Raid sellers

[zealex.9410]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

On 5 February 2015, Gaile Gray wrote

The LFG (Looking for Group) Tool is intended to be used to help put together a group to enjoy game content, such as Open World, Fractals of the Mists, or PvP. Over the last several weeks players have expressed increased concern about abuse of the LFG Tool as a growing number of individuals have begun using the LFG Tool to advertise the sale of in-game items.

Clearly, if a group-formation tool is flooded with item sales and trade messages, it will be difficult for players to use it for its intended purpose. Beyond that, trades and sales initiated in the tool are at high risk for scams. While our Customer Support Team will take action on the accounts of players who engage in scams and other disallowed activities, they generally will not be able to replace items of players who fall victim to these unscrupulous individuals.

Our policy: Players may use the LFG Tool only for the formation of a group.

Players may use the tool to sell a spot in a group,

but they may not use it to sell or trade items or for any other unintended purposes. Doing so will result in an account infraction.

You can help us reduce the spam and refocus the tool by reporting individuals who are misusing the LFG Tool. Simply click on the name of that player in your chat window, right click, choose “Report,” and then choose “LFG System Abuse.” With your help we’ll be able to keep the LFG Tool clear for your use in forming groups.

Emphasis

added.

They don't tell in that quote why they decided to allow it. Only that they allow it, which is not questioned in this thread. I find it interesting though that their policy is that the LFG tool is "only for the formation of a group.", but when you join a raid sell group, you are not joining any group to do a raid. You just get the info about prices and how to proceed if you are interested in buying a raid. Then you leave again, there is no "formation of a group" at all ^^

Wasnt the lfg back then something like "arah path 3 10 gold" (random numbers for the sake of the examble) but ye with the prices on the lfg desc u joined to buy.

[Obtena.7952]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Raid selling is allowed by Anet.

Nobody here said or implied that it was, jumped the gun?

It's just stupid that raid sellers have no own section for their business and Anet allows them to use the common raid LFG for it.

No it's not ... I don't get that logic. WHY do they need their own section? I can't think of a more appropriate place for them.

Well, because they sell a service, they are not really looking for a group, they already have their group.

That doesn't answer my question ... why do they need their own section?

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

On 5 February 2015, Gaile Gray wrote

The LFG (Looking for Group) Tool is intended to be used to help put together a group to enjoy game content, such as Open World, Fractals of the Mists, or PvP. Over the last several weeks players have expressed increased concern about abuse of the LFG Tool as a growing number of individuals have begun using the LFG Tool to advertise the sale of in-game items.

Clearly, if a group-formation tool is flooded with item sales and trade messages, it will be difficult for players to use it for its intended purpose. Beyond that, trades and sales initiated in the tool are at high risk for scams. While our Customer Support Team will take action on the accounts of players who engage in scams and other disallowed activities, they generally will not be able to replace items of players who fall victim to these unscrupulous individuals.

Our policy: Players may use the LFG Tool only for the formation of a group.

Players may use the tool to sell a spot in a group,

but they may not use it to sell or trade items or for any other unintended purposes. Doing so will result in an account infraction.

You can help us reduce the spam and refocus the tool by reporting individuals who are misusing the LFG Tool. Simply click on the name of that player in your chat window, right click, choose “Report,” and then choose “LFG System Abuse.” With your help we’ll be able to keep the LFG Tool clear for your use in forming groups.

Emphasis

added.

They don't tell in that quote why they decided to allow it. Only that they allow it, which is not questioned in this thread. I find it interesting though that their policy is that the LFG tool is "only for the formation of a group.", but when you join a raid sell group, you are not joining any group to do a raid. You just get the info about prices and how to proceed if you are interested in buying a raid. Then you leave again, there is no "formation of a group" at all ^^

This is the primary issue.

If you could join the group, pay your money and move on... Then it would make sense to have them in the same location.

However, if you cannot join that group and play right away, then this is a clear LFG abuse.

Actually, I don't see it that way ... They aren't any different than any other group with restrictions on who they want joining their team. LF people willing to pay to join a team for a run is a restriction, just like LF Chrono or Druid Healer.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I can see how the OP feels and where he is coming from buuuut... selling slots in a party is sort of a Guild Wars tradition. Believe it or not, it's healthy for the game. It gives end-game veteran players something challenging and lucrative to do. You know, things like selling 4 slots at Arah while you solo.

It also helps with gold sink, which is important.

[Linken.6345]

How do it help with gold sink?when money switch bettwen player got no tax on it so no sink in anyway.

