What happens when a Deadeye meets a Deadeye?

[enkidu.5937]

Anybody else expected a good joke from the title? :/Maybe I give it a try:

Two deadeyes meet at a restaurant:"Excuse me, are these seats taken?""I am sorry, they are already occupied by my stealth buddies.""So why are you the only one visible?""Well, someone has to order the beers..."

:S

[Catchyfx.5768]

@"XenesisII.1540" said:Oh oh oh give me a chance to post this again!

Exactly this ?? most boring fights Are between DE's or stealth Thief's generaly.

Guildwars2 > you not see the wars2

[Zyreva.1078]

@Kovu.7560 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Turk.5460 said:I simply choose not to fight Perma Stealth DE's. They can't really chase much...

That's doesn't conform with my experience. Had a situation where a permanently stealthed deadeye was chasing me (soulbeast) for 5+ min, and despite me spamming my leaps i couldn't get away. I was permanently in combat (and marked), that's why i know the thief was always there, even if i couldn't see him. And after several minutes and two failed burst attempts he oneshot me with a Binding Shadow + 21k DJ combo. Fun stuff ... not.

Old ghost thief had much more counterplay than this.

If you were playing Soulbeast the solution was to turn around and breathe on Mr. 21k. Reveal them and put them on the defensive, if they're forced to back off you don't even have to chase -- you can break combat and leave.

They're annoying, but pretty much any Mirage build (yes, even power) is much much worse. You can't 'unblockable' evasion frames.

~ Kovu

1. I didn't had Sic 'Em slotted and couldn't swap it in because i was permanently in combat.
2. Sic 'Em can't reveal a stealthed target, it requires a visible target in order to be applied.
3. Even if i had Sic 'Em slotted and if i managed to land it - it would do absolutely nothing, because the deadeye had Shadow Meld ...

Mirage can't perma evade, so it is possible to fight them back.

@MUDse.7623 said:

how can you fail to reach a tower/keep/spawn while spamming your leaps for 5 minutes?

Was an enemy owned map, there were no towers or keeps of my own server. What i could have done is go back to spawn. But do you really want to suggest, that it is ok for a build to essentially prevent me from playing, just with its presence?

Also lol @ anticipating every stealth burst attempt. I'm not a clairvoyant.

[geist.4126]

Unblockable is a very stupid mechanic too.

[Shadowcat.2680]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Turk.5460 said:I simply choose not to fight Perma Stealth DE's. They can't really chase much...

That's doesn't conform with my experience. Had a situation where a permanently stealthed deadeye was chasing me (soulbeast) for 5+ min, and despite me spamming my leaps i couldn't get away. I was permanently in combat (and marked), that's why i know the thief was always there, even if i couldn't see him. And after several minutes and two failed burst attempts he oneshot me with a Binding Shadow + 21k DJ combo. Fun stuff ... not.

Old ghost thief had much more counterplay than this.

Soulbeast built with at least some mobility in mind (greatsword, bird or gazelle beastmode, and/or sword with both leaps used for forward movement) should outrun the perma stealth (CA/SA w/ rifle + dagger/pistol) deadeye in the long run. Perma stealth deadeye just doesn't have the sustained mobility to keep up with a mobile soulbeast over an extended period of time like the 5 mins you mention.

[DemonSeed.3528]

Sbeast pretty much has all the tools to deal with a de, even without taking sic em. What weapon sets are you using?

[Zyreva.1078]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Turk.5460 said:I simply choose not to fight Perma Stealth DE's. They can't really chase much...

That's doesn't conform with my experience. Had a situation where a permanently stealthed deadeye was chasing me (soulbeast) for 5+ min, and despite me spamming my leaps i couldn't get away. I was permanently in combat (and marked), that's why i know the thief was always there, even if i couldn't see him. And after several minutes and two failed burst attempts he oneshot me with a Binding Shadow + 21k DJ combo. Fun stuff ... not.

Old ghost thief had much more counterplay than this.

Soulbeast built with at least some mobility in mind (greatsword, bird or gazelle beastmode, and/or sword with both leaps used for forward movement) should outrun the perma stealth (CA/SA w/ rifle + dagger/pistol) deadeye in the long run. Perma stealth deadeye just doesn't have the sustained mobility to keep up with a mobile soulbeast over an extended period of time like the 5 mins you mention.

I had GS (traited) and a wolf pet (800 leap in beastmode), so slightly less mobility than with owl or gazelle, but overall still pretty decent mobility.

