Do we need a skill/trait overhaul in PvE?

[Sylvari.2953]

So the last balance patch focused on PvP/WvW changes. Now that skills and traits are different in game modes, I think it's time for a PvE overhaul.

For example, skills that apply immobility/cripple usually have long cooldowns but these skills are not too useful in PvE and they are mostly only used for cc breaks.Necro's Spinal Shivers, it deals more damage on emenies with boons but most mobs have no boons at all, this skill should be reworked for PvE.Engineer's Glue Shot, it deals no damage at all but has a 25 sec cd because of immob.Guardian's Chains of Light, low damage but immobilizes so 20 sec cd... Boring!Dragonhunter's Hunter Ward, 45 sec cd on a weapon skill only because it cripples... Ouch.Elementalist's Static Field 40 sec cd just because it stuns? Meh.And so on.

What do you guys think? What kind of PvE skill/trait changes would you like to see?

[Orpheal.8263]

Definetely.. GW1 provided for this kind of thign "PvE Only Skills", cause it were simply skilsl that were designed and made to be powerful, and Fun to use, that were clear from begin on, that they woudl kind of be overpowered in PvP, so Anet excluded them from begin on out of Pvp and made them useable only for PvE..

That kind of thing needs to happen with PvE when they decidec to split the PvE effects fro mthe rest of the game, cause that would allow Anet then finjalyl to make the skilsl of all classes for PvE more fun and powerful, without that the other game modes woudl suffer the consequences of making the skills for Pve only significantly much better.

A PvE Only Skill basically would make it possible for ANet to implement "SKILL PROGRESSION" so that the more experienced you become with using your skills, that you can then also progress with your skills and level them basically up into more advanced versions that look then also more epically and powerful, than basically the 0815 noob version of the skills with that we begin with.

Example

Fireball ... Beginner Version.. progress with this skill in PvE and the PvE only advanced version would turn Fireball now into "Dragonfire", letting you shoot now a Fireball with bigger size, with longer range than the usual fireball, exploding with a bigger radius due to having a strogner shockwave now on impact, increasing this way the number of hit targets from 3 to 5.And when you progressed with Dragonfire then to the final PvE only Tier of Fireball, Dragonfire turns then into Dragonflame, which changes the skil lskil again into its last most epic looking form, where the fireball leaves now a mighty flame trail behind its flight path, causing foes that get in touch with that line of fire to receive Burning and the skil lhaving now much more velocity, lettign it fly much faster to its target, lettign it become unblockable for the target foe, or the foe gettign knocked back, if he tries to block that now much more powerful form of a normal Fireball, where a simply beginner's fireball would have been easily blockable.

Skill Progression that woudl add PvE Only versions of our current existing skills would be just a different way of classic Character progression, but its a mechanic that owuld be only possible to make happen, if ANet would completely split the effects from PvE out of the rest of the game, which woudl mean, that you'd have your progressed skills not for PvP or WvW accessable then

[Linken.6345]

Like this idea but would we like the content drought it would more then likely bring for them to implement it in a timely maner?

[Khisanth.2948]

@Mea.5491 said:So the last balance patch focused on PvP/WvW changes. Now that skills and traits are different in game modes, I think it's time for a PvE overhaul.

For example, skills that apply immobility/cripple usually have long cooldowns but these skills are not too useful in PvE and they are mostly only used for cc breaks.Necro's Spinal Shivers, it deals more damage on emenies with boons but most mobs have no boons at all, this skill should be reworked for PvE.Engineer's Glue Shot, it deals no damage at all but has a 25 sec cd because of immob.Guardian's Chains of Light, low damage but immobilizes so 20 sec cd... Boring!Dragonhunter's Hunter Ward, 45 sec cd on a weapon skill only because it cripples... Ouch.Elementalist's Static Field 40 sec cd just because it stuns? Meh.And so on.

What do you guys think? What kind of PvE skill/trait changes would you like to see?

Hunter's Ward is more than just cripple ...

[Sylvari.2953]

@Khisanth.2948 said:Hunter's Ward is more than just cripple ...

I know but the cooldown is way too long for what it does.

[Conncept.7638]

I still hold to the opinion that the game should move in the opposite direction. Meaning that PvE enemies should be given more of the mechanics players have, it would be a lot more healthy for the game, easier on the developers, and add much needed depth to GW2s shallow max DPS "dodge or die" PvE system.

