Episode 5 SPOILERS topic.

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@perilisk.1874 said:Well, someone is foreseeing things, anyway, based on what Ogden said. If not Glint, there's another prophet out there. Probably another of Kraalkatorik's line, considering it seems to run in the blood. Or crystals. Or whatever.

There's more prophets in the GW lore than merely crystal dragons. There's plenty of fortune tellers (LEGIT ones at that), and multiple priests/priestesses in GW1 are given visions of the future by gods - Dwayna giving Meerak a vision of the Searing, Lyssa giving Kehanni a vision of Sunspears coming from Kourna through the old corsair tunnels.

@"Tyson.5160" said:So I posted this on an older topic, with the discovery that Kralkatorrik also has prophetic visions, is that his second magical sphere of influence? Seems to be an ability only native to Kralkatorrik and his kin.

I'm still convinced the second sphere is sky or air. I think prophecy might just be a part of the crystal domain, given that crystals are used for changing perspective and multiplying views. On top of crystal balls as Eekasquak said.

On top of that, however, the line by Glint doesn't necessarily mean Kralkatorrik literally prophecized a world without him. The Commander says such, but honestly, "Kralkatorrik foresaw a world at peace between mortal and dragon" doesn't really sound prophetic to me, it sounds akin to Martin Luther King Jr.'s "I have a dream" speech. That Kralkatorrik realized the possibility of such a world, and worked against it.

Crystal - and prophecy - has always felt far too niche of a domain to me, compared to the capabilities and broadness of things like death and mind.

The journal itself does state Kralkatorrik had a prophecy.

Crystal Dragon

I went over the plan of attack and did what I could to reassure our gathered forces that we had Kralkatorrik's own prophecy — his vision of a world without him — on our side.

Scion and Champion

Glint then revealed Kralkatorrik's greatest secret: in a vision, he had foreseen a world without him, a world at peace. And it had terrified him.

I believe it was a bit wishy washy in the first mission dialogue, but was further stated in the speech of the final mission.

I do admit that this ability could be linked to the Crystal sphere. If Kralkatorrik is defeated in the next episode, I hope this second sphere of influence isn’t glossed over.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

Yo i got new theories. So glint and aurene can't see visions past there deaths. Kralk sees a vision of a peaceful world without him, but he still sees this vision even tho in this future world he is "gone". Aurene sees her death and it would have happened no matter what strategy they chose. So two things we know from this are that you can't have visions of your death or past it if you are permanently dead, and Both kralk and aurene see visions without themselves alive, so we know neither will permanantly die (I think). We know aurene and kralk have frequencies to cancel each other out. Maybe aurene needs to merge with kralk thus forming a neutral, or good dragon. Neither ones is dead, each vision was correct, and we use kralks weakness, its own powers, to convert it. Forgotten weren't strong enough to do it, but after aurene ascends she is strong enough to do what the forgotten couldn't. Ascensions might require sacrificing your mortal body and passing through more mist trials. Its the final step. We know ascension before requires the fighting of yourself, and aurene did that in the trials. Aurene also needed to stay alive until the final blast to save the rest of us and deplete kralks energy.

[Fenom.9457]

Everyone acts like the only dragons we have to choose from are ones we already know about from GW1, but remember more could be anywhere out there in the world. Regular dragons do seem fairly rare (except wyverns but they can’t replace EDs right?), but we could easily find more out there. Could be all our allies spread out hunting rumors, looking for new dragons, and S5 is is trying to recruit one

[Edelweiss.4261]

@"Jaken.6801" said:I personaly don't enjoy the thing where Glint explained the reasoning of Kralkatorrik.Not before giving us a real reason behind what Elder Dragons do. I mean, all we know is that they are there for some kind of balance and thus akin to a natural force.Now he is just scared about a possible future, where he isn't there... all signs of a self fullfilling prophecy aside, he could do other stuff instead of lashing out. Right now he is just a petty big bad, who is afraid to loose his standing...

I dunno. I feel like we are missing steps here. Kralki being so humanised feels kinda wrong. I mean, sure. The others allready went there, but why does it have to be spelled out.

More so, this whole reasoning didn't really answer anything and I felt like I learned more or less nothing new in that scene. Well, there are hopes for Aurene to come back, with ascension and stuff. It's about time, that plays a role again. Not like it was something big in GW1, you know.

Glad to see others took issue with this as well. The "force of nature" has become human (as was my problem with Mordremoth).

[Zola.6197]

The elder dragons should have always been assumed to have sentience and agenda. They clearly all had a goal otherwise their corrupting and commanding of armies (many with sentient soldiers receiving explicit roles/commands from said dragons, especially Zhaitan).

It’s more the people of tyria that have framed them as forces of nature due to the seemingly unstoppable level of their power and ability to enact mass destruction.

[Mickey Frogeater.1470]

ArenaNet clearly never intended for any of the Elder Dragons to be mindless as shown by the Novels. The reason the writers called them forces of nature is because they are forces of nature. Kralkatorrik can become a Crystal Sandstorm, Jormag can become a Blizzard, Primordius is a mass of Lava and Mordremoth is the Maguuma Jungle itself with a head and neck made of wood growing from the heart of the Jungle.

