problem back then was that there wasn't any way to filter people, so the abuse of players with dislike ideas on how to play was significant.

[Vulf.3098]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So you're saying that all their solo runs were using an exploit? Interesting. I would love to see what they think of your claim.

Still, the same ideas are surfacing in this thread, and they are still as irrelevant as the first day someone told me I was being 'selfish' because I wasn't playing meta.

I am not saying that but when you use a dungeon that is notorious for being poorly designed and buggy as an example what did you expect to hear?

My point is that it wasn't the ONLY dungeon they soloed ...

Well dungeons in general are a poor metric to use. I mean there is a reason Anet abandoned that spaghetti mess of content.

No, it wasn't a poor metric to use to assess meta builds because it was the only content in the game at the time where meta builds were relevant.

Raid/Fractal elitism is the SAME atttitudes that drove Dungeon elitism; optimized play. Well, not just optimized play, but the idea that optimized play is the only acceptable way of play that should be tolerated in the game. That's such crap ... but ... if there are people that wish to believe AND play with other people that believe the same thing, they should have the same rights to play how they want as anyone else. The big problem back then was that there wasn't any way to filter people, so the abuse of players with dislike ideas on how to play was significant.

This exist in every game (some in smaller scales of course) and honestly there is very little you can do about it.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I think everyone participating in this discussion needs to go GOOGLE the definition of the word "Meta"

[Obtena.7952]

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So you're saying that all their solo runs were using an exploit? Interesting. I would love to see what they think of your claim.

Still, the same ideas are surfacing in this thread, and they are still as irrelevant as the first day someone told me I was being 'selfish' because I wasn't playing meta.

I am not saying that but when you use a dungeon that is notorious for being poorly designed and buggy as an example what did you expect to hear?

My point is that it wasn't the ONLY dungeon they soloed ...

Well dungeons in general are a poor metric to use. I mean there is a reason Anet abandoned that spaghetti mess of content.

No, it wasn't a poor metric to use to assess meta builds because it was the only content in the game at the time where meta builds were relevant.

Raid/Fractal elitism is the SAME atttitudes that drove Dungeon elitism; optimized play. Well, not just optimized play, but the idea that optimized play is the only acceptable way of play that should be tolerated in the game. That's such crap ... but ... if there are people that wish to believe AND play with other people that believe the same thing, they should have the same rights to play how they want as anyone else. The big problem back then was that there wasn't any way to filter people, so the abuse of players with dislike ideas on how to play was significant.

This exist in every game (some in smaller scales of course) and honestly there is very little you can do about it.

That's true. Anet has done what they can to alleviate this; provide a way for players to set their expectations prior to starting the instance on LFG. Still, it can be ignored and abused, but at that point, players police themselves.

[TexZero.7910]

I find it quite ironic that we're gonna call the people who wish to play how they want elitist....

It's not like anyone else cannot play fractals how they want and not join said groups if it twist their knickers the wrong way.

[Yasi.9065]

@"Obtena.7952" said:[...]Well, not just optimized play, but the idea that optimized play is the only acceptable way of play that should be tolerated in the game. [...]

Theres more than enough non-meta lfg-searches up each hour of the day to proof you wrong on that one. So I really dont understand what you are so up in arms about. You got kicked for trying to force your wishes on a lfg group? Is that it? Sorry, but if you dont like the lfg description of a group, dont join it. Simple as that.

Or is it really that you want to get into a speedrun but dont want to bring the build/profession/training needed for it? I noticed thats the problem of about 90% of all those raging against "meta" in whichever game or gamecontent. What you have to realize at that point though, is that nobody wants to carry someone else in speedruns. Be it because of lack of skill or lack of proper build. Thats just not the concept of speedruns.

Or maybe you think its ludicrous how people that dont even know the basics of speedruns try to emulate them by just bringing the same elite speccs? Well, yeah. It is ludicrous. However, if they want to do that... then let them. I usually can spot them easy enough and if its not a real speedrun group, I just leave on first boss. Again, dont see the point of being so aggressive about it.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@TexZero.7910 No one said that at all. Reread the OP statement. This thread was simply about elitist raid meta attitude bleeding into fractal play, which is in my experience, causing general T4 fractal completion to be slower than it was 4 to 6 months ago. This is considering the time accrued from the moment of opening the LFG and searching for a party or creating one, to the time of T4 daily completion.

