Damage multipliers should not stack multiplicatively.

[Zenix.6198]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:weavers can be defensive and offensive at the same time, they aren’t sacrificing anything for their great survivability and great burst, smh.

Ye....this conversation is pointless.Sry for wasting everyones time.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Zenix.6198 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:weavers can be defensive and offensive at the same time, they aren’t sacrificing anything for their great survivability and great burst, smh.

Ye....this conversation is pointless.Sry for wasting everyones time.

People that know how to properly use the class understand that nothing is actually sacrificed, since you know using a skill doesn’t lock them out of using others, let’s not forget Weaver gets dual attunements which shore up the weakness of the individual attunements... it’s clear to see when people don’t know how to properly evaluate classes or know how to properly use their class.

[JayAction.9056]

@Zenix.6198 said:If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

You can do that on weaver. Just because YOU can’t doesnt mean it’s not possible.

OP got destroyed by trash REV playing zerk amulet because he’s horrible.

OP had a dodge, all utility skills and his heal still available btw. Kind of embarrassing of you to post this. You spam your 3 skill in panic and eat like 6 attacks from somebody playing berserker amulet with nothing done in that time period.

What did you expect?

[Justine.6351]

A power reaper complaining about getting wrecked in a 1v1 by a power build is a bit ironic considering what a power reaper can do with its pbaoe cleave to multiple foes in its radius. Note how Soul Spiral doesn't split its damage between targets like Unrelenting Assault.

What many people who ask for this cant seem to math out is the fact that the difference in multiplied vs additive is like 20% on the extreme side with ALL the multipliers setup for the scenario. The obvious exception is Soul Beast with 40% and 50% damage modifiers.

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:I suggested this a couple months ago in general discussion, the thread was removed.

Damage modifiers should stack additively, not multiplicatively

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/748290

And the dishonesty continues...It wasn't removed. After showing how little you understood the math behind damage multipliers you just kept on going and people lost interest trying to debate/teach you.

[Crinn.7864]

@witcher.3197 said:You died while having enough endurance to dodge. Rev damage is crazy but this was your fault. Had you placed weakness on him after dodging sword 3 you would've probably won.

And that was after using a CC while blinded.. misplaycity

AND you had enough time to heal but you chose to attack for no reason. L2PI've only got exactly 2 evades as a necro and rev sword3 is typically not worth burning a extremely precious dodge charge on. Yeah sure looking back with hindsight knowing that the sword3 would do 17k damage makes it obvious that it should have been dodged, but in the moment where you don't know that the skill is going to hit for almost 3 times as much damage as it typically would it's not a bad play.

I was also aware that he blinded me when I casting RS5, but I was more interested in seeing if I could bait a dodge, plus I wanted the chill field down.

[Crinn.7864]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:You got hit for 17k from a S3. S3 is highly telegraphed and doesn't hit all the damage instantly. There are other skills in the game on other classes that can do twice this damage instantly and in many cases from stealth with no telegraph or animation at all. You had enough endurance for an evade, but didn't use it.

TL;DR you got outplayed.

I'm sorry I didn't realize I needed to blow my precious dodge charge on a skill that almost never does more than 6k.

Survival in this game is heavily reliant on being able to anticipate what is worth a dodge and what isn't worth a dodge. When you have skills that arbitrarily do three times the damage they would normally simply because the stars aligned it undermines this, you end up destroying the ability of the player to read the fight becuase of arcane modifiers causing wild deltas

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@"Eugchriss.2046" said:It s just pure luck. The rev had 25 stack might AND he had the 2 beasts boons AND you had 25 stack vuln.

Maybe classes shouldn't be able to stack that much damage mods in 4s?

The rev had 0 boons at 0:15, with his first boons at 0:16. He had 20 might in addition to fury when he began Unrelenting Assault at 0:20. Worth pointing out that I only had 18 vuln when I was hit not 25, and that I was using a Paladin's Amulet so it's not like I didn't have any toughness.

Next time don t chase off point I guess....Why shouldn't I? I had the option of engaging the Mesmer or the Rev. My class can't do kitten against a Mesmer, but I can do something against a rev. Moreover I knew from previous experience that the rev wasn't particularly good and that I could best him easily, a assumption that was quickly confirmed by I was besting him up until he pressed 3 on his keyboard and deleted me from existence.

