Conquest is Too Complicated for PUGS

[shadowpass.4236]

In order to win in conquest you need a combination of Mechanics and Rotations.

However, 99% of the players in this gamemode CANNOT do both. Conquest is too complicated for randoms to learn, since learning correct rotations only come from asking experienced players/watching tournaments. There is nothing straightforward or easy to pick up about all the different matchups and how to play the map effectively.

Question:

Why doesn't Anet have any tutorials in game about this? Why have they not written any guides for new players to read about how to play Conquest?

Answer:

It's because they don't know how. Ask an Anet dev to play a match of Conquest at high level and I'd bet money that they won't be able to.

This game needs to make Conquest 5-man que again. Either that, or introduce 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3 gamemodes where players don't need to rely on their team to perform.

[Mr Godlike.6098]

It's not simple to explain what rotation is in pvp because...to use it it requires intelligence...this is sad truth...You can try to start with ,,go and kill what your class counters" but it's too simple. To rotate effectively you not only you have to be smart but also experienced like kinda...i don't know...humble. You know that you can't win this 1v1 or you know you can't handle 1v2 in this situation...so you retreat to win other fight. Cause dying is worst thing in every scenario in conquest. People generally don't value their life's. They think that conquest is ALL ABOUT NODES and it reality it's not.

You can explain over and over that it's bad idea to outnumber that druid/firebrand, that generally thief shouldn't 1v1 or go close at start, that i am keeping at far scourge so go win mid for god sake and don't help me if you are not mesmer/thief...or just i am outnumbered at far so go cap something because there are only 2 enemy players on other nodes (for F sake you are 4v2 now).

You get the nodes when you KILL somebody,. Nodes stay yours if you keep somebody DEAD. If YOU ARE DEAD you are NOT killing anybody, not getting nodes, not holding nodes and you make KILLING YOUR TEAM MUCH MORE EASIER SO NOBODY DOES S***. STAYING ALIVE means somebody from enemy team will have to do something about you - it means he won't be somewhere else and it depend's on what that dudes plays some of your team mates might stay ALIVE AND DO STUFF... And there is much more....

I have no idea how anet could make in game tutorial about this...

But if i can suggest something:

• make 1v1 arenas happen so people will have safe space to check what their builds do and what not.
• we have npc of every class in our pvp lobby...if we have now presets with current meta why those npc couldn't have current meta builds so people can learn how this builds work - at least it would improve players mechanically.
• I know that metabattle give's hints where this build should be and where it should be not...but it's not enough. 1000% more I learned from streamers about rotations. I don't know how to put it but generally metabattle builds and other videos, guides should focus more on rotations. Most people will just copy this builds and randomly rush every 1v1 they see.

[Saiyan.1704]

Games made specifically with PvP in mind will have all kinds of tutorial modes and single player practice maps.

MMORPG games are PvE first and foremost. PvP is just a by-product...GW2 is no exception.

[Ziggityzog.7389]

Circlequest was never a good idea I'm surprised they made it the \31 game mode. Back at launch they could have gone a better way then fighting invisible circles

[Phineas Poe.3018]

@Saiyan.1704 said:MMORPG games are PvE first and foremost.

What on earth are you talking about?

Traditional MMORPGs back in the 90s and early 00s had pretty crushing rule-sets like permadeath and full-loot PvP. Maybe you're too young or just didn't get into MMORPGs until after World of Warcraft came onto the scene, but Ultima Online, Tibia, EverQuest, and so on all had a very big PvP focus. You could choose to play on consensual (flagged) PvP or PvE servers, but the games were designed from the ground up for non-consensual open world PvP.

It's not like these games stopped being made, either. EvE Online is still popular, and both Crowfall and Camelot Unchained will focus heavily on PvP. Black Desert and ArcheAge are both sandbox-lite PvP-oriented games, too. And though we don't have a whole lot of information to go by, from what we know based on what Amazon has said, New World will also be a PvP-oriented sandbox MMORPG.

I'd even argue that World of Warcraft, prior to TBC introducing flying mounts, was very much an open world PvP oriented game.

[psyt.9415]

@Phineas Poe.3018 said:

@Saiyan.1704 said:MMORPG games are PvE first and foremost.

What on earth are you talking about?