@DemonSeed.3528 said:Sbeast pretty much has all the tools to deal with a de, even without taking sic em. What weapon sets are you using?I was using LB + GS.

[Shadowcat.2680]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Turk.5460 said:I simply choose not to fight Perma Stealth DE's. They can't really chase much...

That's doesn't conform with my experience. Had a situation where a permanently stealthed deadeye was chasing me (soulbeast) for 5+ min, and despite me spamming my leaps i couldn't get away. I was permanently in combat (and marked), that's why i know the thief was always there, even if i couldn't see him. And after several minutes and two failed burst attempts he oneshot me with a Binding Shadow + 21k DJ combo. Fun stuff ... not.

Old ghost thief had much more counterplay than this.

Soulbeast built with at least some mobility in mind (greatsword, bird or gazelle beastmode, and/or sword with both leaps used for forward movement) should outrun the perma stealth (CA/SA w/ rifle + dagger/pistol) deadeye in the long run. Perma stealth deadeye just doesn't have the sustained mobility to keep up with a mobile soulbeast over an extended period of time like the 5 mins you mention.

I had GS (traited) and a wolf pet (800 leap in beastmode), so slightly less mobility than with owl or gazelle, but overall still pretty decent mobility.

@DemonSeed.3528 said:Sbeast pretty much has all the tools to deal with a de, even without taking sic em. What weapon sets are you using?I was using LB + GS.

The canine leap is pretty good mobility out of combat since it only goes on a four sec cd if weapon swap is used to interrupt it just as it completes. It just doesn't hold up as well as bird or gazelle for mobility in combat.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:well, there is a meaningful way to fix deadeye - and thieves in general. And mesmers.

REMOVE STEALTH FROM THE GAME.

Nothing of worth will be lost.

Again, this will not happen. 2 classes are built with it as a large part of their kit, and 2 more have access to it as well.

Your best bet is to keep suggesting real, reasonable, and low mechanical impact changes. That you have a chance of getting, rather than demanding that ANet fully rework almost 1/10th of all skills and traits on 4 classes.

[Kovu.7560]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Turk.5460 said:I simply choose not to fight Perma Stealth DE's. They can't really chase much...

That's doesn't conform with my experience. Had a situation where a permanently stealthed deadeye was chasing me (soulbeast) for 5+ min, and despite me spamming my leaps i couldn't get away. I was permanently in combat (and marked), that's why i know the thief was always there, even if i couldn't see him. And after several minutes and two failed burst attempts he oneshot me with a Binding Shadow + 21k DJ combo. Fun stuff ... not.

Old ghost thief had much more counterplay than this.

If you were playing Soulbeast the solution was to turn around and breathe on Mr. 21k. Reveal them and put them on the defensive, if they're forced to back off you don't even have to chase -- you can break combat and leave.

They're annoying, but pretty much any Mirage build (yes, even power) is much much worse. You can't 'unblockable' evasion frames.

~ Kovu

1. I didn't had Sic 'Em slotted and couldn't swap it in because i was permanently in combat.
2. Sic 'Em can't reveal a stealthed target, it requires a visible target in order to be applied.
3. Even if i had Sic 'Em slotted and if i managed to land it - it would do absolutely nothing, because the deadeye had Shadow Meld ...

Mirage can't perma evade, so it is possible to fight them back.

Then camp your longbow, wait for them to shoot you and reveal themselves, knock them back and unload a rapid fire (it follows stealth). Best case scenario they're dead because they invested in offense. Worst case scenario they took a bunch of damage and are forced to back off. If you don't think you can kill them use that opportunity to swap to greatsword, break combat and leave. Mirages, on the other hand are obscene with their evasion and reflection uptime, to say nothing about their stealthing and mobility which isn't half bad, either.

If you're going to tell me you use neither Sic 'Em nor longbow I can't really help you -- you don't counter Deadeye with melee. (Well, you can try but you're at a disadvantage.)

Good heavens, invisible does not mean invulnerable.

~ Kovu

[Zyreva.1078]

The deadeye opened with Binding Shadows. Which means i had to get rid of the cc + immob first, then avoid DJ or follow-up dmg to not die, before thinking about counter pressure. And by that time he was already stealthed again or i was dead. He was never visible for more than ~1 second. Even when i was at like 20% hp after his burst (i survived because i had protection up), he didn't try to finish me off. Instead he went back into perma stealth until he eventually got the clean oneshot off (and if he didn't oneshot me he could just continue to stalk me until i get outnumbered or stop playing).