[Aplier.7829]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I can see how the OP feels and where he is coming from buuuut... selling slots in a party is sort of a Guild Wars tradition. Believe it or not, it's healthy for the game. It gives end-game veteran players something challenging and lucrative to do. You know, things like selling 4 slots at Arah while you solo.

It also helps with gold sink, which is important.

The OP's issue isn't with raid selling itself. It's that sellers being able to afk advertise their sales runs, without any sort of cost to themselves, takes up LFG real-estate from the people who are trying to actively form groups to do things at that time. So it becomes an argument of whether or not the LFG tool is being abused by the people who are treating it like nothing more than a billboard that gets in the way of what others are trying to do.

[Oglaf.1074]

Again, the solution is to update the LFG function with customizable filters.

Problem solved.

[Talindra.4958]

Ppl complain to everything. You shouldn't get annoyed just by little things like this.. you are making your life difficult if your tolerance level is that low... just take things easy..

[Faaris.8013]

@Talindra.4958 said:Ppl complain to everything. You shouldn't get annoyed just by little things like this.. you are making your life difficult if your tolerance level is that low... just take things easy..

Well, there are people in this world who see something that is a problem for them and try to find a solution. It's just a natural thing for them, and since they do it their whole life without really thinking about it, they become excellent problem solvers. Then there are people who just accept or tolerate things as they come to them, without really bothering too much. They are more chilled than the problem solvers.

Best thing is when neither of these character types tell the other that they should change and do what the other type does.

[Deeyra.1476]

Would you guys stop complaining about the simplest things. If you want to look for a specific raid group you can easily type in what you are looking for. Nobody said you need to join them simply because they exist. And yes a lot of people buy raids these days (same people complain on forums about op classes). If you cant find any other groups have you considered making your own?Tl dr : stop this nonsense

[Dzjudz.9142]

Let me offer a perspective from the other side, since threads like these usually don't include many.

I'm a member of a raid sell guild, that's no secret. Why do I raid sell? Well, I've been raiding a lot since before I joined a raid sell guild and would clear raids multiple times a week for fun. Raids are the best part of the game for me. Getting good at this content and joining a raid sell guild allows me to have a bit of a challenge in raiding, that being low-manning every boss, while at the same time earning in-game gold.

Some players like to earn their gold mindlessly chopping down wood in Malchor's Leap. Some like to stand semi-afk shooting their engi turrets at respawning NPCs. Some like to flip the trading post. I like to raid actively and get paid for it.

I offer services and get paid in return. My guild has been selling raids daily since 2016 and we haven't had any issues. I can answer some questions, like those from @Faaris.8013 :

I mean seriously, how many people actually buy raids? I have no clue but I would bet that all those alliances together sell not even one raid per day.

You would be surprised. We usually have sells all evening, and I'm sure other guilds have similar patronage. It's true that on EU the raid sell market has many guilds, several of them popping up recently since the release of wing 5, while the NA market only has 2-3 guilds and competition there is slight. But then again, the entire raid LFG is more sparsely populated there, so perhaps it's an indication of the entire raid population as well.

There are even guilds that have several ads up at the same time, by different afk accounts, that look slightly different. It's quite possible that there are only 2 or 3 guilds in this whole game that sell raids, but you see 12 different offers and think they are all different guilds ^^

95% of LFGs on EU from different tags are actually different guilds with different members. There are a couple guilds that share members but the vast majority are legitimate ads. In the case of your screenshots posted in this thread, those guilds are all definitely separate guilds.

You cannot join any of the raid selling squads and expect to pay for and get the service immediately.

That depends on the guild, I guess. My guild is almost always ready to go when there's an LFG up.

I wouldn't mind a different tab for raid selling, or for services in general, but I don't count on ANet to make such a tab. For convenience, note that raid sell listings are almost always 1/10, and if you refresh the LFG it sorts groups by numbers of players in a squad, making the system sort the 1/10 listings at the bottom.

In short, I'm having fun doing challenging content while also getting paid in return, and we have happy customers who agree to prices and know what they are paying for. It's similar to porting people to the end of a jumping puzzle, except you need 6-8 people with a lot of knowledge and skill.

[Faaris.8013]

@Dzjudz.9142 said:In short, I'm having fun doing challenging content while also getting paid in return, and we have happy customers who agree to prices and know what they are paying for. It's similar to porting people to the end of a jumping puzzle, except you need 6-8 people with a lot of knowledge and skill.

Thanks for your input. Just want to point out that I don't think anyone here argued that raid selling itself is an issue. You don't have to defend yourself for offering this service :)

[Dzjudz.9142]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Dzjudz.9142 said:In short, I'm having fun doing challenging content while also getting paid in return, and we have happy customers who agree to prices and know what they are paying for. It's similar to porting people to the end of a jumping puzzle, except you need 6-8 people with a lot of knowledge and skill.