This would include PvE mobs (and bosses to a lesser degree):Applying more conditionsApplying more boonsUsing support skillsUsing interrupts and control to actually interrupt and control instead of spamming them on an annoyingly low cooldownHaving a dodge skillPossibly having a downed state, assuming the system gets some improvements.The majority of DPS coming from a regularly used attack or chain (an auto-attack) instead of occasionally used burst cheeseAnd a myriad of other changes, too many to list here.

And no I'm not saying every mob should get everything a player can have on their loadout and that PvE should play just like PvP, but more like, that mobs should have a playstyle to them that responds and interracts with your own, and between a reasonable sampling of mobs, you should find a similar variety of interractions you would find when facing a player.

The closest the game comes to this is Silverwastes, which in my opinion still to this day has the best encounter design in the game. When an event spawns, you have a variety of mobs which fulfill different roles, and you can play through each wave and the event differently depending on what your character does and what the other characters participating in the event do. I, for example, found my calling playing condi-builds in SW, builds which were considered worthless at the time in lieu of berserker builds, because all of the events included mobs with the "heavy armor" tag, which I could kill with my condi-build faster than any zerker could. But there were also definitely mobs those berserkers excelled against, as well as mobs for assassins to target, tight spawns for AoE, and other spawns which most builds could feel powerful and unique fighting against. The PvE in this area was made so that everyone would have something to do, and if the group completing an event lacked some mechanic or other, they could take care of their specialties first and then gang up on the mobs they had a collective weakness against. Now it still lacked a lot of things, boons, conditions, etc., but it came closer to the ideal encounter than any area before or after it.

[Khisanth.2948]

@"Conncept.7638" said:I still hold to the opinion that the game should move in the opposite direction. Meaning that PvE enemies should be given more of the mechanics players have, it would be a lot more healthy for the game, easier on the developers, and add much needed depth to GW2s shallow max DPS "dodge or die" PvE system.

This would include PvE mobs (and bosses to a lesser degree):Applying more conditionsApplying more boonsUsing support skillsUsing interrupts and control to actually interrupt and control instead of spamming them on an annoyingly low cooldownHaving a dodge skillPossibly having a downed state, assuming the system gets some improvements.The majority of DPS coming from a regularly used attack or chain (an auto-attack) instead of occasionally used burst cheeseAnd a myriad of other changes, too many to list here.

And no I'm not saying every mob should get everything a player can have on their loadout and that PvE should play just like PvP, but more like, that mobs should have a playstyle to them that responds and interracts with your own, and between a reasonable sampling of mobs, you should find a similar variety of interractions you would find when facing a player.

I am not sure if the concept of cooldowns even applies to PvP mobs. Except for things triggered at specific health percentages everything else seems pretty much spammable. For example the champion itzel HP's two hit combo that hits very hard and stuns would be expected to have some sort of cooldown but it just depends on proximity to trigger. It is perfectly happy to just stand in place and spam the combo as long as the person it is aggroed on stays in range and alive.

The closest the game comes to this is Silverwastes, which in my opinion still to this day has the best encounter design in the game. When an event spawns, you have a variety of mobs which fulfill different roles, and you can play through each wave and the event differently depending on what your character does and what the other characters participating in the event do. I, for example, found my calling playing condi-builds in SW, builds which were considered worthless at the time in lieu of berserker builds, because all of the events included mobs with the "heavy armor" tag, which I could kill with my condi-build faster than any zerker could. But there were also definitely mobs those berserkers excelled against, as well as mobs for assassins to target, tight spawns for AoE, and other spawns which most builds could feel powerful and unique fighting against. The PvE in this area was made so that everyone would have something to do, and if the group completing an event lacked some mechanic or other, they could take care of their specialties first and then gang up on the mobs they had a collective weakness against. Now it still lacked a lot of things, boons, conditions, etc., but it came closer to the ideal encounter than any area before or after it.

That sounds good in theory but in practice it doesn't seem to have accomplished anything useful.

[Ashen.2907]

@"Conncept.7638" said:I still hold to the opinion that the game should move in the opposite direction. Meaning that PvE enemies should be given more of the mechanics players have, it would be a lot more healthy for the game, easier on the developers, and add much needed depth to GW2s shallow max DPS "dodge or die" PvE system.

