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Will anything happen to make Ascalon great again?


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Basically the title says it all.I find it extremly infuriating, that Ascalon became the mess that it is today. GW1 players started there, we all remember that it wasn't that scorched wasteland before. And now all the characters, most being good people, are bound in an endless cycle of reliving the terrors of war each and every day, while being scoffed at by the charr. I don't think they deserve it.(Same thing with the poor sunspears btw. I just started playing after i finished PoF half a year ago, played the new frac, and hated every second of it. It's like Anet hates humans.)

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I suppose our commander will eventually clear the ghosts from Ascalon, with Rytlock's help, no doubt.Then the Charr will be the legit rulers of Ascalon, but they also will have no more reasons to fight everyday. They will feel extremely awkward because of that.

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Then the Charr will be the legit rulers of Ascalon, but they also will have no more reasons to fight everyday. They will feel extremely awkward because of that.

Not only would I dislike the Ascalonias being wiped completly, it actually benefits the nature of the charr to somehow bring them back. That way, charr can have a fragile "peace" with their new neighbours, but also potential for conflict.If it were up to me, I'd say make the Ascalonias kick those furballs all the way back to the northern borders of the map, but that won't happen. Sadly :p

But since the foefire effect seems to be some kind of curse, I think there is enough room for some artistic freedom besides simply wiping the remnants.

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Now, when you say you want to make Ascalon great again, do you want it to become a human kingdom again, or make it a decent place for the charr with the ghosts put to rest? Because those are two very different goals, and I'm sorry to say that outside of Ebonhawke, the human kingdom of Ascalon has fallen. Rurik saw that, while Adelburn did not, and Adelburn was so blinded by hatred, that he forced his entire citizenry to fight forever, and not even recognise the difference between a charr, human or asura. Let the past be the past, and perhaps we'll eventually find an end to the ghosts, but something major will change if it does.

Now, if you want to talk about Ascalon as occupied by the charr, I think the kingdom is pretty good as it is now. Much of the greenery has returned, and aside from the eternal ghost threat (which is likely to stay for a long time), they seem to have settled pretty well all across the countryside, and as a charr nation, they seem to be well-settled. I don't think they can make it much greater, lest they find an incredibly effective war tool.

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@"Rognik.2579" said:Now, when you say you want to make Ascalon great again, do you want it to become a human kingdom again, or make it a decent place for the charr with the ghosts put to rest? Because those are two very different goals, and I'm sorry to say that outside of Ebonhawke, the human kingdom of Ascalon has fallen. Rurik saw that

The thing is, this happened before the Charr got retconned.Ascalon being overrun by ferocious beasts may be sad, but it makes a nice, tragic plot. Ascalon being taken over by concious creatures, that basically make fun of the population that are bound by an eternal curse feels like a spit n the face for me, as most of my GW1 characters have been Ascalonians. It just doesn't fell "right" to me. I do not ask for Blizzardification, but a little less grim and W40k-ish would be nice.

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Didn't Ascalon originally belong to the Charr? Then the humans came in and kicked them out. The Charr ruled under the Flame Legion were super awful and evil, but I thought it was established as far back as GW1 that the Charr assaulted Ascalon in part to reclaim their homeland.

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@"Svennis.3852" said:Didn't Ascalon originally belong to the Charr? Then the humans came in a kicked them out. The Charr ruled under the Flame Legion were super awful and evil, but I thought it was established as far back as GW1 that the Charr assaulted Ascalon in part to reclaim their homeland.

^ This

I'm just worried it wouldn't stop at Ascalon. Maybe warbands would split up from the rest to get more human territory now that the main threat is gone, peace is fragile after all no?

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@"Svennis.3852" said:Didn't Ascalon originally belong to the Charr? Then the humans came in and kicked them out. The Charr ruled under the Flame Legion were super awful and evil, but I thought it was established as far back as GW1 that the Charr assaulted Ascalon in part to reclaim their homeland.