Thanks for your input. Just want to point out that I don't think anyone here argued that raid selling itself is an issue. You don't have to defend yourself for offering this service :)

There's often the implication that raid sellers are out to scam people by taking payment and not delivering or other methods. We wouldn't have a reputation for long if any of that occurred. We offer services and provide them fairly and in agreement with buyers, every day, multiple times a day. Unfortunately, yes, we do have to defend ourselves frequently.

[Xantaria.8726]

The simplest solution in my opinion would be like others already said to overhaul the lfg, but i doubt that this will happen. It wouldnt just be better for raidsellers, but also for example for statics which are looking for new members (which we mostly put into the raidlfg as well, but well a own section would be nice) or guilds trying to get new members, since of all players there are rather view in the forum.

@Dzjudz.9142 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Dzjudz.9142 said:In short, I'm having fun doing challenging content while also getting paid in return, and we have happy customers who agree to prices and know what they are paying for. It's similar to porting people to the end of a jumping puzzle, except you need 6-8 people with a lot of knowledge and skill.

Thanks for your input. Just want to point out that I don't think anyone here argued that raid selling itself is an issue. You don't have to defend yourself for offering this service :)

There's often the implication that raid sellers are out to scam people by taking payment and not delivering or other methods. We wouldn't have a reputation for long if any of that occurred. We offer services and provide them fairly and in agreement with buyers, every day, multiple times a day. Unfortunately, yes, we do have to defend ourselves frequently.

Unfortunately yes. Though it got better in my opinion.

[Dzjudz.9142]

@Xantaria.8726 said:or guilds trying to get new members

It's pretty telling that in the 5 years since launch there has been no improvement to guild recruitment over spamming map chat in this game.

[Anima Mens.8673]

does anet protect you from beeing scammed by raid sellers?

[Xantaria.8726]

@Anima Mens.8673 said:does anet protect you from beeing scammed by raid sellers?No. :PBut if you are getting scammed then its your own fault. They cant come to you and just take your money, YOU have to send it. And even if they kick you after you send them money, the reputation of those who did it would immedeatly spread though the community, so even if they do it, afterwards they will be marked in GW2.Its a risk on both side, so either those who cant raid for whatever reason (Rl, no gear, no time etc.) and have no problem with paying for it take the risk just as those who offer it take the risk to be marked forever when they actual betray the trust, or you just dont go into one.^^Same goes btw for other typ of scamming. For example if you try to sell an item outside of the tp. Same there, you CAN be scammed. Anet even said that its your own risk to who you send something, and that they wont do sth unless you have been hacked.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Anima Mens.8673 said:does anet protect you from beeing scammed by raid sellers?

You won’t get your gold back but they could still take action against the scammer(s).

[Astralporing.1957]

@Anima Mens.8673 said:does anet protect you from beeing scammed by raid sellers?

Yes and no. Yes, because it is a behaviour that can get the scammer banned if you can prove it (hint: Always try to document any transaction involving a lot of gold, just in case). No, because even if the scammer gets banned, you won't get your money back.

[boolah.1325]

@Dzjudz.9142 said:Let me offer a perspective from the other side, since threads like these usually don't include many.

I'm a member of a raid sell guild, that's no secret. Why do I raid sell? Well, I've been raiding a lot since before I joined a raid sell guild and would clear raids multiple times a week for fun. Raids are the best part of the game for me. Getting good at this content and joining a raid sell guild allows me to have a bit of a challenge in raiding, that being low-manning every boss, while at the same time earning in-game gold.

Some players like to earn their gold mindlessly chopping down wood in Malchor's Leap. Some like to stand semi-afk shooting their engi turrets at respawning NPCs. Some like to flip the trading post. I like to raid actively and get paid for it.

I offer services and get paid in return. My guild has been selling raids daily since 2016 and we haven't had any issues. I can answer some questions, like those from @Faaris.8013 :

I mean seriously, how many people actually buy raids? I have no clue but I would bet that all those alliances together sell not even one raid per day.

You would be surprised. We usually have sells all evening, and I'm sure other guilds have similar patronage. It's true that on EU the raid sell market has many guilds, several of them popping up recently since the release of wing 5, while the NA market only has 2-3 guilds and competition there is slight. But then again, the entire raid LFG is more sparsely populated there, so perhaps it's an indication of the entire raid population as well.

