Decreased quality of pugs

[Cyninja.2954]

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:@"Sweal.4659" said:

So i've been pugging recently quite a lot since we lost few members in our full clear static group. And what i've found in pug scared me. Before last changes to chrono, pugging bosses was possible, finding good group was hard but you could find it after few tries. But these days, even the easiest of all encounters is wipefest with any group i join. Have pugs really became so bad or worse, did people that actually know how to raid left after last patch?

Talking about both raids and fractals.

Fractals

I can tell you, that you and your static buddies (on a whole as a type of player, not just 5 ppl) are simply reaping what you sow. See i'm a offmeta reaper, that doesn't give kitten about "standards". I run crusader gear, I run blood magic, and Signets of Suffering instead of Close to Death and what not, ending up tanky, healy ressy son of a gun that gets his groups through fracs and beats content not by crazy skill, but by tough as nails build that gets my teammates through.

But there's a fair part of community that would lynch you if you're not running metabattle build and comps, if you didn't take potion then you're a "leecher" and should stop playing fracs. Well you prolly know I don't give a rat's kitten about none of this nonsense, but most ppl do. And that's how you get your full wipe teams. They are not ready for full dps/no sustain builds, especially in random groups where chronos, druids and what not are not guaranteed. But they run it cause they wanna be "leet" or not be scorned by "pros".

And so here you are with a problem, while i'm in fractals with solution, getting content cleared with potless, foodless and elitismless casual groups:>

The irony of it all, you are just as elitist and chest-thumping in your post as some people of the community you are complaining about. Turns out, even off-meta players who carry their groups can be elitist, who would have guessed.

TC is obviously used to good synergy and people performing, there is no fault in that. On the contrary, if people specifically decide to run a static instead of infesting the players pool with elitism, more power to them. Not sure how him having been in a static has anything to do with people lacking basic fractal ability and player skill.

Actually good players never discouraged off meta builds who can perform in their role. You still decided to lump every one together though.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:-snip-

Wrong. I'm a confident jerk with major attitute. But i'm' no elitist. Because elitists say "use this build or leave" and want to control every aspect of your build.I on the other hand while damn proud of being offmeta and having success with it, don't tell ppl what they should play. I got no issues with meta or offmeta runners in my fracs, nor do i demand they use foods/pots. Only issue i have is with someone trying to dictate how a person should play. Their character, their build, then know what works for them best.

I replied to OP - reason wipes happen is because this is not his static group, and due to peer pressure many ppl play "meta" which leaves little room for mistakes instead of going with builds that are suited to their skill and knowledge level. But that's my opnion here. I don't enforce that opinion on my teammates. That's the difference.

Also as for "actually good" players? That's "actually nice". There's a ton of douches that are amazing players, as well as total scrubs at it. Same for nice guys. Being good ingame and being a good person are two separate stories.

[Klypto.1703]

Instant traits played the game for those who only played necro for years and now that is gone you can see more clearly the player growth potential.

[borgs.6103]

In my experience, it's not the quality of pugs that decreased- it's the same on average. It's just that chronomancers can't carry the party anymore.

[zoomborg.9462]

@borgs.6103 said:In my experience, it's not the quality of pugs that decreased- it's the same on average. It's just that chronomancers can't carry the party anymore.

This is the thread in one sentence ;) oh w8 2 sentences.

[lare.5129]

fixed: It's just that chronomancers can't carry the party anymore if they don't understand that it is well and how far that can splint.

[Vinceman.4572]

@zoomborg.9462 said:

@borgs.6103 said:In my experience, it's not the quality of pugs that decreased- it's the same on average. It's just that chronomancers can't carry the party anymore.

This is the thread in one sentence ;) oh w8 2 sentences.

Chronomancers aren't and weren't a thing in usual T4 pugs. Maybe for CMs but not for the rest and additionally even if you had chronos in a casual T4 pug those couldn't even reach half of the potential of a decent chrono. The decrease in quality has not really much to do with the nerfs to chrono.Almost all of the people I played fractals from time to time have stopped doing so, me as well, and according to all the posts on reddit and some in this forum it's more an issue of many experienced players have left the game type.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I don't think its the pugs that changed insomuch as it is just harder to play support chrono. I have a nearly full diviner chrono right now, and the biggest problem I see is that pugs aren't used to stacking in wells or waiting at the mistlock thingy for doubled up boon. It has become pretty difficult to support the group because of this.