This would include PvE mobs (and bosses to a lesser degree):Applying more conditionsApplying more boonsUsing support skillsUsing interrupts and control to actually interrupt and control instead of spamming them on an annoyingly low cooldownHaving a dodge skillPossibly having a downed state, assuming the system gets some improvements.The majority of DPS coming from a regularly used attack or chain (an auto-attack) instead of occasionally used burst cheeseAnd a myriad of other changes, too many to list here.

And no I'm not saying every mob should get everything a player can have on their loadout and that PvE should play just like PvP, but more like, that mobs should have a playstyle to them that responds and interracts with your own, and between a reasonable sampling of mobs, you should find a similar variety of interractions you would find when facing a player.

The closest the game comes to this is Silverwastes, which in my opinion still to this day has the best encounter design in the game. When an event spawns, you have a variety of mobs which fulfill different roles, and you can play through each wave and the event differently depending on what your character does and what the other characters participating in the event do. I, for example, found my calling playing condi-builds in SW, builds which were considered worthless at the time in lieu of berserker builds, because all of the events included mobs with the "heavy armor" tag, which I could kill with my condi-build faster than any zerker could. But there were also definitely mobs those berserkers excelled against, as well as mobs for assassins to target, tight spawns for AoE, and other spawns which most builds could feel powerful and unique fighting against. The PvE in this area was made so that everyone would have something to do, and if the group completing an event lacked some mechanic or other, they could take care of their specialties first and then gang up on the mobs they had a collective weakness against. Now it still lacked a lot of things, boons, conditions, etc., but it came closer to the ideal encounter than any area before or after it.

All of this except for downed state.

[Conncept.7638]

@"Khisanth.2948" said:I am not sure if the concept of cooldowns even applies to PvP mobs. Except for things triggered at specific health percentages everything else seems pretty much spammable. For example the champion itzel HP's two hit combo that hits very hard and stuns would be expected to have some sort of cooldown but it just depends on proximity to trigger. It is perfectly happy to just stand in place and spam the combo as long as the person it is aggroed on stays in range and alive.

No they do, I wish I could point you to the post but the old forums are gone, but when Power Block was added to the game, players asked exactly this exact question, and the dev said that because most mob abilities are borrowed player character abilities, they do have cooldowns.

The closest the game comes to this is Silverwastes, which in my opinion still to this day has the best encounter design in the game. When an event spawns, you have a variety of mobs which fulfill different roles, and you can play through each wave and the event differently depending on what your character does and what the other characters participating in the event do. I, for example, found my calling playing condi-builds in SW, builds which were considered worthless at the time in lieu of berserker builds, because all of the events included mobs with the "heavy armor" tag, which I could kill with my condi-build faster than any zerker could. But there were also definitely mobs those berserkers excelled against, as well as mobs for assassins to target, tight spawns for AoE, and other spawns which most builds could feel powerful and unique fighting against. The PvE in this area was made so that everyone would have something to do, and if the group completing an event lacked some mechanic or other, they could take care of their specialties first and then gang up on the mobs they had a collective weakness against. Now it still lacked a lot of things, boons, conditions, etc., but it came closer to the ideal encounter than any area before or after it.

That sounds good in theory but in practice it doesn't seem to have accomplished anything useful.

I don't see how; it provided much more variety of play than the remainder of the base game, or anything in PoF and HoT, and struck a successful blow against GW2s biggest detraction, the max-dps dodge or die meta that defines most PvE content. Sounds pretty useful to me, seeing as this is a game and it's only "use" is to be enjoyable.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Conncept.7638 said:

@"Khisanth.2948" said:I am not sure if the concept of cooldowns even applies to PvP mobs. Except for things triggered at specific health percentages everything else seems pretty much spammable. For example the champion itzel HP's two hit combo that hits very hard and stuns would be expected to have some sort of cooldown but it just depends on proximity to trigger. It is perfectly happy to just stand in place and spam the combo as long as the person it is aggroed on stays in range and alive.

No they do, I wish I could point you to the post but the old forums are gone, but when Power Block was added to the game, players asked exactly this exact question, and the dev said that because most mob abilities are borrowed player character abilities, they do have cooldowns.