Traditional MMORPGs back in the 90s and early 00s had pretty crushing rule-sets like permadeath and full-loot PvP. Maybe you're too young or just didn't get into MMORPGs until after World of Warcraft came onto the scene, but Ultima Online, Tibia, EverQuest, and so on all had a very big PvP focus. You could choose to play on consensual (flagged) PvP or PvE servers, but the games were designed from the ground up for non-consensual open world PvP.

It's not like these games stopped being made, either. EvE Online is still popular, and both Crowfall and Camelot Unchained will focus heavily on PvP. Black Desert and ArcheAge are both sandbox-lite PvP-oriented games, too. And though we don't have a whole lot of information to go by, from what we know based on what Amazon has said, New World will also be a PvP-oriented sandbox MMORPG.

I'd even argue that World of Warcraft, prior to TBC introducing flying mounts, was very much an open world PvP oriented game.

Cant forget good old DAOC either and yes WoW Ashenvale Forest and Hillsbrad were good times.

[BeLZedaR.4790]

@shadowpass.4236 said:In order to win in conquest you need a combination of Mechanics and Rotations.

However, 99% of the players in this gamemode CANNOT do both. Conquest is too complicated for randoms to learn, since learning correct rotations only come from asking experienced players/watching tournaments. There is nothing straightforward or easy to pick up about all the different matchups and how to play the map effectively.

Question:

Why doesn't Anet have any tutorials in game about this? Why have they not written any guides for new players to read about how to play Conquest?

Answer:

It's because they don't know how. Ask an Anet dev to play a match of Conquest at high level and I'd bet money that they won't be able to.

This game needs to make Conquest 5-man que again. Either that, or introduce 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3 gamemodes where players don't need to rely on their team to perform.

I kinda agree except on the 5 man queue part. It doesn’t work it simply fucking doesn’t, we had that in seasons 1-4 and if you think current ranked ain’t competitive, back then it was puuure joke. No one fucking needs 5 mans farming randoms, itmay not be the case in whatever gold division where people dunno how to use the communication and all are bad equally so It doesn’t matter, but when people know to share information communicating is OP as fuck and is gonna be farmfest.ATs are the best solution pretty much and they should keep investing in those, adding 1v1, 3v3 ATs and weeklies and so on.

[shadowpass.4236]

@BeLZedaR.4790 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:In order to win in conquest you need a combination of Mechanics and Rotations.

However, 99% of the players in this gamemode CANNOT do both. Conquest is too complicated for randoms to learn, since learning correct rotations only come from asking experienced players/watching tournaments. There is nothing straightforward or easy to pick up about all the different matchups and how to play the map effectively.

Question:

Why doesn't Anet have any tutorials in game about this? Why have they not written any guides for new players to read about how to play Conquest?

Answer:

It's because they don't know how. Ask an Anet dev to play a match of Conquest at high level and I'd bet money that they won't be able to.

This game needs to make Conquest 5-man que again. Either that, or introduce 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3 gamemodes where players don't need to rely on their team to perform.

I kinda agree except on the 5 man queue part. It doesn’t work it simply kitten doesn’t, we had that in seasons 1-4 and if you think current ranked ain’t competitive, back then it was puuure joke. No one kitten needs 5 mans farming randoms, itmay not be the case in whatever gold division where people dunno how to use the communication and all are bad equally so It doesn’t matter, but when people know to share information communicating is OP as kitten and is gonna be farmfest.ATs are the best solution pretty much and they should keep investing in those, adding 1v1, 3v3 ATs and weeklies and so on.

No. You are completely wrong.

First of all, solo que only is terrible. It is impossible for a single player to carry an entire team in Conquest. There is no snowball mechanic outside of good team rotating and fighting properly. Thus, by definition, winning games comes down to luck rather than player skill.

Second, this is a team based gamemode. Like, it really isn't that fucking hard to understand but I'll say it again. It is a team based gamemode. Why would it be a good thing, to not allow people to make their own teams???

ATs are a joke, so are the monthlies. It's legit the same teams winning every. single. one.

All of the pro players quit because we really fucking hate playing solo. Games are NOT fun when we get matched up with people who have no idea what the hell they're doing with matchmaking expecting us to be able to carry 4 potatoes for 10 minutes on our backs.

We didn't just have 5 man ques in seasons 1-4. We fucking had it SINCE RELEASE until people like you complained that an organized team using comms wins more against unorganized teams without comms. Like, no duh. That's the incentive to form your own team...