[Excursion.9752]

I've never had a full static team just a friend and I always post in LFG for the remaining 3 to do Fractals. He and I always play the support roles so we are always posting for Exp, Pots, Food, LF Dps. What I have found is that there are a lot of people out there that are not used to the fight mechanics of all the different encounters because the druid+chrono combo is not there to carry them anymore. Now you throw in the new instabilities which people are trying to get their grips on. Its just to much change at one time. You can tell a lot about your group just by seeing how you are doing on break bars how quick they are broke and are they at the appropriate times. It comes down to Fractal IQ and the lack there of.

Basically people are playing above their play grade. I know people don't like to hear that but some time you have to turn down the difficulty to better prepare for the bigger picture. Once you feel you are ready, try the Master Tier again. But do everyone a favor and put a little work in and understand what your class brings to each encounter. Watch some youtube videos invest some time into your character rather than just thinking since you have enough AR means you are properly ready to take on the world.

On a brighter note I had quite possibly one of the best runs last night with a pug group. Everyone was beaming about how good it went and it was nice to finish a run with no rage in my blood haha! Party Comp was Support Renegade, Support Firebrand, DPS Firebrand, DPS Dragon Hunter, DPS Scourge. I don't recall seeing anyone in a downed state throughout the whole run and it went quickly. Its not meta but it worked out!

[Nepster.4275]

The changes to chrono were good for one thing: Showing who can play the game, and also showing who got carried up to high Li and now wiping everywhere they join. If you take into consideration that basically around 5% of the player base plays raids daily/weekly you will get a really low number, now atleast half of those people didnt even know how to play, just (re)joined into raiding when chrono was the carry bot. Nothing to get mad about, new people didnt know they are getting carried, they tought raids are that easy...

At the good old carry chrono days, an average of 250li group could do a normal clear on W1-4, now as i see even people who ask for 500+(and actually people with 500+ join) wipe on VG or Sloth. Really sad to say the least

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Yes, I've also noticed COMMUNICATION decreased drastically in PUG.
Or people it's complete silence or when you ask for some particular thing (even the fundamentals) :"Can you take this skill ?" "War, can you please take banners ?" "Pls don't put flux bomb on boss", "soulbeast pls take frost spirit" people (Newbies or "regular") play deaf, ragequit or kick.You can't expect people to be at your "level" if you can't explain thing, your build, instance/instabilities's needs, and let people do their kitten in their own corner; same if you can't listen or adapt because it's not your role, not "meta compo" or DPS decrease etc.Chrono/druid or Fb/ren is a good example. If you can't explain you'll give perma quickness + perma fury, stab, healing and have others good utilities; people will stay looking for a chrono, no matter how gauche it can be now. (it was already rare to find a good one)

[Vinceman.4572]

@Excursion.9752 said:What I have found is that there are a lot of people out there that are not used to the fight mechanics of all the different encounters because the druid+chrono combo is not there to carry them anymore.

That's wrong. You can still carry pugs as healer (needn't to be a druid) if ppl know the mechanics. Chrono wasn't and isn't a thing in usual T4 pugs. Most of them were awful anyways as good chronos were almost only playing with CMs included.I pugged so many different compositions as druid healer in T4s when it was the most common used class. You didn't and still don't need a chrono for a relaxed run but a healer it is. The reason why I stopped playing fracs just was the fact that a lot of ppl aren't any more and we definitely have a decrease in pug quality in combination with new untrained instabilities. If I see an increase of people not knowing the mechanics on certain bosses/encounters/puzzles it has nothing to do with instabilities or a chrono.

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:You can't expect people to be at your "level" if you can't explain thing, your build, instance/instabilities's needs, and let people do their kitten in their own corner; same if you can't listen or adapt because it's not your role, not "meta compo" or DPS decrease etc.