[Turk.5460]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Turk.5460 said:I simply choose not to fight Perma Stealth DE's. They can't really chase much...

That's doesn't conform with my experience. Had a situation where a permanently stealthed deadeye was chasing me (soulbeast) for 5+ min, and despite me spamming my leaps i couldn't get away. I was permanently in combat (and marked), that's why i know the thief was always there, even if i couldn't see him. And after several minutes and two failed burst attempts he oneshot me with a Binding Shadow + 21k DJ combo. Fun stuff ... not.

Old ghost thief had much more counterplay than this.

If you were playing Soulbeast the solution was to turn around and breathe on Mr. 21k. Reveal them and put them on the defensive, if they're forced to back off you don't even have to chase -- you can break combat and leave.

They're annoying, but pretty much any Mirage build (yes, even power) is much much worse. You can't 'unblockable' evasion frames.

~ Kovu

1. I didn't had Sic 'Em slotted and couldn't swap it in because i was permanently in combat.
2. Sic 'Em can't reveal a stealthed target, it requires a visible target in order to be applied.
3. Even if i had Sic 'Em slotted and if i managed to land it - it would do absolutely nothing, because the deadeye had Shadow Meld ...

Mirage can't perma evade, so it is possible to fight them back.

@MUDse.7623 said:

how can you fail to reach a tower/keep/spawn while spamming your leaps for 5 minutes?

Was an enemy owned map, there were no towers or keeps of my own server. What i could have done is go back to spawn. But do you really want to suggest, that it is ok for a build to essentially prevent me from playing, just with its presence?

Also lol @ anticipating every stealth burst attempt. I'm not a clairvoyant.

Why didn't you just do this:

[Zyreva.1078]

@Turk.5460 said:

Why didn't you just do this:[...]Maybe because said deadeye didn't just sat there spamming autoattacks in my face?

[Turk.5460]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

Why didn't you just do this:[...]Maybe because said deadeye didn't just sat there spamming autoattacks in my face?

Did you not have Signet of Stone equipped either to avoid damage after being hit by Binding Shadow?

[Shadowcat.2680]

@Turk.5460 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Turk.5460 said:I simply choose not to fight Perma Stealth DE's. They can't really chase much...

That's doesn't conform with my experience. Had a situation where a permanently stealthed deadeye was chasing me (soulbeast) for 5+ min, and despite me spamming my leaps i couldn't get away. I was permanently in combat (and marked), that's why i know the thief was always there, even if i couldn't see him. And after several minutes and two failed burst attempts he oneshot me with a Binding Shadow + 21k DJ combo. Fun stuff ... not.

Old ghost thief had much more counterplay than this.

If you were playing Soulbeast the solution was to turn around and breathe on Mr. 21k. Reveal them and put them on the defensive, if they're forced to back off you don't even have to chase -- you can break combat and leave.

They're annoying, but pretty much any Mirage build (yes, even power) is much much worse. You can't 'unblockable' evasion frames.

~ Kovu

1. I didn't had Sic 'Em slotted and couldn't swap it in because i was permanently in combat.
2. Sic 'Em can't reveal a stealthed target, it requires a visible target in order to be applied.
3. Even if i had Sic 'Em slotted and if i managed to land it - it would do absolutely nothing, because the deadeye had Shadow Meld ...

Mirage can't perma evade, so it is possible to fight them back.

@MUDse.7623 said:

how can you fail to reach a tower/keep/spawn while spamming your leaps for 5 minutes?

Was an enemy owned map, there were no towers or keeps of my own server. What i could have done is go back to spawn. But do you really want to suggest, that it is ok for a build to essentially prevent me from playing, just with its presence?

Also lol @ anticipating every stealth burst attempt. I'm not a clairvoyant.

Why didn't you just do this:

A more patient deadeye would've easily won that encounter. The charr is running zero stunbreaks on a MM/BM build in mostly berserker gear with bear stance as its only condi clear. Binding shadows has a shorter cd than signet of stone and this soulbeast has no way to break the knockdown.

[Turk.5460]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:A more patient deadeye would've easily won that encounter. The charr is running zero stunbreaks on a MM/BM build in mostly berserker gear with bear stance as its only condi clear. Binding shadows has a shorter cd than signet of stone and this soulbeast has no way to break the knockdown.