[shadowpass.4236]

For the record, for all of you people advocating for solo que only, I hope you realize that playing with friends is the biggest reason people continue to play a game. By removing that aspect, you're literally giving people no reasons to stay and keep the game alive.

[BeLZedaR.4790]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@BeLZedaR.4790 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:In order to win in conquest you need a combination of Mechanics and Rotations.

However, 99% of the players in this gamemode CANNOT do both. Conquest is too complicated for randoms to learn, since learning correct rotations only come from asking experienced players/watching tournaments. There is nothing straightforward or easy to pick up about all the different matchups and how to play the map effectively.

Question:

Why doesn't Anet have any tutorials in game about this? Why have they not written any guides for new players to read about how to play Conquest?

Answer:

It's because they don't know how. Ask an Anet dev to play a match of Conquest at high level and I'd bet money that they won't be able to.

This game needs to make Conquest 5-man que again. Either that, or introduce 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3 gamemodes where players don't need to rely on their team to perform.

I kinda agree except on the 5 man queue part. It doesn’t work it simply kitten doesn’t, we had that in seasons 1-4 and if you think current ranked ain’t competitive, back then it was puuure joke. No one kitten needs 5 mans farming randoms, itmay not be the case in whatever gold division where people dunno how to use the communication and all are bad equally so It doesn’t matter, but when people know to share information communicating is OP as kitten and is gonna be farmfest.ATs are the best solution pretty much and they should keep investing in those, adding 1v1, 3v3 ATs and weeklies and so on.

No. You are completely wrong.

First of all, solo que only is terrible. It is impossible for a single player to carry an entire team in Conquest. There is no snowball mechanic outside of good team rotating and fighting properly. Thus, by definition, winning games EXCLUSIVELY comes down to luck rather than player skill.

Second, this is a TEAM based gamemode. Like, it really isn't that kitten hard to understand but I'll say it again. It is a TEAAAAMMMM BASED GAMEMODE. Why the kitten would it be a good thing, to NOT ALLOW PEOPLE TO MAKE THEIR OWN TEAMS???

ATs are a joke, so are the monthlies. It's legit the same teams winning every. single. one.

All of the pro players quit because we really kitten hate playing solo. Games are NOT fun when we get matched up with people who have no idea what the hell they're doing with matchmaking expecting us to be able to carry 4 potatoes for 10 minutes on our backs.

We didn't just have 5 man ques in seasons 1-4. We kitten had it SINCE RELEASE until people like you complained that an organized team using comms wins more against unorganized teams without comms. Like, no duh. That's the incentive to form your own team...

Thought about the fact the same teams are winning because they’re levels above? Meaning it’s actually competitive?And lol, how are you going to form a team without some way to soloq? Who is gonna take you when you have no way to prove you’re good without having a team in the first place?If they actually banned the wintraders and hackers the leaderboards would not be a bad way to legitimize yourself.If you so like to stomp pugs with 5 mans you got unranked, just doesn’t mean you should get any rating for that.

[shadowpass.4236]

@BeLZedaR.4790 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@BeLZedaR.4790 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:In order to win in conquest you need a combination of Mechanics and Rotations.

However, 99% of the players in this gamemode CANNOT do both. Conquest is too complicated for randoms to learn, since learning correct rotations only come from asking experienced players/watching tournaments. There is nothing straightforward or easy to pick up about all the different matchups and how to play the map effectively.

Question:

Why doesn't Anet have any tutorials in game about this? Why have they not written any guides for new players to read about how to play Conquest?

Answer:

It's because they don't know how. Ask an Anet dev to play a match of Conquest at high level and I'd bet money that they won't be able to.

This game needs to make Conquest 5-man que again. Either that, or introduce 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3 gamemodes where players don't need to rely on their team to perform.

I kinda agree except on the 5 man queue part. It doesn’t work it simply kitten doesn’t, we had that in seasons 1-4 and if you think current ranked ain’t competitive, back then it was puuure joke. No one kitten needs 5 mans farming randoms, itmay not be the case in whatever gold division where people dunno how to use the communication and all are bad equally so It doesn’t matter, but when people know to share information communicating is OP as kitten and is gonna be farmfest.ATs are the best solution pretty much and they should keep investing in those, adding 1v1, 3v3 ATs and weeklies and so on.

No. You are completely wrong.

