PvE: how to increase map relevance?

[TexZero.7910]

@zealex.9410 said:

@"TexZero.7910" said:Given the vast amount of "things" in

the game you could start varryingrewards by adding things like gizmo's,mini-pets, toys, tonics(permanant),etc... to the potential loot of thesemeta's and make them thematic.

Its not like they've been doing that since se3.

They haven't.

This methodology was abanndoned when we got to PoF. Almost none of the map specific metas have anything unique tied to them. This is even more apparent in Season 4's maps as there's no real incentive to do their meta's outside of currency gain. The "unique items" on the map are generally removed from the meta's as a whole which reduces peoples overal play time for them unless there's a significant gap in GP/H as was seen with Istan farming.

TL;DR the map meta's that bring people together need to have not only a wider variety of rewards and less of the shoehorning of Aura's or just excessive loot.

[Skotlex.7580]

Another alternative could be to add to every ls4 Map meta a rare, tradable reward that is required to complete the collection for getting some legendary trinket associated to these maps (like Aurora was for ls3 maps). This would make sense after ls4 is finished and would keep the related metas relevant for a long time.

Though this is a solution just for ls4 map replay value. Core Tyria maps have "map rewards"which rotate, but I have no idea how successful that is as I've never bothered with it, even if the map reward is ectoplasm. :/

[DaFishBob.6518]

How about a new daily like the sunken treasure hunter daily?

Complete events in (insert LS map). Reward: 1 black lion chest key piece

5 black lion chest key pieces turn into a black lion chest key.

[joneirikb.7506]

TLDR: random rants, ignore and move on.

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I'm in favor of doing what they did with LS2 map, re-use and update/change them, adding more things each time, so the map eventually feels more "complete" and filled out with things to do.

I admit I haven't been to many of the later maps, but the ones I've been on felt pretty shallow compared to the older maps (tyria, ls2, hot, somewhat pof but they just feel so empty).

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Regarding using rewards as carrot for maps. I honestly think this is the wrong way to go, as you're just making existing "bad habits" worse sort of. Rewards should come from playing something you enjoy, not enjoying something because of the rewards. Well that is at least my philosophy, seemingly a lot of people disagrees with me. But on that note, here is a different idea:

Make rewards uniform over the entire game.

This could be done by for example changing the entire reward system into a sort of "reward track", by removing all loot and stuff from the normal ways, but instead having everything you do, no matter what (other than afk'ing) add to that reward track, as long as you maintain a fairly generous amount of activity you get rewards.

This would (hopefully) rewards everyone for just about anything they do normally in game (other than afk I guess), and would give people the same rewards no matter what they did. Then people could do what they enjoyed the most, instead of what they felt rewarded them the most.

Bound to be some problems with a system like that. Also, specific goal rewards should still remain as they are, I'm mostly talking about the general rewards (mostly gold/hour, loot, mats, karma etc. But could potentially also include XP...).

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Both outside of that, and could even work combined with that, having a rotating system of increased reward for a few random maps for a week might help break up the staleness a bit.

I'm not a fan of the usual mantra of "Add new unique rewards!" as I feel that is a band-aid solution, stuffed onto some grind to work. But an idea could be to add a system where 2 random maps each week got a "bonus reward" where getting X amount of activity/rewards on that maps gives you a single new currency, that you could trade in for a guaranteed access to some of the harder to get drops or other things that has rolled out of current time. Would be a way to roll in old things people might want back, but keeping it expensive.

[kharmin.7683]

@Leo G.4501 said:An invasion of pocket raptors in Iron Marches? Maybe I'd check it out. How about pocket raptors who all have the Burning Speed and Drake's Breath skill? Hmm, That seems rather insane. I'd think I'd HAVE to see that.To me, this is the problem really. Sure, you'd have to see these insane pocket raptors, but not everyone else would share that interest. How does ANet provide incentives to visit maps that would appeal to the largest portion of the player base? With so many different types of players (and interests), I'm not even sure that they could figure that out.

[Ashantara.8731]

@DoNotBelieveMe.3029 said:Your answer would be in the form of HoT map wide Metas.

The answer would be to introduce traditional quests that send you across the globe. We have enough meta events already, and it gets repetitive.

[Skotlex.7580]

@DaFishBob.6518 said:How about a new daily like the sunken treasure hunter daily?

Complete events in (insert LS map). Reward: 1 black lion chest key piece

5 black lion chest key pieces turn into a black lion chest key.