I have 25,000 APs, 259 mastery points, all the fractal titles and ALL of my characters have at least 1 raid meta setup. I run T4s, CMs and Recs every day at reset. In fact, it is 3 minutes past reset right now and I'm about to log in and do just that. Even I am saying, that the fractal metas perform better than the raid metas in fractals concerning efficiency on time while playing with PUGs. Sometimes, depending on if you see that a party is struggling and needs a carry, it is actually better to swap your traits more defensively while lowering your DPS, so that you can carry and finish difficult tasks for them after they wipe, so you don't have to /gg reset at ARK or something when he's at 5% health. Hey, it's playing off meta but that off meta build is gonna save a team of bads from wiping 5x at a boss that I can solo the first time around. And no, /gg resetting when a boss is at 5-10% health so that we can all restart with full DPS is not saving time over me just finishing the damn fight on the spot, first time around.

[TexZero.7910]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@TexZero.7910 No one said that at all. Reread the OP statement. This thread was simply about elitist raid meta attitude bleeding into fractal play, which is in my experience, causing general T4 fractal completion to be slower than it was 4 to 6 months ago. This is considering the time accrued from the moment of opening the LFG and searching for a party or creating one, to the time of T4 daily completion.

I have 25,000 APs, 259 mastery points, all the fractal titles and ALL of my characters have at least 1 raid meta setup. I run T4s, CMs and Recs every day at reset. In fact, it is 3 minutes past reset right now and I'm about to log in and do just that. Even I am saying, that the fractal metas perform better than the raid metas in fractals concerning efficiency on time while playing with PUGs. Sometimes, depending on if you see that a party is struggling and needs a carry, it is actually better to swap your traits more defensively while lowering your DPS, so that you can carry and finish difficult tasks for them after they wipe, so you don't have to /gg reset at ARK or something when he's at 5% health. Hey, it's playing off meta but that off meta build is gonna save a team of bads from wiping 5x at a boss that I can solo the first time around. And no, /gg resetting when a boss is at 5-10% health so that we can all restart with full DPS is not saving time over me just finishing the kitten fight on the spot, first time around.

Again...

You do you, they do them. What's the difference between them and you again outside of you calling them elitist ?

If you don't want to deal with it you have the very same tools to create your own group just as they have.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

You're still not getting it bro. I made a simple statement pointing out that in my experience, the raid party mentality was creating elongated T4 fractal experiences, contrary to them believing it was speeding it up. Everything I am saying is in the comparing and contrasting of time efficient T4 daily completion. Using terms like "elite fractal grouping" seems to be distracting you from the focus of my statements. This has nothing to do with if I could or couldn't or did or didn't want to form my own group. It was a simple statement pointing out that I've experienced longer waits with LFG groups, no matter if you create or join them or what the description says.

You seem to be focusing so much on me calling the raid party mentality "elitist" as if they weren't. You should take the time to GOOGLE the definition of elitist or elitism and read it for yourself.

To answer you question directly, the difference between them and me is that I don't give a shit who joins my party. Usually I enjoy teaching new players anyway.

[TexZero.7910]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:You seem to be focusing so much on me calling the raid party mentality "elitist" as if they weren't. You should take the time to GOOGLE the definition of elitist or elitism and read it for yourself.

You seemingly are missing the point.

So let me clarify this for you because the irony here is too strong. You're labeling them elitist for playing how they want. Ironically, if you just played how you want and ignored them as they do you that would make you what ?

Elitist by your own usage of the words....

Funny how when one group self moderates the other feels so impassioned as to assault them with words for doing the same things they want to do too.

If you truly don't care what people run then there's no reason to even have this topic as it doesnt effect you or anyone else as they too can use the same tools and do what they want in the game.

[Zlater.6789]

There is only 1 reason, it's for efficiency.

