The Goal of being Esport, really limits the imagination & possibilities of Instanced PvP could be.

[Knighthonor.4061]

I really feel that the creativity and possibility of Instanced PvP in this game is limited by Arena Net's objective to be a popular Esport like League of Legends. The only other form of PvP in the game besides duels, is WvW which isnt as fun as I once hoped, without balanced numbers like Instanced PvP has. But right now Instanced PvP is pretty much the same objectives with different skins on top. There is no real creativity in how SPvP is designed it seem. Just same thing from Vanilla just done over and over again. I would really hope Arena Net would just add a totally different form of Instanced PvP to the game to keep their Esport goals as a separate entity from Instanced PvP as a whole, so some PvP developers can do some other stuff with Instanced PvP that wont conflict with whatever Arena Net's Esport goals are for the current SPvP model.

[pah.4931]

Yeah. Unfortunately they went ALL IN with the e-sport thing from the initial launch and I don't think they've had the resources to recover from that (in hindsight) bad decision.

I wish they could...

1) Make way more game modes / maps / team sizes...

and

2) Be more inventive and create a smaller (but still huge) open world pvp area that steals a lot of ideas from Archeage (this is obviously never, ever going to happen). WvW is just a zerg fest...

[Stand The Wall.6987]

pretty sure they gave up on that

[Indecipherable.3621]

LOL you are just 2 years too late with this post, esports died 2016 mate. Theres a reason the PvP is worse now compared to what it was when ESL existed

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

ANet was involved in e-sports entirely as a marketing tool. It was cheaper to fund tournaments than to pay for adverts, and (for a time), it got better results. ANet didn't focus or go all in on e-sports; they put just enough effort in as needed to use the publicity.

[Chaith.8256]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:ANet was involved in e-sports entirely as a marketing tool. It was cheaper to fund tournaments than to pay for adverts, and (for a time), it got better results. ANet didn't focus or go all in on e-sports; they put just enough effort in as needed to use the publicity.

Someone who actually understands.

eSports was just diverted advertising budget. The lack of game modes or content has nothing to do with eSports, just lack of interest in ArenaNet's part in updating it.

[pah.4931]

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:ANet was involved in e-sports entirely as a marketing tool. It was cheaper to fund tournaments than to pay for adverts, and (for a time), it got better results. ANet didn't focus or go all in on e-sports; they put just enough effort in as needed to use the publicity.

They went "all-in" on e-sports in the sense that the game mode (the only mode) and combat system was specifically made for e-sports, instead of breadth and fun (i.e., a battleground system, as well as a more competitive "arena", like almost every other MMOs has). Their intent doesn't matter. They chose to support a very limited aspect of pvp and never tried anything different since then (expect poorly designed and support "alt modes").

[Rym.1469]

As far as I see it, they distance themselves as a whole not just from competitive pvp but now also from "competitive" pve as well more than ever.

[Clownmug.8357]

It's funny that Anet did their best to kill bunkery gameplay because it was too boring to watch, then didn't bother cleaning up effects and animations so spectators could see what was going with the twitchy gameplay left behind.

[Chaith.8256]

@"pah.4931" said:

They went "all-in" on e-sports in the sense that the game mode (the only mode) and combat system was specifically made for e-sports, instead of...

They went all-in on conquest in PvP not eSports....

The combat system and game mode was not specifically designed for e-sports as you say,

• Gratuitous particle effects
• Non-stop 10 minutes of full tilt action with no build up or climax
• Hard to spectate and shoutcast because of the aforementioned

You just don't like GW2 PvP, to each their own

[pah.4931]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"pah.4931" said:

They went "all-in" on e-sports in the sense that the game mode (the only mode) and combat system was specifically made for e-sports, instead of...

They went all-in on conquest in PvP not eSports....

The combat system and game mode was not specifically designed for e-sports as you say,

• Gratuitous particle effects
• Non-stop 10 minutes of full tilt action with no build up or climax
• Hard to spectate and shoutcast because of the aforementioned

You just don't like GW2 PvP, to each their own

lol they went all-in on conquest BECAUSE the e-sports push. Just because they poorly implemented it doesn't make it any less true.

[Balsa.3951]

Combat is great in this game and fun except when a new xpac comes out which always messes up everything

Class X OP

All I want is a net stop try to push us buy the xpac that way. The ground idea of specialization is good. Low learning curve and another fun way to play ur favorite class should be all what is needed.