All of that was GW2 era. Back in GW1 we didn't even know that there were separate Legions- as far as we were told, all charr had always been burning sacrifices alive. The only motive we were provided was that they were bloodthirsty and served at the whim of malevolent entities with a grudge against humanity.

We were told in Prophecies that charr came from 'the north', and in EotN we got a region called the Charr Homelands (what GW2 renamed as the Blood Legion Homelands). Never any indication that they'd been in Ascalon before humans, although we did know they'd been launching raids into Ascalon for centuries.

(Incidentally, you can argue that Ascalon originally belonged to the grawl, not the charr. Even the GW2 lore grants that they didn't start in Ascalon; they expanded into it and subjugated whatever races were living there beforehand.)

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@"Svennis.3852" said:Didn't Ascalon originally belong to the Charr? Then the humans came in and kicked them out. The Charr ruled under the Flame Legion were super awful and evil, but I thought it was established as far back as GW1 that the Charr assaulted Ascalon in part to reclaim their homeland.

Pfft. That's all just Charr propaganda. It has always belonged to the humans and will be once again. DEATH TO THE FALSE RULERS!

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@"Svennis.3852" said:Didn't Ascalon originally belong to the Charr? Then the humans came in and kicked them out. The Charr ruled under the Flame Legion were super awful and evil, but I thought it was established as far back as GW1 that the Charr assaulted Ascalon in part to reclaim their homeland.

No. Charr did conquer Ascalon before humans who conquered it from charr, but it wasn't theirs originally.

Charr took it from others (given the hints we see, from grawl and dwarves) and claimed it for themselves. Less than a generation later, humans took it from charr and held it for over a thousand years.

So the charr held Ascalon for less than a century.

Sources:

No longer clamoring over the same territories, the unified Charr spread throughout the northern reaches of their homeland, and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains. The Charr subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them within their territorieshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

The grawl are native to Tyria, and Ascalon in particular. The earliest mention of them is found in early charr military tributes that predate the arrival of humans in the area. In these annals, the charr are always portrayed as victors with the defeated grawl pulling the charr commanders in great chariots. The charr dominated the grawl, forcing them into the Shiverpeak and Blazeridge Mountains and beyond, where they lived at a subsistence level.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Planet_of_the_Grawl

"Somewhere in these depths rests the legendary Kathandrax's Crusher. Kathandrax Steelsoul was a great Dwarven hero who repelled the Charr time and again. The Charr came to view Kathandrax with respect, and his weapon with fear."https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Swithin_Nye

And lastly, in Edge of Destiny novel, Logan, Caithe, and Rytlock stumble upon an ancient dwarven town underneath southern Ascalon not far from Ebonhawke and ogre territory (so somewhere underneath Fields of Ruin is most likely).

Given all this, it is clear that Ascalon truely belongs to the grawl, not charr nor humans.

MakeAscalonGrawlAgain

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@"Svennis.3852" said:Didn't Ascalon originally belong to the Charr? Then the humans came in and kicked them out. The Charr ruled under the Flame Legion were super awful and evil, but I thought it was established as far back as GW1 that the Charr assaulted Ascalon in part to reclaim their homeland.

All of that was GW2 era. Back in GW1 we didn't even know that there
were
separate Legions- as far as we were told, all charr had always been burning sacrifices alive. The only motive we were provided was that they were bloodthirsty and served at the whim of malevolent entities with a grudge against humanity.

We were told in Prophecies that charr came from 'the north', and in EotN we got a region called the Charr Homelands (what GW2 renamed as the Blood Legion Homelands). Never any indication that they'd been in Ascalon before humans, although we did know they'd been launching raids into Ascalon for centuries.

(Incidentally, you can argue that Ascalon originally belonged to the grawl, not the charr. Even the GW2 lore grants that they didn't start in Ascalon; they expanded into it and subjugated whatever races were living there beforehand.)

It is technically from The Ecology of the Charr, which was released shortly after Eye of the North's release (October 2007 iirc); years before GW2. So one could argue it was GW1 era.

Though it wasn't really stated to be grawl territory before the charr until Planet of the Grawl, which came out late 2011.

