if a class is trash and you balance it by buffing and nerfing at the same time...

[LazySummer.2568]

The result is ele is still trash.

[Crab Fear.1624]

buff thief

[Kako.1930]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:buff thief

Patch Notes:

Thief

• Dagger skills deal 100% more damage
• Thieves can no longer wield daggers in their main or off-hand

[Malafaia.8903]

We even had a poll where, as strage as it sounds, majority on this forum agreed: ele is trash.Why don't pick like 2 or 3 top players on each class, put them in direct comunication with the balance team? SOME GODDAMN COMMUNICATION.It's patch after patch, nothing meaninful is adressed and soon we will be in the next expansion void, where everything is trash, except for the new specializations.SAD.

[Sunshine.5014]

It's okay. It's a step in the right direction. The step is small. Ele will be OK again after 2 more years.

[Alin.2468]

@Sunshine.5014 said:It's okay. It's a step in the right direction. The step is small. Ele will be OK again after 2 more years.

... when Guild Wars 3 will release.

[Arioch.4810]

I need to see daggers in action, field detonations etc before i estimate how will i face eles after this patch.I'm sure i will still prefer ele over scrapper on my team tho....

[Blocki.4931]

It's balanced. Trying to avoid the shitshow it used to be, but slightly pushing it upwards is the right approach

[Sindrener.1592]

@Malafaia.8903 said:We even had a poll where, as strage as it sounds, majority on this forum agreed: ele is trash.Why don't pick like 2 or 3 top players on each class, put them in direct comunication with the balance team? SOME kitten COMMUNICATION.It's patch after patch, nothing meaninful is adressed and soon we will be in the next expansion void, where everything is trash, except for the new specializations.SAD.

We had something like this with grouch once, even then it wasnt great

[LazySummer.2568]

@Arioch.4810 said:I need to see daggers in action, field detonations etc before i estimate how will i face eles after this patch.I'm sure i will still prefer ele over scrapper on my team tho....

Probably over scrapper but definitely not over holo so engi as a class overall is still a better pick than ele in pvp

@Blocki.4931 said:It's balanced. Trying to avoid the shitshow it used to be, but slightly pushing it upwards is the right approach

It being trash for a long time is just as much as a shitshow as it being op for a long time. Meanwhile, a spec that's not doing so hot named Reaper, which can already switch to meta spec called Scourge got straight buffs and no nerfs; same with Revenant -- all buffs, no nerfs when it was basically already partially meta before this patch.

And I'll say this again: dagger ele is still trash, definitely worse than the currently nerfed sword ele. Dagger weaver is the same old meme build that can't sustain, can't make use of the new condi clear from auras effectively due to natural of attunement locking from being a weaver, and it can't even do reliable damage when most of its damaging skills involves dashing around that now can't be camera controlled, with a big one locked behind double fire attunement (and another big one, though not mainly for damage, but for cc/counter-pressure, double attune air #3). Core dagger is a bit better than weaver but can't compete with the power creep from meta Pof/HoT specs, mainly because it has low access to stability and stunbreaks. Same with tempest, still no reliable stability/stunbreaks to do anything useful (overload), just some condi clearing machine but firebrand's condi clear and heal still outclass it (they also got a staff buff lol). There's nothing to wait and see on that part.

I've also just went and read the patch notes for dagger again. It's pretty baffling to me why they even felt the need to nerf any of those skills after buffing them by increasing the cd, increasing the cast time, making it no longer unblockable...etc Lol.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Malafaia.8903 said:Why don't pick like 2 or 3 top players on each class, put them in direct comunication with the balance team?Because the player base has proven (on more than one occasion) that we cannot as a collective be trusted to test and deliver feedback without using the information garnered for personal advancement or leaking things on reddit for upvotes.

See:Death and Taxes, Tekkit's workshop.

[Malafaia.8903]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Malafaia.8903 said:Why don't pick like 2 or 3 top players on each class, put them in direct comunication with the balance team?Because the player base has proven (on more than one occasion) that we cannot as a collective be trusted to test and deliver feedback without using the information garnered for personal advancement or leaking things on reddit for upvotes.

See:Death and Taxes, Tekkit's workshop.

Maybe trying again, the professional way?Pay those guys, seal NDAs, it's not that hard.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Malafaia.8903" said:Maybe trying again, the professional way?

If you think that recruiting a group of players who's minds are focused and getting on top of the leaderboard and staying there is "professional" then you are kidding yourself.Do you think any "top mesmer" player would say "yeah my class is a little too oppressive, nerf me"?

[Corax.7692]

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:buff thief

I read this as "someone who steals buffs" rather than "please buff the thief profession", which left me confused until a following post.

[SoulSin.5682]

@"mindcircus.1506" said:Do you think any "top mesmer" player would say "yeah my class is a little too oppressive, nerf me"?

Most top players simple look on the list of classes, ask themselves what is the most effective, and use it.

You don't have to worry about it, everyone and their mothers are going to be using Ele's if it ever gets overbuffed again and will stop using Spellbreakers if it get nerfed.

[Yannir.4132]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Malafaia.8903" said:Maybe trying again, the professional way?

If you think that recruiting a group of players who's minds are focused and getting on top of the leaderboard and

staying there

is "professional" then you are kidding yourself.Do you think any "top mesmer" player would say "yeah my class is a little too oppressive, nerf me"?

Well ofc they wouldn't but you don't ask that from the mesmer players, you ask the 8 other classes representatives about which parts of mesmer to nerf. Top players are required to know every class's skills and mechanics, and as a result they can recognize which parts are overtuned. And in all likeliness, they will give overall reasonable feedback which doesn't overnerf mesmer because top players also enjoy competitive build diversity, and challenging but balanced duels/fights.

Also, you don't necessarily recruit the best of the best unconditionally, you also need to check their attitude/personality first. For example, a player that gets easily frustrated and responds to it by "raging", is not a good player to recruit for this purpose. Some of the top players are known to do that.

[Arioch.4810]

Well ofc they wouldn't but you don't ask that from the mesmer players, you ask the 8 other classes representatives about which parts of mesmer to nerf. Top players are required to know every class's skills and mechanics, and as a result they can recognize which parts are overtuned. And in all likeliness, they will give overall reasonable feedback which doesn't overnerf mesmer because top players also enjoy competitive build diversity, and challenging but balanced duels/fights.

What worries me with this approach: Some of well known PvP-ers used to (some still do) post their views on class hierarchy of usefulness in PvP - what is good/meta etcHeck, some of those posts are right here on the forums,drowned in other threads tho.

In those posts, changes are suggested not just for one class, but with idea of balance overall. And it always derails any useful discussion - some player find himself offended because "HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST CHANGES TO MY CLASS"

If we somehow bypass this, for instance by top 250 players having private part of forum to discuss changes with ANet's crew, new problem arises.It revolves around bell curve of player skill in PvP (bell curve - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution)I think that top players can eek out 100% performance from their favorite classes, and have at least 70% on pretty much anything in game.But average players have holes in their game - weaknesses they will shore up over time while getting better at PvP.If you balance for top players, majority of player base will have less than stellar experience until their understanding of the game reaches plateau on which you based balance on. Risky idea for maintaining and enriching population.Splitting skills further not just across game modes but across divisions as well perhaps? As you improve, skills that maybe carried you starts to lose some of its bite. Hmm, there's an idea :)