PVP/WVW skill split+balance patch

[Ghost.5637]

Glad they're showing d/d love, wonder if heartseeker changes will make up for damage loss on auto attack

New info:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

Here is the full thief list, since I was pretty unclear:

ThiefSkills

• Dagger Autoattack chain: Reduced damages by 15% overall in PvP and WvW
• Sword Autoattack chain: Reduced damages by 14% overall in PvP and WvW
• Roll for Initiative: Increased the cooldown from 35 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Cloak and Dagger: Reduced the initiative cost from 6 to 5 in PvP and WvW
• Signet of Shadows: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Assassin's Signet: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Smoke Screen: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Dagger Storm: Reduced the cooldown from 90 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Hide in Shadows: Increased the base healing by 15% in PvP and WvW
• Skelk Venom: Increased the venom heal per hit by 25% in PvP and WvW
• Larcenous Strike: Reduced damage from 15% in PvP and WvW

Traits

• Pulmonary Impact: Reduced damage by 29% in PvP and WvW
• Upper Hand: Increased the cooldown from 3 seconds to 5 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Panic Strike: Increased the cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW. The WvW version of this trait will now use the PvP immobilize duration of 1.5 seconds
• Instant Reflexes: Increased the cooldown from 40 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Pain response: Increased the cooldown from 16 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP only
• Hard to Catch: Increased the cooldown from 45 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Swindler's Equilibrium: Increased the cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW

groan...

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

I nearly burst out in laughter when I saw this change. They only reversed a change they put in several patches ago. At least thief didn’t get hit like holosmith.

[Alatar.7364]

Not sure if Sword AA deserved almost the same Power reduction as Dagger AA, as the one of Dagger is so much faster thus dealing quite a bit more of a dmg.I think it would make more sense to nerf Larcenous Strike and leave the AA alone or nerf it by smaller amount. I know it sounds like the nerf comes only due to S/D, but I still think that Sword AA is not that strong and if there is something strong then it's the said Larcenous Strike in S/D set. This way useless fun set like S/P is even more useless and even less fun. Which doesn't seem to promote the targeted Build Diversity.Anyway, except this one, the other changes were pretty well deserved, especially PI. I think it's fair.

[saerni.2584]

Thief won’t get hit too hard in any patch that focuses on passives reductions because thief never had that many to begin with.

As far as CnD is concerned the initiative cost is a nice QoL change but doesn’t address the issue of how to promote D/D power compared to D/P

The choice is really solidly CnD but I think a more functionality change rather than initiative change is what’s needed. No, I think unblockable is a bad idea.

What I’d rather have is that CnD reduces the revealed timer by 0.5-1 second on a successful hit. Not enough to let someone spam it from stealth but one that makes the CnD and backstab and evade and CnD and backstab playstyle more fluid than it is now.

That buffs X/D builds and opens up more opportunities for skilled play oriented around landing a slow attack which first hits, lowers the revealed debuff and then stealths.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Would make more sense to remove the +20% on LS and leave sword AA

[babazhook.6805]

I wish they had looked at tweaking SOM.

As to the changes the only ones I find myself concerned about are the ICD boosts in PvP to those passives in Acro. Now I do not Pvp BUT I think the ICDS might be a little too long as there simply no reason to take a trait that has overly long ICDs. They shoul dcertainly be increased but they may hav went overboard. At 90 seconds on ICD and 90 on Instant reflexes there just no way I could ever see taking these in a build. PR at 40 is doable although the regen should come with a duration boost.

I am really going to have to test Skelk venom again if that goes through That long ICD hurts it but it just MIGHT be worthwhile now.

[TwiceDead.1963]

I actually like that they've shifted the focus somewhat, from AA being the primary source of damage to abilities taking that role... I feel like AAs has been the thiefs primary source of damage for the longest time now, after the initial burst.

For example, many thieves in WvW opt to just go for a Shadow Shot and an AA cycle for an opener, as it's more reliable than packing all your damage into a potential backstab that is likely to be stopped in some way... But to be honest, that might not have changed as they did buff Shadow Shot here as well... Granted, they upped the cost.

It makes sense in PvE for the AA to be strong as we don't have the sustained damage the other classes have due to our Initiative system, but in PvP I always kinda figured the damage should come from the abilities for the most part, where AAs is the supplemental damage, not the primary source of it.

[bq pd.2148]

shadowshot deals more damage - not like it didnt already hit for over 10k on some , assassins signet cd reduced, looks like my gimmick deadeye got buffed again :D

[Alatar.7364]

@MUDse.7623 said:shadowshot deals more damage - not like it didnt already hit for over 10k on some , assassins signet cd reduced, looks like my gimmick deadeye got buffed again :D

In WvW I suppose?

[bq pd.2148]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:shadowshot deals more damage - not like it didnt already hit for over 10k on some , assassins signet cd reduced, looks like my gimmick deadeye got buffed again :D

In WvW I suppose?

yes, forgot to add that - thought it was obvious.

[Alatar.7364]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:shadowshot deals more damage - not like it didnt already hit for over 10k on some , assassins signet cd reduced, looks like my gimmick deadeye got buffed again :D

In WvW I suppose?

yes, forgot to add that - thought it was obvious.