The closest the game comes to this is Silverwastes, which in my opinion still to this day has the best encounter design in the game. When an event spawns, you have a variety of mobs which fulfill different roles, and you can play through each wave and the event differently depending on what your character does and what the other characters participating in the event do. I, for example, found my calling playing condi-builds in SW, builds which were considered worthless at the time in lieu of berserker builds, because all of the events included mobs with the "heavy armor" tag, which I could kill with my condi-build faster than any zerker could. But there were also definitely mobs those berserkers excelled against, as well as mobs for assassins to target, tight spawns for AoE, and other spawns which most builds could feel powerful and unique fighting against. The PvE in this area was made so that everyone would have something to do, and if the group completing an event lacked some mechanic or other, they could take care of their specialties first and then gang up on the mobs they had a collective weakness against. Now it still lacked a lot of things, boons, conditions, etc., but it came closer to the ideal encounter than any area before or after it.

That sounds good in theory but in practice it doesn't seem to have accomplished anything useful.

I don't see how; it provided much more variety of play than the remainder of the base game, or anything in PoF and HoT, and struck a successful blow against GW2s biggest detraction, the max-dps dodge or die meta that defines most PvE content. Sounds pretty useful to me, seeing as this is a game and it's only "use" is to be enjoyable.

So, you think the Silver Wastes offers much more variety of play by virtue of its "variety of mobs which fulfill different roles", huh? I'm pretty sure every enemy type present in the Silver Wastes is also present in the HoT maps as well as a great many more. Am I misunderstanding you here? I fail to see how HoT/PoF enemies don't give you everything you say you want.

Further, the "dodge or die" meta, as you call it, is only a thing in instanced PvE. You seem to be speaking of open world play. You can kick butt in open world literally however you like. Here's some evidence:

Celestial Tempest (tanky bruiser/healer) vs. Mushroom Queen

Viper Mirage ("dodge or die") vs. Mushroom Queen

Yeah, the Mirage did it considerably faster, but the Tempest doesn't even break a sweat and still beats the timer with several minutes to spare. Play it your way. That's what open world is all about and where GW2 really shines!

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

A lot of abilities have comically short durations and/or gigantic cooldowns for no reason in PVE (most defensive skills, pretty much all significant CC) because they're balanced for use in PVP settings against enemy players.

[Ayakaru.6583]

The surface world is fine,But underwater needs its own set of traits and skills, (plus a legend for revs, thats specialized fow UW)

[Sylvari.2953]

@"Conncept.7638" said:I still hold to the opinion that the game should move in the opposite direction. Meaning that PvE enemies should be given more of the mechanics players have, it would be a lot more healthy for the game, easier on the developers, and add much needed depth to GW2s shallow max DPS "dodge or die" PvE system.

This would include PvE mobs (and bosses to a lesser degree):Applying more conditionsApplying more boonsUsing support skillsUsing interrupts and control to actually interrupt and control instead of spamming them on an annoyingly low cooldownHaving a dodge skillPossibly having a downed state, assuming the system gets some improvements.The majority of DPS coming from a regularly used attack or chain (an auto-attack) instead of occasionally used burst cheeseAnd a myriad of other changes, too many to list here.

And no I'm not saying every mob should get everything a player can have on their loadout and that PvE should play just like PvP, but more like, that mobs should have a playstyle to them that responds and interracts with your own, and between a reasonable sampling of mobs, you should find a similar variety of interractions you would find when facing a player.

The closest the game comes to this is Silverwastes, which in my opinion still to this day has the best encounter design in the game. When an event spawns, you have a variety of mobs which fulfill different roles, and you can play through each wave and the event differently depending on what your character does and what the other characters participating in the event do. I, for example, found my calling playing condi-builds in SW, builds which were considered worthless at the time in lieu of berserker builds, because all of the events included mobs with the "heavy armor" tag, which I could kill with my condi-build faster than any zerker could. But there were also definitely mobs those berserkers excelled against, as well as mobs for assassins to target, tight spawns for AoE, and other spawns which most builds could feel powerful and unique fighting against. The PvE in this area was made so that everyone would have something to do, and if the group completing an event lacked some mechanic or other, they could take care of their specialties first and then gang up on the mobs they had a collective weakness against. Now it still lacked a lot of things, boons, conditions, etc., but it came closer to the ideal encounter than any area before or after it.