Some sort of repeatable achievement that were a mix of that sunken treasure one and the dungeon frequenter one could work well. Perhaps it could have a daily random map, and completing 4 events there grants a tick progress, and after seven days you complete it and earn a bl key (would be a valid alternative to making a new character and taking it to the level 10 story weekly, and getting the key from one method would block the other).

[DaFishBob.6518]

@Skotlex.7580 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:How about a new daily like the sunken treasure hunter daily?

Complete events in (insert LS map). Reward: 1 black lion chest key piece

5 black lion chest key pieces turn into a black lion chest key.

Some sort of repeatable achievement that were a mix of that sunken treasure one and the dungeon frequenter one could work well. Perhaps it could have a daily random map, and completing 4 events there grants a tick progress, and after seven days you complete it and earn a bl key (would be a valid alternative to making a new character and taking it to the level 10 story weekly, and getting the key from one method would block the other).

I don't know if blocking the methods is really a good idea, I'm concerned it would mostly null the suggestion entirely due to more people sticking with the level 10 story weekly instead of being sent to places they don't know in advance.

[daisyk.4523]

aurora v2 babyyy

and/or rewardable metas that have map-wide timers, are on a schedule, and preferably on maps that aren't too annoying to... just be in.

[flog.3485]

Maybe they could just drop instanced content in those maps and sort of...highly incentivize the player base to buy the next to be 12 maps from season 3 and 4.

[Lanhelin.3480]

Previously pretty populated maps were nerfed (like the champs in Queensdale) because other players felt disturbed by the crowd. Most events and activities are designed not to spread out in a map but to concentrate and form a crowd, be it normal events, bandits, bounties or world bosses. The Tarir's and Dragon's Stand's metas are designed to split into three to four crowds, moving further step by step. There is only one exception to this design (but then followed by a crowd-event): the nearly map-wide collection of wild magic in Elon Riverlands. The invasion events of joko's soldiers in core tyria maps also differ slightly, because they have more than one spawn locations, but in its core these are crowd-requiring-events too.

With this in mind, imho vitalizing maps can happen this way: if there's happening something that is needed to be completed for a higher goal. Currently these higher goals exist in form of collections and achievements on individual basis. It'd need some kind of Meta-Meta that includes more maps at the same time, so players have to spread out to complete it successfully. E.g. something like "Kryta caught the villain's eye. Secure areas all over Kryta to prevent the big bad thing." Random loot is obligatory here in GW2, but there also could be some less random like dungeon currency bags where players have a choice what to take as reward. For 99,9% of all players there still is something left they want, so the reward should be different enough to help them to achieve it, be it one of the currencies, crafting ressources or something else.

[Menadena.7482]

I would LOVE to see event dailies be for a region rather than a particular zone. I may have got that backwards, ie 'ascalon event completer' rather than 'diessa plateau event completer'. People doing dailies would spread out more into lesser used maps and maps that are better for finding events (which is not always the lowest level one) would attract more players, showing what people want.

[Glider.5792]

@zealex.9410 said:If we are getting one with every episode ofc the maps will feel like throwaway content.

We could compaire lw2 and lw3/4 for example: Silverwastes and drytop both have traffic years after their release.

Equal parts because they are rewarding but also because they are bussy with events and a map wide event like structure makimg playing in them better overtime.

We also didnt get more maps back then so they cpuld go back on these maps and simply expand them or add more content.

If they have to make and release a new map every 3 months that simply wont happen.

There are reasons why Drytop and Silverwastes are both still active, and they share one same reason: Account bound Materials for Legendary weapons.Ofc silverwastes is still more popular, due to realy rewarding meta, however due to collections and need for geodes and bandit crests, people are returning to both of these maps.This is where IMO ANet made a mistake. With LS3, they started releasing 2nd generation legendary weapons, and IMO the legendary which released in a specific episode, should require that episodes specific materials, probably around 250 (a stack) would be a good number. This way all of the maps would require more attention, at least from those that wish to build those legendaries.But sadly.. this wasn't realy a possible option, since ANet promised those legendaries as a HoT feature, which they still are. Due to that, those weapons couldn't be locked behind specific maps, especialy behind LS4 which belongs under PoF.

[maddoctor.2738]

The main problem with the living world maps is that they are treated as filler content. They can't easily add content to old maps because then they'd face backlash from those that weren't there when the episode was released. The system of the living world is what needs to be changed in order to increase living world map relevance. Arenanet needs to find a better way of handling their living world episodes, even very anti-consumer companies figured out that splitting the playerbase through "map packs" is a bad idea, and our living world maps work the same way as map packs and dlc of other games. Not to mention how newer players are required to pay extra to experience the story that leads up to the expansion they bought.