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While no one can say with absolute certainty what the future holds, we can find some arguments, that make it appear unlikely that the charr will be pushed out of Ascalon by the ghosts of the foefire. Namely:

  • In the 241 years since the foefire (1331 AE) the ghost have been trapped reliving the same moment, the same fight, not learning, not changing. They have been consistently been defeated by charr forces and there's no sign of that changing.
  • In fact, there have been great technological improvements since 1325 AE. Ghostbore Ammunitions®, ghost containment units, turrets and anti ghost batteries have greatly diminished the need for active personnel dealing with ghosts.
  • Not only has there been less need for charr on ghost duty, there have been more charr overall in Ascalon. In 1090 the foefire failed to eradicate the charr. Since that time the charr population of the Iron Legion, but also the other legions has only multiplied. The number of human ghosts has stayed largely constant and even decreased a little in 1327 AE when Rytlock made his first attempt to pull the ghosts into the mists. As time moves on Adelberns final gambit will become less and less relevant.
  • Other threats to the charr have been contained or eliminated aswell. The separatists never really stood a chance. See this thread for likely dimensions of population matched against each other. Add to that, that Ebonhawke has made peace with the legions and Caudecus, who financed the separatists, having died and the separatist movement may have gone inactive.

In addition to these points, the current leadership of the Iron Legion seems very interested in good relations with Kryta, especially since humans have entered an economic relationship with the legions. There is one major trader artery over the shiverpeaks. Between Foewatch Camp and Splintercrest Fort there seems to be a mutual assistance agreement between charr and humans against the branded and the ogres.The brand may even weaken since Kralkatorrik has moved much further south than he did previously. Then again, his newly acquired magic may increase the brand's power. However, where there were originally only the sentinels watching over the brand there are now the Fallen Angels watching their northern border, Sentinels watching the Brand in general, Tribune Steeleye keeping the eastern territories accessible, the Pact consisting of Priory, Vigil and Order keeping the dragon minions in check.Flame legions has likely capitulated between 1325 and 1330 AE.

In a situation like this, the only thing that could jeopardize the charr's success is the charr themselves. There are some ways this could concievably happen.The charr could unite under a Khan Ur. Depending on who that is, they might do something stupid because of it. Or the legions turn to infighting (again).

In any case, the Kingdom of Ascalon is unlikely to ever return. Even if you magically got rid of all the charr, the ghosts would just kill anybody who entered their realm, since the curse doesn't terminate through passing time nor does it end when the charr are gone. The place would just become a dead land where retarded ghosts attack anyone who enters, because to them, any living creature is a charr.

And lastly. The retcon issue:

! > Common useage: Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is a literary device in which established facts in a fictional work are adjusted, ignored, or contradicted by a subsequently published work which breaks continuity with the former.! > Intended meaning: Adding information to the back story of a fictional character or world, without invalidating that which had gone before. -Damian Cugley! 1078 AE: Eye of the North. Pyre starts his rebellion against Flame.! 1079 AE: Guild Wars Beyond episodes. Salma defeats White Mantle; becomes Queen of Kryta. (GW1 ends here.)! 1080 AE: Adelbern recalls Ebon Vanguard, Ebonhawke founded. (Rurik already took half the population, now it just hit rock bottom.)! 1090 AE: Charr conquer Ascalon City, Foefire happens.! 1105 AE: Durmand Priory established, New Krytan becomes universal writing system. (Even the Charr adopt it.)! 1112 AE: Black Citadel erected on ruins of Rin. (With its own territory and capital, the Iron Legion was finally able to research on its own.)! 1116 AE: Kalla Scorchrazor leads rebellion against Flame Legion, succeeds.(Less access to magic, the Legions need an edge over Flame. Adopt dwarven technology.)! 1219 AE: (Sea of Sorrows) 107 years after the foundation of the Black Citadel. Zhaitan awakens; causes great flood.! 1220 AE: The construction of Divinity's Reach as the new capital of Kryta began, after the ministry was founded and the pirates had settled in Lion's Arch.! 1256 AE: Prince Edair reignites conflict with the charr, who until then were considering peace with Ebonhawke. Great krytan blockade of Lion's Arch.! 1316 AE: Jennah of House Doric becomes Queen of Kryta.! 1324 AE: (Ghosts of Ascalon) Peace negotiations between charr and humans.! 1325 AE: Orders unite against Zhaitan (Guild Wars 2 begins here.)! From this timeline we can conclude, that the added lore doesn't contradict previously established lore. It does add more information.! This fulfills one of two mutually exclusive exclusive definitions of retcon. The former has a negative connotation, because disregard for a worlds continuity does hurt immersion in the long term.! The second kind is necessary if you want to continue any type of narrative where you want to introduce additional information, backstory, or simply advance the plot.! Thanks to this unsatisfactory situation, please clarify what kind of retcon and if you think it's bad.