The Elder Dragons are sentient scheming forces of nature with discernable goals. They are not Eldritch Abominations(Abaddon is the closest to that)!

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Tyson.5160 said:The journal itself does state Kralkatorrik had a prophecy.

Crystal Dragon

I went over the plan of attack and did what I could to reassure our gathered forces that we had Kralkatorrik's own prophecy — his vision of a world without him — on our side.

Scion and Champion

Glint then revealed Kralkatorrik's greatest secret: in a vision, he had foreseen a world without him, a world at peace. And it had terrified him.

I believe it was a bit wishy washy in the first mission dialogue, but was further stated in the speech of the final mission.

I do admit that this ability could be linked to the Crystal sphere. If Kralkatorrik is defeated in the next episode, I hope this second sphere of influence isn’t glossed over.

To be fair, the journal is written by the Commander. They think it was a vision, that much is ahem crystal clear, but Glint doesn't state such. That was my point. Glint's wording is ambiguous that it could mean a literal vision, or just imagining such; regardless, the Commander interpreted her words to mean the former. Unreliable narrator, Anet loves (over)using them.

@"Edelweiss.4261" said:Glad to see others took issue with this as well. The "force of nature" has become human (as was my problem with Mordremoth).

The entire "force of nature" was obviously, since the release of Edge of Destiny, nothing more than Tyrian appropriation to the Elder Dragons. The Elder Dragons were always sapient beings - I wouldn't call them "become human" per se, given that they're still pretty damn far above human capability - but this is nothing new. It's been there since proverbial day 1.

[perilisk.1874]

@Fenom.9457 said:Everyone acts like the only dragons we have to choose from are ones we already know about from GW1, but remember more could be anywhere out there in the world. Regular dragons do seem fairly rare (except wyverns but they can’t replace EDs right?), but we could easily find more out there. Could be all our allies spread out hunting rumors, looking for new dragons, and S5 is is trying to recruit one

So, we spend the last episode of the season sitting around being bummed, and Kraalkatorik stops eating reality for a year and a half to let us cobble together a new plan?

No, in three months, Aurene will be alive (for some definition of alive) and Kraalkatorik will be dead.

[Mic.1897]

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:Also where the kitten were Marjory and Kasmeer.

And the answer to what we can do is simples, go find the Gods and get them to help in some manner because CLEARLY everything we're coming up with doesn't work.

That manner would probably involve resurrecting Aurene but who knows at this point. ArenaNet threw a curveball.

Forget the gods

We need Zojja

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I agree with prophecy being related to the crystal side of kralk. Heck we craft vision crystals all the time.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

But where did all aurenes magic go? Kralk would have looked a little better if he absorbed it, and its not scattered around. Besides the joko and the visions not being the end arguments, I think this is another solid point. Things dying have been showing a release of energy for a long while but it was left out this time, maybe cuz of the blackout but idk.

[Cuddy.6247]

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:go find the Gods and get them to help in some manner

bUt tHe CatAcLySmIc dEstRucTioN of TYriA.

Really though after this episode I question even harder why we killed Balthazar. So...we should've let him use the dragonsblood spear, Aurene and his superpowers to wipe the elder dragon off the face of Tyria. Tell me, what exactly about our plan is any different than his plan? Like other than we are coaxing Aurene into being a sponge willingly while Balthazar was using her as the proxy between Kralkatorrik and being a sponge himself.

Like...what actually happened. What. Actually. Happened.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Cuddy.6247 said:Really though after this episode I question even harder why we killed Balthazar. So...we should've let him use the dragonsblood spear, Aurene and his superpowers to wipe the elder dragon off the face of Tyria. Tell me, what exactly about our plan is any different than his plan? Like other than we are coaxing Aurene into being a sponge willingly while Balthazar was using her as the proxy between Kralkatorrik and being a sponge himself.Balthazar was trying to kill Kralk before Aurene was capable of taking on the role of an Elder Dragon, and thus, would have destroyed the planet in the process.

We are only trying to kill Kralk now because Aurene IS ready, supposedly, to do so.

[Cuddy.6247]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Cuddy.6247 said:Really though after this episode I question even harder why we killed Balthazar. So...we should've let him use the dragonsblood spear, Aurene and his superpowers to wipe the elder dragon off the face of Tyria. Tell me, what exactly about our plan is any different than his plan? Like other than we are coaxing Aurene into being a sponge willingly while Balthazar was using her as the proxy between Kralkatorrik and being a sponge himself.Balthazar was trying to kill Kralk before Aurene was capable of taking on the role of an Elder Dragon, and thus, would have destroyed the planet in the process.

We are only trying to kill Kralk now because Aurene IS ready, supposedly, to do so.

So ready that she got shish kabobed.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Cuddy.6247 said:So ready that she got shish kabobed.Her dying was always a possibility no matter the scenario, that doesn't change the fact she fundamentally wasn't ready to take on an Elder Dragon's magic at that moment.