More game modes could make specialization more important instead. But than the devil circle is not enough player....

[Chaith.8256]

@pah.4931 said:lol they went all-in on conquest BECAUSE the e-sports push. Just because they poorly implemented it doesn't make it any less true.

I see that you keep using the word eSports when the words balanced or competitive would be a better fit as to what they were going for with the original goals for conquest. Remember PvP is low-development budget, Conquest is the most competitive mode for the least development dollars. eSports, as in, broadcasted top tier matches, still does not belong in this convo

[pah.4931]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"pah.4931" said:lol they went all-in on conquest BECAUSE the e-sports push. Just because they poorly implemented it doesn't make it any less true.

I see that you keep using the word eSports when the words balanced or competitive would be a better fit as to what they were going for with the original goals for conquest. Remember PvP is low-development budget, Conquest is the most competitive mode for the least development dollars. eSports, as in, broadcasted top tier matches, still does not belong in this convo

The very original design was intended with esports in mind. I don't understand why you are still arguing the fact.

Here's a quote from Jonathan "Chaplan" Sharp in 2012:

"We want to see eSports grow worldwide, and it’s a big part of how we think here at ArenaNet. We design sPvP maps with commentators in mind. We think about streaming and how our game will do on streams when being learned by new players. We watch eSport replays/streams in the office. We watch GW2 gamecasts on Youtube. We think about how people will organize tournaments (small and large) within custom arenas. We talk about eSport matches while we’re at lunch. We think about how to best get new players into the game, while also making sure professional players have a way to grow their fame. We think about the best way to show high-level matches to the masses. Really…we just think a lot about eSports. Not just for GW2, but we think about growing eSports around the world."

The game shipped before they could finish the original intent for PvP and now they don't have the resources to fix it. So we are stuck in the middle.

[Chaith.8256]

@pah.4931 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@pah.4931 said:lol they went all-in on conquest BECAUSE the e-sports push. Just because they poorly implemented it doesn't make it any less true.

I see that you keep using the word eSports when the words balanced or competitive would be a better fit as to what they were going for with the original goals for conquest. Remember PvP is low-development budget, Conquest is the most competitive mode for the least development dollars. eSports, as in, broadcasted top tier matches, still does not belong in this convo

The very original design was intended with esports in mind. I don't understand why you are still arguing the fact.

Here's a quote from Jonathan "Chaplan" Sharp in 2012:

"We want to see eSports grow worldwide, and it’s a big part of how we think here at ArenaNet. We design sPvP maps with commentators in mind. We think about streaming and how our game will do on streams when being learned by new players. We watch eSport replays/streams in the office. We watch GW2 gamecasts on Youtube. We think about how people will organize tournaments (small and large) within custom arenas. We talk about eSport matches while we’re at lunch. We think about how to best get new players into the game, while also making sure professional players have a way to grow their fame. We think about the best way to show high-level matches to the masses. Really…we just think a lot about eSports. Not just for GW2, but we think about growing eSports around the world."

The game shipped before they could finish the original intent for PvP and now they don't have the resources to fix it. So we are stuck in the middle.

ArenaNet is not all about eSports.. hyping the game as a future big eSport is another 2012 marketing push.

What you keep implying is that the game would be vastly different, amazing, have large breadth of game modes if they didn't care so much about "talking about eSports in the office." That's easy for you to claim, with no reason to believe they would have focused on other game modes ever. You could have aspirations of eSports with more than conquest.

ArenaNet is not pushing eSports, and they are not out of resources, that's for sure, they're not allocating resources, why would they have allocated resources to PvP if they didn't claim to care about eSports? They still wouldn't churn out a large breadth of game modes lol

[Etheri.5406]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@pah.4931 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@pah.4931 said:lol they went all-in on conquest BECAUSE the e-sports push. Just because they poorly implemented it doesn't make it any less true.

I see that you keep using the word eSports when the words balanced or competitive would be a better fit as to what they were going for with the original goals for conquest. Remember PvP is low-development budget, Conquest is the most competitive mode for the least development dollars. eSports, as in, broadcasted top tier matches, still does not belong in this convo

The very original design was intended with esports in mind. I don't understand why you are still arguing the fact.