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@"Lahmia.2193" said:

Pfft. That's all just Charr propaganda.

"We killed our gods with machines of war" or something like that. Last time I played GW1, it was my character and the awesome companions he gathered along the way that killed the last titans in tyria. Together with Adelbern by the way :p

! From this timeline we can conclude, that the added lore doesn't contradict previously established lore. It does add more information.! This fulfills one of two mutually exclusive exclusive definitions of retcon. The former has a negative connotation, because disregard for a worlds continuity does hurt immersion in the long term.! The second kind is necessary if you want to continue any type of narrative where you want to introduce additional information, backstory, or simply advance the plot.! Thanks to this unsatisfactory situation, please clarify what kind of retcon and if you think it's bad.

While you may be right objectively, it's how the original game gave us information, that leaves a sour taste after we got the new one.I mean, it is highly unlikely, that Ascalonians never met a talking charr. Or any Charr behaviour that suggested them to be concious beings. Even in EotN, if I remember correctly, the group is suprised that Brandor could speak.The game made us believe (deliberatly), that Charr are ferocious monsters. So even while the given information might not interfere on an objective level, it completely twists what the game made you believe in a rather non-plausible way. And thats what I call retcon, fully intending it to sound negative.
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@Imba.9451 said:

@"Lahmia.2193" said: This"We killed our gods with machines of war" or something like that. Last time I played GW1, it was my character and the awesome companions he gathered along the way that killed the last titans in tyria. Together with Adelbern by the way :p

@"Castigator.3470" said: This.While you may be right objectively, it's how the original game gave us information, that leaves a sour taste after we got the new one.I mean, it is highly unlikely, that Ascalonians never met a talking charr. Or any Charr behaviour that suggested them to be concious beings. Even in EotN, if I remember correctly, the group is suprised that Brandor could speak.The game made us believe (deliberatly), that Charr are ferocious monsters. So even while the given information might not interfere on an objective level, it completely twists what the game made you believe in a rather non-plausible way. And thats what I call retcon, fully intending it to sound negative.

While the last Titans fell to our adventurers, if we recall EoTN, this wasn't the end of Flame Legion's attempts at idolatry as a means of social control. Remember how Hierophant Burntsoul tried to establish destroyers as the new focus of worship? Last time I checked destroyers are a lot easier to kill than Titans.And that was just the new fad of 1078 AE. I suspect that the Shamans had a few more objects of mandatory worship n the 38 years until Scorchrazor's rebellion.And then some in the 206 years Flame Legion had to come up with new types of bovine excrement.I mean technically Flame Legion is still building their Effigies in 1325. At one point they will have attempted to force Effigy worship down the throats of the other legions. Not to mention Gaheron appointing himself as a god in recent times. Given enough attempts at decieving the charr, I can see why they are so opposed to worship in general.So while the Titan claim is likely propaganda, it's not like there was a shortage of other Flame Legion "gods" for the other charr to kill.