[Tyson.5160]

If Aurene does come back because of Joko ability to not die, it would kind of give a reason for Joko to be killed in the first place.

I was also wondering about why they showed Glint’s body in this release. Was it for an oh cool factor or was it hinting at something else? Maybe Aurene reviving Glint or perhaps doing a mind transfer to her corpse using both her Mordremoth Zhaitan magic and maybe because of Joko? Maybe Aurene will return in Glint’s body and now we have a fair size dragon to take on Kralkatorrik’s magic.

[Fenom.9457]

@perilisk.1874 said:

@Fenom.9457 said:Everyone acts like the only dragons we have to choose from are ones we already know about from GW1, but remember more could be anywhere out there in the world. Regular dragons do seem fairly rare (except wyverns but they can’t replace EDs right?), but we could easily find more out there. Could be all our allies spread out hunting rumors, looking for new dragons, and S5 is is trying to recruit one

So, we spend the last episode of the season sitting around being bummed, and Kraalkatorik stops eating reality for a year and a half to let us cobble together a new plan?

No, in three months, Aurene will be alive (for some definition of alive) and Kraalkatorik will be dead.

Ok, that’s a good point and that is more like for this season. But still season5 could be us scouring the continent looking for a dragon to absorb the energy of another dragon, or all the loose magic from the first two so we can just straight up kill another.

[Amanda Whitemoon.6173]

what about the ghostly messenger that tells about kralky eating souls, looks like Gwen?

[Zania.8461]

Wild speculation: Kralk is actually dead.

All indications until the very last point of the episode was that we WERE killing him. Then all of a sudden big blast (from where?) and Aurene's body is impaled while Commander is safely blasted away (why?). So I will speculate that Aurene was not capable of taking over Kralk as an Elder Dragon in her own body. Neither was Glint during her confrontation (her memory during the visit to her lair states that she is not ready right before the confrontation). Instead she took over the weakened and dying dragon's body (combination of mordemoth's mind sphere, joko's awakening and perhaps some info from Glint) and slinkered away to make sure we won't finish her off before sorting this out.

Aurene's body dying had to be part of the plan - Glint was aware of it, Aurene was aware of it, but they went through with it anyway. Question is whether this is a long game (getting it branded/restored, possessing Caithe, etc), or was the main goal accomplished already.

[perilisk.1874]

@Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:what about the ghostly messenger that tells about kralky eating souls, looks like Gwen?

Pretty sure it was Gwen. She's quite recognizable to any GW1 vet. I thought it was a nice touch.

[jimmy.9560]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Cuddy.6247 said:Really though after this episode I question even harder why we killed Balthazar. So...we should've let him use the dragonsblood spear, Aurene and his superpowers to wipe the elder dragon off the face of Tyria. Tell me, what exactly about our plan is any different than his plan? Like other than we are coaxing Aurene into being a sponge willingly while Balthazar was using her as the proxy between Kralkatorrik and being a sponge himself.Balthazar was trying to kill Kralk before Aurene was capable of taking on the role of an Elder Dragon, and thus, would have destroyed the planet in the process.

We are only trying to kill Kralk now because Aurene IS ready, supposedly, to do so.

mmm...but isn't it quite possible that balthazar could've just replaced aurene, using aurene as a proxy? she'd be the digital to analog converter of kralky's RF signal. i mean, i assume that's why he was going after one of glint's offspring in the first place, no? otherwise why would he have cared at all? he sure wasn't going after them because he didn't think he could take on kralkatorrik...

i might just be thinking hypercritically here...but there were a lot of ethical controversies around balthazar's raid on elona, which made him for a decent villain still. but as far as his plan on killing kralk...well, i don't think we differed there. more like it was just a hastily thrown-together reason to establish conflict before any breach of ethics.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

He was using the scions to power the warbeast to weaken Kralkatorrik using the scion's shared resonance with Kralkatorrik. He had no intentions of creating a replacement, which would mean end of Tyria.

[jimmy.9560]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:He was using the scions to power the warbeast to weaken Kralkatorrik using the scion's shared resonance with Kralkatorrik. He had no intentions of creating a replacement, which would mean end of Tyria.

the intention was for him to be the replacement, no? like...that was the ENTIRE plan...to absorb the colossal amount of magic that is an elder dragon so he could be powerful enough to fight the other gods. otherwise he was just gallivanting around for no reason whatsoever.

[Castigator.3470]

@jimmy.9560 said:the intention was for him to be the replacement, no? like...that was the ENTIRE plan...to absorb the colossal amount of magic that is an elder dragon so he could be powerful enough to fight the other gods. otherwise he was just gallivanting around for no reason whatsoever.

Not really, the replacement would need to stay on Tyria and absorb incoming magic. Balthazar wanted to go after the other gods, Tyria be damned.

[Tanith.5264]

3. Aurene absorbed God magic. No specific connection to resurrection in that, but it is God magic.

I don't know about resurrection, but your post does remind me that there was a fleeting glimpse of Balthazar as we were delivering the final crystal blast to Kralky. I noted it, but there was so much going on at that point I couldn't look more closely.