Here's a quote from Jonathan "Chaplan" Sharp in 2012:

"We want to see eSports grow worldwide, and it’s a big part of how we think here at ArenaNet. We design sPvP maps with commentators in mind. We think about streaming and how our game will do on streams when being learned by new players. We watch eSport replays/streams in the office. We watch GW2 gamecasts on Youtube. We think about how people will organize tournaments (small and large) within custom arenas. We talk about eSport matches while we’re at lunch. We think about how to best get new players into the game, while also making sure professional players have a way to grow their fame. We think about the best way to show high-level matches to the masses. Really…we just think a lot about eSports. Not just for GW2, but we think about growing eSports around the world."

The game shipped before they could finish the original intent for PvP and now they don't have the resources to fix it. So we are stuck in the middle.

ArenaNet is not all about eSports.. hyping the game as a future big eSport is another 2012 marketing push.

What you keep implying is that the game would be vastly different, amazing, have large breadth of game modes if they didn't care so much about "talking about eSports in the office." That's easy for you to claim, with no reason to believe they would have focused on other game modes ever. You could have aspirations of eSports with more than conquest.

ArenaNet is not pushing eSports, and they are not out of resources, that's for sure, they're not allocating resources, why would they have allocated resources to PvP if they didn't claim to care about eSports? They still wouldn't churn out a large breadth of game modes lol

I'd go further, and say one of the main reasons "esports" was doomed to fail was because despite pushing esports they neglected the ingame aspects of GW2 PvP. No functional matchmaking for a few years. No functional leaderboards or ingame tournaments for several more years. We had "esports" yet no way of knowing who was good or who wasn't. No competitiveness ingame whatsoever. No frequent balance updates. Nada.

Only occasional LAN tournaments, to lure the competitive aspects to external parts. The game itself remained casual-oriented at all times. No rewards for skill, no titles, no competitions, 3 leaderboards designed to AVOID showing skill-based rating despite having MMR-based matchmaking...

Pushing esports while not even trying to sustain a healthy PvP environment ingame.

[Chaith.8256]

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@pah.4931 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@pah.4931 said:lol they went all-in on conquest BECAUSE the e-sports push. Just because they poorly implemented it doesn't make it any less true.

I see that you keep using the word eSports when the words balanced or competitive would be a better fit as to what they were going for with the original goals for conquest. Remember PvP is low-development budget, Conquest is the most competitive mode for the least development dollars. eSports, as in, broadcasted top tier matches, still does not belong in this convo

The very original design was intended with esports in mind. I don't understand why you are still arguing the fact.

Here's a quote from Jonathan "Chaplan" Sharp in 2012:

"We want to see eSports grow worldwide, and it’s a big part of how we think here at ArenaNet. We design sPvP maps with commentators in mind. We think about streaming and how our game will do on streams when being learned by new players. We watch eSport replays/streams in the office. We watch GW2 gamecasts on Youtube. We think about how people will organize tournaments (small and large) within custom arenas. We talk about eSport matches while we’re at lunch. We think about how to best get new players into the game, while also making sure professional players have a way to grow their fame. We think about the best way to show high-level matches to the masses. Really…we just think a lot about eSports. Not just for GW2, but we think about growing eSports around the world."

The game shipped before they could finish the original intent for PvP and now they don't have the resources to fix it. So we are stuck in the middle.

ArenaNet is not all about eSports.. hyping the game as a future big eSport is another 2012 marketing push.

What you keep implying is that the game would be vastly different, amazing, have large breadth of game modes if they didn't care so much about "talking about eSports in the office." That's easy for you to claim, with no reason to believe they would have focused on other game modes ever. You could have aspirations of eSports with more than conquest.

ArenaNet is not pushing eSports, and they are not out of resources, that's for sure, they're not allocating resources, why would they have allocated resources to PvP if they didn't claim to care about eSports? They still wouldn't churn out a large breadth of game modes lol

I'd go further, and say one of the main reasons "esports" was doomed to fail was because despite pushing esports they neglected the ingame aspects of GW2 PvP. No functional matchmaking for a few years. No functional leaderboards or ingame tournaments for several more years. We had "esports" yet no way of knowing who was good or who wasn't. No competitiveness ingame whatsoever. No frequent balance updates. Nada.

Only occasional LAN tournaments, to lure the competitive aspects to external parts. The game itself remained casual-oriented at all times. No rewards for skill, no titles, no competitions, 3 leaderboards designed to AVOID showing skill-based rating despite having MMR-based matchmaking...