! About the retcon part: I pondered a bit on that. I mean, had you known that the charr are sentient beings, I suspect many would have had at least mixed feelings when farming charr for their
. I mean technically the player character was hunting and killing sentient creatures for the charr hides to give them to a collector and get your fur squares. Plus, we didn't learn why the charr and Ascalonians were at war. Only that they were. The NPCs told us charr were these evil monsters and we had no reason to disbelieve them, as we were dropped right into the story.! Remember how Guild wars Prophecies started? King Adelbern was preparing another offensive into charr territory. To quote:! >
said:! >! >"I've been looking for you everywhere, (Character name). The king has ordered a new offensive against the Charr. This is your chance for glory and adventure, but you'll need to know more about your craft before going north of the Wall.! After you complete your profession training, you hear rumours of charr preparing an attack. You'll meet Vatlaaw Doomtooth, who was scouting the area south of the wall. The searing happens and two years later you find your character in the ruins of Ascalon. At this point you see that the charr have managed to breach the great wall and turn Ascalon into a wasteland via magical nuke. Ascalonians have been fighting for their lives for two years, until finally Prince Rurik decides that the humans are slowly losing the war and evacuated half of the remaining population over the Shiverpeaks. To this day, the humans of Gendarran fields and eastern Kryta are ethnically Ascalonians.!! Also, there is a big indicator that the charr were not just beast like wolves, bears, or mountain lions. They have names. Quite a few in fact. Do you think the Ascalonians named each charr they encountered? Swag the Lasher, Drub Gorefang, Slur Scharchest, Maul Riptear, by the way, remember that Maul and the other charr necromancers drop their armor, which is named
? Does that indicate their legion even back in Prophecies?! Then there's the fact that they use class abilities.!! We even Speak to a charr questgiver back in Nightfall. Recall
?! That was before Eye of the North, but somehow our character was not surprised to do two quests for the charr. He even thanked us after completing "Dismember the Titans", where we killed two Titans in the Realm of Torment. Then again, having a conversation with a charr is one of the least weird things that can happen there.!! And finally in EoTN, where we meet Pyre and his warband. We learn that the charr in general don't like humans, don't like other charr, and don't like being sacrificed. Our character is not surprised that they talk. In fact, we quickly make a deal with him. See the
video by AcashicAtticus.!! So, the Prophecies campaign did not have you talk to the enemy. Justified, in that humans and charr had a kill on sight policy in Ascalon. Nightfall had a charr questgiver, EotN finally introduced more dialogue and you could hear their battle cries. This was before GW2.!! Is this development non plausible? Or maybe it is, but you as a player feel betrayed? The game started and you were the good humans and there were these evil animals called charr, who are at war with the humans. As Gwen said:"All charr are evil!" You may feel tricked by the narrative, but our player characters did what he or she held to be the right thing at the moment. Their perception filters were applied to you, the player, which made the game overall very immersive. The downside is that the limited information makes you, the player, share the biases of your character. The rest is history. Quite literally so. Ascalon fell. It was certainly sad to see Ascalon go down in flames, but this is why the campaign was named
.

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@"Castigator.3470" said:

! Also, there is a big indicator that the charr were not just beast like wolves, bears, or mountain lions. They have names. Quite a few in fact. Do you think the Ascalonians named each charr they encountered? Swag the Lasher, Drub Gorefang, Slur Scharchest, Maul Riptear, by the way, remember that Maul and the other charr necromancers drop their armor, which is named
? Does that indicate their legion even back in Prophecies?! Then there's the fact that they use class abilities.!! We even Speak to a charr questgiver back in Nightfall. Recall
?! That was before Eye of the North, but somehow our character was not surprised to do two quests for the charr. He even thanked us after completing "Dismember the Titans", where we killed two Titans in the Realm of Torment. Then again, having a conversation with a charr is one of the least weird things that can happen there.!! And finally in EoTN, where we meet Pyre and his warband. We learn that the charr in general don't like humans, don't like other charr, and don't like being sacrificed. Our character is not surprised that they talk. In fact, we quickly make a deal with him. See the
video by AcashicAtticus.!! So, the Prophecies campaign did not have you talk to the enemy. Justified, in that humans and charr had a kill on sight policy in Ascalon. Nightfall had a charr questgiver, EotN finally introduced more dialogue and you could hear their battle cries. This was before GW2.!! Is this development non plausible? Or maybe it is, but you as a player feel betrayed? The game started and you were the good humans and there were these evil animals called charr, who are at war with the humans. As Gwen said:"All charr are evil!" You may feel tricked by the narrative, but our player characters did what he or she held to be the right thing at the moment. Their perception filters were applied to you, the player, which made the game overall very immersive. The downside is that the limited information makes you, the player, share the biases of your character. The rest is history. Quite literally so. Ascalon fell. It was certainly sad to see Ascalon go down in flames, but this is why the campaign was named
.