Maybe a nomads thief will never die, but it will also never kill anything. If that's you, you are not welcome to join :C

[Eramonster.2718]

There's numerous playstyle and ways to do fractals(same for raid). And often people will look for optimal/efficient ways to do things. Eg. The debate on needing a healer in T4 for efficiency. The unshaken meta in Gw2 so far is to have 25stacks of might. To achieve that, players need to be stacked and if not; close together. Some of the mistlock instabilities prevent that idea (especially social awkwardness) and some find having a 'healer' overcomes the issue plus encourages stacking(for boons). Everyone probably had their own differents scenario(fractal level and encounters) running in their head therefore theres disagreements here and there. Can be done without, but I do find having a healer helpful for some encounters and strategies.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:No one said that at all. Reread the OP statement. This thread was simply about elitist raid meta attitude bleeding into fractal play, which is in my experience, causing general T4 fractal completion to be slower than it was 4 to 6 months ago. This is considering the time accrued from the moment of opening the LFG and searching for a party or creating one, to the time of T4 daily completion.

There are changes made to fractal recently : instabilities, avengers changes etc. The META shifted and there are players still adjusting and trying to find ways(new metas) to do it. There's no need to find blames, its more on humans behaviour. It will get better as the metas for fractal stabilized.

And what TexZero.7910 said:

You do you, they do them. What's the difference between them and you again outside of you calling them elitist ?

Everyone is capable of self thinking. You have your thoughts and perspective on how to do things, others have theirs. If both side find it hard to compromise, find others that do ; same effort.

[Faaris.8013]

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:@Vulf.3098 I don't think we both are even playing in the same league, so we better stop discussing this.

If you don't want to have a discussion then why are you still posting in the thread about the subject?

And again you misread clear statements. "we better stop discussing this". I'm still interested in this controversial topic and have my opinions, which I'll share and discuss. We, you and me, clearly don't even share a channel of communication, so this will be the last time for me to point out that you either didn't read or twisted my words (willingly or out of ignorance, I honestly don't care).

Back to topic:

As far as I can tell, the main strike of the "anti-elitist" fraction is against meta compositions in LFGs and not against playing your class in the most efficient way. So even if you are the best dps Soulbeast player in this game, you'll not get into these groups. I wished it was different, but I don't blame the people who don't want a Soulbeast as dps in their group. Group compositions that we call "meta" here consist of specialized class setups. Specialization is one of the best ways to get more efficient in almost everything. That's why we have professions in real life. If you have 5 specialized classes, the group is more efficient than one that consists of 5 Jacks of all trades, it's really that easy. We are not specializing because we lack the skill to play a Jack of all trades, but because we know that specialization is more efficient, and we get joy out of being efficient. The assumption that meta comp players don't know the mechanics and have no idea about dodging is ridiculous. You are not a better player if you play a dps class and solo a boss when your team goes down. If that happens, it means you didn't trust your team mates in the first place. When I trust my team, I don't set my dps class up so I could solo content, I specialize so I can do as much damage as my class alllows. If one member goes down, the specialization he brought is gone and makes the other members weaker. If your chrono dies, you'll do less dps and less healing. If a dps dies, you'll do much less dps and the fight takes longer, which increases the risk for the group. It's a high risk, high reward game. If all 5 members set up their class to be self-reliant, you'll be much less efficient, but if one member goes down, you won't wipe. Even if 3 members go down, you won't wipe, and sometimes, one player can finish the boss. In a specialized group, that rarely happens, but while the Jack of all trades group grinds through content, the specialized group just resets with /gg and starts over and is still faster. We don't mind getting wiped, it's part of the high risk high reward game.

And that is why it's important to have like-minded people in the group. If you have 4 players specializing and the fifth, let's say a dps class, plays a Jack of all trades, he'll do much less damage than the other 2 dps. Maybe random bad luck causes a big bang that kills the other 2 dps because they only have 12k health, and Jack survives. Jack might point out that the other dps were too squishy, and that's why they died, or that they don't know the mechanics or when to dodge, while the only reason he didn't die was because he had 20k health. He might even keep going when the other 4 players are dead, but even that is less efficient than just starting over. There is no shame in resetting a fight.