There are even guilds that have several ads up at the same time, by different afk accounts, that look slightly different. It's quite possible that there are only 2 or 3 guilds in this whole game that sell raids, but you see 12 different offers and think they are all different guilds ^^

95% of LFGs on EU from different tags are actually different guilds with different members. There are a couple guilds that share members but the vast majority are legitimate ads. In the case of your screenshots posted in this thread, those guilds are all definitely separate guilds.

You cannot join any of the raid selling squads and expect to pay for and get the service immediately.

That depends on the guild, I guess. My guild is almost always ready to go when there's an LFG up.

I wouldn't mind a different tab for raid selling, or for services in general, but I don't count on ANet to make such a tab. For convenience, note that raid sell listings are almost always 1/10, and if you refresh the LFG it sorts groups by numbers of players in a squad, making the system sort the 1/10 listings at the bottom.

In short, I'm having fun doing challenging content while also getting paid in return, and we have happy customers who agree to prices and know what they are paying for. It's similar to porting people to the end of a jumping puzzle, except you need 6-8 people with a lot of knowledge and skill.

A tab is all that is needed.. because seeing a bunch of raid sellers, which clutter the lfg is annoying.. call it ocd or whatever.. it's fkn annoying. Let's face it, you're not looking for a group!

[Talindra.4958]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Talindra.4958 said:Ppl complain to everything. You shouldn't get annoyed just by little things like this.. you are making your life difficult if your tolerance level is that low... just take things easy..

Well, there are people in this world who see something that is a problem for them and try to find a solution. It's just a natural thing for them, and since they do it their whole life without really thinking about it, they become excellent problem solvers. Then there are people who just accept or tolerate things as they come to them, without really bothering too much. They are more chilled than the problem solvers.

Best thing is when neither of these character types tell the other that they should change and do what the other type does.

I don't see a drama or problem creator can become a problem solver... :) I'm an engineer and I solve a lot of problems in real life.. but this isn't problem solving. This is someone unhappy about something very minor. it is more personal issue.

Dev has mentioned they have no issue with players selling raids... So do I... We can request dev to make another LFG section for seller but I don't see the need for it. Just waste of dev time. They better spend the time to make new fractal.. raid wing and etc update for us .. or new legendary skins

[Supz.9836]

@Talindra.4958 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Talindra.4958 said:Ppl complain to everything. You shouldn't get annoyed just by little things like this.. you are making your life difficult if your tolerance level is that low... just take things easy..

Well, there are people in this world who see something that is a problem for them and try to find a solution. It's just a natural thing for them, and since they do it their whole life without really thinking about it, they become excellent problem solvers. Then there are people who just accept or tolerate things as they come to them, without really bothering too much. They are more chilled than the problem solvers.

Best thing is when neither of these character types tell the other that they should change and do what the other type does.

I don't see a drama or problem creator can become a problem solver... :) I'm an engineer and I solve a lot of problems in real life.. but this isn't problem solving. This is someone unhappy about something very minor. it is more personal issue.

Dev has mentioned they have no issue with players selling raids... So do I... We can request dev to make another LFG section for seller but I don't see the need for it. Just waste of dev time. They better spend the time to make new fractal.. raid wing and etc update for us .. or new legendary skins

As an engineer I would imagine you wouldn't think it take that much Dev time to add a new tab? Surely the game isn't so poorly designed that it takes more than a minute or two to add an extra tab, especially as every time there is a new map they seem to add a new section?

I think adding a new tab for this is a great idea OP.

[zealex.9410]

@Anima Mens.8673 said:does anet protect you from beeing scammed by raid sellers?

Its up to you as an adult to decide wether a seller is trustworthy. If you arent an adult then seek friends that are and ask for their advice on the matter.

[Dzjudz.9142]

Just linking the official latest stance on run selling in case people haven't seen it.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Supz.9836 said:As an engineer I would imagine you wouldn't think it take that much Dev time to add a new tab? Surely the game isn't so poorly designed that it takes more than a minute or two to add an extra tab, especially as every time there is a new map they seem to add a new section?It's not a matter of effort. It's a matter of politics. Anet sees nothing wrong with raid selling, but they do not support it. Thus, they won't provide a tab for that activity.

[Yasi.9065]

I really dont care at all if others sell raid/dungeon/whatever slots to players that can afford it. Let them, it helps the economy as long as there is no RMT involved.

However, I also think that all those ADVERTISEMENTS from sell-guilds ARE lfg abuse, and Anet should either:a) Create a lfg tab for advertisements in general, or for raids/dungeons/fractals/guild each its own.b) Create a forum sticky where people can post their sell details + links. Probably doesnt even have to be sticky, it will stay alive anyway.

In LFG there should be only groups that are forming for the immediate future, not afk accounts for advertising purposes.