It was Obvious, I just got Scared that someone could actually claim it was in PvP =D

[Jinks.2057]

Bad changes for thief.

Overall damage was nerfed heavily. The damage reduction to thief AA's is not being properly reallocated to other areas. Heartseeker is a waste of a skill in todays game. The damage buff to Shadowshot is nice, but the increase to 5 init per use is going to destroy the timing & resource management of thieves creating a very large window of punishment without proper buffing to innate thief survivability.

Overall in the grand scheme of things I do not see enough nerfing to every other profession's damage mitigation to warrant this change on thieves. I also do not see enough nerfs to their damage as well to not warrant an increase in thief innate survivability.

Overall they just increased CDs on the passive bullshit that plagues GW2 PvP while throwing in some damage nerfs and insane damage buffs. Meanwhile Thieves are now more pigeonholed into competing on a core thief and looking at the nice new elites as wishful thinking.

p.s. Yes I notice the CnD buff....too bad it changes nothing. Yes shadowshot is going to hit fucking hard.....the flow of thief though was the ability to properly utilize it to keep your foe blinded while pumping AA's for the real damage. The vast majority of thief damage over a fight is AA's which is now facing -15% that is ONLY enforced on the 1st two hits in the chain which are the most likely to land. Yes very rarely do thieves connect the 3rd in chain AA

This will be effectively a -40% nerf to AA damage

That kind of damage nerf along with the completely irrational increased window of vulnerability puts thief in a VERY difficult spot considering the rest of the professions weren't nerfed enough

[TwiceDead.1963]

@Jinks.2057 said:Bad changes for thief.

Overall damage was nerfed heavily. The damage reduction to thief AA's is not being properly reallocated to other areas. Heartseeker is a waste of a skill in todays game. The damage buff to Shadowshot is nice, but the increase to 5 init per use is going to destroy the timing & resource management of thieves creating a very large window of punishment without proper buffing to innate thief survivability.

Overall in the grand scheme of things I do not see enough nerfing to every other profession's damage mitigation to warrant this change on thieves. I also do not see enough nerfs to their damage as well to not warrant an increase in thief innate survivability.

Overall they just increased CDs on the passive kitten that plagues GW2 PvP while throwing in some damage nerfs and insane damage buffs. Meanwhile Thieves are now more pigeonholed into competing on a core thief and looking at the nice new elites as wishful thinking.

p.s. Yes I notice the CnD buff....too bad it changes nothing. Yes shadowshot is going to hit kitten hard.....the flow of thief though was the ability to properly utilize it to keep your foe blinded while pumping AA's for the real damage. The vast majority of thief damage over a fight is AA's which is now facing -15% that is ONLY enforced on the 1st two hits in the chain which are the most likely to land. Yes very rarely do thieves connect the 3rd in chain AA

This will be effectively a -40% nerf to AA damage

That kind of damage nerf along with the completely irrational increased window of vulnerability puts thief in a VERY difficult spot considering the rest of the professions weren't nerfed enough

You know what? It's just like nothing has changed! Thieves has always fought an uphill battle compared to other classes.

I am going to need to invest in a massage chair after this update hits though, as my stress-levels already hit their peak when I play Thief compared to other classes... This update ain't going to remedy that.

[Axl.8924]

So whats better now? dagger or sword?Is it still S/D for killing? or is D/P king again?

[Elxdark.9702]

sword cleave nerf was unnecessary, the problem is LS not AA.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I actually like that they've shifted the focus somewhat, from AA being the primary source of damage to abilities taking that role... I feel like AAs has been the thiefs primary source of damage for the longest time now, after the initial burst.

For example, many thieves in WvW opt to just go for a Shadow Shot and an AA cycle for an opener, as it's more reliable than packing all your damage into a potential backstab that is likely to be stopped in some way... But to be honest, that might not have changed as they did buff Shadow Shot here as well... Granted, they upped the cost.

It makes sense in PvE for the AA to be strong as we don't have the sustained damage the other classes have due to our Initiative system, but in PvP I always kinda figured the damage should come from the abilities for the most part, where AAs is the supplemental damage, not the primary source of it.

It's still going to be optimal for the most part, except more emphasis on using Shadow Shot more; the Shadow Shot buff is so large that with only a 15% hit to the AA, it takes 5-6 AA's (generally) to start actually seeing the difference.

SS -> Heartseeker (stage 2) -> AA or two will probably be enough to kill most classes, as just these two skills will be about the same damage as CnD/Backstab into most builds.

[TwiceDead.1963]

@DeceiverX.8361

Yeah, I agree. Don't really have anything to add to that.

[Jana.6831]

@saerni.2584 said:Thief won’t get hit too hard in any patch that focuses on passives reductions because thief never had that many to begin with.

As far as CnD is concerned the initiative cost is a nice QoL change but doesn’t address the issue of how to promote D/D power compared to D/P

The choice is really solidly CnD but I think a more functionality change rather than initiative change is what’s needed. No, I think unblockable is a bad idea.