Can't say much against this. I guess my memories tricked me in some regards, as it has been a while.The only thing I can hold against, is that giving names to the most fearsome enemy creatures doesn't seem that far fetched to me. It basically comes down to preparing a hunters story, like "Hey, you remember that Charr, furball the fuzzy? Yeah, I killed it. Now give me free beer."

Gwen was actually the best plot device the game could give to you. She basically IS pre-searing ascalon. and whats left of that old doctrine, and the game tries to talk her out of her madness. I can accept your immersion point as valid.So yes, it makes sense from a story point. But the fact, that all this got made up later, still exists. Imagine the writing somehow developing into "The Mursaat did nothing wrong and only wanted to prevent a greater threat from emerging!" (Heck, I'd love that to be honest, as Mursaat are, hands down, the coolest race in Guild Wars. But you get the point.)It's easy to shape a story after it's been published. But it leaves that sour taste of lacking artistic integrity in my mouth. It's like getting played by the author: "Hey, remember what I made you feel while experiencing that story? Hah, screw you, cuz my twist will put everything you think to know into question!"Just my personal opinion. Feel free to feel differet about it.

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@"Castigator.3470" said:Remember how Guild wars Prophecies started? King Adelbern was preparing another offensive into charr territory. To quote:If by 'charr territory' you mean land that had just been half the kingdom of Ascalon, including its capital. Before the invasion everything from the Wall to the Ascalon Foothills, and at least a fair bit beyond that, had human settlements, human cities. At the point of the intro cutscene, the charr had already attacked, and gotten deep into the countryside.

Also, there is a big indicator that the charr were not just beast like wolves, bears, or mountain lions. They have names. Quite a few in fact.

So do devourers, spiders, drakes... basically anything in GW1 large enough to fight, be it intelligent or not. Granted, the fact that charr wore armor and fought with weapons should've been a tip-off... but having names really did mean nothing.

by the way, remember that Maul and the other charr necromancers drop their armor, which is named Ash FiendTrappings? Does that indicate their legion even back in Prophecies?

Not unless there was also a Mind legion, Axe legion, Stalk legion, and so on. I wouldn't be surprised if ANet drew the legion names from some of the charr varieties they'd implemented over the years, but clearly not every variety was used that way.

Then there's the fact that they use class abilities.Again, so do bugs, plants, reptiles, mammals, and basically every kind of beast in GW1 except for ranger pets. Many of them even used spells- skale were prolific hexers in Prophecies, and there were seeds that were some of the game's most vexing healers. And don't get me started on ibogas and their mesmer nonsense.

In general, I don't agree with Imba, but I do get where they're coming from. GW1 was very much framed as 'people vs. monsters,' with people mostly meaning humans until EotN. It didn't matter whether they were intelligent or not, the monsters were dangerous predators that needed to be put down, the same way orcs and goblins and dragons have commonly been portrayed across fiction. In other words, being intelligent didn't make you count as a person, and thus, despite names and armor and spells, charr were not treated as people. GW2 (including EotN here) took a different tack, where just about anything that's not an Elder Dragon is at least potentially redeemable. While that doesn't carry over to the gameplay very well, that shift in lens has had vast, potentially jarring implications for the setting. It's not about logical contradictions or hard retcons, just a change in tone and approach, which in its own way is even more important. It made charr people, and while I find that to be a change for the better, I cannot deny that it was a change, a huge one.