To avoid mismatches, people set specific requirements in their LFG. And if the majority of the LFGs is set up that way, it just means that the majority of players decided that this is how they want to play fractals. I don't see anything wrong with it.

What's wrong (or funny) is when noobs act like players who know their stuff. Yesterday I saw an LFG for recs T3/T2/T1 with "meta comp" in it, which is ridiculous, especially when T3 is Aquatic Ruins. Sometimes you'll find LFGs in T1 with "dps meter, kick if not performing". Avoid these groups at all cost and you are fine.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:You seem to be focusing so much on me calling the raid party mentality "elitist" as if they weren't. You should take the time to GOOGLE the definition of elitist or elitism and read it for yourself.

Who sets the benchmark for what is elitist? For me, players who know efficient ways to deal with content are normal, and the others are slackers. And elitists are players who kick people because they only do 90% of the dps that the qtfy benchmarks show, or ask you to ping your gear or tell you that you need to slot this or that skill, otherwise you'll be kicked.

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:My fractal runs yesterday became noticably smoother when I changed to support: nobody was dying anymore. Sure they were going down, but transfusion+ rez trait made them get back up so fast, you'd almost miss the fact that they went down. Point being:

support classes make fractals smoother and I would encourage groups to have 1 support, doesn't even need to be druid.

You are missing a different point that has been made earlier:

If people are dying in normal fractals without heal/support, it's not because there's no support. It's because they're not good enough

. Running with a healer just lets them push the responsibility for their own faults on a single person.

There are to sides to that.

When you're a beginner - yes, that's the reason, you're just not good enough.

But then I spend a good deal of time learning NOT to care about my own survival. By trusting the supports to do their job well I am free to do my own well. When I occasionally join a non-meta party I find myself downing more than I used to, because I changed my habits over the months. It doesn't mean my skills are worse (or better, for that matter), it means my skills are different, suited for teamplay.

And you're wrong, I don't run with a healer so I can delegate my own mistakes. I run with one so I can be much, MUCH more efficient. There are still mistakes to be made, and I am making ones, because I'm not perfect. However, they are on a different level, and with a different outcome. And don't get me wrong, if I mess up badly this can end up in a party wipe. Again, teamplay. We trust each other to do our parts right. When we do, everything's fine. When someone doesn't, it all falls apart. In a way, our mistakes are much less forgiving than the ones made by players playing solo together.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:My fractal runs yesterday became noticably smoother when I changed to support: nobody was dying anymore. Sure they were going down, but transfusion+ rez trait made them get back up so fast, you'd almost miss the fact that they went down. Point being:

support classes make fractals smoother and I would encourage groups to have 1 support, doesn't even need to be druid.

You are missing a different point that has been made earlier:

If people are dying in normal fractals without heal/support, it's not because there's no support. It's because they're not good enough

. Running with a healer just lets them push the responsibility for their own faults on a single person.

There are to sides to that.

When you're a beginner - yes, that's the reason, you're just not good enough.

But then I spend a good deal of time learning NOT to care about my own survival. By trusting the supports to do their job well I am free to do my own well. When I occasionally join a non-meta party I find myself downing more than I used to, because I changed my habits over the months. It doesn't mean my skills are worse (or better, for that matter), it means my skills are different, suited for teamplay.

And you're wrong, I don't run with a healer so I can delegate my own mistakes. I run with one so I can be much, MUCH more efficient. There are still mistakes to be made, and I am making ones, because I'm not perfect. However, they are on a different level, and with a different outcome. And don't get me wrong, if I mess up badly this can end up in a party wipe. Again, teamplay. We trust each other to do our parts right. When we do, everything's fine. When someone doesn't, it all falls apart. In a way, our mistakes are much less forgiving than the ones made by players playing solo together.

If you require the situation to accomodate to you, instead of accomodating to your situation, then yes, that's exactly what it means - you are simply not good enough. In old fractals there's simply no situation that should cause you to wipe if the healer is playing worse than expected. You always have time to realize what's going on and react accordingly. If you do not... well, that's definitely not only the healer's fault.