The entire reason I made this thread is because I essentially got robbed because I had no way to expect that a skill that normally doesn't exceed 6k damage would hit me for 17k. This isn't a problem exclusive to revenant either. I've seen 12k Warrior GS3, 4k engi rifle autos, literally everything soulbeast does. The damage formulation in this game is fundamentally broken.

Hmm.. I've never ever seen an a engi rifle auto exceed 2500 with might and vuln in PvP. I think that's not a skill you would lump in a "scaling out of control" pile.

Source: Hipshot god

Question: If I didn't have the video that is in the OP, would you have believed me when if I said that my paladin's reaper got hit for 17k by Unrelenting Assault? I would guess not, because 17k is a pretty absurd number for that skill. Yet it obviously did happen. I have 100% been hit by a 4k rifle auto before and you just have to take my word on it. Yeah it's not something that happens all the time, but it happens and it's gamebreaking when it does.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:I suggested this a couple months ago in general discussion, the thread was removed.

Damage modifiers should stack additively, not multiplicatively

The comment was removed because you posted in across more than one subforum. The topic is fine.

[zealex.9410]

@Madisonlee.9641 said:I respect the OP's opinion but my personal opinion is that huge numbers are fun and without them the game would be a lot more boring

It would also be alot more balanced.

[zealex.9410]

@"Zenix.6198" said:While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.ORSecond: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

Wouldnt making dmg buffs additive be a direct nerf to rev's dmg output and as a result rev would look for maybe more tankyness to offset the risks for the increased ttk?

[zealex.9410]

@"Crinn.7864" said:

Traits that increase outgoing damage should stack additively in order to eliminate the runaway damage numbers that certain builds have.

I saw the clip a couple of days ago and it was silly ye. Tho to be completely honest idk if i prefer them stacking additively or simply being much harder to stack and require team effort to do so. Which one would you prefer?

[Zenix.6198]

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Zenix.6198" said:While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.ORSecond: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

Wouldnt making dmg buffs additive be a direct nerf to rev's dmg output and as a result rev would look for maybe more tankyness to offset the risks for the increased ttk?

I dont think so tbh.Like, if we multiply all the dmg mods with each other (for revenant), the extra dmg we get in comparison to an additive stack is very insignificant.

some quick napkin-maffs:

Vicious Laceration: (3x) 3 = 9%Targeted Destruction: 7%Ferocious Aggression: 7%Reinforced Potency: ~4% (assuming 4 boons as a realistic value)Forceful Persistence: 13% (just assuming max value cause Im lazy atm)

So additively those would be 40%.Multiplicatively those would be: 1.07x1.09x1.07x1.04x1.13 = 46.6%

Unless this is wrong, it doesn't seem like that much of an issue.So instead of getting hit for 17k, you would instead be hit for ~16k.

Please correct me if im wrong here.

[Zenix.6198]

@Zenix.6198 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Zenix.6198 said:While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.ORSecond: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

Wouldnt making dmg buffs additive be a direct nerf to rev's dmg output and as a result rev would look for maybe more tankyness to offset the risks for the increased ttk?

I dont think so tbh.Like, if we multiply all the dmg mods with each other (for revenant), the extra dmg we get in comparison to an additive stack is very insignificant.

some quick napkin-maffs:

Vicious Laceration: (3x) 3 = 9%Targeted Destruction: 7%Ferocious Aggression: 7%Reinforced Potency: ~4% (assuming 4 boons as a realistic value)Forceful Persistence: 13% (just assuming max value cause Im lazy atm)

So additively those would be 40%.Multiplicatively those would be: 1.07x1.09x1.07x1.04x1.13 = 46.6%

Unless this is wrong, it doesn't seem like that much of an issue.So instead of getting hit for 17k, you would instead be hit for ~16k.

Please correct me if im wrong here.