In T4 I can expect from people knowing how to play the actual fractal we're into. This has nothing to do with a build or team composition. T4s are were doable with a lot of wild comps thrown together. But if people cannot overcome certain steps even though there is an experienced heal spec inside of a 5 men team there's something heavily wrong with it and you can be sure it's a huge quality issue as 3-4 decent players with fractal knowledge are able to carry 1-2 dead weights without a problem when it comes to the normal case.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

So why do we see so much "No pain no gain" without domi chrono or SpB ? Why sometimes Chrono puts skip portal everywhere and people follow, sometimes chrono doesn't, or inversely people are blind. Why they're still running in circle with superspeed in all platforms at thaumanova ?Somes can't even dodge, like the excuse "we have a healer" "WTF healer you're lame" when a deadbrain player stay in the aoe at Archdiviner, or other bosses.PUG since years are looking for a regular meta comp : (good) chrono druid to carry them and play semi-afk. Even if we wait 30 minutes to have one (the definition of "gain time" apparently)PUG know the way, some strategies, but they rarely adapt because of compo issue or instabilities, they do the lazy way.

Now with chrono nerf and new instabilities, they need to think by themself (If they have noticed)( until people will establish a new babysitting compo, like Ren/FB or Chrono/FB etc)So yes, I prefer some taxing people in chat trying to improve the teamwork or explaining what everybody (?) should already know rather than quiet groups, with wipes and ragequits because visibly somes can't adapt by themself at the situation or they just discover in middle of boss the chrono was not support (or a bad one) or the tempest was heal.

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:So why do we see so much "No pain no gain" without domi chrono or SpB ? Why sometimes Chrono puts skip portal everywhere and people follow, sometimes chrono doesn't, or inversely people are blind. Why they're still running in circle with superspeed in all platforms at thaumanova ?Somes can't even dodge, like the excuse "we have a healer" "kitten healer you're lame" when a deadbrain player stay in the aoe at Archdiviner, or other bosses.PUG since years are looking for a regular meta comp : (good) chrono druid to carry them and play semi-afk. Even if we wait 30 minutes to have one (the definition of "gain time" apparently)PUG know the way, some strategies, but they rarely adapt because of compo issue or instabilities, they do the lazy way.

Now with chrono nerf and new instabilities, they need to think by themself (If they have noticed)( until people will establish a new babysitting compo, like Ren/FB or Chrono/FB etc)So yes, I prefer some taxing people in chat trying to improve the teamwork or explaining what everybody (?) should already know rather than quiet groups, with wipes and ragequits because visibly somes can't adapt by themself at the situation or they just discover in middle of boss the chrono was not support (or a bad one) or the tempest was heal.

Because people don't care. I myself have joined countless T4 groups with and without requirements over the years and I haven't looked everytime which instabilities are present after their introduction. If I have been on my main, I swapped to Spb most likely but not in 100% of all my runs. People have and will be playing T4s without having to look at certain hurdles. For a long time T4s were the "dungeons" for WvW players and there wasn't (still isn't) any need of changing to PvE stats or builds.You want to speed up things in T4 groups because or while you're playing chrono? Do so, nobody will stop you that's the positive side of a T4 group without requirement: You can choose what you want to play and it is/was fine you'll get the bosses down with brute force no matter what. But what you can't expect is to come from CMs or having learned from a very good chrono and random pugs that want their daily fun in instanced content to know every portal skip, react to portals immediately etc. Especially not in short fractals like Aetherblade or Cliffside where it really doesn't matter for a "without requirement" pug if you are 1-2 min. faster. And no, competent pugs don't lose 5 or more minutes per fractal if they don't have access to portal, alacrity or quickness. All that has nothing to do with not playing properly or bad adaptation.

People choose to play the game like this and everyone of us has to respect that. If you are not willing to do so there is only one thing you have to follow: Join the adequate lfg that suits best for you.

And I repeat my statement: T4 pugs weren't carried by chronos over the years. The more important thing is and was the healer just due to the fact that decent to good chronos were almost never present in usual T4 groups. Most of the chronos that are playing T4s and Recs weren't even able to distort things when it was possible, didn't/don't know when to set group blocks. Even now they don't play the appropriate wells, swapping elite or other utility, not to speak about weapon swap.

All in all this is why I sometimes get very salty when a self-called "pro-player" enters the group and want to tell to the others how to play the game. Just don't join casual T4s with an attitude of perfection. The people there most likely don't look after that. They want to enjoy their free time and not working & focussing on efficiency.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:So why do we see so much "No pain no gain" without domi chrono or SpB ?