Pushing esports while not even trying to sustain a healthy PvP environment ingame.

On all that we agree, its just when you're 'pushing' eSports, you have to do that with your actual work, not your public statements. No eSports push since 2012 here at ArenaNet, that was just a 2015-2016 advertising fling.

[Falan.1839]

2018 and people still blame eSports for the state of PvP. I thought that meme died long ago...Anet was as far from "all-in" on eSports as you possibly can be (hint: no pause game and dcs in ProLeague).

[pah.4931]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@pah.4931 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@pah.4931 said:lol they went all-in on conquest BECAUSE the e-sports push. Just because they poorly implemented it doesn't make it any less true.

I see that you keep using the word eSports when the words balanced or competitive would be a better fit as to what they were going for with the original goals for conquest. Remember PvP is low-development budget, Conquest is the most competitive mode for the least development dollars. eSports, as in, broadcasted top tier matches, still does not belong in this convo

The very original design was intended with esports in mind. I don't understand why you are still arguing the fact.

Here's a quote from Jonathan "Chaplan" Sharp in 2012:

"We want to see eSports grow worldwide, and it’s a big part of how we think here at ArenaNet. We design sPvP maps with commentators in mind. We think about streaming and how our game will do on streams when being learned by new players. We watch eSport replays/streams in the office. We watch GW2 gamecasts on Youtube. We think about how people will organize tournaments (small and large) within custom arenas. We talk about eSport matches while we’re at lunch. We think about how to best get new players into the game, while also making sure professional players have a way to grow their fame. We think about the best way to show high-level matches to the masses. Really…we just think a lot about eSports. Not just for GW2, but we think about growing eSports around the world."

The game shipped before they could finish the original intent for PvP and now they don't have the resources to fix it. So we are stuck in the middle.

ArenaNet is not all about eSports.. hyping the game as a future big eSport is another 2012 marketing push.

What you keep implying is that the game would be vastly different, amazing, have large breadth of game modes if they didn't care so much about "talking about eSports in the office." That's easy for you to claim, with no reason to believe they would have focused on other game modes ever. You could have aspirations of eSports with more than conquest.

ArenaNet is not pushing eSports, and they are not out of resources, that's for sure, they're not allocating resources, why would they have allocated resources to PvP if they didn't claim to care about eSports? They still wouldn't churn out a large breadth of game modes lol

You are the one making an assumption. You are accusing all talks of "esports" by Anet of being for marketing only (so, lies) based on NOTHING but speculation. There are quotes from Anet that state their goals for sPvP are heavily invested in esports. There are design choices made by Anet that back up those claims (e.g. diverting resources to one complex, super team-heavy and not solo-friendly game mode instead of tried-and-true maps, like a capture the flag). Also, the diversion of the GW1 model is interesting as well.

Just because they failed at those goals and launched the game without the tools in place for success... doesn't mean that those decisions greatly affected the product we have in front of us now. They aren't pushing esports anymore because PvP is on autopilot (I think they have 2 maybe 3 devs assigned to the mode -- but that is just MY speculation). But if you don't think the original intent was to create a PvP mode that was a huge esports success and it was just "all marketing lies" then I guess I can't talk you out of your conspiracy theories.

[Chaith.8256]

@"pah.4931" said:But if you don't think the original intent was to create a PvP mode that was a huge esports success and it was just "all marketing lies" then I guess I can't talk you out of your conspiracy theories.

Launched without every key feature for eSports, and the entire combat was not designed with view-ability in mind. I'm not saying it was a conspiracy to pretend to be eSports, its just from the beginning, they never put development dollars where their mouth was. I understand where you're coming from, there's just no way to guess how much better PvP could be so much better if they aspired lower or appealed more to casuals.

ArenaNet's way of appealing to casuals is not with a large breadth of modes and interesting, expensive, PvP mechanics. It was just to create a leaderboard where #1 has the most grinded wins in wood league.

Conquest is all they were ever prepared to develop and balance. They didn't forego all the modes and content you could imagine for eSports, it doesn't siphon resources to claim to make a game mode with eSports in mind. Lack of meaningful content is due to development choices, and not the one of designing a game mode for eSport potential.

You may argue that Conquest could be different if they were not aiming to have eSport potential, like, including more NPCs, novelty mechanics, a wide assortment of hazards, think original Skyhammer. This would likely have backfired and came with a whole other host of complaints, even more legitimate than the OP's here.