Edit: Okay, so If you add crit dmg as an additional modifier (and rev crits basically all the time), you get to about 11% more dmg with a multiplicative stack instead of an additive stack. Which is a bit more substantial

[Crinn.7864]

@Zenix.6198 said:

@Zenix.6198 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Zenix.6198 said:While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.ORSecond: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

Wouldnt making dmg buffs additive be a direct nerf to rev's dmg output and as a result rev would look for maybe more tankyness to offset the risks for the increased ttk?

I dont think so tbh.Like, if we multiply all the dmg mods with each other (for revenant), the extra dmg we get in comparison to an additive stack is very insignificant.

some quick napkin-maffs:

Vicious Laceration: (3x) 3 = 9%Targeted Destruction: 7%Ferocious Aggression: 7%Reinforced Potency: ~4% (assuming 4 boons as a realistic value)Forceful Persistence: 13% (just assuming max value cause Im lazy atm)

So additively those would be 40%.Multiplicatively those would be: 1.07x1.09x1.07x1.04x1.13 = 46.6%

Unless this is wrong, it doesn't seem like that much of an issue.So instead of getting hit for 17k, you would instead be hit for ~16k.

Please correct me if im wrong here.

Edit: Okay, so If you add crit dmg as an additional modifier (and rev crits basically all the time), you get to about 11% more dmg with a multiplicative stack instead of an additive stack. Which is a bit more substantial

You also didn't account for vulnerability, (18 stacks in the vid) nor for damage modifiers from runes (such strength runes or scholar runes)

If you do you get and additive of 63% (ferocity not included) and a multiplicative of 81%. Including ferocity in that number gets 165% additive and 366% multiplicative.

[anduriell.6280]

Friends i agree with the OP. Part of guilt on some of the ridiculous numbers we have seen on the soulbeast is the amount of small percentage damage buffs (not Sicem as that one is merely around 25% in PvP)

Still in my opinion this would be a good long term solution as it would be much easier to manage the increased damage. It can be as easy as just change the +5% to damage to +5% to power or ferocity.

Just keep in mind i don't think this would solve the one shot builds but IMO it would make the one-shot skills more manageable.

[rev in love.8439]

@"Crinn.7864" said:

Traits that increase outgoing damage should stack additively in order to eliminate the runaway damage numbers that certain builds have.

I do not know why, but I have to rectify your irony, I just play REV and I can prove it to you, I've tried all the damage constructions and the 3 of the sword. You should ALWAYS dodge it if you are alone vs rev, 5x 1.5 ~ 2k is the damage that He usually does unrelenting assault. And you had things to counteract it ... I'm surprised you do not scream nerf backstab 18 ~ 20k from stealth ... What I think is absurd is your version of "that sword 3 is not a skill that has to dodge" oks show your ltp needed :)

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@rev in love.8439 said:

@"Crinn.7864" said:

Traits that increase outgoing damage should stack additively in order to eliminate the runaway damage numbers that certain builds have.

I do not know why, but I have to rectify your irony, I just play REV and I can prove it to you, I've tried all the damage constructions and the 3 of the sword. You should ALWAYS dodge it if you are alone vs rev, 5x 1.5 ~ 2k is the damage that He usually does unrelenting assault. And you had things to counteract it ... I'm surprised you do not scream nerf backstab 18 ~ 20k from stealth ... What I think is absurd is your version of "that sword 3 is not a skill that has to dodge" oks show your ltp needed :)

Certain people cry Nerf whenever they lose to anything, a quick perusal of posts shows this, nothing ever changes, certain people never see themselves as being the issue or hold themselves accountable for poor play/lack of skill, it’s always some outside factor that is the problem and needs to be nerfed.

[zealex.9410]

@rev in love.8439 said:

@"Crinn.7864" said:

Traits that increase outgoing damage should stack additively in order to eliminate the runaway damage numbers that certain builds have.

I do not know why, but I have to rectify your irony, I just play REV and I can prove it to you, I've tried all the damage constructions and the 3 of the sword. You should ALWAYS dodge it if you are alone vs rev, 5x 1.5 ~ 2k is the damage that He usually does unrelenting assault. And you had things to counteract it ... I'm surprised you do not scream nerf backstab 18 ~ 20k from stealth ... What I think is absurd is your version of "that sword 3 is not a skill that has to dodge" oks show your ltp needed :)

I dont think his issue is the skill rather how much dmg mods can scale it off the charts.