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@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

In general, I don't agree with Imba, but I do get where they're coming from. GW1 was very much framed as 'people vs. monsters,' with people mostly meaning humans until EotN. It didn't matter whether they were intelligent or not, the monsters were dangerous predators that needed to be put down, the same way orcs and goblins and dragons have commonly been portrayed across fiction. In other words, being intelligent didn't make you count as a person, and thus, despite names and armor and spells, charr were not treated as people. GW2 (including EotN here) took a different tack, where just about anything that's not an Elder Dragon is at least potentially redeemable. While that doesn't carry over to the gameplay very well, that shift in lens has had vast, potentially jarring implications for the setting. It's not about logical contradictions or hard retcons, just a change in tone and approach, which in its own way is even more important. It made charr people, and while I find that to be a change for the better, I cannot deny that it was a change, a huge one.

I wouldn't even mind the Charr becoming a concious race, if it weren't at the Ascalonians expense.The is simply SO much you could do with that story arc right now. Lifting the curse, redeeming Adelbern, aknowleding his role in the fall of the titans. Making the ghosts find peace, making the Charr finally showing some respect for them, so they not only claimed Ascalon by force, but also get accepted by the ghosts. (I think of Return of the King, when Aragorn releases the ghost army. They vanish, but deeply satisfied to finally find rest.)So much could lead up to the lifting of the course. Interacting with some ghosts, who periodically regain their free will, fighting side by side with the commander. Heck, if it'd be up to me, I'd love to see the curse not only vanish, but also everyone who ws affected by it to be revived, and get another chance in that new world.

There are many ways this could potentially go.

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@Blocki.4931 said:

@"Svennis.3852" said:Didn't Ascalon originally belong to the Charr? Then the humans came in a kicked them out. The Charr ruled under the Flame Legion were super awful and evil, but I thought it was established as far back as GW1 that the Charr assaulted Ascalon in part to reclaim their homeland.

^ This

I'm just worried it wouldn't stop at Ascalon. Maybe warbands would split up from the rest to get more human territory now that the main threat is gone, peace is fragile after all no?

Technically humans are Aliens, they should be kicked out of the world in order to bring balance and the continuing recycle of magic back to the world

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In gw1 it was always obvious (at least to me) that the charr are a sentient species just from they way of fighting. (using weapons, looking how they acually fight/move, come up with strategys) no wild beast is able to do this to this extent.Yes animals can hunt an structure themself in a pack but thats was still visibly different from the charr with coordinated patrols and defending strategical Points in the landscape.Regarding what we know bout the backstory of gw the charr conquered ascalon stumbled over themselfs andthe humans were able to push them aside. After internal Problems were solved the "way of the charr" and how they solve things plus the necessity for the flame Legion to demonstrate the overhelming power of the "gods" they striked back to Claim their land back.the charr are a fight hungry sentient but still wild species whose territory was taken away. they knew the humans are sentient too but their line of thinking did not accept negotiations with the weaker "meat". (from that we can conclude that charr indeed ate humans)

People who think of themselfs as the superior "race" or lifeform tend to be ferocious against others who they consider as the weak (european vs native americans for example). regarding this Point it is understandable that the charr who look for victory in challanging wars are furiously attacking the weak human who dared to take away their territory.

so the humans who fear the charr cuz they only know their brutal soldiers who kill and conquer the human lands are not likely to negotiate either .. cuz they think of themselfs as the superior beings with so awesome Technology and poetry and art and crap they they could think of ..this leads to humans looking down on those furrocious charr who just run wild kill capture and eat humans.looking down on the charr is a reason to deny them beeing able to negotiate with. (what was not necessarily false at that time cuz i dont think that humans nor charr were able to make the needed sacrifices to seal a deal.)