First of all, solo que only is terrible. It is impossible for a single player to carry an entire team in Conquest. There is no snowball mechanic outside of good team rotating and fighting properly. Thus, by definition, winning games EXCLUSIVELY comes down to luck rather than player skill.

Second, this is a TEAM based gamemode. Like, it really isn't that kitten hard to understand but I'll say it again. It is a TEAAAAMMMM BASED GAMEMODE. Why the kitten would it be a good thing, to NOT ALLOW PEOPLE TO MAKE THEIR OWN TEAMS???

ATs are a joke, so are the monthlies. It's legit the same teams winning every. single. one.

All of the pro players quit because we really kitten hate playing solo. Games are NOT fun when we get matched up with people who have no idea what the hell they're doing with matchmaking expecting us to be able to carry 4 potatoes for 10 minutes on our backs.

We didn't just have 5 man ques in seasons 1-4. We kitten had it SINCE RELEASE until people like you complained that an organized team using comms wins more against unorganized teams without comms. Like, no duh. That's the incentive to form your own team...

Thought about the fact the same teams are winning because they’re levels above? Meaning it’s actually competitive?

That's literally the complete opposite of being competitive. If the same teams are winning, by definition, that means there is NO COMPETITION.

And lol, how are you going to form a team without some way to soloq? Who is gonna take you when you have no way to prove you’re good without having a team in the first place?

That doesn't make sense. I haven't said anything about removing the ability to solo que. Let people play with their friends. Restricting that ability was the worst decision that could've been made.

People had tryouts back in the day.

If they actually banned the wintraders and hackers the leaderboards would not be a bad way to legitimize yourself.

It's too bad they ban cheaters as slow as they release balance patches. 4x a year.

If you so like to stomp pugs with 5 mans you got unranked, just doesn’t mean you should get any rating for that.

No. Fuck off. If you don't like getting stomped by 5 mans, you got unranked. Why the hell should the people who want to play competitively, have to go in the non-competitive gamemode? That's actually stupid.

[BeLZedaR.4790]

Your arguments are fundamentally flawed, if you don’t see my point I think you’re very biased and can’t cater to the other side of this. I realize ranked with friends is fun, and I’d agree duo should come back for that purpose, but 5 mans got ATs as a good solution, where you can tryhard as a team and I occasionally do so myself. ATs should just be much more frequent that once/6hr.

[shadowpass.4236]

@BeLZedaR.4790 said:Your arguments are fundamentally flawed, if you don’t see my point I think you’re very biased and can’t cater to the other side of this. I realize ranked with friends is fun, and I’d agree duo should come back for that purpose, but 5 mans got ATs as a good solution, where you can tryhard as a team and I occasionally do so myself. ATs should just be much more frequent that once/6hr.

No. You are 100%, completely wrong. There is literally not a single thing that is good about a company restricting its entire playerbase from playing with their friends in a particular gamemode.

How great would it be to make raids solo que only? What about WvW? Do you realize how difficult it would be to coordinate a raid boss WITHOUT a proper team? That's how ranked is right now. It's fucking ridiculous and if you think otherwise, you are one of the people who killed off the gamemode in the first place.

[BeLZedaR.4790]

Ok then, you won’t listen to any opposing arguments xD

[shadowpass.4236]

@"BeLZedaR.4790" said:Ok then, you won’t listen to any opposing arguments xD

Because advocating for the removal of our ability to play with our friends (which we've literally had since Guild Wars 2 released) is selfish and stupid. "xD"

[Phineas Poe.3018]

@"shadowpass.4236" said:For the record, for all of you people advocating for solo que only, I hope you realize that playing with friends is the biggest reason people continue to play a game. By removing that aspect, you're literally giving people no reasons to stay and keep the game alive.

Shadowpass, we had a separate team arena and solo arena queue for close to 3 years. It really did nothing to grow the game. Very few if any teams grew out of random ranked queues; it was the ESL weekly tournaments and other extraneous events that pushed people to form teams and compete.

The team arena queue was just a second solo queue button that gave you more rank points and had the more selective map rotation of just Forest, Legacy, Temple, and Kyhlo. Once people figured out they could avoid bad maps like the old Skyhammer or Capricorn, and once they realized they could rank up faster by just sticking to team arenas (because getting rank 80 back then was a pipe dream), solo queue eventually died out. It didn't help that they basically stopped updating the leaderboards on the website after a while, so there was literally zero incentive to participate in solo arenas. Queuing solo arenas was just a way to take longer to reach rank 80, with worse rewards and longer queue times.