Right. But if the person I was replying to had a stunbreak in addition to signet of stone, a LB 4+2 is not hard to retaliate with, which would make the DE completely on the defensive if not downed already. Allowing the Ranger to either stomp, or if the DE managed to stealth, briskly walk the other direction.

[Zyreva.1078]

If the Binding Shadow + DJ combo is pulled off properly there is very little time to react, since the cc is delayed and lands shortly before DJ hits. There is only like 1/4 s time to react. The ranger in the vid would have been dead before he used SoS - the DE there is just really bad, not even getting DJ off, just autoattacking for low dmg and not doing anything to defend himself. No need for LB or Sic 'Em to deal with players like this, so that's hardly a good example of how to counter DE.

The DE i was fighting used Shadow Meld immediately after DJ, so i had less than 1s to stunbreak, target the enemy and land both PBS and RF. When considering average human reaction time (~1/4s) and cast time of PBS (1/2s) it is not very realistic to pull this off reliable. It also doesn't matter if my RF puts the DE on defense, because that's where he is anyway when camping stealth. It would not prevent him from following and trying to gank again after healing back up.

My issue with DE isn't even so much the dmg, because dmg is over the top in general. It is the fact that they can stalk me pretty much infinitely, and there is nothing i can do against it other than hiding behind walls/at spawn or change map (if no queues). A player like this can basically prevent me from playing since it would be stupid to engage in any combat with a DE constanly on my heels. Sure, not many play like this, probably because it is super boring, but it shouldn't be possible to begin with.CnD got fixed to not work on walls to prevent uncounterable perma stealth (and this method had a lot more limitations than current DE stealth). Perma stealth trap thief got nerfed even though it actually had counterplay. But stealth on dodge + Shadow Meld are way more broken than those 2 things, so how can it be considered ok if those 2 other ways to attain perma stealth are not?

[Turk.5460]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:The DE i was fighting used Shadow Meld immediately after DJ, so i had less than 1s to stunbreak, target the enemy and land both PBS and RF. When considering average human reaction time (~1/4s) and cast time of PBS (1/2s) it is not very realistic to pull this off reliable.Yet Rangers are one of the counters to this type of DE because they are able to counter like this. It happens very often.@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:But stealth on dodge + Shadow Meld are way more broken than those 2 things, so how can it be considered ok if those 2 other ways to attain perma stealth are not?Stealth on Dodge, sure, and many Thieves agree. Shadow Meld though? I don't think I saw a single complaint about that skill before stealth on Dodge was implemented.

[Kovu.7560]

@Turk.5460 said:or if the DE managed to stealth, briskly walk the other direction.Or use a single leap. Soulbeast can spec for several. Won't take much to break combat unless the thief decides to follow while in stealth with low health, which is a risky play in its own right and will probably require some cooldown investments. Deadeye seems to be the one thief spec I usually can outrun on Soulbeast. Those always in stealth don't seem quite as fast -- though I haven't played a Deadeye so I can't speak to builds.I don't know. I'm not having the same issues as Umbra. All I can post is my experience. It sounds kind of newbish but longbow 4+2 solves a lot of my deadeye problems in 1v1 scenarios. (Group fights to be fair are a different beast; Soulbeasts, like any another ranger can be trained down pretty quickly compared to other professions.)

~ Kovu

[bq pd.2148]

@Kovu.7560 said:

@Turk.5460 said:or if the DE managed to stealth,

briskly walk the other direction

.Or use a single leap. Soulbeast can spec for several. Won't take much to break combat unless the thief decides to follow while in stealth with low health, which is a risky play in its own right and will probably require some cooldown investments. Deadeye seems to be the one thief spec I usually

can

outrun on Soulbeast. Those always in stealth don't seem quite as fast -- though I haven't played a Deadeye so I can't speak to builds.I don't know. I'm not having the same issues as Umbra. All I can post is my experience. It sounds kind of newbish but longbow 4+2 solves a lot of my deadeye problems in 1v1 scenarios. (Group fights to be fair are a different beast; Soulbeasts, like any another ranger can be trained down pretty quickly compared to other professions.)