Paid tournaments, several iterations on the leaderboards, solo queue, Stronghold, Custom Arenas/Spectator mode, and finally PvP Leagues, this was ArenaNet's attempt at improving the possibilities of instanced PvP.

The OP says: "I would really hope Arena Net would just add a totally different form of Instanced PvP to the game to keep their Esport goals as a separate entity from Instanced PvP as a whole, so some PvP developers can do some other stuff with Instanced PvP that wont conflict with whatever Arena Net's Esport goals are for the current SPvP model."

One word, Stronghold. Totally different form of instanced PvP, separate entity from 'eSport' conquest. But nobody likes their toy once they get it, always more fun to fantasize about what they could have instead, if it wasn't for those meddling eSports

[Abazigal.3679]

It's still tough to answer the point. The game used to be much more strategic to be honest :

• Old meta was for sure around bunkering and could be frustrating, but it required tactics from both sides and moves
• Skyhammer/Spirit Watch/ battle of khylo involved different strategies and you could win using several different builds

Then people complained and all of this got " nerfed " to get the condi spam meta that started around HoT, and reached its top level at PoF. Unfortunately, it depends the point of view. I'm convinced the game had and would have had potential if nothing was changed, but people asked for changed, got these changes, and still asked after.

You cannot blame them for listening to players ( although you could predict the result, pretty sure i posted about it 3 years ago). The same's currently happening for DuoQ.

[Chaith.8256]

@"Abazigal.3679" said:It's still tough to answer the point. The game used to be much more strategic to be honest :

• Old meta was for sure around bunkering and could be frustrating, but it required tactics from both sides and moves
• Skyhammer/Spirit Watch/ battle of khylo involved different strategies and you could win using several different builds

Then people complained and all of this got " nerfed " to get the condi spam meta that started around HoT, and reached its top level at PoF. Unfortunately, it depends the point of view. I'm convinced the game had and would have had potential if nothing was changed, but people asked for changed, got these changes, and still asked after.

You cannot blame them for listening to players ( although you could predict the result, pretty sure i posted about it 3 years ago). The same's currently happening for DuoQ.

I'd go back to a bunker chrono or skyhammer troll build meta, kicking and screaming maybe.. these things were FREAKING AWFUL, not strategic. How quick we are to forget..

Maybe some clarification around what old meta based on bunkering you're referring to?

[phokus.8934]

Personally I think it's simpler as to why pvp failed as an eSports game:

The lack of experience and vision.

They wanted GW2 to be the next big eSports game but it seems as if they didn't do any market research and relied on GW2 being the next big MMO to not fail. But simply put in my perspective, there was a lack of management in pvp.

[Abazigal.3679]

@Chaith.8256 said:I'd go back to a bunker chrono or skyhammer troll build meta, kicking and screaming maybe.. these things were FREAKING AWFUL, not strategic. How quick we are to forget..

Maybe some clarification around what old meta based on bunkering you're referring to?

I'm not going to say this was close to Kasperov's chess strategies, but at least these offered ways of winning differently. Play on treb, use running builds, use scorpion wire thieves, and so on.. these were alternative ways. It gets pretty old when you can win every single map by having mesmers sides, scourges and FB mid ( referring to previous meta, didn't try new one ) with very few risk.

Old meta bunker i'm referring to is the very old one with portal mes, guardians and bunker rangers. Basically matchs could end at 10-0 or at 500-0 with no deaths, simply capping points.

[breno.5423]

@"pah.4931" said:I wish they could...

1) Make way more game modes / maps / team sizes...

More maps would only "kitten" the MMR / segregate the population of sPvP.New game mode would be cool, for example a TRULY deathmath mode (with rounds system, best of 5). New modes could be included into unranked options at first.We are also needing a GvG mode as well (10x10 or 15x15). The Guild hall arena could be bigger (the size of obsidian sanctum for example) and instanced, with a queue/counter for both related guilds and some options, like a notificator system, chronometer, and rounds system too (would even bring some importance to the guild hall).

But the main problem is the lack of a good reward system for competitive PvP players, which would bring prestige/glory/recognition. Badges and titles are at this way, but anet is already listening to the noob forum members and is going to remove titles, seems like the next step is to remove badges. Anet definitelly don't know what competitive players care/seek.