Back in beta, mobs "ran out" of our ground AoEs and people were really upset about it so Anet changed it back to what we have now. I like your idea but it depends on how Anet would execute these changes because they might scare many PvE players away. I agree that the mobs in SW are awesome and I wouldn't mind more stuff like that on other maps.

[Galaa.8475]

in pve? yes, but to certain classes. when i started playing this game only seven months ago. i quickly seen how "squishy" all the classes are. when i got to a point of understanding the classes mechanics and the game better i tried to compensate the lack of survivability by adding armor and runes that increased my toughness and hit points. that did help a few classes to survive better. the ones it didn't help was thief, eng, mesmer, and revenant. also these four classes had the lowest dps. i only pve and solo. so when a class cant make it after several attempts at different builds, its time for them to go and make room for classes that can make it.

i think mesmer,thief and eng just need a survivability boost in pve. revenant needs a complete overhaul to improve the class dps and survivability. anyway, thats my thoughts so you guys can start slammin away.........now!

[GrubySzymek.1362]

PvP/WvW balance patch doesn't change functionality of skills, only numbers - like damage, cooldowns etc. Balance changing functionality of skills between modes will never happen.

[Chay.7852]

@"Conncept.7638" said:I still hold to the opinion that the game should move in the opposite direction. Meaning that PvE enemies should be given more of the mechanics players have, it would be a lot more healthy for the game, easier on the developers, and add much needed depth to GW2s shallow max DPS "dodge or die" PvE system.

This would include PvE mobs (and bosses to a lesser degree):Applying more conditionsApplying more boonsUsing support skillsUsing interrupts and control to actually interrupt and control instead of spamming them on an annoyingly low cooldownHaving a dodge skillPossibly having a downed state, assuming the system gets some improvements.The majority of DPS coming from a regularly used attack or chain (an auto-attack) instead of occasionally used burst cheeseAnd a myriad of other changes, too many to list here.

And no I'm not saying every mob should get everything a player can have on their loadout and that PvE should play just like PvP, but more like, that mobs should have a playstyle to them that responds and interracts with your own, and between a reasonable sampling of mobs, you should find a similar variety of interractions you would find when facing a player.

The closest the game comes to this is Silverwastes, which in my opinion still to this day has the best encounter design in the game. When an event spawns, you have a variety of mobs which fulfill different roles, and you can play through each wave and the event differently depending on what your character does and what the other characters participating in the event do. I, for example, found my calling playing condi-builds in SW, builds which were considered worthless at the time in lieu of berserker builds, because all of the events included mobs with the "heavy armor" tag, which I could kill with my condi-build faster than any zerker could. But there were also definitely mobs those berserkers excelled against, as well as mobs for assassins to target, tight spawns for AoE, and other spawns which most builds could feel powerful and unique fighting against. The PvE in this area was made so that everyone would have something to do, and if the group completing an event lacked some mechanic or other, they could take care of their specialties first and then gang up on the mobs they had a collective weakness against. Now it still lacked a lot of things, boons, conditions, etc., but it came closer to the ideal encounter than any area before or after it.

I like your ideas ;) and something like this was the nightmare tower - enemies who defended themselves,who dodged, who got rezzed, whom you had to finish before they got rezzed. I loved it but lots of ppl I know didnt like it and look now at the events that remained in the open world (the Toxic-Alliance stuff) - almost noone does them. So.. while im all for it, i guess many would complain afterwards because its too hard.

[Etterwyn.5263]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:PvP/WvW balance patch doesn't change functionality of skills, only numbers - like damage, cooldowns etc. Balance changing functionality of skills between modes will never happen.

A cooldown overhaul would be ideal. I don't often wish that X did Y, I just wish I could X more often. =)

[HyperLooser.2698]

Theres way too many pretty much " Designed for pvp by default" skills. Now with recent PvE/PVP etc. splits, pve needs to get pve only changes to those pvp designed skills. As many have said such skills mostly deal no damage and have very high cd's just for some status effect, which in pve doesn't do much. Not to mention many higher content mobs have quite high said status effect duration reduction, that these statuses basically don't even have any effect on them.

[Raizel.8175]

I don't get why you all are stating that so called "pvp-skills" have no use in pve. Especially cc is very important in pve and let's be honest: we barely have any kind of cd-management in pve so you may as well have some with cc-skills.