Point is, ArenaNet has already tried separating team and solo queues. There wasn't enough of a population to sustain the split.

They've also already tried using a dynamic queue, and even promoted people queuing together with the "guild team" system. Again, no one really used it. I just remember teams like Radioactiv and The Abjured just making five different alternate guild teams loading up the guild team leaderboard that way.

And like Belzedar said, it was a total clown fiesta; whether it was the 1-5 queue during seasons one through four or the 1-2 queue during seasons five onward, there simply weren't enough duos/teams queuing simultaneously to make fair games. The matchmaker could simply never make balanced games. It'd do incredibly stupid stuff like putting two duos against 5 solo players.

After years of hand-wringing they've finally come up with the system we have now, which works pretty well. You can duo up to a certain point in ranked -- where population tends to be thicker -- and you can do daily automated tournaments if you want a more structured PvP experience.

If people want to play with their friends that badly, they can just queue unranked.

[Delweyn.1309]

Another solution that every players can do is making deathmatch.

[floody.4951]

dude shadowpass idk how many more posts u wanna do about this stuff but yes it is possible to carry a whole team while playing soloq, druid afk might not be the best class to do so.. ever thought about it? but i clearly do agree that playing with friends needs to be added to ranked again, but nothing more than 3man queues

[pah.4931]

I think they need to completely eliminate random-queue ranked. It's the exact opposite of "competitive" ... it's "hope you're team is decent and the other team isn't."

If anyone has ever played sports, you'd know why the system is fundamentally flawed. For every close, awesome, fun game, you have 4 terrible ones.

Any sort of "ranked" play should be 5-man premades only. And the random queue should be 100% unranked with a new reward system that rewards you for just grinding out games (similar to pips). Solo queue should be fun (and not "meta build or gtfo"), a decent gold/hour ratio, and -- ideally -- a place for anet to make new game modes instead of conquest only. What they have now is just not good or smart.

The solo-queue ranked experiment has failed.

[Axl.8924]

I dunno about that.Seems to me like a lot of people are just spamming condis and ccs and bursting you down instantly with their power builds.

Seems pretty messy to me, and hard to understand whats going on because it all happens so fast.

[Ledavi.1803]

Cant forget good old DAOC either and yes WoW Ashenvale Forest and Hillsbrad were good times.

Don't forget Age of Conan - early on had an option of expanded loot in open world, was brutal if memory serves

[Abazigal.3679]

@BeLZedaR.4790 said:Your arguments are fundamentally flawed, if you don’t see my point I think you’re very biased and can’t cater to the other side of this. I realize ranked with friends is fun, and I’d agree duo should come back for that purpose, but 5 mans got ATs as a good solution, where you can tryhard as a team and I occasionally do so myself. ATs should just be much more frequent that once/6hr.

AT's on their actual state aren't so good because level difference is way too high. Usually, a gold3 /plat random group is going to roll 1st/2nd round and going to get rolled at quarterfinals. This isn't about matchmaking, the level difference is obvious, but you have no way of working in order to get better as long as you rarely experience even matchs. Probably why AT's are going to change into swiss rounds soon...

That being said, i don't wanna do the devil's advocate, but builds have a bigger issue nowadays. Builds such as scourge or spellbreakers aren't good at all in order to learn basics

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@shadowpass.4236 said:For the record, for all of you people advocating for solo que only, I hope you realize that playing with friends is the biggest reason people continue to play a game. By removing that aspect, you're literally giving people no reasons to stay and keep the game alive.

That's true. I really enjoy playing duo with my wife. If not for this I'd just keep afk-farming WvW reward tracks.

[Sylosi.6503]

Threads like this are always amusing, the reality is even half the "pro" teams back when this game had "pro" teams couldn't cope with rotations/decisons properly, whcih is why there was such > @Saiyan.1704 said:

Games made specifically with PvP in mind will have all kinds of tutorial modes and single player practice maps.

MMORPG games are PvE first and foremost. PvP is just a by-product...GW2 is no exception.

You mean themepark MMORPGs, real MMORPGs have plenty of focus on PvP, e.g - EVE Online, Ultima, etc.

[brannigan.9831]

Actually anybody that cares with a brain should be able to pick up the proper rotations through trial and error and experience. Problem is that most people don't in fact care. They just want to kill stuff holding points be damned.