The whole system of unlocking the living world maps needs an overhaul, at the very least they should allow map access to everyone, lock the story maybe, but not the map itself, giving them the opportunity to work on the living world maps and add what was missing, like doing justice to Gandara with a proper meta and no invisible walls.

[Skotlex.7580]

There could be a discussion on whether metas should have a global timer, so that players know in advance when to visit a map, or internal instance timers, which forces people to stick around for the meta to trigger.

The downside of a meta approach is that people that for some reason need some non-meta related content (perhaps for a collection), they'll not be receiving help for their goal, so the meta isn't benefiting them at all. And then there's the issue of metas sharing timeslots and people going to the most profitable one only.

For that reason I'd prefer some kind of daily task / achievement that would allow any event to progress it.

@"Menadena.7482" said:I would LOVE to see event dailies be for a region rather than a particular zone. I may have got that backwards, ie 'ascalon event completer' rather than 'diessa plateau event completer'. People doing dailies would spread out more into lesser used maps and maps that are better for finding events (which is not always the lowest level one) would attract more players, showing what people want.

This could work. According to the wiki (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zone) , maps cover currently nine regions. However, some maps are much more popular than others, so when it's a "daily crystal desert event completer", you can bet most of the playerbase will do one Istan meta while Vabbi remains deserted. Perhaps this highlights that some maps really have low incentives to be visited currently.

[zealex.9410]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:The main problem with the living world maps is that they are treated as filler content. They can't easily add content to old maps because then they'd face backlash from those that weren't there when the episode was released. The system of the living world is what needs to be changed in order to increase living world map relevance. Arenanet needs to find a better way of handling their living world episodes, even very anti-consumer companies figured out that splitting the playerbase through "map packs" is a bad idea, and our living world maps work the same way as map packs and dlc of other games. Not to mention how newer players are required to pay extra to experience the story that leads up to the expansion they bought.

The whole system of unlocking the living world maps needs an overhaul, at the very least they should allow map access to everyone, lock the story maybe, but not the map itself, giving them the opportunity to work on the living world maps and add what was missing, like doing justice to Gandara with a proper meta and no invisible walls.

Farming the gold for unlocking an episode is cheap. They could also have a popup to sell the season(s) before an expansion for like x dollars if a player doesnt own it when hes looking to buy the expansion.

Or simply scrap the idea of a new map each release, focus on less big maps which you ad onto each episode and expand.

[zealex.9410]

@Skotlex.7580 said:There could be a discussion on whether metas should have a global timer, so that players know in advance when to visit a map, or internal instance timers, which forces people to stick around for the meta to trigger.

The downside of a meta approach is that people that for some reason need some non-meta related content (perhaps for a collection), they'll not be receiving help for their goal, so the meta isn't benefiting them at all. And then there's the issue of metas sharing timeslots and people going to the most profitable one only.

For that reason I'd prefer some kind of daily task / achievement that would allow any event to progress it.

@"Menadena.7482" said:I would LOVE to see event dailies be for a region rather than a particular zone. I may have got that backwards, ie 'ascalon event completer' rather than 'diessa plateau event completer'. People doing dailies would spread out more into lesser used maps and maps that are better for finding events (which is not always the lowest level one) would attract more players, showing what people want.

This could work. According to the wiki (

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zone

) , maps cover currently nine regions. However, some maps are much more popular than others, so when it's a "daily crystal desert event completer", you can bet most of the playerbase will do one Istan meta while Vabbi remains deserted. Perhaps this highlights that some maps really have low incentives to be visited currently.

No more dailies pls i dont liek the game feeling like a job. Daily log ind and dailies in general just make the game less enjoyable.

Also lets not talk about metas like we have 20 diff of them. We have like a bunch of worldbosses and we have no issue circling through them. The game can handle a bunch more metas on a schedule and not have real overlaps.

Its worth noting tjat for such non meta content that ppl migh wanted to do there were groups running it. Biggest example is the hot hp trains.

[Einlanzer.1627]

@"Carighan.6758" said:Honestly I'd go back a step further: How many maps does a game where we don't outgrow maps actually need?

The more maps you add, the less possible it becomes to keep them all relevant. It's similar to how the slew of skills, traits, item stats and all the billions of combinations cause balance issues: there's just too much, you could cut 95%++ and lose nothing of relevance because all these combinations would be factually sub-par.