Because we have necromancers, you know...the primary boon hate profession.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

I was/am chrono main. Fact is that 99cm + T4 was waaaaay faster then just T4 (and I was playing chrono in both). Tgere is an enormous diference in skill. I havent played fractals for some time but it was completely common that I was best dps as a support chrono (at that time chaos) with ~8k dps in T4. So no, there is not 1-2 minute diference in T4 but 5 if I am generous.Right now I strated doing fractals again but as support renegade instead of chrono and it opened my eyes how bad t4 players actualy are because they went from 6k to 4k, they dont get blocks so they are constantly downed and they would get heals if they actualy meeled and ATACKED the boss.Usualy those players that run random comp are not that skilled because most skilled players want to actualy finish fast. And the sum of skikled players and good comp make enormous diference.

And just for laughsYesterday i got a comment from weaver: "i dont like playing with alacrity because then I lose the sence of speed"

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:So why do we see so much "No pain no gain" without domi chrono or SpB ?

Because we have necromancers, you know...the primary boon hate profession.

Yes we all know how necro were well accepted in fractals.

[Incurve Giidis.7829]

Tldr chrono got cucked, new frac features the biggest CC - untelegraphed mob attack spam you can imagine, new instabs suck.

The lack of stability hurts the most, it really made me hate t4's

[Hot Boy.7138]

I don't do fractals, but I imagine if suddenly you are getting a lot of bad players in your group, it could mean an influx of new players. And that's a good thing. So be patient and teach them.

[phs.6089]

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:So why do we see so much "No pain no gain" without domi chrono or SpB ?

Because we have necromancers, you know...the primary boon hate profession.

Yes we all know how necro were well accepted in fractals.

I specifiaclly play necro in fractals, reaper for dps and healing scourge for when things go bad. In both cases i hate on boons as far as Im not in CD. I have yet to see anyone telling 'no necro'.In fact people beg now for necro. In any fracs with any instabilities, slap barrier necro to party with druid/fb/rev and see how your dps juts cheeses any content there is

[Zenith.7301]

@phs.6089 said:

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:So why do we see so much "No pain no gain" without domi chrono or SpB ?

Because we have necromancers, you know...the primary boon hate profession.

Yes we all know how necro were well accepted in fractals.

I specifiaclly play necro in fractals, reaper for dps and healing scourge for when things go bad. In both cases i hate on boons as far as Im not in CD. I have yet to see anyone telling 'no necro'.In fact people beg now for necro. In any fracs with any instabilities, slap barrier necro to party with druid/fb/rev and see how your dps juts cheeses any content there is

To be fair, you slap a guardian with stability+aegis (DH f3 is criminally underused) and most DPS can cheese any encounter anyways.

[Salicia.5943]

Raids I rarely see much of an issue with player builds it's mostly gameplay/common sense that they lack. For example on Cairn nowadays it's "Agony don't stand on arrow" they fail that. "Stand on any marker besides arrow stay close to the boss" and they're out in Narnia. I once joined a KC on an alt DH forgetting I had a soldier earring equipped still and the meta changed and now Chronos run naked so I ended up tanking, I got instakicked which I thought was harsh I could have just taken the earring off and we could try again. The community as a whole from wvw and pvp also try to pug raids as well once in awhile with it not being in their focus to learn the bosses but still have KP. Trailblazer scourge on VG is not very good. If paired with strong power dps it's not that bad. Also the "Ping gear" lately is annoying. Most players are doing raids as the goal to get currency for ascended gear so kicking a player for exotics before you see their dps is not good for the community. There's a video on youtube somewhere of a guy and his guildies in full exotics killing VG.

Fractal pugs are the reason why I made my static group. We still run the "old" comp Chrono Druid Banner 2 DPS because the new instabilities are sometimes rough (Anet we bleed fire really? 6k*4 dmg). Once in awhile when someone is absent we are forced to pug if I can't find a friend to tag along. Pugs are a nightmare, running shitty builds and trying to get a carry for the daily and CM's. Few days ago I pugged regular t4's on an alt where there were 2 druids, 1 hybrid scourge on Sirens Reef nothing died and they failed to hot potato after me explaining (I left). Another where on Volcanic when I was running Druid with a staff ele attacking from range (no might no heals from me). I've resorted to recruiting on the LFG with "CM t4 recs exp LF pwr dps don't be ass". GRANTED.... the last pug I got was a hybrid condi power mirage - he entered the instance as a mirage with a condi signet on, I asked if he was power he said yes then I pinged his signet and he took it off. Okay. Now we still entered 100cm with this guy with no pots on a power mirage with a 50/50 shot that he would blow us away with a build we've never seen before. First phase Skorvald after the "big bursts" he pulled 3k dps we /gg'd and I kicked him. He clearly wasn't what I had asked for and my party I had every right to remove him.