[Xantaria.8726]

@"Raizel.8175" said:I don't get why you all are stating that so called "pvp-skills" have no use in pve. Especially cc is very important in pve and let's be honest: we barely have any kind of cd-management in pve so you may as well have some with cc-skills.

I am afraid thats rather not true. In most cases where you actual have to cc in order to beat the enemy (which would be Dungeons, Fractals and Raids) the cc is managed mostly by supporter-classes, namely Chrono being the strongest, followed by druid, which are enough to cc almost every boss with just them. And if you dont have those classes or need more, DH, Scourge, Holo and thief have very good cc skills without wasting skill slots. Most other bosses in the open world dont require any sort of cc or cc managment in order to defeat them, maybe 1 or 2 of the bountys or world bosses like ds , but even if needed, most cc bars are (sadly for ds) broken before you can even look at the bar changing.So why take a utility skill with you that only provides cc and nothing else, coming with a 45sec cooldown? Its not usefull if you could instead take several other utility skills in form of dmg, buffs or even fimiliarl cc but with half the cooldown, just cause instead of a knockback its a daze (which doesnt matter for mobs with a defiance bar since they cant be pushed). This in fact needs some balance, and not only the cc skills. Many damage skills or support skills got nerfed over the years cause they where to powerful in pvp, yet underperforming in pve.

[Nephalem.8921]

@"Raizel.8175" said:I don't get why you all are stating that so called "pvp-skills" have no use in pve. Especially cc is very important in pve and let's be honest: we barely have any kind of cd-management in pve so you may as well have some with cc-skills.

Yes. Some so called "pvp-skills" are also much more powerful in pve than in pvp. Rangers entangle roots for example don't get destroyed and allow a really long root duration on top of high breakbar damage on 5 targets.Engineer's Glue Shot isn't that good in pvp either. Condi engi just needs help in all game modes now. The design was probably to hit a target with glueshot for a save blowtorch but hitting it is just not that threatening anymore.In another thread I read that Holo is super squishie open world. That maybe wouldn't have happened if the player would've used Holo's cc skills. Engineer in general has access to so many blinds that mobs without a breakbar can't even hit you most of the time.

@Xantaria.8726 said:So why take a utility skill with you that only provides cc and nothing else, coming with a 45sec cooldown? Its not usefull if you could instead take several other utility skills in form of dmg, buffs or even fimiliarl cc but with half the cooldown, just cause instead of a knockback its a daze (which doesnt matter for mobs with a defiance bar since they cant be pushed). This in fact needs some balance, and not only the cc skills. Many damage skills or support skills got nerfed over the years cause they where to powerful in pvp, yet underperforming in pve.

Are you referring to druid glyphs? Because the push and daze ones have a similiar cd and both are used quite regularly. There are only a few really weak cc skills left like slick shoes. It was really good but got butchered because anet really hates engis and don't want them to be good at anything. Most people underestimate cc skills in pve anyways. Sloth and Samarog for example. Saw the raid tournanment? The teams annhilated breakbars with low man groups while pugs fail that regularly without stacking weavers.Just druid and chrono cc are usually not enough when you have decent dps in fractals. You will run into cd issues at MAMA for example.

[Xantaria.8726]

Are you referring to druid glyphs? Because the push and daze ones have a similiar cd and both are used quite regularly. There are only a few really weak cc skills left like slick shoes. It was really good but got butchered because anet really hates engis and don't want them to be good at anything. Most people underestimate cc skills in pve anyways. Sloth and Samarog for example. Saw the raid tournanment? The teams annhilated breakbars with low man groups while pugs fail that regularly without stacking weavers.

I am not saying that we need more cc skills, rather the opposite. We are mostly covered when it comes to cc, which is why i said that taking a 45 cd cc skill with nothing else in it is rather useless^^. The reason why pugs struggle with cc at samarog is not cause we dont have enough cc skills, but rather the regular case of people not knowing where they can get cc from.Nah i dont mean glyphes, they are usefull. They have only a 20 sec cd, and in addition to the cc they grant a little healing + stacks of might. They are a rather good examble of how some utility skills should work.

Just druid and chrono cc are usually not enough when you have decent dps in fractals. You will run into cd issues at MAMA for example.

Depends on your group. If your dmg is good you hardly need more cc besides the skills a druid, bs and chrono have. Otherwise you can get some more due dhs, holos, mirages etc.