It's not that you've learned not to care about your survival. It's that playing with a good healer caused your survival skills to go down, because you didn't have to utilize them. I know the feeling, had it too - but you have to learn to recognize and acknowledge it, instead of trying to place the blame elsewhere. And of course, not having to care about making mistakes as far as your survival is concerned will allow you to concentrate better on dealing damage, and may be more efficient, but it doesn't mean your skills haven't slipped. Perfectly performing the rotation, in my book, will never be as high as being able to correctly react to a shifting and uncertain environment. The latter takes actual skill, the former is just a muscle memory.

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:My fractal runs yesterday became noticably smoother when I changed to support: nobody was dying anymore. Sure they were going down, but transfusion+ rez trait made them get back up so fast, you'd almost miss the fact that they went down. Point being:

support classes make fractals smoother and I would encourage groups to have 1 support, doesn't even need to be druid.

You are missing a different point that has been made earlier:

If people are dying in normal fractals without heal/support, it's not because there's no support. It's because they're not good enough

. Running with a healer just lets them push the responsibility for their own faults on a single person.

There are to sides to that.

When you're a beginner - yes, that's the reason, you're just not good enough.

But then I spend a good deal of time learning NOT to care about my own survival. By trusting the supports to do their job well I am free to do my own well. When I occasionally join a non-meta party I find myself downing more than I used to, because I changed my habits over the months. It doesn't mean my skills are worse (or better, for that matter), it means my skills are different, suited for teamplay.

And you're wrong, I don't run with a healer so I can delegate my own mistakes. I run with one so I can be much, MUCH more efficient. There are still mistakes to be made, and I am making ones, because I'm not perfect. However, they are on a different level, and with a different outcome. And don't get me wrong, if I mess up badly this can end up in a party wipe. Again, teamplay. We trust each other to do our parts right. When we do, everything's fine. When someone doesn't, it all falls apart. In a way, our mistakes are much less forgiving than the ones made by players playing solo together.

If you require the situation to accomodate to you, instead of accomodating to your situation, then yes, that's exactly what it means - you are simply not good enough. In old fractals there's simply no situation that should cause you to wipe if the healer is playing worse than expected. You always have time to realize what's going on and react accordingly. If you do not... well, that's definitely not only the healer's fault.

It's not that you've learned not to care about your survival. It's that playing with a good healer caused your survival skills to go down, because you didn't have to utilize them. I know the feeling, had it too - but you have to learn to recognize and acknowledge it, instead of trying to place the blame elsewhere. And of course, not having to care about making mistakes as far as your survival is concerned will allow you to concentrate better on dealing damage, and may be more efficient, but it

doesn't

mean your skills haven't slipped. Perfectly performing the rotation, in my book, will never be as high as being able to correctly react to a shifting and uncertain environment. The latter takes actual skill, the former is just a muscle memory.

My survival skills are irrelevant. If the healer fails at Old Tom, the party wipes because we're running under the assumption we're ignoring the mechanic. It doesn't matter if I see things going downhill, because I can't successfully do the mechanic all by myself in time and I can't expect of the others to change the tactic. This is not how teamplay works. So my best chance is to keep ignoring both the mechanic and my hp bar and dish out as much damage as possible so we can kill Tom before he wipes us.

For the record, I do utilize my survival skills often enough, in WvW. Where, I dare say, they are put under a lot more pressure than in fractals.

[Eramonster.2718]

Vulf.3098 probably was just trying to say its possible to 4man. As for the wipe, we don't know what actually happened in the run, everything is mere speculations for a conjecture.(eg. was the druid not able to go celestial form, unable to generate astral force, class skill and build used from randoms was unclear)

Overall sounds like a normal if not a good run to me with just 1 wipe. In fact, it's more surprising at least to me, if one never had any wipes or deaths before in fractals. Plus, they took measures to work around it and got it completed after.

But just drop it. Its going out of both topic (main post and its own) and the last comment stepped over the line. Fine for thoughts and ideas to clash, but when insults are thrown, it's no longer a debate but an arguement.