I feel that if players cared more about their builds and how they worked with other players builds fractal pugs would not be so bad. The meta is designed to do just that. There's no shame in running other builds like support scourge or healing ele in a casual fractal but that means there will be no might for your team unless you find a way to cover it. Like a PS war w/ strength runes and the might shout. Your average player doing the daily fractals most likely has only a few builds available with agony so they come on whatever character they enjoy and t4's recs take about 1 hr 30m+. For me that is way too much time for daily fractals.

PS: Supp Chrono is not dead. I run with one everyday you just need to stand in wells and the skips are amazing in Aetherblade, Cliffside, Molten Boss. If there ever comes a day our Chrono is absent I'm pretty sure my entire group would vote to skip. Amazing Chronos are hard to find and even rarer are ones that want to improve their gameplay (actually hard to find anyone who wants to improve).

[Henry.5713]

PuG players have always been rather hit and miss. Neither Fractal Champion nor even Fractal God titles are an always certain indication on what you may expect. The chances of you meeting someone completely terrible owning said titles are far lower than usual but it still happens. They may have done Fractals many, many times before but it may not have been at the level you expect. "T4s only" group players usually play at a lower level than those who do CMs daily and even more so if they tend to skip days with certain instabilities they "hate".Additionally, rather big META changes are never kind to PuGs. Everyone got used to the old Chrono/Druid combo which has certainly been the "PuG Meta". The new META consisting of very little support won't work for them and many have yet to fully realize that they need to play either FB or Renegade as Harrier or even better both if they expect the same level of babysitting as before. A new PuG Meta will take some time to be figured out again.

Not to mention that many have gained their titles or legendary sets at this point. Quite a few people I know are going on an extended hiatus as they are now in the need of a serious break from scheduled content. New players are taking their places which might indeed lead to lower overall performances from PuGs. Don't think it is that much worse than before but then I am not pugging content too often anymore.

[lare.5129]

few day ago I as in common cms+t4 250kp party(fb+ren, pDps, meta warr). Join, link, start..We do cm100 and cm99, like always, wihtout any panic.ok, cms done, t4 next, swapland, orb collected, uncle Mossman die asap and we near last boss. At 50% pt die.What was that? ou, less hp, bleeds and vindicators.. we start again, and again fail, and again. Whut?? some issues with fb+rene ? ok, relog as chrno, fb as druid. Start ... and wipe. And again wipe, and again. People leave, no party.

Ok, it sad, but t4 still incomplete .. tryig find party .. ou, see "t4 welcome everyone" join.What I see? 2 reapers, 1 scrourge, soulbeast. Sipmle midl range food, simple pots, no fractal champs and gods, no titles, no any vision of meta. OK, lets try. Same swapland, same fractal number, same last boss.First try .. and completed ?!!?! on first try?! and without any smell of critical issue.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@"lare.5129" said:few day ago I as in common cms+t4 250kp party(fb+ren, pDps, meta warr). Join, link, start..We do cm100 and cm99, like always, wihtout any panic.ok, cms done, t4 next, swapland, orb collected, uncle Mossman die asap and we near last boss. At 50% pt die.What was that? ou, less hp, bleeds and vindicators.. we start again, and again fail, and again. Whut?? some issues with fb+rene ? ok, relog as chrno, fb as druid. Start ... and wipe. And again wipe, and again. People leave, no party.

Ok, it sad, but t4 still incomplete .. tryig find party .. ou, see "t4 welcome everyone" join.What I see? 2 reapers, 1 scrourge, soulbeast. Sipmle midl range food, simple pots, no fractal champs and gods, no titles, no any vision of meta. OK, lets try. Same swapland, same fractal number, same last boss.First try .. and completed ?!!?! on first try?! and without any smell of critical issue.

Only reasons your cm party might fail area) unfamiliarity with new instabilitiesb) not focusing/sleeping

My experiance is quite the opposite. Recently i started doing fractals again and i switched 6 parties and spend 4 hours to finish T4s. The last party was metacomp and we did all t4s and recomendeds in less then 40 minutes but the other 5 were not able to get past subject 9/ final boss of siren