What I’d rather have is that CnD reduces the revealed timer by 0.5-1 second on a successful hit. Not enough to let someone spam it from stealth but one that makes the CnD and backstab and evade and CnD and backstab playstyle more fluid than it is now.

That buffs X/D builds and opens up more opportunities for skilled play oriented around landing a slow attack which first hits, lowers the revealed debuff and then stealths.

What they still need to do is to grant D/D access to CiS - either by putting it on CnD, or by putting CiS into master again.The traitmerges are the root of a lot of problems. We have been restriced big time and I do hope anet finally come around and realize it.

[Jana.6831]

In general: I have yet to see the changes of the other classes and, like in the traitmerge back in 2015, all of it depends on the interactions between classes/buids/sets. It's hard to say how the changes will pan out when only seeing the changes for thief. But granted; I don't know too much about other classes anyway. I guess what they wanted was D/P to go away from SS, BP, AA - Not sure if that will work out actually as SS is an OP skill. Even with the increased initative cost it will be spammed. I actually think things will stay the same for D/P. If they want to change the playstyle they'd have to shift towards BS being the main source of damage again and that would be when the problems really hit the fan, because of revealed skills/traits, because of the backstab cooldown, because most classes can dish out more damage than a backstab, because SA is ruined and so on.I like the proposed changes, but stuff has been going wrong for so long and they tweaked that much here and there that the probably best would be to travel back to 2015 and do things right from there.

[bq pd.2148]

@Jana.6831 said:In general: I have yet to see the changes of the other classes and, like in the traitmerge back in 2015, all of it depends on the interactions between classes/buids/sets. It's hard to say how the changes will pan out when only seeing the changes for thief. But granted; I don't know too much about other classes anyway. I guess what they wanted was D/P to go away from SS, BP, AA - Not sure if that will work out actually as SS is an OP skill. Even with the increased initative cost it will be spammed. I actually think things will stay the same for D/P. If they want to change the playstyle they'd have to shift towards BS being the main source of damage again and that would be when the problems really hit the fan, because of revealed skills/traits, because of the backstab cooldown, because most classes can dish out more damage than a backstab, because SA is ruined and so on.I like the proposed changes, but stuff has been going wrong for so long and they tweaked that much here and there that the probably best would be to travel back to 2015 and do things right from there.

SA might be ruined for d/d but it is perfect for stealth camping deadeye. every traitline is part of different builds, so changes to them might be good for one while it is a nerf for another build. for instance some d/d players want hidden thief to be split between stealth and speed, i want both on my deadeye tho and splitting them will be a huge nerf.

[saerni.2584]

Updates to the original post have been appended to the end of the thread in the pvp forums.

[Alatar.7364]

@saerni.2584 said:Updates to the original post have been appended to the end of the thread in the pvp forums.

I don't like it at all now.Hoped it would be just the Nerf to LS and Swords AA left alone, instead of nerfing both.

[Elxdark.9702]

bye s/d i told u xD

[babazhook.6805]

Thief received a number of nerfs across the board and they are significant. There were a few buffs in this latest proposal and I will speak to those directly.

Signet of Shadows: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW.

I really think this can be useful for certain builds and especially those not traiting up swiftness. While the majority of thief builds have swiftness , this at 20 seconds makes it a bit easier to use the Active which is a very good active for either power or condition builds. Blindness, weakness and Vuln on up to 5 targets at range. An advantage of the added speed as compared to swiftness is that it not a boon so can not be corrupted. I forsee this being used in more builds, albeit it will not be as common a goto as some other utilities.

Assassin's Signet: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW

This extra low cooldown is significant. 540 power increase for 5 seconds is a lot of extra damage especuilly if it can be coupled with quickness and might sources. I am pretty sure I will switch over to this in a number of builds.

Smoke Screen: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW

I do not see this being used much more even with lower cooldown. The biggest issue with the field is it static and thief needs to move around a lot. They generally can not stand stillin a fight. A rifle DE might find a use.

Dagger Storm: Reduced the cooldown from 90 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP and WvW

This ok. I just do not see Daggerstorm getting a lot of play but those that do use it will certainly appreciate a lower cooldown.

Hide in Shadows: Increased the base healing by 15% in PvP and WvW

The long cast is the major issue on this. I am not sure I will switch up on heals with the higher heal. I have one build that uses HIS.

Skelk Venom: Increased the venom heal per hit by 25% in PvP and WvW.

I really want to get some use out of this. I have tried a number of approaches and none were really satisfactory. I will try it with the larger heal so will reserve judgement. The main issue is while it a fat heal , that heal on a long cooldown. When you use the heal the added heals off your strikes can be healing when you at full health. I really think this needs a way in which one can apply those strike heals at will meaning you can hold off on using the charge until when needed.

On each of the signets we can get an added 20 percent cooldown on each. I really wish those bonuses to takin Signets of power a bit more relevant. The on kill aspect of the passives just does not syngergize very well . If you spike damage as example with assassins active and manage a kill while it running, you will not get the passive. The passive reward just does not give enough payback when compared to assassins fury or Twin fangs.

[omgdracula.6345]

So we aren't getting anything useful since they didn't decide to do the buffs =/