later in gw1-EotN the PC were able to stand above These prejudices and .. Kind off.. made friends with a charr. or let us say they came to an Agreement favorabel for both sides in the Task at Hand which was not that much of a surprise that charr are able to communicate it was more surprising to learn about the internal structures and conflicts within the charr.until that Point they could have had somewhat like a hivemind cuz except for 1 charr in the realm of torment i cant remember interacting with charr different then killing one so they did not Show off much individuality. well they hat have leading personalitys in Charge tho..

and still this friend was not easy to deal with for the other companions following the PC (specially Gwen but she is a Special case anyway in that regard)

so to sum it up the real reason for These wars were mostly psychological and rooted in ignorance and intolerance vs other races with less humanoid/ charrlike bodys

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@"Imba.9451" said:"We killed our gods with machines of war" or something like that. Last time I played GW1, it was my character and the awesome companions he gathered along the way that killed the last titans in tyria. Together with Adelbern by the way :pensive:

-coughs-

But more seriously: the reasoin why Pyre and his warband were imprisoned is because they had witnessed humans killing the titans (The Last Day Dawns quest that you reference), and had rallied other warbands to do the same. They had killed both shamans and Titans, and after doing this for six years, were captured, imprisoned, and sentenced to death for it.

So it's not entirely false that the charr "killed their gods", since they actually did kill some titans, even if the first titans felled in Ascalon were killed by lowly humans. They also helped in killing the replacement gods (aka destroyers).

@"Castigator.3470" said:Also, there is a big indicator that the charr were not just beast like wolves, bears, or mountain lions. They have names. Quite a few in fact. Do you think the Ascalonians named each charr they encountered? Swag the Lasher, Drub Gorefang, Slur Scharchest, Maul Riptear, by the way, remember that Maul and the other charr necromancers drop their armor, which is named Ash FiendTrappings? Does that indicate their legion even back in Prophecies?Then there's the fact that they use class abilities.

We even Speak to a charr questgiver back in Nightfall. Recall Scorch Emberspire?That was before Eye of the North, but somehow our character was not surprised to do two quests for the charr. He even thanked us after completing "Dismember the Titans", where we killed two Titans in the Realm of Torment. Then again, having a conversation with a charr is one of the least weird things that can happen there.

For Nightfall, there's also Garfaz Steelfur. But more importantly, I feel, are various Prophecies quests. While they do not have any speech, there's multiple references of the charr utilizing tactics, traps, etc. The very first named charr we encounter in the storyline is a scout who utilized the catacombs to avoid detection. That's intelligence, not feral thoughts.

We also see the charr housing prisoners for more than preserving food which wouldn't happen with mindless beasts. They create structures, as crude as they may have been, and as others noted, had clothing and wielded weapons. They had a very obvious culture from the very beginning in the form of the Prophecies manual, which mentioned that the charr worshiped beings of fire - the very existence of a religion screams "not mindless beast".

To me, the charr were first presented not as evil, mindless beasts, but rather as a species which had a language barrier that prevented any form of peace. Nightfall's addition of two charr who could talk turned this from language barrier to cultural barrier and simply a lack of desire for conversing.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

For Nightfall, there's also Garfaz Steelfur. But more importantly, I feel, are various Prophecies quests. While they do not have any speech, there's multiple references of the charr utilizing tactics, traps, etc. The very first named charr we encounter in the storyline is a scout who utilized the catacombs to avoid detection. That's intelligence, not feral thoughts.

We also see the charr housing prisoners for more than preserving food which wouldn't happen with mindless beasts. They create structures, as crude as they may have been, and as others noted, had clothing and wielded weapons. They had a very obvious culture from the very beginning in the form of the Prophecies manual, which mentioned that the charr worshiped beings of fire - the very existence of a religion screams "not mindless beast".

To me, the charr were first presented not as evil, mindless beasts, but rather as a species which had a language barrier that prevented any form of peace. Nightfall's addition of two charr who could talk turned this from language barrier to cultural barrier and simply a lack of desire for conversing.

Well, Grawl basicall could do the same. And thats the same level I categorized charr back then: A primitive species. Like the Orks in W40k, it's all about stompin' an' smashin'.

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