[Henry.5713]

Don't think either of you is wrong here.You should be able to handle both situations - be able to survive as a glass cannon without support while ditching out a decent or even a good amount of damage BUT also be to able squeeze out every little drop of damage without needless defensive play if your supports allow you to do so.The real loss of efficiency happens when people misjudge the situation which results in them playing needlessly defensive at a loss of damage or they end dying constantly while being too stubborn to move away from their golem rotation even slightly.

[Feanor.2358]

@Henry.5713 said:Don't think either of you is wrong here.You should be able to handle both situations - be able to survive as a glass cannon without support while ditching out a decent or even a good amount of damage BUT also be to able squeeze out every little drop of damage without needless defensive play if your supports allow you to do so.The real loss of efficiency happens when people misjudge the situation which results in them playing needlessly defensive at a loss of damage or they end dying constantly while being too stubborn to move away from their golem rotation even slightly.

You can't do decent damage without support. It is simply not possible, you're missing way too many damage boosts. You can do your best, but as a rule of thumb you'll be doing about 1/3rd of your potential, and that's not counting dps downtime due to having to dodge, use heals or change to defensive utilities.

[Henry.5713]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Henry.5713 said:Don't think either of you is wrong here.You should be able to handle both situations - be able to survive as a glass cannon without support while ditching out a decent or even a good amount of damage BUT also be to able squeeze out every little drop of damage without needless defensive play if your supports allow you to do so.The real loss of efficiency happens when people misjudge the situation which results in them playing needlessly defensive at a loss of damage or they end dying constantly while being too stubborn to move away from their golem rotation even slightly.

You can't do decent damage without support. It is simply not possible, you're missing way too many damage boosts. You can do your best, but as a rule of thumb you'll be doing about 1/3rd of your potential, and that's not counting dps downtime due to having to dodge, use heals or change to defensive utilities.

Oh, I certainly agree with you. Was actually talking about players maintaining that 1/3rd of their potential or any decent numbers given the circumstances they are in.A lot of them are far from reaching that 1/3, however. Something they should work on even if they insist on not having the popular supports.I am fully aware of the huge difference a druid can make by allowing everyone, and especially the weavers, to fully unload without having to dodge or move around needlessly. Pretty much why I am always on my druid.

Raids made people realize how good these supports actually are rather than give anyone a wrong impression.

[Feanor.2358]

@Henry.5713 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Henry.5713 said:Don't think either of you is wrong here.You should be able to handle both situations - be able to survive as a glass cannon without support while ditching out a decent or even a good amount of damage BUT also be to able squeeze out every little drop of damage without needless defensive play if your supports allow you to do so.The real loss of efficiency happens when people misjudge the situation which results in them playing needlessly defensive at a loss of damage or they end dying constantly while being too stubborn to move away from their golem rotation even slightly.

You can't do decent damage without support. It is simply not possible, you're missing way too many damage boosts. You can do your best, but as a rule of thumb you'll be doing about 1/3rd of your potential, and that's not counting dps downtime due to having to dodge, use heals or change to defensive utilities.

Oh, I certainly agree with you. Was actually talking about players maintaining that 1/3rd of their potential or any decent numbers given the circumstances they are in.A lot of them are far from reaching that 1/3, however. Something they should work on even if they insist on not having the popular supports.I am fully aware of the huge difference a druid can make by allowing everyone, and especially the weavers, to fully unload without having to dodge or move around needlessly. Pretty much why I am always on my druid.

Raids made people realize how good these supports actually are rather than give anyone a wrong impression.

Well, yea. Do your best in the situation, of course.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Sephylon.4938 said:My fractal runs yesterday became noticably smoother when I changed to support: nobody was dying anymore. Sure they were going down, but transfusion+ rez trait made them get back up so fast, you'd almost miss the fact that they went down. Point being: support classes make fractals smoother and I would encourage groups to have 1 support, doesn't even need to be druid.

I switched to playing druid in fractals exactly because of this. It's faster to find a party and I find runs with healer smoother.