With maps, it's that the sheer volume means you cannot find a sensible reason for each map to be around. Even if each were needed for a farm material which can only be obtained there, you can't freely repeat this, plus it leads to plenty fan-ire as it is quite obvious how forced this is.

A smarter solution, IMO, would be:

• Use new maps as sparingly as possible. Adapt the story and progression to either remove zones for story/lore reasons as new get added or transform existing zones into what you need them to be, effectively being replaced by a new map which just shares a few similarities and the name.
• Given the reduced pool of maps, categorize them into "farm maps" (you'd only need a handful of endgame materials since you don't have so many maps), "dangerous maps" (hold big metas, don't enter alone, like old Orr - higher money pay-off in a group in certain farm spots however!), "money maps" (efficient farm solo, less total income than dangerous maps of course). Each of the latter two types can exist once per common currency as farm maps are for materials.
• Re-align maps to the new balance, effectively giving one optimal spot for each context and desire.

I kinda disagree. To keep the game fresh for veteran players, new maps containing new reward tracks are needed to the same extent they are needed in any other continuous world game. The problem is when you have too many competing metas. All maps should have something for players to work toward, but true metas that require player cooperation should be relatively rare, otherwise you run the risk of splitting up players too much.

Additionally, I would implement a reward cycle that incentivizes different maps at different times. I.e. there would only be a couple of "best farm" maps at any given time, but which map this is would hop around a bit. Instead of always being, say, Silverwastes and Istan. It's a way to make old maps relevant again and have players congregrate in places like Southsun Cove or Malchor's Leap.

[DoNotBelieveMe.3029]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@DoNotBelieveMe.3029 said:Your answer would be in the form of HoT map wide Metas.

The answer would be to introduce traditional quests that send you across the globe. We have enough meta events already, and it gets repetitive.

I would invite you to come up with an example of a traditional quest that will allow maps to enjoy the longevity enjoyed by HoT meta maps such as Auric Basin.And what would the traditional quest offer to players? A breath of fresh air? If it is something to the extent of Aurora or perhaps the weapon design contest winners quest for eclipse, it will be just a temporary one time fix. How long of a list of unique skins will have to be designed to keep the maps perpetually relevant?

The 'current events' in game are already a sort of quest. When it is initially released, players milk them for all its worth and toss the maps involved aside after they are done collecting all the AP or skins associated with it. It usually doesn't take more than a week for the hype to end and then they go back to role-playing at Divinity's Reach, or doing some other reward farming.

My view is that if you are a solo player, you are driven by rewards, if you are a social player you are driven by group content, and HoT Metas combine both. It simply caters to the widest demographic. Also each meta is unique, how can it possibly be repetitive?

[Skotlex.7580]

@"Einlanzer.1627" said:Additionally, I would implement a reward cycle that incentivizes different maps at different times. I.e. there would only be a couple of "best farm" maps at any given time, but which map this is would hop around a bit. Instead of always being, say, Silverwastes and Istan. It's a way to make old maps relevant again and have players congregrate in places like Southsun Cove or Malchor's Leap.

hmm.... this sounds familiar, ain't this what the current core Tyria map rewards already are? Granted, the reward rotation is fixed, and LS maps have it set on "unbound / volatile magic", but the proper rewards could really serve this purpose. It all boils down to setting the criteria just right: rewarding enough to motivate people to be active in that map, without being too rewarding that it could disrupt the economy (like, say, placing amalgated stones as map reward could potentially crash their value).

[Menadena.7482]

One trend I shudder at is with core you had portals from one map to the next. With the new maps? Not so much, especially with the LW releases. It generates more of a waypoint to whatever zone rather than some of the traffic going through old zones. Which means that content in zones people have not seen in awhile is less likely to be encountered along the way. Even for new players because they are just WPing from one map to another. So you wind up with maps people have never actually been in because they did not happen to get there during 1-80 and do not have any reason to enter the map once they hit 80.

It is not like it would be impossible either. Several new maps have been next to or near existing ones.

[Shala.8352]

well yea i would like to have more continuity between maps, like the core game, where you could travel between maps as if they were a continuos of the landscape of the previous map. Aniway, about new maps, i think there will be no more usable space in tyria world map for having new maps XD. Where they will put the next one?

[joneirikb.7506]

Just a note on the thread in general: Rewards will always be a short term solution. Just adding X type of reward, just means people will come and grind it out and leave again.

[Hesacon.8735]

Increasing the amount of map bonus rewards in underplayed areas could attract some attention. Orr maps see play time on blood weeks.