[MyPuppy.8970]

How do damage reduction work though? Do they stack multiplicatively as well?

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@MyPuppy.8970 said:How do damage reduction work though? Do they stack multiplicatively as well?

Yep, some stacked additively while other multiplicatively but got changed to multiplicative due to unintended stacking which allowed to reduce almost all damage taken, ie Rite Of the Great Dwarf was changed from additive.

[Zenix.6198]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Zenix.6198 said:

@Zenix.6198 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Zenix.6198 said:While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.ORSecond: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

Wouldnt making dmg buffs additive be a direct nerf to rev's dmg output and as a result rev would look for maybe more tankyness to offset the risks for the increased ttk?

I dont think so tbh.Like, if we multiply all the dmg mods with each other (for revenant), the extra dmg we get in comparison to an additive stack is very insignificant.

some quick napkin-maffs:

Vicious Laceration: (3x) 3 = 9%Targeted Destruction: 7%Ferocious Aggression: 7%Reinforced Potency: ~4% (assuming 4 boons as a realistic value)Forceful Persistence: 13% (just assuming max value cause Im lazy atm)

So additively those would be 40%.Multiplicatively those would be: 1.07x1.09x1.07x1.04x1.13 = 46.6%

Unless this is wrong, it doesn't seem like that much of an issue.So instead of getting hit for 17k, you would instead be hit for ~16k.

Please correct me if im wrong here.

Edit: Okay, so If you add crit dmg as an additional modifier (and rev crits basically all the time), you get to about 11% more dmg with a multiplicative stack instead of an additive stack. Which is a bit more substantial

You also didn't account for vulnerability, (18 stacks in the vid) nor for damage modifiers from runes (such strength runes or scholar runes)

If you do you get and additive of 63% (ferocity not included) and a multiplicative of 81%. Including ferocity in that number gets 165% additive and 366% multiplicative.

Imo it's kind of iffy to include vuln stacks in this calc, since its application and maintenance (in relevant quantities) are very situation- and MU-dependant. Fair point on the rune tho....can throw in another 1.05 mod for strength runes (since i dont think scholar runes are good on rev).

Also what do you mean by "Including ferocity in that number gets 165% additive..."?

Edit: Nvm. I assume you meant 265% and that was a typo.But ...so you want ferocity to stack additively with dmg modifiers as well?Cause that would be a huge nerf to all powerspecs in general.

[Crinn.7864]

@Zenix.6198 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Zenix.6198 said:

@Zenix.6198 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Zenix.6198 said:While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.ORSecond: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

Wouldnt making dmg buffs additive be a direct nerf to rev's dmg output and as a result rev would look for maybe more tankyness to offset the risks for the increased ttk?

I dont think so tbh.Like, if we multiply all the dmg mods with each other (for revenant), the extra dmg we get in comparison to an additive stack is very insignificant.

some quick napkin-maffs:

Vicious Laceration: (3x) 3 = 9%Targeted Destruction: 7%Ferocious Aggression: 7%Reinforced Potency: ~4% (assuming 4 boons as a realistic value)Forceful Persistence: 13% (just assuming max value cause Im lazy atm)

So additively those would be 40%.Multiplicatively those would be: 1.07x1.09x1.07x1.04x1.13 = 46.6%

Unless this is wrong, it doesn't seem like that much of an issue.So instead of getting hit for 17k, you would instead be hit for ~16k.

Please correct me if im wrong here.

Edit: Okay, so If you add crit dmg as an additional modifier (and rev crits basically all the time), you get to about 11% more dmg with a multiplicative stack instead of an additive stack. Which is a bit more substantial

You also didn't account for vulnerability, (18 stacks in the vid) nor for damage modifiers from runes (such strength runes or scholar runes)

If you do you get and additive of 63% (ferocity not included) and a multiplicative of 81%. Including ferocity in that number gets 165% additive and 366% multiplicative.

Imo it's kind of iffy to include vuln stacks in this calc, since its application and maintenance (in relevant quantities) are very situation- and MU-dependant. Fair point on the rune tho....can throw in another 1.05 mod for strength runes (since i dont think scholar runes are good on rev).