~ Kovu

following in stealth with low life is not risky as you usually dont expect to get hit after a couple of seconds and leaving the initial area. and you either have traits/food to regen or use your heal skill while following. risky is only opening again from stealth while on low life, but you can stalk till you are full again.

most deadeyes like with any other profession are bad and if your decent on yours, you should have no issues. good deadeyes however should not die in any fight involving only 1 opponent as thats what the profession is build for X vs 1. but few people would call a good deadeye actually 'good', choosing a deadeye hes by default bad wich makes it worse losing against them.if a good ranger would allways win against an equally good DE, then the DE would stalk said ranger till he has enough envoiremental advantage to compensate and strike then. this would result in yet the deadeye winning regardless. because what really makes the DE strong in 1 vs 1 is his ability to pick the fight : when, where, who, how. with a decently picked fight you already took away most of your opponents counterplay. (obviously need to know what that opponent can and will do, wich is why bad deadeyes will often fail here).now there are also deadeyes decent at picking their fights but dont know all their options to avoid counterpressure, wich might be what umbra had faced. they might play careful enough not to die, but they play way too defensive given the tools they have. for example snipers cover can keep you safe from most rangers and holos, but i havent seen it used for that often yet by other deadeyes. trying to avoid that range pressure with stealth/CC will obviously take way more time. the only other option i think possible for umbras fight is that umbra is playing rather defensive and the deadeye needs a perfect burst to finish him so he just waits, wich is the correct thing to do in that case from a deadeyes point of view (or ofc leave him running away).

[Zyreva.1078]

Just for the record, i'm not dieing to every DE i come across, nor am i unable to kill any (even when i'm on core melee ranger ...). Many are about as dangerous as the player in the posted video. But there are situations where a simple 4+2 doesn't cut it. Same goes for "just walk away or use a single leap skill".

[bq pd.2148]

@"UmbraNoctis.1907" said:Just for the record, i'm not dieing to every DE i come across, nor am i unable to kill any (even when i'm on core melee ranger ...). Many are about as dangerous as the player in the posted video. But there are situations where a simple 4+2 doesn't cut it. Same goes for "just walk away or use a single leap skill".

should 4+2 be enough counter against a good deadeye in your opinion?that that would be like me expecting anyone to die from a binding shadows -> skirmirshers shot -> DJ opener. and indeed most opponents do die to that, but just most and not the good ones. (or the ones where passive traits would work against it like last stand)running away also works mostly as keeping up permastealth + your mobility requires resourcemanagement that many players simply cannot do.

or as said above: yes against a good deadeye in 1 vs 1 you will lose.if you want to win all your encounters you will need to play allways the most efficient setup. solo it is the one with the best picking tools, currently : DE. ranger is better in group fights. if you want to solo roam with it, you got to live with the fact that there might be a handfull of players out there that you cant deal with. treat them just the same as the little gank squads/roaming guilds.

[Kovu.7560]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:

@Turk.5460 said:or if the DE managed to stealth,

briskly walk the other direction

.Or use a single leap. Soulbeast can spec for several. Won't take much to break combat unless the thief decides to follow while in stealth with low health, which is a risky play in its own right and will probably require some cooldown investments. Deadeye seems to be the one thief spec I usually

can

outrun on Soulbeast. Those always in stealth don't seem quite as fast -- though I haven't played a Deadeye so I can't speak to builds.I don't know. I'm not having the same issues as Umbra. All I can post is my experience. It sounds kind of newbish but longbow 4+2 solves a lot of my deadeye problems in 1v1 scenarios. (Group fights to be fair are a different beast; Soulbeasts, like any another ranger can be trained down pretty quickly compared to other professions.)

~ Kovu

following in stealth with low life is not risky as you usually dont expect to get hit after a couple of seconds and leaving the initial area. and you either have traits/food to regen or use your heal skill while following.

risky is only opening again from stealth while on low life

, but you can stalk till you are full again.

Sorry, that's more along the lines of what I meant. From what I've noticed a deadeye is not permanently stealthed and keeping pace with a mobility spec'd soulbeast -- at least not without breaking stealth to attack occasionally -- and the ranger has options for healing and damage mitigation as well. (two SoS's, blocks, merged pet damage mitigation, high uptime protection, a bit of stealth, evasion frames and mobility... Pick your poison.)

This is weird, I feel like I'm defending thief here which isn't right because I feel both DD and even core Acro are a tad overtuned -- I suppose my point is that in personal experience playing mainly ranger, DE is less threatening to deal with as a SB than other thief builds. I've never been one shot (or a series of shots in quick succession) by a DE while using zerk gear and marauder trinkets -- I can't say the same about other specs.

~ Kovu

[TwiceDead.1963]

Yeahhhh... It's pretty boring. No doubt about that.

[Duckota.4769]

I was actually thinking that never happens because they just never see each other lol.