Also what do you mean by "Including ferocity in that number gets 165% additive..."?

Edit: Nvm. I assume you meant 265% and that was a typo.But ...so you want ferocity to stack additively with dmg modifiers as well?Cause that would be a huge nerf to all powerspecs in general.

I used a ferocity value of 2.02 with a rune modifier of 1.05 which would be equal to a Scholar + Marauder setup.

No 165% is the correct value. I did typo in that it should have been 267% for the multiplicative. So it's 165% damage gain vs 267% damage gain. The actual modifiers are 2.65 and 3.67 but do remember that a modifier of 1.0 means no damage change, for clarity I chopped off 1.0 so that the percentage is only the percentage gained. In other words simply switching from additive damage modifiers to multiplicative modifiers resulted in 102% more damage output.

My concern is that I want to bring the damage delta for skills down, not for just rev but for everyone. For example as a necro I often get frustrated by the insane delta on how much damage Ghastly Claws does. I've seen everything from 3k (no crits and no mods) to 13k+ (stars aligned) thus meaning the skill has a damage range of negligible to instant win. This is not conductive to a good experience when I can't trust on my burst skills to burst and can't trust my opponents filler skills to actually do filler damage.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Madisonlee.9641 said:I respect the OP's opinion but my personal opinion is that huge numbers are fun and without them the game would be a lot more boring

I agree with Madison.

Additionally, a few points I'd like to make:

1. There are a lot of classes that require the damage to stack in the way that it currently does now or they wouldn't be viable at all. In other words, all competitive balance in the game is designed around the way damage multiplies and if anet were to change that, they'd need to seriously overhaul every class with that change or it would break the game in ways that will take years for current patching speeds to fix.
2. The game is currently already another bunker wars meta, even within this high dps meta. Changing multiplicative damage stacking will seal the deal on a game meta where players are unable to kill each other. That's gonna get real boring, real fast.
3. Hey I'm not saying changes couldn't be made, but it's important to identify the real problem here, and that problem in my opinion is not the way damage stacks, but rather power creep in general. Things were fine for 6 years up until recently when every class suddenly began vomiting 25 stacks of might, quickness, and every other boon in game with nearly 100% uptimes.

[messiah.1908]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Zenix.6198 said:

@Zenix.6198 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Zenix.6198 said:While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.ORSecond: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

Wouldnt making dmg buffs additive be a direct nerf to rev's dmg output and as a result rev would look for maybe more tankyness to offset the risks for the increased ttk?

I dont think so tbh.Like, if we multiply all the dmg mods with each other (for revenant), the extra dmg we get in comparison to an additive stack is very insignificant.

some quick napkin-maffs:

Vicious Laceration: (3x) 3 = 9%Targeted Destruction: 7%Ferocious Aggression: 7%Reinforced Potency: ~4% (assuming 4 boons as a realistic value)Forceful Persistence: 13% (just assuming max value cause Im lazy atm)

So additively those would be 40%.Multiplicatively those would be: 1.07x1.09x1.07x1.04x1.13 = 46.6%

Unless this is wrong, it doesn't seem like that much of an issue.So instead of getting hit for 17k, you would instead be hit for ~16k.

Please correct me if im wrong here.

Edit: Okay, so If you add crit dmg as an additional modifier (and rev crits basically all the time), you get to about 11% more dmg with a multiplicative stack instead of an additive stack. Which is a bit more substantial

You also didn't account for vulnerability, (18 stacks in the vid) nor for damage modifiers from runes (such strength runes or scholar runes)

If you do you get and additive of 63% (ferocity not included) and a multiplicative of 81%. Including ferocity in that number gets 165% additive and 366% multiplicative.

so if you use you are all weaklings no crit at all. which could save your life

[sephiroth.4217]

If this thread is about damage modifiers then you should know Elementalists have a lot of damage modifiers too.Not sure why people would want that nerfed, but im also assuming people thought about things in the overall picture before they posted.

If the thread is about Rev and nerfing Rev then I cant say much, rather see the damage on ranger toned down.

[Snellibee.2761]

You basically stood still and let him use everything he had on you and you're crying about him doing too much damage? What?This is a good lesson why you should use your dodges and not facetank anyone.